The Campus Protesters Explain Themselves

This episode contains explicit language.
Over recent months, protests over the war in Gaza have rocked college campuses across the United States.
As students graduate and go home for the summer, three joined “The Daily” to discuss why they got involved, what they wanted to say and how they ended up facing off against each other.
Guests:
• Mustafa Yowell, a student at the University of Texas at Austin
• Elisha Baker, a student at Columbia University
• Jasmine Jolly, a student at Cal Poly Humboldt
Background reading:
• Pro-Palestinian student activists say their movement is anti-Zionist but not antisemitic. It is not a distinction that everyone accepts (www.nytimes.com/2024/04/29/ny...) .
• The Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Columbia University passed a resolution (www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/ny...) of no confidence in the university’s president, Nemat Shafik.
For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily (nytimes.com/thedaily?smid=pc-t...) . Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

[@tedtalksrock]

That last girl is the poster child for “Pet Chickens for KFC!” Gotta hand it to her for her efforts to keep her ignorance pristine and untouched. “I will not go to Israel or learn anything about the other side…”

[@ericcampbell503]

Bro, what? She's Jewish, it's her side.

[@brookiegremlin6660]

pure emotion, no logic

[@ericcampbell503]

@@brookiegremlin6660 [eyeroll] I'll take emotional humanity over fake logical inhumanity any day.

[@TheLoving06]

No one cares what they have to say & cry about.

[@user-hv7rq5zn3x]

Send all the pro-Palestinian students to study at the "You don't have to think logically" academy in Gaza now!!!

[@tnndll4294]

After Oct 7th, we know they are really pro-Hamas/pro-terror demonstrations. They had us believe they were like Martin Luther King or Ghandi before Oct. 7th.

[@Pacifico457]

There are no colleges left in Gaza. They have more morals than Israelis

[@Catoo.]

Really! the once that Israel bombed to ground?

[@thelurker12]

pretty breathtaking listening to her pause and slowly try to justify using the word intifada in her protests as a Jewish person. Give her respect for being honest though.

[@evelynnapier8994]

Agree. She admits that the chants and words she used are very triggering and have antisemitic meanings to the people in the country she was protesting against. How could she possibly think ‘Intifada’ would be inspiring or change-positive in an anti-Israel protest? In listening to her, I feel she understands that she was chanting for the end of the Israel state and thinks annihilating the most democratic and country in the Middle East that values human rights and is an alley to Western values would be a good thing. I disagree with her.

[@lonecandle5786]

In the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, intifada means violence against Israeli Jews because we had two movements called the first and second intifada that involved violence against Israeli Jews. Those historical events with the names Intifada makes the meaning of the word in this conflict and what it means to call for intifada. If one is not ignorant of this basic history, why would you ever call for intifada unless you are calling for violence? When one calls for intifada in this context, you are either calling for violence, ignorant of basic history that you are chanting about, or for some reason are refusing to take the history into account and using the word anyways--basically trolling or just loving violent words because alluding to terrorist violence is inspiring and makes people feel that they are capable of change. If you find alluding to terrorist violence inspiring, you really got to question the nature of your movement.

[@norman_5623]

Search for "Debbie Almontaser intifada" to see how an unethical Murdoch newspaper (the New York Post) distorted the meaning of "intifada" in a racist, false, anti-Muslim attack on a school principal who had dedicated her life to education and to working together with Jews. Tell me, when Benjamin Netanyahu talks about "Amalek", he means the extermination of the Palestinians, doesn't he?

[@Sam-jz6sz]

Kind of interesting how you can see how people formed their biases by where they learned their information on the conflict. The last protestor being the most cringe of course.

[@dovbrenner6737]

Very telling that the most eloquent and thoughtful interviewee (Elisha Baker) has read numerous books from noted academics, whereas the others had a more anecdotal and oral-history approach to their biases.

[@brookiegremlin6660]

her whole argument was based on how she felt when she saw something, how she felt when she heard something, how she felt, how she felt, how she felt.

[@shaulgordonzeani]

Mustafas definition of zionism gives me the terrible impression that he hasn't bothered to read any of the arguments against his position

[@chasdawes7541]

Well done, all y'all.

[@LukeOfEarl]

This is such crap

[@AlohomoraD]

I feel interfaith families tend to have a unique perspective on the situation - thank you for showcasing her voice

[@Rnankn]

Can it just be about preventing genocide, no matter who the victims may be? The disagreements will remain complex, which is why defending victims does not entail an immediate opposition to the entire cause of alleged perpetrators. At this moment, it is Palestinians - as a group - who are at risk. We should all be able to agree that if it was you and your family who were being killed, you would want people in the world to use whatever means they have to defend your right to stay alive. At minimum you would hope other people would not supply the weapons that make it possible.

