How to use the Tormach Tension Compression Tapping Head

[@GregsGarage]

I would love to see a video on tapping small diameter holes... 2mm, 3mm, #6, #8. I've been messing with these for awhile and I still break more taps than I'd like. I'm using some blind holes and some through holes.

[@mehmettemel8725]

Especially in stainless steel.

[@jarvis_asimov]

Good video, learned a bunch from you guys so far :) Though even if you’re using a tension compression head, the head should barely move in and out. The head is primarily there to take up the slack while reversing the spindle and minor differences between rpm and feedrate. The feedrate should be rpm x pitch of the thread. In your case the rpm and feed differ too much, hence the massive travel of the tapping head. Greetings from an austrian engineer and cnc machinist.

[@jr540123]

Was gonna comment just that. Its there for minor differences and should be used that way. Is how we do it at work.

[@lvengineerable]

My post goes by the diameter of the tap rather than thread pitch when calculating the feed rate for some reason. I wonder if that's what their post is doing too.

[@MrNicklinux]

Just what I needed ! Thanks guys ! I had my compression tool for months and without any instructions or videos from Tormach it was hard to figure out. Now I can happily use my tapping head reliably.

[@whatever1663]

You can also get Fusion to post a P0. without changing the post processor by changing the dwell time to .0001

[@automan1223]

Great stuff junior, I did learn a lot but here is your REAL problem. The RPM is way off... In the Tormach manual it has a section about getting a photo tach and measuring the actual speed of the spindle. There is a potentiometer on the control board you can tweak to get the rpm to actual=requested. Only in threading does this amount of accuracy matter. Of course on the MX with an encoder on the spindle this problem is moot, but in pre MX models... The extra travel you are seeing in the quill movement at the tap head is because the rpm is a lot faster than the 525 rpm !! I m guessing its better to have the rpm - tap speed faster than the Z axis moves so it does not get tight... however.... Get a photo tach, follow the procedure and save your P codes for fine tuning... In closing know John IS NOT a fan of Blasser 735 But... ratio mix on the heavy side, in aluminum it works better than taping fluid in my opinion. Taping fluid, and other oils may attack the paint and cause some paint failures we are seeing...Tormach 1100M owner... HAAS also has a great tapping video that I highly recommend as required viewing. Mark Terryberry goes into the different types of taps, and it is possible a less pointy type tap or spiral type may give you better thread finish..

[@clubdjmarcus]

wanted to post the exact same thing... in my job we don't use cad/cam for most jobs but I know most machines need a 2 to 5% increase in feed to match the correct feedrate. even our oldest cnc machine from the eighties has a separate knob just for the G84 cycle to offset the feedrate up to + or -10% for just that reason. It is however the most accurate and needs no adjustment.

[@loupitou06fl]

Hi Jonathan, could you share your feed/speeds on your 1100M for 1/4-20 tap ? I just broke 2 taps....

[@automan1223]

@@loupitou06fl in what material ?

[@loupitou06fl]

@@automan1223 In 6061 aluminum

[@automan1223]

@@loupitou06fl just looked up my tooling plate I did out of 1/2 " using 1/4 20 tap prob over a hundred holes... I settled on 500 rpm. Standard tapping cycle. no dwell. Blasser 735 @10% probably a bit more. Did set the clutch on the clutch to slip if it got tight so it would not break the tap. I did a bunch of test holes to creep up on the clutch setting. I also may have drilled to the larger part of the spec so the hole was not tight but honestly cannot remember. Thread milling is also very very cool. NYC CNC has a few good videos on thread milling. Cutters are pricy but work flawlessly.

[@erikjgreen]

Any chance of you guys commenting on the changes to the Fusion 360 license announced recently? Seems like anyone not an entry level hobbyist and not a business with income enough to afford a commercial license is out in the cold now.

[@themechanix393]

I'd second that question :)

[@piccilos]

Did they raise it above the ~$300/yr? Nm, just read it. The no rapids won't hurt tormach people that bad, but having to load another program for every tool change is ridiculous

[@MysticalDork]

Not to mention not being able to export .step files. Those are the bread and butter of the cad/cam world!

[@ikbendusan]

@@piccilos pretty sure that's automatic tool changes specifically; manual tool changes are still possible in the same program ... right?

