The Economic Theory Behind J.D. Vance’s Populism

[@dragoaus]

Chip War was written by Chris Miller, he studied History and works at DC Think-Tank that promotes trade. He has absolutely no idea on how Semiconductors are manufactured. Thus his book Chip War should be taken with grain of salt. Also Taiwan, where most chips are made, is not some 3rd world country where people work for pennies.

[@TheLucanicLord]

That's not what third world means. Is it necessary to have written your own operating system to have valid opinions about the software business?

[@joeykelly5642]

Taiwan heavily subsidizes the semiconductor industry, and the government there pays a large chunk workers’ salaries in order to keep company labor costs low. It’s of enormous strategic importance to keep the US reliant on Taiwanese chips.

[@dragoaus]

@@TheLucanicLord no, but when discussing where and how something is manufactured, having general knowledge about business is not enough. Assumption that personal cost are driving costs of manufacturing of Semi-Conductors is nonsensical, since the manufacturing is highly automatized. In last 30 years, we had plethora of "experts" with 0 knowledge in actual industry explaining why xyz moved overseas, and boilig it down to "cheaper labor", sure this is true for clothes and simple products, but for high-tech products, this is not true.

[@georgek7831]

Salaries in Taiwan are actually ludicrously low by first-world standards, 1k usd is a normal salary for a young college grad in a full-time job

[@dragoaus]

​@@georgek7831this is absolutely not true, especially for people who work in chip manufacturing.

[@sharanyanps]

I rarely ever comment on anything, but I think this is such a needed conversation and I am glad that Ezra reached out across the aisle to a well spoken guest. This was fantastic, would be great to zoom into nuances as follow ups if possible.

[@jannichi6431]

Ezra is Center Right, just in my opinion. So is Biden.

[@mensrea1251]

What makes you say Ezra is “center right”? He seems more center left if anything.

[@robertbraden4454]

What Ezra seems to be missing is the current wafer/chip supply chain is complex because we made it complex by expanding and exporting our supply chain.

[@dfinma]

Let's be specific -- corporate greed and legislative cooperation (read: lobby/PAC influence) enabled manufacturing to be removed from the US.

[@RobbbbM-qk3ei]

Tsmc in Arizona isn’t doing well.

[@testboga5991]

​@@dfinmathat's populist nonsense.

[@TheDavidlloydjones]

@@dfinma By "corporate greed" you mean profit-seeking, do you? I'd ask you what you mean by "enabled," except that it's pretty clear you don't know.

[@SubvertTheState]

People need to understand that the mining practices and methods China now uses to refine rare Earth minerals, were pioneered by Federal Grant money right here in the US. Saying things will be too expensive is just a cop out.

[@bobzelley5100]

Penn state and the Colorado school of mines are among the best in the world and selected in 2021 for the united states rare earth minerals strategic initiative . The government's dod 2023 grant to bring back into operation the king mountain mine was a good move for future generations

[@user-mv2nv6rd9b]

Thank you both for an instructive and civil discourse. It seems to me that both parties will begin a new competition for the centre. A nascent one admittedly. But my feeling is that the competition will soon really catch fire.

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

@@user-mv2nv6rd9b only if they want to sit down together. Trump won’t sit down with anyone. Read his history. He’ll call them names, lie about any subject and no one can accomplish anything in that environment. Fact!

[@singed8853]

Interesting guest and conversation. Never heard of this guest. Enjoyed it.

[@youngmuggzy85]

Best.Fucking.Debate. I’ve heard in years between 2 people who respect each other’s views regardless of how different they are.

[@timlangford8678]

I’m a newcomer to this channel. Great conversation. Hard, thoughtful questions to a thoughtful guest. A new trend that I was aware of, but feel much more informed about now. Great job.

[@ryanandre3556]

Saying that "the climate agenda" is a narrow issue for liberal elites ignores the very clear science that shows we are warming quickly and this warming is a threat to everyone's future prosperity, especially the working class people that this populism is supposed to help. No party has the luxury of ignoring climate change while remaining logically or philosophically consistent with it's aims, even if we're just talking economic aims. This is a big hole in the guest's thinking. He says we need to refocus our support on the part of the economy that actually makes things (like manufacturing), but he ignores the fact that making things relies largely on the functioning of our natural systems - as do many areas of our economy. If you're willing to ignore clear science and take an objectively wrong stance on something like climate change simply because it is "unpopular" then you lack the vision and integrity to govern our country.

[@reneebuffington2014]

Jobs that moved overseas are A DROP IN THE BUCKET compared to what’s been eliminated by automation. These guys kept themselves entertained, but they’re not addressing the most important challenge facing workers.

[@mountbara]

You are 8 years late to the party Ezra. The change has been happening for a long time.

[@jannichi6431]

He plays it safe, for sure.

[@chrisrichardson8988]

We are still cleaning up the George W. Bush era messes. People do not connect the lines of those policies to their lasting problems we see today.

[@CaesarRenasci]

Oh yes. Actually, we are still dealing with mess left by George Washington, although the root of the problem was planted during the fall of the Roman Empire. Who graduated you from high school.?

[@JoanCurbow-uk4si]

I'd go back even further, to Ronald Reagan. His policies were a real sea change for the worst. He did away with the Fairness Doctrine, and he espoused the trickle-down theories that began to erode the middle class. Biden was beginning to turn the boat around and try to restore the middle class.