[@Gmo401]

It's great to hear you care so much about genocide! If more people like you were around for the past couple thousand years, maybe Jews would never have felt the need to create Israel.

[@thomcolmer6564]

Palestinians brought this upon themselves. They elected Hamas, they support Hamas. To this day, they still cover for Hamas.

[@vikingraider712]

The weapons are to defend against military groups from attacking Israel too not just defeat hamas who hides behind the babies of Palestine

[@nonamell2009]

The thing about genocide- Hamas declared they want to commit genocide and will attempt it again, whenever they can What is happening in Gaza & Israel is truly horrible. And, If what is happening in Gaza we’re truly genocide, do you think the death toll would be 15k? (Yes, 15k and not the 30k Hamas health service claimed and U.N. parroted) Really, think about it. And, how many of those 15k were Hamas fighters? In WWII 5 million Germans were killed -no one accused the Allies of genocide. Why not? Because it wasn’t calculated, orchestrated, systematic extermination like that of the German death camps. Again, to be clear/ this is a horrible situation but Hamas is not a victim. They’re losing a war they started.

[@kateoneal4215]

Yes, Rnankn. The ongoing genocide started 76 years ago. Hamas was an elected government to help the Palestinians. There are at least a dozen other resistance organizations as well. I see many people here are still ignorant on the subject. They would know about the Nakba if they were acting in good faith. To them, this is a game.

[@susanmcclellan1773]

There is no excuse for them......

[@hakanaktas9341]

I wish you didn’t change the music.

[@ili626]

I’m enjoying the change

[@evelynnapier8994]

Thank you for letting us hear diverse viewpoints of the protestors dirctly. I thought the interview questions were thoughtful and upfront. I do not relate to Jasmine’s claim that her Jewish heritage is relatable to Palestine. The murder of 6,000,000 million Jews from several European countries in the Holocaust does not equate to civilian casualties of war that are started by Hamas that broke a cease fire, murdered 1200 people, took 100+ hostages and continues to hold hostages and sacrifices it’s own innocent civilians by using them as shield by operating underneath hospitals and schools. I cannot understand why Americans are protesting Israel over Hamas, a country that doesn’t support women and murders its citizens for being gay. Israel is the most democratic country in the Middle East and provides sanctuary for gay Palestinians who would be killed under Hamas. Of course Jasmine is not going to understand her grandfather’s experience, because she lives in America and hasn’t experienced the horrors and severe oppression in other countries. And if the first time she has ever witnessed war pictures and testimonials is from the people of Palestine, then I understand her desire to “loudly use her voice”. But the human suffering in this world from oppressive and tyrannical governments is out there and I support those who protest against those governments.

[@ericcampbell503]

Quite the cop out right there at the end.

[@keyfiender799]

🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[@kateoneal4215]

NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY FOR OPPOSING GENOCIDE.

[@williamculbertson3066]

Protesting Peacefully is fine, but Restricting Freedom of Movement is Not!!!!! Nor is Assaulting Hundreds of Jewish & Israeli Students and Harassing tens of thousands of Jewish & Israeli Students!!!!!

[@norman_5623]

If that were true, it wouldn't be fine, but it's not true. Where are you getting your information from? If you read the Columbia Spectator, for first-hand accounts from a school with a leading journalism school, and look up for example the no-confidence resolution against President Shafik, passed by the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, you'd have eyewitness testimony by professors that the Columbia students weren't restricting movement, or assaulting Jewish or Israeli students. The only Jewish students being assaulted were members of Jewish Voice for Peace, who were assaulted by self-described "pro-Israel" demonstrators, particularly in UCLA.

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

FACT: Gazans chose Hamas in free elections and have cooperated with, and continue to cooperate with the terrorist organization. They also helped with the kidnappings and the massacres.

[@williamculbertson3066]

@@user-sp1md5xu8j in 2006 when most of them weren't alive and for sure tens of thousands have deliberately helped Hamas, but I don't consider all of the over 2 million gazans to be guilty...

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

@@williamculbertson3066 First of all, these are incorrect and falsified numbers, there aren't 2 million, there are much fewer. You won't find any verified statistics on these numbers other than guesses, because there are no records like in a normal democratic country. There are intentional forgeries to perpetuate the narrative. Just like there isn't really the amount of deaths they mentioned (you are invited to see the UN’s correction of 50% fewer deaths than what was initially reported). Secondly, you are not familiar with their ideology, unfortunately, to the misfortune of the whole world. The idea and ideology of Hamas could be under other names such as the Palestinian Authority or Fatah. You are invited to watch the interviews conducted with them over the years both in Gaza and in Judea and Samaria, they openly declare that they want to throw the Jews into the sea. Write on KZbin what Palestinians think in Judea and Samaria or Gaza, something like that, it's a street interview channel.