[@piccilos]

@@ikbendusan I hope so. I don't know how they would limit that in the g-code, tool change is handled by the controller. Worst case scenario you could still splice the code together by hand and call your own tool changes. Still annoying though.

[@sylvainforget2174]

When I was in school we were told to program for 95% of pitch when programming for a push-pull floating holder. I was never really told why that is, but always followed that rule until I worked on a machine with rigid tapping and a rigid holder. I also never pushed the speed much because I actually never milled soft metals much.

[@CEMBerthoud]

Interesting... I'll have to setup some experiments of my own and see what kind of results I get. I tap 100's of holes in 304ss with my Tormach 1100 series 3 . I've found the biggest issue with thread quality and having the tap rub at the top of the hole has to do with feed height, I set my feed height no lower than .50" giving the head plenty of time to retract out of the hole at the specified feed rate. I also program a .5 second dwell in fusion. I run 500 rpm max in stainless and use Moly-Dee or similar heavy tapping oil. The biggest problem I have is controlling thread depth accurately in blind holes.

[@gavinbutler4054]

I’m getting ready to tap some holes in some 304 .4 deep, what should I set my bottom height to? I don’t mind only tapping .2 deep if I can finish tapping by hand safely

[@CEMBerthoud]

@@gavinbutler4054 That sounds like a safe way to do it, I usually leave about .150" between the bottom of the hole and the programmed tap depth for the floating tap head.

[@MF175mp]

First time I tried one on a deep hole the spindle reversed too fast and pushed the compression side close and broke the tap. I need the dwell there.

[@jacksonsmith4648]

Care to discuss Fusion alternatives now that Autodesk has decided to screw over home gamers? I imagine this hits the average Tormach user the hardest, since there’s no more rapids, no more tool changes, and no more multi-axis support. Being one of the best-known spokesmen for Fusion, I was hoping you’d have some answers.

[@OU81TWO]

Screw home gamers?? Why do you feel screwed? Autodesk allowed you to use their software for years for free and they invested millions to develope it. Now they start charging a fee and you somehow feel cheated?? Entitled much?... Edit: I just looked at the subscription fee and if you take it for 3 years it's like $30/mo. You easily make that back by making some parts for people. You really don't have much to complain about.

[@automan1223]

it costs money to pay programmers and keep the lights on. How about supporting the platform, buy a 3 years subscription (on sale now) , lock in a good price. If ENOUGH of you guys did this, they could lower the price even more and or add more functions that everyone wants. Free only works for so long. Look at Brazil, Venezuela for a few examples how well it works.

[@Sketch1994]

@@OU81TWO That's the problem...Fusion isn't the million dollar platform Autodesk should be rolling out. It was a foot in the door trick right from the start. They just wanted to lure a big user share with sub par software. Don't get me wrong, it got a lot of people into CNC machining but for job shop use it is really underpowered, sluggish and the cloud bs and constant updates reverting and changing my settings it's a dealbreaker.

[@ikbendusan]

@@automan1223 > implying they'd decrease the price if more people bought it lol

[@FragBenitez]

@@ikbendusan exactly lol wtf does he think Autodesk would do that

[@AALarocca]

Excellent vídeo!! i learned a lot. Thank you

[@capnthepeafarmer]

What's that add-on to get visual studio to highlight the CNC code? When I open in visual studio it doesn't have that drop down on the left.

[@jodyolivent8481]

NC-gcode extension

[@billskeen68]

Great video! Learned a lot! You going to make the Fusion file available?

[@unionse7en]

this can also be done with a loose quill, (no ATC), if doing production a reversing tapping head is very nice, since you the motor does not have to be stopped & reversed every time.

[@fredbloggs4829]

Thanks for this video. Very helpful.

[@pco1984]

In conclusion, you don't wanna P when you're going in the hole...

[@kierangcollins]

Great info as always. Thanks.

[@vladimirushakov9163]

which tapping head and collet would you recommend for a haas Cat 40 taper tool. I'm going to need to buy a tap holder as I'm running a Haas VM-3 on Aluminum and Plasic and specifically will need for stainless. I am currently using ER 32 nd 16 collets but I know i'm going to run into problems when I start running production cycles with the tap slipping as it has already happened to me a few times at 500 rpm.