[@sassysince90]

Even just what no child left behind did

[@testboga5991]

Actually, we're cleaning up Reagan's and Thatcher's mess - and doing a piss poor job at it because we allow those who profited from their failed policies to buy our media and politicians.

[@francis563]

This is a good podcast. I liked the civil discussion between two different camps.

[@pwedza]

complete pipe dream to think that the working class is going to be happy about paying more for anything regardless of policy outcome. let’s be real..

[@user-xk1ff4gp7k]

Now Gavin wants to give kids flipping hamburgers 20 bucks an hour fast food restaurants are what we used to call Stepping Stone employment you were never meant to raise a family or buy a house on that salary go to trade school or go to college

[@grantbello8695]

If I could earn more id be happy to go without the newest iPhone. IT all depends on what what we'd be paying more for. The pipe dream, imo, is thinking that if the right wins, they'll move left to help rural voters who they already have banked.

[@SubvertTheState]

You are insane to think i would accept anything other than onshoring. I already dont buy anything, i literally cant afford anything but the bare essentials. The Conservative Party, likely for the last 2 generations, has always been the long term minded more fiscally responsible party.

[@leggoego]

​@@SubvertTheStateUnfortunatley the most motivated voters have seemingly been the ones who want subsidies and big gov't in general

[@stevechance150]

​@@SubvertTheStateSubveetTheState /ignore

[@r.c.rosario8435]

Always with the feigned concern over non-existent 'free market' volatility: "oh, we can't do 'living wage' or union labor or innovation, etc-- the people won't LIKE higher prices.." 1. As if capitalist corp MONOPOLIES operate in a "free market" economy, vulnerable to consumer demand/choice. 2. As if price increase is unavoidable, that nothing else has room for adjustment, i.e. the multi-deca-millions in exec salaries, stock buybacks...

[@miguelgameiro8063]

Yeah that’s what free market fixes the more competition the less of this happens you can collude with 5 people you can’t collude with 100

[@GSXK4]

What is your core argument.. and what are the simple solutions?

[@marlak4253]

I think r.c. rosario's core issue is that the nation can & should have a living wage, unionized labor, Medicare for all with dental, etc. without inflation if it were not for greed among the wealthy corp monopolies who could care less about poverty and the effects of their policies on the general population. China lifted 800 million people out of poverty in only 40 years and now has the largest economy in the world. How about this as a model?

[@CaesarRenasci]

What's wrong with CEOs' salaries? You never complain about people like LeBron Kames whovcannot speak properly a single human language and are paid $120M for successfully shoving a rubber ball through a metal hoop. "His pay is termined by the market, " you say. But a $20-30M for a CEO who ensures jobs for 200,000 people is too much? That pay is also determined by the market. 2. What's wrong with buybacks? Nothing, actually. A company that can grow SELLS stock to finamce growth. A company that cannot grow returns the money to shareholders --- BUYS its stock. This is much like gamilies. During the growth stage, families buy and move into bigger houses; and at an older age, they sell their estates and downsize. You are full of hate but know nothing about that what you hate.

[@Romeo7414GD]

🎯🎯🎯🎯

[@Mh5280]

This was great

[@BellePal]

What happened to raising taxes for billionaires rather than raising taxes for ordinary people, which is what tariffs do? We don’t need to bring spending down as much if some of those billions could be reinvested in ordinary people, and in green energy and in families as you guys like to talk about.

[@automateeverything2341]

tariff = tax is overly simplistic thinking.

[@MegaDevo999]

As long as the tariff is not too high, a modest tariff is one of the relatively better taxes (like inheritance taxes, wealth taxes) as it does raise revenue and spur domestic production. I'd rather see moderate tariffs and lower earned income taxes at the lower brackets.

[@swarming1092]

If you ignore what's going on in this element of the Republican Party out of your reflexive liberal dismissal, you're going to find the next 15-20 years very, very disorienting.

[@MegaDevo999]

Maybe, but it's just a repackaging with populist sounding rhetoric. Seriously, besides tariffs what taxes are they willing to increase, especially on business and the wealthy? How much are they willing to cut the defense budget? 25%? 50%? More?

[@Joeshapiro7]

I think id agree with a guy like Oren on most things. Keep the taxes where they are. But no more cuts. Worry first about empowering unions and making sure corporations honor the laws we do have. Then, we need to restructure our welfare policies such that welfare is mostly limited to those types that enable capital accumulation rather than those which just act as a free handout. ​Hardworking decent Americans dont dream of stagnation but with a safety net. They dream of owning a home having a family and going on vacation once or twice a year. Increased taxation will eventually be needed in large part to pay off our debt. But we have a dozen other things that need to be dealt with first. Again though that increased taxation should have less of a focus on redistribution. It should be so that we as a country can pay our bills.@MegaDevo999

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@MegaDevo999 obviously part of the idea is that everything isn't yet settled and this isn't their final form.

[@marianam8643]

This is a much more interesting discussion than I anticipated. Congratulations all around. So there are ways for the left and right to communicate effectively and cut out politicians who seem to thrive on screaming at each other. Well done.