[@norman_5623]

You can read first-hand accounts, by students and faculty, pro-Israel and pro-Palestine, of the Columbia protests in the Columbia Spectator. You will see that they were not restricting freedom of movement, or assaulting or harassing Jewish or Israeli students. According to some of the professors, the protesters weren't even breaking Columbia rules or the law. In contrast, at UCLA, Jerry Seinfeld's wife raised $100,000 for a gang of pro-Israel thugs who attacked the peaceful protesters with clubs and other weapons, as you can see on videos of the event.

[@kahlilbt]

Overall, I appreciated these three perspectives, if for no other reason than I understood some of these perspectives in play better

[@WhataMensch]

“Americans don't want to know and many Israelis don't want to know what is going on inside Palestine. It's a terrible human rights persecution that far transcends what any outsider would imagine, and there are powerful political forces in America that prevent any objective analysis.” “I would say that in many ways the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli occupying forces is as onerous - and in some cases more onerous - as the treatment of black people in South Africa by the apartheid government” “The word apartheid is exactly accurate... So within Palestinian territory they are absolutely and totally separated, much worse than they were in South Africa by the way.” -Jimmy Carter 🍉

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

FACT: Gazans chose Hamas in free elections and have cooperated with, and continue to cooperate with the terrorist organization. They also helped with the kidnappings and the massacres.

[@catherinemcateer4362]

Fact: Palestinians have been living as refugees in what was once their lands until Western Alliance decided to create the state of Israel after the Holocaust and WWII. FACT: Arabs and Jews were living comfortably side by side for hundreds of years prior to this creation. Fact: Israel backed by the USA with their weapons and bombs are now looking to remove all Palestinians from Gaza, it's a land grab people.

[@norman_5623]

@@user-sp1md5xu8j FYI, in those elections, Netanyahu helped Hamas, because he thought that it would weaken the Palestinian government to be split between Hamas in Gaza and the PLO in the West Bank. Netanyahu got Qatar to send several million dollars to Hamas. They haven't had another election since 2006. (BTW saying that something is a fact doesn't make it so.)

[@thomcolmer6564]

@@norman_5623oh, so Hamas is not at fault in any way and all blame goes to Netanyahu and Israel?

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

@@norman_5623 You always blame Israel in your choices, it's something routine. The ideology in Gaza has always been the same as that of Hamas. The Palestinian Authority shares the same ideology, but it was subordinate to Israel and therefore could not fully implement its ideology. There are videos that you can find yourself showing them training for massacres like the one on October 7th. So it doesn't matter if it's Hamas or another organization; ideology is ideology.

[@norman_5623]

I respect all of your subjects, and I'm glad that they were honest about their feelings, but I'm puzzled by Elisha Baker saying that the Jewish Voice for Peace uses "anti-semitic and violent rhetoric, celebrating the murder of Israelis and Jews." I'm a member of JVP, and I've never heard that kind of rhetoric. You have to realize that anyone can join a public demonstration, and a few lunatics on the fringes don't represent most people there. The JVP seder on the Columbia lawn would have been a good place to strike up a conversation. I joined JVP after I saw Izzeldin Abuelaish, the Gaza doctor, on Israeli TV after his 3 daughters and a niece had been killed in an Israeli shelling of his home. I grew up with people asking, "How could the world stand by silently when so many Jews were being killed?" How can I stand by silently when it happens to Palestinians? How can you?

[@bryanmurray9846]

What a moving and insightful post. Thank you!

[@pottyputter05]

By knowing that without the dome, they would have killed so many more jews than the small amount of "civilians" killed in gaza.

[@nonamell2009]

Interestingly the world is silent about the slaughter, rape & kidnapping of Israeli civilians. We should not be silent about the death of Israelis nor gazans. That said, if you haven’t seen the antisemitic rhetoric of JVP (which doesn’t really have (m)any Jews) you just need to open your eyes it’s blatant in everything they say.

[@annadanish]

@norman_5623 How can you stand silently when 128 people are still held there, including a child who was just 9 months old when he was kidnapped? Including young women (and actually men too) - probably some of them your age - who are being held as sex slaves for 7+ months? Why are you empathizing only with one side and are not demanding the immediate release of all hostages (including dead ones)? Again - how can you stand by knowing about those people?