[@durexyl]

1. How does Fusion calculate Z feed rate if it needs so much compensation from the tapping tool?? Or is there something I've missed? 2. What about starting with moving the tool up before spinning it in reverse? This may help making even better finish on the top thread.

[@MysticalDork]

The lower-end mills like Tormach don't have nearly as good speed control over their spindles compared to other larger, more expensive machines. It's basically an open-loop system where the pro machines use servos and can better match the feed rate and spindle speed under varying load conditions.

[@billgreathouse1913]

Yes, spindle speed is off. As stated earlier, by someone else, the spindle has to be calibrated. The Tormach manual details the process. I have done mine and it is less than 2%. Once the spindle is calibrated, you should use a dwell. The calculation for how much dwell is also in the manual IIRC. If done as discribed in the manual, there is nearly undetectable movement in the tapping head. I had to put a sharp mark on the compression head to see it. Also, use a spiral tap that ejects the chip out of the hole. I run my coolant a touch on the rich side in general and that really helps on the taps. That p value it for calculating the deceleration and acceleration (drift)of the spindle during reversal. If I had video equipment, I'd out up a video. BTW, I've never broken a tap. That said, I've not had to tap a hole larger than #8. Fwiw

[@162010ash]

Am I missing something ? I have similar kennametal tapping heads as well as others and after time they actually get tight because they never move . This seems like a feed rate issue to me . Or is this a tormach issue as I have never ran one .

[@clampplus735]

If you wanted to lightly chamfer the holes , would you do the chamfer before tapping or after tapping?

[@gavinbutler4054]

I would be before tapping. It helps with the tap starting as well

[@robertsimon5798]

It looks like your spindle speed needs to be adjusted. With a matched RPM and feed rate you will not see much if any compression or tension in the tapping head. Tormach discusses how to adjust the spindle speed in the same document that you showed in the video. Currently the spindle is rotating too fast causing the tap to bore down faster than the feed rate.

[@Devin82m]

VERY cool, thanks for sharing!

[@evbunke2]

It seems like the feedrate was really the problem here... The tap should not massively outpace the movement. It seems like F360 doesn't keep feeding as the spindle spins down/spins up, so you get a mismatch.

[@MysticalDork]

That's a problem with the Tormach and its lack of servo control, not a problem with Fusion.

[@evbunke2]

@@MysticalDork sure, that's fair. Maybe Fusion should have an override where you can time how long your spindle takes to spin down, and it could keep feeding for that long. But maybe it's too niche of a problem for them to care.

[@ROBRENZ]

Well done! ATB, Robin

[@CraigHollabaugh]

Excellent, thanks NYC

[@MAV-MFG]

excellent job!

[@sibixis]

Guys please set the heights right... 2 pecks before it touches the material

[@chas1878]

It wasn't really wrong, the clearance height was just set pretty high. The other z variables were pretty much on point

[@sibixis]

@@chas1878 no clamps or other stuff to get into the way why would it ever be above few mm from top surface?

[@chas1878]

@@sibixis It's obvious that it would be more efficient if it were set lower but its not wrong even if its not necessary. This is a one time tapping demonstration.

[@sibixis]

@@chas1878 biggest issue i have is when i employ people they dont even know that stuff like heights can be modified. A video on cycle time reduction would be super nice from big guys like NYC CNC but even in such demo taking 5 sec to edit them would be a nice remark to add

[@chas1878]

@@sibixis since they did go trough the trouble of showing the cam programming of the drill too it would have made sense to set the part up like it was a production part, that I agree on. Could have made the video shorter by just saying "here's a block with x diameter trough holes already prepared for the tormach tapping guide"

[@JarppaGuru]

go in and out. out you can go faster than going in. in can go slower too. just remember come out faster than go in,but not faster than there spring. so whats hard?

[@BavariaCNC]

On the other hand, this only works for this setup. If you have pocket taps your tool will brake, if the hole is deeper your tool will break ;). Also you are using a machine where the costs per hour are not too high so why not stay with the smalles rpm you have you still will get a great tap and don’t run in problems.

[@flyingjeep911]

Your feeds are wrong. 1000rpm 1/4-20 tap should be 50ipm. That’s why there is so much movement in the tapping head. Rpm/TPI is your feed rate.