[@generallobster]

Jesus Christ. I’m only 43 years old, and at the 55 minute mark, you guys are talking about your first political memories: being something that happened in the early to mid 90s? How The fall of communism, the fall of the Berlin wall, etc., are all essentially ancient relics from textbooks that are not existent in your actual reality. I’m only 43 years old and I remember All of that as well as stuff going back to the mid 80s. I don’t understand how we have such young experts on topics such as the patterns that may or may not evolve over the course of decades in the realm of politics.

[@mariejane1567]

Im 41 and don't remember much in the 80s.....

[@serpentines6356]

Well, there's that tricky word "experts". I don't put much stalk in it. A lot of them "experts" are plain stupid. ("Tricky Dick(y)" was a 'nickname' for Prez Nixon. He got it in 1950.) Solzehnistyn coming to the U.S. was a very big deal. Lot's of media coverage. I suggest reading through the Solzehnistyn website, "Warning to the West" is very good, listening to his interviews, his commencement address at Harvard '78. (If you haven't already). He went through the Gulags, and then got Cancer. So, VERY serious guy. I think the MSM finally dropped him because he brought up 'God.' That dreaded three letter word. I read Reagan was told NOT to include in his Presidential speech, ..."Mr. Gorbachev, Tear down that wall", but he did anyway - going against his political advisors. Sounds like you should go into political/public policy...You remember well. The wall coming down was a HUGE deal! For what's going on now, I'm very glad J Peterson had an interview with Tommy Robinson. (I have been following what's going on in Europe for a long time, but no one where I live (who pride themselves on being well informed) know who T. R. is, or anything else I read about. I also love Douglas Murray, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali..."The Market for Victimhood" by Ali, is very good.

[@swarming1092]

Ezra is a unique talent, and this guy is unusually thoughtful and prescient given the cohort of American conservatives over the last decade.

[@CaesarRenasci]

​@@mariejane1567Pot was potent?

[@CaesarRenasci]

​@@mariejane1567 Only in America one can say this with pride. Only in our blessed country being an egotistic self-centered pig is acceptable and admired since the 1960s.

[@oldasrocks9121]

The one thing in American politics upon which politicians and strategists can ALWAYS depend is the unending gullibility of the American electorate.

[@msimon6808]

Education can counter that. Like why do abused children like politics? Hitler was an abused child.

[@jrm21386]

Would you apply the same sentiment to the American populace and the COVID/big pharma narrative over the last several years?

[@oldasrocks9121]

@@jrm21386 Oh boy. Prove you're human.

[@jrm21386]

@@oldasrocks9121 lol. Well, I made several typos in my original question, didn't I?

[@oldasrocks9121]

​@@jrm21386Maybe you were hallucinating...

[@jersydvl]

Trump is for the american people and the workibg class. I can't wait to vote for him. MAGA!!!

[@trishbridges992]

You must be BLIND and DEAF!!! Have you READ project2025??? They are PLANNING to CUT OVERTIME and end Unions! They are planning to loosen rules for CHILD Labor!!! They are going to CUT BENEFITS for Veterans!!!! Exactly, what do you think they would do?????

[@r.c.rosario8435]

@jersydvl name even one piece of Repub legislation that has ever even proposed to help middle class, nevermind actually succeeding at it--the Repub platform is built on taking away civil rights, creating tax loopholes only for ultra-rich, taxing the middle and lower classes disproportionately, limiting redress of grievances, siding with corporations over private citizens, using govt to seize private property, blocking judicial appointments, the list of bad things done by Repub elected officials is endlessly in favor of rich at expense of middle class (whom they brainwash with propaganda then grift and scam for "donations")

[@rachelhead4986]

No he's not. That's how the brain washing works. Sad for you

[@TheLeftPath]

Haha. Both parties represent the corporate and financial leeches. You don't even realize it.

[@RobotProctor]

5:20 conversation starts

[@crosstraffic187]

Good discussion.

[@josephscarpaci3688]

Its hard to remember events like the Triangle Shirt waist factory fire that occured after the ladies trying to organize for safety reasons were roughed up by the close police precinct the March 25 1911 & 146 +- people died as my grandfather in his police uniform was on crowd control. The owners were never found guilty or even charged with neglect! Yep free enterprise isn't free if you're on the bottom rung.

[@EddyMiller-hv9xg]

We love President Trump!

[@trishbridges992]

Why?

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

The real question is why do you love President Trump. And what has he ever successfully achieved?

[@direwolf6234]

truly a great role model for our children ...

[@EddyMiller-hv9xg]

@direwolf6234 his own children are a testimony to that. We love them too, Jesus is though only perfect man and that's because he is God too.

[@EddyMiller-hv9xg]

Jesus is the only...

[@mikec6733]

So great to hear two people have an intelligent and civil discussion. They didn't firmly agree on every point, but that's what a valuable discussion is all about.

[@MustangKruiser]

Is the goal to manufacture the majority of goods consumed by America in America? Would this mean others countries' economies are less dependent on access to the American market? Reduced dependence internationally on the American dollar? Would this reduce America's ability to wield economic power on the international stage? Effectiveness of economic sanctions? What would this do to America's soft/economic power on the world stage?

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Even if you assume it does decrease the influence and power of the US on the world stage, alot of the same people in favor of more manufacturing in the US also want the US to pull back at least somewhat on the "world policing" anyway.

[@domcizek]

AMERICA CAN NOT BUILD EVERYTHING HERE, YOU COULD TRY, BUT THE CONSUMER COST WOULD BE SO HIGH THAT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE DOUBLE THE WAGES TO SURVICE

[@dwwolf4636]

Foreign people need US dollars. They get those when we buy foreign stuff.

