objectivity is dumb and stupid.

[@PretzelYT]

It was fun to put this together, I'm gonna try to make some more one off video essays in the future. These are a nice change of pace from the usual for me.

[@Mikewee777]

It would be nice if moderators said : " This feels like a personal attack, please delete this offensive statement before you are flagged" instead of permanently banning me from a forum without any warning.

[@monopoly2170]

After watching countless KZbin videos use the word “objectively good” to justify opinions, this title spoke to my soul

[@saulitix]

This is an subjectively good comment

[@Zachwesse]

This video is objectively good.

[@PretzelYT]

TRUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[@Frederick-111]

This video is bad (I'm objectively wrong)

[@aquila4121]

ayo this guy is a proponent of puppy kicking

[@meinebosma]

🚩

[@TheSuckoShow]

I think talking about games as "objectively" good or bad is refusing to engage games as art, reducing it to like an appliance or just a piece of functional software. Like a toaster can be objectively good or bad based on how evenly and how quickly it toasts a piece of bread. "This game is objectively bad" I think lets the speaker dodge the emotional vulnerability and the personal accountability that comes with expressing a subjective opinion.

[@Velindian]

I think it's usually just because they assume their opinion is the framework of judgement and other people try to engage with the statement as if it's within their own framework. Ultimately both opinions are just subjective and people aren't good at communicating their scope initially. It's not always a refusal to engage with games as art, but it is an inability to communicate the framework in which the measurements of "bad" apply. Leading to pointless statements of conflicting opinions without any real purpose until someone explains why they feel the way they do.

[@Shepper99]

Well, some people prefer a little more rendering or even black spots on their toast, so you cam't say it's objectively good. It only is objectively good at even and quick toasting

[@percher4824]

The argument that games are art is stupid because games are art *and more.* So much more. Games are just games, but they're also art, sports, and community. Trying to simplify into just one of those categories just doesn't work, so you have to take every facet of a game into account when talking about it. It's no wonder to me that subjectivity/objectivity is such a heated topic for some people. Both sides have a stake in the market of videogames and you can't have one without the other.

[@TomoeMizuno]

I fully agree

[@mike1564]

Objectivity is dumb and stupid because I'm contrarian.

[@ACEM1A1]

Are you a contrarian objectively or subjectively tho?

[@mike1564]

@@ACEM1A1 lol

[@Boooo]

I feel this also applies well to discussions about difficulty, a lot of the time people talk about games being "too easy", but what "too easy" is depends on what someone's looking for and expecting. A game being easy doesn't mean it fails as a game, mechanics alone can be a lot of fun to just play around with, which is why games with almost no real challenge, like animal crossing and stardew valley, can still be fun to a lot of people.

[@PretzelYT]

I do wanna make a video talking difficulty someday. I feel like there's a lot to be said about it, especially with the whole dark souls/easy mode discourse.

[@fizzymilk2246]

agreed

[@Yuuri066]

I saw a good example of that recently. Many folks said Armored Core 6 way too hard, while many others said it was too easy. It just depends what direction you're approaching it from I guess.

[@swan-cloud]

difficulty doesn't actually exist IN the game, it's an emergent property between the player's skill and their desired in-game task. i wouldn't say this makes difficulty "subjective", but it does make it not universal.

[@lightningninja6905]

​@@swan-cloudI think that's a very well reasoned approach. As a slight aside to that, I'd like to point out that games that don't use traditional gameplay (combat or well established puzzle types as examples of traditional gameplay) to present challenge can have a huge advantage in making a games engaging for a playerbase that varies heavily in skill. Recently I've been playing a game called Lego Bricktales, and that game's challenge stems from trying to make lego buildings that can complete a specific task, like building a path that doesn't break from too much weight. Because so few games engage in this sort of simplified engineering in this manner, players are more likely to be on equal footing skill wise. This allows the game as well as similarly unique games to create a difficulty curve without worrying about a player's previous experience with simlar mechanics.