[@mcpowers26]

Your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance is disgusting. Your organization has been proven to be problematic repeatedly for multiple reasons. Playing dumb is just making you look bad, kapo.

[@redthepost]

This makes me sick to my stomach. A two state solution? I doubt it.

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

NEVER

[@ericcampbell503]

It has to be a one-state solution, like what happened in South Africa. One country with everyone represented equally.

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

@@ericcampbell503 Live in your country with the Taliban if you want, and don't force them on the Jews.

[@tonyclifton8102]

"Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.”

[@sydneyc9770]

Excellent presentation of three young student voices, one Palestinian, one pro-Palestinian Jew and one apparently Zionist Jew. Bravo biased NY Times for a multi-dimensional story. Difficult to believe the second young man had actually read all those books by Said and Khalidi when I didn't hear him discuss the suffering of the Palestinians inflicted by Israel. I can certainly understand him feeling that the protests beginning so soon after October 7 were insensitive to the terrible war crimes/crimes against humanity committed by Hamas. However, history did not begin on October 7th nor even in 1987 with the First Intifada, which btw, though not entirely peaceful, did not employ suicide bombings. Those began with the Second Intifada around 2000, when the Camp David Summit failed to establish a Palestinian state, ending the Oslo process. "Intifada" means uprising or resistance. Do not the Palestinians have a right to resist their oppression? I do not condone terrorism, but do you honestly think that life was a bowl full of cherries in the Occupied Territories, and it was nothing but the sheer evil of Palestinians that has motivated their violence against Israel? I do not condone states-sponsored terrorism either, and I never hear it discussed in mainstream media. I recommend listening to the amazing Amira Haas on Democracy Now today, after addressing Columbia Journalism School yesterday. A Jewish journalist for Ha'aretz, she has lived in Gaza for years and is the daughter of Holocaust survivors. She often talks about how not all survivors, including her parents, were Zionists who supported Israel's oppression of the Palestinians, and how the Israeli government has always tried to shut them up.

[@hagaycohen866]

So when in your opinion did it start?

[@kahlilbt]

I also found his reading list... Convenient lol. I hope he has read them as an adult, not as a teen like he implied. I remember swallowing books in high school and thinking i understood complex issues, only to be disabused of that later...

[@ili626]

@@hagaycohen866 Many would say 1948

[@yisaleyderleydery9915]

As a liberal semi leftist from Israel, allow me to applause this podcast, really, it's delving in to the emotions and beliefs of the perspective of each group in this mess very well. I'll just point out very clearly, as an atheist and liberal, the last one talking, so called Jewish, she is not Jewish! I am deeply discussed by ultra nationalizm and religious fundemetalists that now in Israeli government, but the view she expressed that Israel do not have right to exists is like a view of someone that thinks that a Palestinian state shouldn't exist and call him self Palestinian. This girl, shouting intifada and call her self jewish 😢🤦🏼‍♂️, if it wasn't inferious and depressing it was funny Peace and love to all

[@skidcaesar]

Really appreciate the NYT family of podcasts. 👍👍

[@AbdurahmanKhalil]

"It's definitely complicated" lol 😆

[@rexcandy]

Netanyahu must go first. Distinguish between those prone to violence and those committed to nonviolence. Employ international security organizations to safeguard the nonviolent individuals. Encourage nonviolence by offering the prospect of home ownership within a secure residence. Construct highrise residential buildings, allowing non-violent individuals to obtain clear ownership of their homes. Ownership fosters a shared interest in collective security, where an assault on one is regarded as an attack on all. Establish a condominium association that finances on-site security through membership dues. Develop educational and preschool facilities within the condominium complex to support on-site learning.

[@gogudelagaze1585]

Absolutely, and it's not just Netanyahu on the Israeli side, though he is the lynchpin. And it looks like that's exactly what's going to happen in the next elections. Problem is they're quite a long way away. But it's a manageable problem compared to the Palestinian side, where politics is dominated by extremists (with PA playing a big part of the problem). There's no political entity that advocates for peace, and from what I've heard from talking to Palestinians in the WB, it's a very risky proposition to even suggest a peaceful resolution.

[@AnnStephens196]

I love these young people

[@arnoldwilson5377]

We need more support for Palestinians, not less.

[@user-sp1md5xu8j]

NO

[@mcpowers26]

When will you accept you're the loudly wrong minority and you don't have a clue what's going on? If you responded factually and intelligently instead of emotionally, you'd see you're fighting for the wrong side.

[@Pacifico457]

🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[@mcpowers26]

🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@Pacifico457]

@@mcpowers26 💩💩💩💩💩🐁