[@domcizek]

@@dwwolf4636 YES, IF WE MADE A LOT OF THINGS HERE, THE PRICE WILL BE HIGHER BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER WAGEES

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@@domcizekessentially noone believes that everything can be built in the US.

[@Lemmy1899]

Trump 2024!

[@marcusaurelius9123]

Trump to prison after losing the 2024 election!

[@cherrylee2767]

"Spending for 'Americans' need to come down? I would say, spending for Israel needs to come down and divert those Billions for Israel to and for Americans.

[@bevanbray7126]

Unless you were born 4 years ago we all lived through a trump presidency and a Biden one… which had better economic stability? I know damn well if I was making the same now while trump was president I wouldn’t have any troubles. Under Biden I’m living paycheck to almost next paycheck and I definitely make more than minimum wage.

[@stellarjayatkins4749]

This.

[@BellePal]

Covid screwed me. Thanks Trump

[@chrisrecord5625]

When we had a large trade deficit with Japan it ended up with them coming over and buying US property, golf courses, etc. for 3X their previous value then 5 to 10 times less than they paid for such assets.

[@MegaDevo999]

While it is common to blame labor and regulations and the cost of manufacturing for all the offshoring done in the last three or more decades that nobody seems to mention: it was not only done to produce things abroad, it was to get greater access to those foreign markets (and governments). They didn't care about the Americans displaced that were left behind, because the U.S. market had already matured, whereas in China and other developing markets not only was labor cheap and environmental restraints non-existent, those same workers were a source of demand for everything.

[@leonardwitucke1]

Trump 2024

[@mipiace2504]

Trump and Vance are patriotic Americans that believe in the Constitution and the working class.

[@talisikid1618]

This guy seems to not understand. Cars made in Japan are better than their American made counterparts. Just ask a mechanic. Same with firearms. Americans just aren’t as conscientious as the Japanese. I want to choose without a stupid tariff in the way. Maybe if you started with moral education first, you wouldn’t ever need the tariffs.

[@MegaDevo999]

A big part of that was the ascendency of the finance in the corporations in America to lay off and do everything to cut costs to squeeze out more profits in a race to the bottom; while at the same time the Japanese [had] lifetime employment and were concentrating on incremental improvement, When the U.S. brought quotas (for number of cars, rather than value) the Japanese did the logical thing and stopped sending the cheaper cars and moved up the value chain.

[@CorruptDemocratsJ6]

PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024!

[@michealhudson2325]

If you can't remember, why talk.

[@dark_mode]

Oh my god I'm bored out of my mind.

[@christinewimer5523]

You must be a liberal. You thrive on hate and disinformation so I can see how the truth would bore you.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

Mandatory accounting in the schools. Should have been done since Sputnik.

[@billierpaxton9260]

The more negative I hear spewed about Vance, the more I know Trump made the right choice.

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

And how about listening to some of that negative because baby just maybe there’s a real reason for it. People hate to think that they are wrong. And they hate to even consider it.

[@jannichi6431]

He covered both sides. Prior to 2020 and post. Literally did a 180!

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

@@jannichi6431 yes and why would anyone believe whatever he said. He’s changed sides to suit his ambition. And his wife used to be a democrat. Plus i heard on one of the pundits outlets they are denigrating her already because she isn’t white. Why would you ever go there with that party! I understand also he lied about his background in that book. His family from Appalacia think he created stories and they said they’re not real. I think Ron Howard is sorry he ever did that movie without checking out the story better. A word to anyone making a documentary or docudrama to be sure it’s true before making it. 😔

[@minshew2039]

You support an inconsistent, uncharming, grifter? Checks out, especially for a maga supporter.

[@JohnBickner]

David Ricardo in Principles of Political Economy followed his examples of comparative advantage with a few caveats. If one of the traded goods is manufactured a factory owner could just move his factory. But he said three things would prevent it: (1) Language barriers (2) Political instabilit or expropiation in the host country (3) Transportation costs. Today half the world knows more than one language. Neocolonialism protects expatriated property. And we have shipping containers. Goodby comparitive advantage. Workers in the poor country gain. Capitalists in the rich country gain . Workers in the rich country lose and so do capitalists in the poor countries.

[@deigovideos1031]

Crazy the republican guy doesnt even pretend to want prices to go down lol. Apparently, we just need an excuse for the high prices; fuck it, make em higher.

[@monocrum]

Bro is finally catching on that his party left the building years ago.

[@user-xk1ff4gp7k]

Who is bro and why are you using bro to start your sentence with I'm pretty sure you weren't taught that in grade school that form of language is used to create division is that your intent here

[@Gracie5.5]

​@user-xk1ff4gp7k Seriously ... policing his writing skill - and didn't even punctuate your sentence. #FJB

[@bernardzsikla5640]

​@@user-xk1ff4gp7kCritiquing the way he is communicating his thoughts does nothing mitigate that fact that he is right. Which is both traditional parties have taken their voting bases for granted for a very long time and because of that, we have the maga movement. I hate to say this, but the excesses on the left has brought a over reaction on the right. We are all going to pay for this political experiment that is happening right before eyes. One big reason is NAFTA shipped their jobs overseas and decimated the quality of life for poor Americans and rural Americans. These people are more religious and less educated than the average American. We wonder how did America get so crazy??