[@Xtreemo]

I'll go with the flow in this video and talk about this whole situation - in my opinion. Back in the day, people didn't seem to be obsessed with these factors: they wanted a fun game to play with their family, friends (remember: 20 years ago we still had split-screen games), or even online. People wanted games that could lock them in their chairs and make them have fun for hours. But this entire “this game bad/this game good” thing started around a decade ago or a bit more. Of course, people used to say this game was bad, and that game was good since way longer than that, but that's not exactly what happened in the last years. I've seen the media, and after that, many groups and mass movements growing up on the internet to criticize games in a bad way. These people started saying things like if they were absolute truths, or they shouldn't or couldn't be argued about. And one of the things that started all that were the so controversial console wars or flame wars, however you call it. People started to claim their console was better than the others, and that created some mediocrity around the whole community. Every day on X (formerly known as Twitter) is a nightmare: we can see Sony fans flaming Xbox fans, Xbox fans flaming Sony fans… These people don't love games no more. They love exclusivity. Most of the time these flame wars are pure baiting and I never fall for it, because I tend to walk away from that, personally. I'm one of the few that still does care about having a good time while playing something, not caring if it is a bad game or not. I can speak for myself that I actually enjoyed The Avengers game, or Cyberpunk 2077 (even if it's understandable in this case), while the rest of the internet bashed and hated those games for a long time. Likewise, I still play them and have fun with them. But if you dare go to the internet and claim those things, then the majority will tell you that “you must be crazy”. I'm absolutely tired of that. We have to get back to the times when all we cared about was the fun we have while playing. Wow, sorry for the absurdly huge text tho

[@alfaphoenix50]

I just saw your San Andreas vid, and now seeing this one, I feel like I’m in a similar thinking path of how you’re looking at things. I’ve been trying to appreciate everything around me more lately, and it’s really been helping me stay positive and enjoy life. You’ve given me some inspiration, so I just wanted to say thanks. Keep up the good work, brotherrrr.

[@mumkharbestboi7768]

This need for objectivity has been bothering me for a while now because I think it makes conversations about games a lot less interesting. I would rather hear someone talk about why they like or dislike a certain thing that most people have the opposite opinion about than them to try being objective. And if people were truly objective, every opinion would have to be the same because that's how objectivity works.

[@Asgoritolin]

If people just discussed baseless opinions you wouldn't discuss anything, actually, because there's nothing to discuss. If someone subjectively likes or dislikes certain aspect of a game, then that's where the conversation ends because its just a baseless opinion, you just share it or not. "if people were truly objective, every opinion would have to be the same because that's how objectivity works" Well, actually that's the point, to say something that is true. People discuss things, even while being objective, because they think the other person is wrong. Lmao what a brainlet.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

@@Asgoritolin There's a difference between baseless and objective, everything about games and art in general is subjective. The conversations continue on regardless because there is more to life than objective truth.

[@Asgoritolin]

@@Pastramii-n1k Not everything about games and art is subjective, as you say. The colors and style a painting uses are objective, for example. In the cases of games, we can also speak objectively about many things. We can say that, objectively, the narrative has plot holes. We can say that, objectively, the game has a lot of bugs. We can say that, objectively, the game features design choices that are contradictory and unnecessarily time consuming for the player. In any case, having refuted you, my original point was that even if subjectivity exists, there's not much to discuss when someone says "I just like it because it's my subjective opinion". OP complained he wished more pople discussed that, but I just don't see what you can discussed when debating preferences and baseless opinions.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

@@Asgoritolin That's true that a painting uses a color or a narrative has a plot hole but people assign meanings to those objective statements and anything beyond that is definitionally subjective. Saying "I just like it" isn't more subjective than "The games complex magic system, while flawed, is deep enough to stand out amongst it's contemporaries and is the true highlight of this game" it's just a comparatively useless opinion. Subjective does not equal baseless and useless and objective does not equal substantial and useful. I think part of the confusion is that to objectively judge something means to try and judge something without bias and an objective fact is something that is factually true. I suppose you can try to objectively judge a piece of art, but then again, can you objectively judge something subjective beyond the quality of it's craftsmanship? What denotes good craftsmanship itself isn't perfectly clear depending on what the art form is.

[@snintendog]

@@Pastramii-n1k subjectivity is objectively useless and worthless emotion for other to know about. thats why reviews all being the same should be a GOOD thing. and yes ALL ART is objective it doesnt take broad strokes to paint it objective either. Only the Lazy rely on Subjectivity.