[@chadw6852]

We use to break taps when we used 100% of the calculated feed rate. I started using 95% (tapmatic recommended) so the tapping head is always in tension & we've not broke a tap since. Using 100% requires your mill to stay in perfect sync with the tap. Our problem is the mill would get ahead of the tap, causing the tap to be jammed up into the holder & shatter the tap. Be aware that if you use a percentage of the feed, your tap is growing downward. Which means nothing for thru holes but could cause you to bottom in a blind hole if not accounted for.

[@clubdjmarcus]

@@chadw6852 the 100% value would work if the actual RPM matches the selected RPM, most machines however always go slightly faster/slower than selected. When not tapping deep that's no problem, but when tapping either deep or blind you could run into issues. Therefore check the ACTUAL RPM with a tachometer, my experience on the machines in our shop is that most are running 2 to 5% faster RPM then selected, so we have to increase the feedrate, not slow it down, this may vary from machine to machine and even per gear when a gearbox is used to select spindle RPM.

[@chadw6852]

@@clubdjmarcus our mills are older bridgeport machines so i can't speak to anything made in the last 25 yrs. anyway for yrs we had our tapping feeds set at 100% & our guys did not like running tapping cycles in the mill due to constantly breaking taps. i started doing research on it 2-3 yrs ago & found where tapmatic (95%) & haas (90%) recommend using a percentage of the feed. this ensures the tap is traveling faster in Z than the tapping head. if you run it at 100%, it might work fine on a newer machine but you're asking the machine to be perfect & if it isn't you get the problem we were having. since i've changed to 95% feed i don't get complaints about tapping holes in the mill anymore & to my knowledge we haven't broke a tap in 2 yrs. i should say our tapping head is a tension/compression style head (like what he's showing in this video) & what we're doing works for that head. a different style head may require different settings.

[@clubdjmarcus]

@@chadw6852 the machines i work on now are from the mid eighties, so 35 yrs old (Mecof CS500 and CS103), they still have an old fashioned ribbon reel with holes (though they aren't used anymore, programs are still stored on diskettes) we have the same style tapping heads but with the quick-change heads. Only 1 machine i have ever worked on needed 95% and that was a '96 Korean bed type mill, so again: it really depends on the machine, so if what you do works for your machines, then you solved your problem, but another machine might go the opposite way...

[@jamesdash1906]

More Jonny 5 please !!!!!

[@JM-br9sp]

Dont forget to use brand new taps on brass!

[@piccilos]

Thanks!

[@chadw6852]

Can't believe the software doesn't give you the option of setting the dwell to 0. Which I don't know why you would ever want a dwell on a tapping cycle. You would've thought the PP would've been set to 0 by default.

[@shronn4135]

Because the spindle takes a nonzero amount of time to stop, and reverse.

[@jarisipilainen3875]

why cam? you can do all those one line drill cycle. and that PAUSE is tormach problem.it means you code it make shallow hole it wil go deeper becouse it breaks slower. right ops ops. it wont do rigid tapping. thats why lol

[@JM-br9sp]

those work better on lathes, mill tap holders only have tension one way

[@JM-br9sp]

great tip! just a little play is all u need!

[@fishingmasterawesome]

Mr. west, I have a question for you

[@methujeraya]

why am I watching this as I have some development to do on the as400? hahaha

[@shoaibmalik8292]

BIG LIKE

[@chrischtea]

that was a lot of ads this time....

[@kosmoscol]

Нет фасок в отверстии под резьбу,это не комильфо.

[@loupitou06fl]

Humm, just broke 2 brand new taps, must be doing something wrong.

[@jonnyphenomenon]

That's freaking tedious... How many times do you have to add P0?

[@akronimm862]

People need to be careful with these tapping heads. They are janky as all hell

[@FreedomFactory3D]

Auto desk fucked its free users', time to move to another cad design software like Onshape ......

[@ryanjordan7113]

This is not relevant. Unless you are making a million parts. Time saved is worthless. Let’s try again with somthing of sustenances. Please. Just rigide tap and be done. You can do it manually with a cnc setting your down feed. Not that hard.

[@Aumtechinnovation]

hi, bacteria breeds on the tramp oil and book and crannies, ours is a redox system which is a system incorporating multimedia metals and once the coolant passes through it the bacteria and fungi are 100% eliminated and the killing process just goes on forever, you just have to add good water for topping up and concentrates to maintain the concentration, if not inconvenient send me your email address I would send you the details of the system.