[@toomeyeh1]

​@@user-xk1ff4gp7kreally bad faith mindset for someone that probably spends a *lot* of time making comment battles like this😅 thats kinda corny man. I am not a maga cultist btw so please no strawman 😢

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

I agree with him, stop saying "bro" every other word. I have no idea which guy you're talking about because you just said "bro" like you're in a tiktok video.

[@frederickucker3529]

Why does he, like, pause, talk like a Valley girl???

[@WhispersfromtheWarp]

a very long and boring way to say - trump bad man and vance bad man lol.

[@MermaidTyrone]

Did you listen to the podcast? Because Ezra and the Republican actually agreed on more than they disagreed and nowhere did he even say "Trump bad". I think there's some derangement syndrome going on with you.

[@jaybeaton9301]

Very informative. Thank you.

[@ericchang9568]

Market is the new Roman Catholic Church, all nations and their people should bow to the invisible hand. Ann Ryan is the new Jesus.

[@dfinma]

16:50 I hope you recognize that the magic of markets that we are encouraged to believe is capitalist propaganda.

[@MegaDevo999]

it only exists when there is Perfect Competition. That's something that is an impediment to outsized profits and predation, so they do what they can to circumvent that

[@qn57]

I‘m increasingly TEKSting, i.e., recommending The Ezra Klein Show to my friends. Nobody knows where all of this is going, but something is going on in our thinking, finally.

[@hershalgroundjr585]

Amazing the Democratic rhetoric

[@Moses2elecboog]

Good podcast

[@steveb796]

The trade deficit increased 23% under trump after Obama lowered it by 10.%. With Mexico it went up 78% under trump and down 3 % under Obama

[@rachelhead4986]

Absolutely exactly 💯

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

And? I think most people would rather see more trade within North America than places like China.

[@Assaultman0351]

Wow you really have ZERO idea what you're talking about.

[@Vader19k8]

Every other nation will then put tariffs on american goods

[@stevechance150]

Trump thinks "If I put a 10% import tariff on Chinese washing machines, then China will cut the prices by 10% to offset the tariff". That's NOT how companies work.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

The US is already one of the least globally exposed, rich and developed markets there is.

[@testboga5991]

​@@chickenfishhybrid44and it will lose that status by isolating itself

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@testboga5991 "isolating" lol. A whole lot of trade goes on between the US and the rest of the Americas, I expect that to increase. Trade with China and the rest of the world also isn't going to just stop.

[@stephensuddick1896]

Hillbilly Forgery

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Neoliberal copery

[@stephensuddick1896]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 Right-wingnut lame commentary

[@stephensuddick1896]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 Ancient right-wing commentary

[@msimon6808]

"Is the G.O.P.’s Economic Populism Real?" Is INFLATION real?

[@christinewimer5523]

Duh...go to the grocery store and see inflation is real, pay your electric bill, you gas, your insurance, cloths, appliances, every necessity you need. Then compare it to when Trump was presidents 1.4 inflation. Dems lie about inflation. All those necessities I mentioned are not included in their inflation stats. Gee..Wonder why. Read once in awhile.

[@crayolascents]

Isn't CNN and NPR alleging that groceries are more affordable than ever, crime is lower than ever, and everything is better than ever? That's some serious reality denial but necessary to maintain their party line.

[@direwolf6234]

except they don't have a plan .. oh wait ..tariffs ...

[@MIKAEL212345]

1:01:30 I actually died laughing here with the Kamala quote.

[@Brian-os9qj]

This is a useful conversation for new theory of governing and who and what is the agenda. Oren Cass is interestingly in the middle of it. What or who from a Liberal pov can speak as well to the problem facing America?

[@MegaDevo999]

The decades of lies that Freed Trade will mean better, higher paying jobs here and "We don't need to worry about wages and labor and environmental standards and human rights in these other countries, once we (our corporations) have access to their markets, they'll all want to become just like it [cuz we're so awesome" screwed the working class. Not sure that it can be undone, but how do you rectify that, other than feel-good fla-waving rhetoric?

[@blainedunlap8571]

My God, Ezra, you say 'ˆ I" more times per minute than anyone in history. Look, you are a bright, articulate fellow, everybody I know thinks you would have been better on MSNBC that the guy that won the slot..but the NYT is not chopped liver, good save, etc., BUT: I find, I believe, I feel, puh-lease.

[@CountyPharisee]

The male vocal fry of the host is unbearable.

[@starmountpictures]

jew voice....

[@MyTruth1771]

Ezra got handled. He leads with basically a lot of assumptions.

[@edwoodsr]

More than any other issue, this convo highlights the competing factions within of both parties. I think the conclusion has to be that until party fragmentation is resolved, nothing much will be done.

[@thebeebyboys1751]

This was the most intelligent thing I’ve heard from the right on the economy in 40 years

[@talisikid1618]

The problem is we don’t make the best stuff. The rest of the world will reciprocate with their own restrictions on US goods. Very bad idea. We need to raise the minimum wage to $25/hr and pegged to inflation. SS benefits as well. Raise them up to where they should be and peg them as well. Tax the wealthy and corporations a lot more, including any tax dodges overseas. Put even higher taxes on their expat wealth and means test for everything including SS. All taxable assets are subject to SS taxes as well. No deductions or exemptions. Behavior an be modified by adding extra taxes and fees. But import/export should be done on an equal footing with our friends and allies, not arbitrary tariffs. Tax China, they have earned it with their deceit. But not friends and allies.