[@nbproductions194]

I think the question/Answer of why? Gets lost in a lot of discourse especially online things move to fast for whys, only good/bad states as facts. Also love your philosophical take on games dude

[@JohnnyBagHead]

Great video, happy to see people acknowledge this issue. I have had some baffling interactions with people when it comes to discussion with art, including one guy who insisted he could "prove The Godfather is one of the best films ever made" and when I told him that's an entirely subjective statement, kept saying "well if art doesn't have objective quality then what's the point of making it, why even try or put in effort?" I can relate to that internal conflict though, I fully acknowledge and strife to promote art as subjective but there's specific media that I still struggle to not see as "bad/worse than"

[@TheFloodFourm]

99% of all video game discourse could be clarified or avoided with three magic words: “in my opinion”

[@SillyScores]

Everyone called Objectivity right now: 😭

[@hrnekbezucha]

This topic could be tackled from so many different points. I think you made a good case. I rewrote this comment many times, deleted paragraphs because there's so much to talk about on this objective vs subjective debate but nothing felt conclusive. Especially in art, there is so many rabbit holes that each go so deep it's making me dizzy just thinking about it. So yeah.. good video.

[@ugoboom]

im sorry pretzel my opinions are objectively based and everyone else's are objectively cringe that's just how it is im sorry

[@PretzelYT]

i understand 🫡

[@adenisaacs1850]

The reason why we do this is because as humans, we have a tendancy to catagorize things into neat little boxes. Good and bad is the big one. Because when you really think of it, neither exists. They're just ideas we humans impose on ourselves. Also, i don't think that there is no place for objective fact in gaming discourse. Some things just don't work within the game they are placed. Another reason most people resort to this is simply convince. Saying game good or game bad is much easier than an entire essay on the merits of a game. Language naturally tries to find the path of least resistance and so do we along with it. Also, another thing, i don't think people should have to qualify every statement they make by saying it's their opinion. Like, yeah. Of course it's your opinion. Because you're the one saying it.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

I try and make it clear that something is only my opinion when I feel I need to and I think it would lead to a lot more productive conversations if people did it more often, but obviously there's nothing wrong with not doing it. The bigger problem the video is trying to address is people misusing the word objective on things that are inherently subjective, even your example is subjective because there's no objective measurement of what does or does not work in the game it's placed in. In any creative field the closest thing there is to objectivity is judging things based on the intent of the author (What were they trying to achieve and did they succeed?) and judging the technical mastery of the artist's craft (The use of color and brush strokes in a painting)

[@peace1290]

People should start to say "in my opinion" more often, or identify whether someone else is stating an opinion or fact when it's not explicitly stated because it can deter arguments. It can be easy to think someone is stating their opinion as an objective fact which can lead to heated arguments and people feeling the need to defend their own opinion. It can be easy to fall into that trap which is why people need to be more aware.

[@hectordiazrodriguez7294]

​@@peace1290yeah i think the same, much argument in the internet would not exist if the people just start with "in my opinion" when they are opine about something, because this could be cofused with argue abouth something that is objetive.

[@peace1290]

@@hectordiazrodriguez7294 Yes, making it obvious that you're stating an opinion helps people to be more open minded and take less offense. Once people realise they're stating opinions, not facts, most of these arguments wouldn't start.

[@hectordiazrodriguez7294]

@@peace1290 exactly my dear friend

[@andycanoy863]

When it comes to opinions/reviews on any games, don't let other people's opinions cloud your view of a title. Use your own thoughts when discussing an experience.

[@DJBaphomet]

I love the concept of this cause like, it's a great topic. A lot of people love to go about "good or bad" when *every* game has both goods and bads, it's super subjective Hell, look no further than the best-selling game of All Time, Minecraft. It's a great game, one great enough to be the best-selling game of all time, and yet it's a super _super_ flawed game in terms of its design. There's a lot wrong with what it does when it comes down to its game design. And yet, that doesn't stop it from being such a massive game. One person can say the exploration in MC is absolutely horrible, boring and bland, while someone else might say it's great, and they could explore for hours without doing anything else. I think MC is especially a good example for this cause *so many people* have different ideas on what they want from it, to the point where "fixing minecraft!!!" is an entire genre of video essays, and most of them, in my opinion, are extremely flawed and miss the actual point of the game. They all talk super objectively about the design when it all comes down to personal opinion

[@1Nostrand1]

This was a great video. I came into the video already understanding the concepts, but I think people could find this helpful in expressing their opinions in a less polarizing way. Nice work.

[@titorodriguez5143]

You should do a "How to survive in Pokemon" video. I like Sapphire but you can pick whatever.