[@grantbello8695]

Fantasy to imagine the right wing moving further left volenterally, considering how many W's they are putting up currently.

[@TheBruceGday]

Are they posting W’s because they are moving towards populism and the people though?

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

The right is only moving further right. They have no interest in looking ahead. Trump is the leader and he only cares about the bottom line. That being more power for him. Or more money for him. He’s never cared about helping the country and hasn’t changed one iota. He will say whatever he thinks will be popular amongst those gullible enough to believe it. He’s been lying about stuff his whole life and why people believe him now is beyond reason

[@IcyVegeta]

​@@TheBruceGday They don't care about that. Unlike Dems, they relentlessly pursue victory even with lies and scummy rhetoric.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

There's people on the left who still think Joe Biden is alive.

[@singed8853]

Their wins are tied to moving left. The parties are in the process of moving in opposite directions. It’s a fluid situation.

[@goadfang]

This dude fundamentally doesn't get it. He keeps talking about how once upon a time we made soup-to-nuts semiconductors, but when we did that we were not all carrying multiple semiconductors on our persons at all time, we weren't living and working in homes and offices chock-full of semiconductors in every thing we own. Soup-to-nuts semiconductors production is absolutely feasible if each home may at best have one semiconductor in it that just needs to be replaced once every 3 or 4 years, but it's a whole different story when every single American buys a new semiconductor almost every month. It's absolutely inflationary thinking to assume that you can force, via tariffs, a semiconductor company to relocate facilities to the US, a nation with a sub-500 million population, that has a declining population at that, a population with less than 4% unemployment even, will be able to produce on its shores enough semiconductors to fulfill this kind of appetite and not have almost every American almost instantly priced out of buying semiconductors at all. I'm not saying we shouldn't onshore as much production as possible, but it is going to require investment in an immense infrastructure, and huge subsidies, to make the chips our onshore producers make actually affordable compared to offshore manufacturers, even if we put a 60% tariff. That 60% tariff will just mean effectively 75% higher prices for consumer goods in the short term, and probably 250% increased prices if we cut that foreign supply entirely. And then you have the knock on effect of every single semiconductor producing nation putting tariffs of their own on what little we actually do manufacture and export.

[@patrickmccurdy8688]

Is the Republican party becoming the old Democratic party (pre-LBJ)?

[@BruceWing]

Quasi… yes.

[@BruceWing]

@@patrickmccurdy8688 - I’m 57, white, southern, highly formally educated in the finance industry. I was once very much a fan of free trade, NAFTA, and globalism. I am not any longer. I dislike much of the rhetoric of the left because of the marxist’s tinged references to power. Yes, power exists, but that doesn’t mean those with power do things to intentionally hurt the working class… to maintain their power. More often than not, the actions of the wealthy are simply self-interested responses to incentives. While agreeing that social conservatism can go too far, the socially conservative idea that those in power - who will naturally do things in their own self interest - should do so under the social/cultural constraint that Americans should help Americans… is a good idea. Liberals share a similar value. Libertarians (an ideology I very much like… but believe is incomplete… as all political ideologies are) is too atomistically individualistic to grapple with the conservative/liberal advocacy of the above point.

[@TheLeftPath]

@@BruceWing Lol what you described about those in power doing stuff because of self-interest based on incentives which is given to them by a system is precisely what Marx wrote about. And if you dont want those incentives to exist, the system must be changed. Maybe you should read a little bit more by Marx... They do it on behalf of the capitalists because the government is precisely what sets up and maintains the economic order with its laws. Your idea that social conservatives should act in their own self-interest and helping people at the same time.... is extremely contradictory in itself. And is based upon the liberal / conservative non-materialist way of thinking.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

Ezra Klein: "It's IMPOSSIBLE for us to make chips here, it's too complicated." American Economy: "DYNAMIC INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY GO BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

[@Ryanandboys]

He didn't say that at all and if you research anything about computer chips there's literally about a thousand companies that are global that all make some unique part that you need to make the most complex chips. These companies worked for decades to learn how to make the tools and processes you can't replicate all of that overnight so you would need to import all that or purchase the companies. It's a matter of cost in trade-offs we could have a sort of Manhattan project of build our own chips but it would cost so much money and take too long. And we don't even have enough or the right kind of workers to do so.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

@@Ryanandboys So what failed former Soviet State are you from that's led you to entirely underestimate what America is capable of? This country is the most advanced economy in the history of the human species. This country takes in more foreign university students every year than the entire university system of the Netherlands educates TOTAL -- and Trump wants to give ALL of those students a green card. We're leading the world by YEARS on A.I., fusion power, space travel, advanced robotics, self-driving cars, and defense technology -- we're ahead on biotech, quantum computing, advanced manufacturing, and telecommunications. We're the only large developed economy with a population that isn't in decline, including China whose population is collapsing. America's eight largest tech companies have a larger market cap than the NATIONS of Britain, France, Germany and Canada combined. Apple alone is a larger economy than Germany. We make more oil than Saudi Arabia, we make more natural gas than Qatar, our banks are the dominant banks and our dollar is the dominant currency. "We can't make computer chips!" We INVENTED computer chips.

[@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat]

@@Ryanandboys I sent you a long, well researched, and detailed reply explaining why the American economy is the best in the world and more than capable of this. Google's Progressive left wing "sense or ship" algorithm removed the reply for being too pro American.

[@jannichi6431]

Wow. Who invented the chip? Please expound on Algorithm shift by Google/Utube? if you would. Is Bing and Thread.the way to go?

[@joshuafarden6069]

I'll see an appealing topic but then I have to shut it off after being reminded about how grating and difficult to bear Ezra's voice and demeanour are to listen to.

[@Brian-os9qj]

Ezra does never miss an opportunity to be condescending. He did manage to get to what Oren was attempting to clarify. Bad faith was not Ezra here, although he is a gotcha seeker extraordinaire typically.

[@mathewwelsh9129]

I hate to be so superficial about this, since I really enjoyed the content of the conversation, but yes I can hardly bear the classic righteous Millennial Cadence that both Ezra Klein and Sabrina Tavernise at The Daily, have. Whether it's true or not, the Rhythm and Cadence and vocal fry give the sense that they really think they're smart and love the sound of their own voices. It's always a relief when the other person starts talking because they tend to speak normally. I Hear other online presenters and podcasters imitating this annoying speech pattern. Again, I feel so superficial in taking so much time to make this comment but the speech pattern does make me cringe when I hear it and it makes it hard to thoroughly enjoy the topic.

[@MiMiBrokenbourgh]

truth hurts

[@llaneritaright]

This is a very narrow worldview, typical of americans. Look, I live in the Netherlands. The economy is good but not so big as the US. People here get married or in couples young, around 25/27. And almost everybody here has two/three kids. They both work but there is an absolute cap in 40hr/week. And in women's case you can have 25/32 hours to take care of the children. You get help from the Government for the kids, and for housing. That "macho men" view of the single income family with a dependent wife is very distopic and misoginistic. America is ill.

[@stephenakin5728]

So I am not trying to say that you 100 percent off base, but the births per women in the Netherlands is 1.62 which is well below the replacement rate and the 2-3 kids per family that you have experienced. It is even slightly worse that the US’s 1.66. Also they made it clear that they didn’t explicitly mean for it to be a man. The fellow pushed back on that after Ezra brought up that this was just about midwestern white men supporting families. Lastly, as a personal anecdote, as a father to 3 children having the ability to keep a parent at home is huge blessing. Especially when the kids are young

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

It's always interesting to me how people who tell you hoe narrow minded Americans are go on to explain how they and their country have it all figured out and basically "America ignorant and bad". Is it ok that America and Americans might be different than you or your country?

[@jasonhanson6563]

And what is happening the the Democrat Party? You literally have nazis marching in the streets 😂

[@wtice4632]

Where is that happening? Oh right, youre just a liar.

[@direwolf6234]

nazis or hamas supporters ??

[@wtice4632]

@@direwolf6234 you meant to say zionists

[@josephpadula2283]

Black shirt , masked Antifa here in Portland .

[@chrisocony]

At 1:01:00, it is noted that medical debt stems from bad luck, so Ezra thinks we should be more inclined to forgive that than education debt, which I will note stems from good luck, generally.

[@mathewwelsh9129]

I hate to be so superficial about this, since I really enjoyed the content of the conversation, but yes I can hardly bear the classic righteous Millennial Cadence that both Ezra Klein and Sabrina Tavernise at The Daily, have. Whether it's true or not, the Rhythm and Cadence and vocal fry give the sense that they really think they're smart and love the sound of their own voices. It's always a relief when the other person starts talking because they tend to speak normally. I Hear other online presenters and podcasters imitating this annoying speech pattern. Again, I feel so superficial in taking so much time to make this comment but the speech pattern does make me cringe when I hear it and it makes it hard to thoroughly enjoy the topic.

[@Edo9River]

This guy has not read the book on chip mfg.. Hee reaches so many superficial tropes on mfg competition. For example the auto mfg. conditions. Japanese companies employ Americans

[@Hellojsm8823]

Vance is a role model of the American dream

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

He also called Trump Hitler 🤷‍♂️

[@bentrinker1937]

You start off being a Trump critic then run as Trump backed candidate?

[@miguelgameiro8063]

@@bentrinker1937so did Kamala and that landed her vice presidency

[@fanthony]

@@jacobjorgenson9285have you never changed your mind before?

[@fanthony]

@@bentrinker1937Saul of Tarsus and the Damascene Conversion come to mind.

[@Edo9River]

Biden is going to have to show sustained emotions in reaching these blue collar voters. I just don’t know that Biden has this energy in his tank

[@yvonneplant9434]

He needs to talk about his own background more. More about how he grew up. About why his family left Scranton, PA. Trump has never spent a second without money. He has no idea what a struggle about money is like. In that sense he is NOT like Hitler at all who spent a time in Vienna without money and in poverty. Think many of us know that Hitler was a WWI vet too.

[@Losttimes1992]

@@yvonneplant9434So what he’s been a failed politician for 50 years jack shit to show. Remember you ain’t Wakanda unless you vote for me- Sleepy 46.

[@marys3025]

@@Losttimes1992hmmm? Failed? He won a fair election and became the president.

[@stellarjayatkins4749]

@@yvonneplant9434Biden has been in politics his entire life, and been a corrupt, incompetent liar since his first day.

[@christinewimer5523]

Your worried Bidens energy??? The man is Senile for gods sake. You should be worried about that.

[@andybaldman]

56:50 Wow, he really dodged that coffee shop question. (And not very skillfully.)

[@minkbach9452]

these 2 parties have not the american people in there mind. more like 2 clans fighting each other

[@vladseva2327]

Exactly... All this debate while being fascinating will have no impact on real politics.

[@serpentines6356]

​​@@vladseva2327 Well, we shall see...There are at least a few issues that have been hugely impacted, depending on who is in office.

[@vladseva2327]

@@serpentines6356 which ones?

[@CB-lk6pm]

GO J D !!!!!!

[@Happyharold666]

Uhm.. me thinks you’re about to find out

[@jalight27]

48:08 Well when you jave one party actively working to destroy workers rights and pay and one that at least supports rights and pay for workers a little.... Well which one would you choose if you represented those workers? It's wild to see these intelligent people do such mental gymnastics like this man did towards the back third of the podcast.

[@jaybeaton9301]

Michael Millerman on youtube is delving into the philosophical underpinnings of this emerging political movement.

[@lawrencetchen]

Generally speaking, I welcome advocacy for workers from all perspectives and all the healthy debate that entails. However, we will be watching very, very intently at what is actually done on behalf of workers, if indeed *all* workers are included, and which outcomes truly reflect the words spoken by each of our leaders before imparting judgement. Thank you, Ezra and team, for bringing this conversation to us.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

This is obviously fair enough. Given Republicans track record people shouldn't hold their breath. At the same time it's interesting to me how little people talk about Democrats who haven't really done shit for workers and have used the rhetoric for much longer than Republicans have. The next step is generally "well Democrats were on the verge of creating worker paradise but the Republicans stopped them!"

[@cterbush]

What a strange inversion! Tariffs without the kind of raw market intervention that Reagan that increased jobs wouldn’t work politically. And…China is just different due to geopolitics.

[@jaynespearin71]

I can't bear Ezra's voicccceee. Loved Oren's succinct responses though. Maybe I can catch him on a different podcast.

[@MegaDevo999]

"You don't HEAR J.D. Vance talking [emphasis mine] about cutting entitlements and removing access to medical care.." In other words, a more compassionate SOUNDING conservatism.

[@Edo9River]

Yeah but those subsidies are reality. Customers ill search for price differences, this is part of the ay markets do their natural inclinations.

[@LiberalinOregon]

But Biden is old. Where is your rant?

[@trip8263]

The speech from MADELINE BRAME was the most interesting. Wow!!

[@zfvr]

Manufacturing moved overseas because it was cheaper there. Design moved overseas because it was cheaper there. Forcing manufacturing to come back is not going to make design to come back. Its a pipe dream.

[@trishbridges992]

@@zfvr Seem US manufacturers are coming back on their own!

[@dfinma]

19:25 It's important to recognize that corporations have no interest in creating jobs or investing in the US. They are required to make short-term profits, period. This is Capitalism 101.

[@other-phone]

Nice propaganda

[@MermaidTyrone]

Can you point out out what exactly was propaganda here?

[@other-phone]

@@MermaidTyrone 💉😷

[@rachelhead4986]

​@@MermaidTyronethe whole thing 😅

[@MermaidTyrone]

@@rachelhead4986 So it was Republican propaganda then? Because the host and the republican guest agreed on most things.

[@Jakob_DK]

There is no way, a single income family can have a nice enough lifestyle when they live among families with two incomes and about twice the income. Two incomes drive up both housing prices and expectations.

[@Edo9River]

How much of the possibility of a one income family is a possibility?

[@thatguy8869]

Part of the reason that one income families are not as possible is we are buying more toys: e.g., paying for internet, multiple cellphones and TVs, Netflix or other entertainment aps. And some things are getting more expensive due to more features, e.g., cars. Also, people raised in the Great Depression did not buy as much on credit.

[@GurtiusMaximus]

@@thatguy8869 the Democrats entire platform is Debt. It’s why they push Student loans so much.

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

@@GurtiusMaximus and you think this debt is due to Democrats? I suppose you don’t realize that the huge tax credit that Trump gave in his presidency created a huge debt.?

[@lydiagoldsmith2931]

@@GurtiusMaximus and on another note, Democrats don’t push student loans. They encourage education and people make decisions to get loans. They would like to make it more affordable for everyone to get an education without student loans. You are not reading enough.

[@GurtiusMaximus]

@@lydiagoldsmith2931 Oh that’s really interesting, why do they offer to unconstitutionally forgive loans but don’t offer to stop loans in the future? Why has college done nothing but increase in costs since Obama was in office? It’s almost like they’re liars and you’re gullible.

[@jeffyoung6616]

No

[@wegder]

I hope we continue to have elections in the way we were used to, the new supreme court hasn't really had time to interpret the constitution, we might be shocked by their interpretation.

[@RM-xf9gi]

Robots are coming so the US feels more confident in bringing manufacturing back to the United States. I am concerned about the pollution these new factories will produce.

[@domcizek]

WELL, CLOTHES WOULD TRIPPLE IN PRICE FOR EVERYONE , NO ONE COULD AFFORD TO BUY THEM