[@littlemoth4956]

I really don't feel like it is, considering a few things. 1) There *are* OBJECTIVE flaws in games. For example, bugs, unfinished content, overpricing, poor pacing or art direction. No matter what opinion you have, it doesn't change the reality that these things don't belong in games and that the existence of them is a mistake that the developers would likely fix had they the time and resources. 2) I do think there are ways to use objectivity in analysis of subjective things. Running Shine is a great example of a reviewer who does this. Melo, the narrator, often talks about simply how a game attempted to accomplish something in terms of writing or mechanics, and whether or not they succeeded or failed in doing that well. Yes, that's where subjectivity comes in, but there is a sense of objectivity in subjectivity: for example, if a game tries to send a message, and the vast majority of people who play it miss that message, it is certainly subjective whether or not that message was communicated well, but speaking objectively, it wasn't communicated well enough for most people to understand it, and for that, it can be objectively criticized. TLDR: If an element in a game was made in an attempt to do something, no matter how subjective it is, it can be objectively criticized based on how well it accomplished that goal.

[@Bboy10110]

See I see what you're going for in point 1, especially for things like bugs or unfinished content. But pacing & art direction are fully subjective criteria, whether or not the pacing of something works is going to depend on the person, same with art direction. But also, mistake are intrinsic to art, & just as much of a piece as the completed aspects of it. Would skyrim really be the same piece of art if it wasn't weird & buggy? In my opinion it wouldn't. My point is, essentially, even trying to decide what facets of criticism are objective you fall into arbitrary decisions & subjective claims. Like, you may thinks it's objective criticism to judge something on how well it "accomplished it's goal" but how well it did that is going to depend on the person, & is also dependent on if you actually know the goal of the artist, or if you're reading a goal into the piece based on observation, regardless, you are still making a subjective claim at some point in the process.

[@OtakuUnitedStudio]

Overpricing is a subjective criterion. How much a game is worth to any one person might vary. And believe it or not, some people enjoy certain kinds of bugs in their games because they can be entertaining. That's part of how Bethesda has gotten away with so much for so long - people find their bugs to be "charming."

[@snintendog]

@@Bboy10110 Dis agree heavily. Story pacing is 100% objective if you shove a boatload of sidequests that are mandatory into the main story that is 100% a pacing issue same as not having enough bloat to slow down the pacing at the correct time it will feel to fast like rushing a death in the party and ignoring their griever of their death for Plot reasons. ART IS OBJECTIVE. Sorry but your finger paintings wont sell millions because you don't have the prestige of a "artist" doing the same exact thing.

[@Bboy10110]

@@snintendog And something FEELING slow, or FEELING rushed is subjective. You may feel that a story is going to slow, or that it feels like bloat, but guess what? Others won't feel the same way. The reason that art is subjective is because the takeaway is, by the nature of human experience, going to be different for every single person who looks at it. Money plays no role in the definition of art. If I did a finger painting it would be art, & an artist making money off of the same sort of thing is also art. Your problem is with capitalism which is not what we're talking about. Things you personally see as flaws WILL be viewed as interesting or even good by other people, you may disagree but you are both making subjective claims about the art. Can you make generalized claims about quality, that "most people will feel like this was rushed/too slow" yeah, of course, but it's not objectively true.

[@snintendog]

@@Bboy10110 Incorrect if you meander on a scene that should be a single sentence this is 100% objectively hated this is OBJECTIVE regardless of you weird outliers. Art will always have an Objective line. Or are you going to argue my low effort comment is "ART". I noticed you cant debate me and just shove a hundred worthless fluff words to make it look like you are doing things right.

[@skewyangel]

This video resonated with me, because blah blah blah

[@fourthstrongest]

i've been watching your videos for a couple months now and this one solidified to me that i really really like your videos. you have a perspective that really resonates with me in most every aspect you've discussed thus far on your channel and i'm very excited to hear more from you, whether we agree or not. thank you for making these videos!

[@187Streak]

Kicking puppies in Daggerfall graphics is bad, in my opinion.

[@R3TR0J4N]

I havent consume this much essay or review to notice this 🤔

[@zdwheelman5782]

Off topic but I recently found your channel through the video game tours, and I wanna suggest a few games for you tour make a touring video on The first watch dogs game, sleeping dogs, gta4, and a lesser known game driver parallel lines, these games (except gta4) I feel like they are not given the love it deserves and I think they deserve more love and attention

[@sehrguterTyp]

got me thinking and that doesn't happen often on YT anymore

[@B-ot2xx]

A huge problem I have with Tears of the Kingdom is its music. I love everything else about the game, whether it be atmosphere, visuals, game rendering, dialogue, environmental storytelling, or the gameplay itself. And the music is no exception either. There are some really good gems in there, like the Sky Islands theme, the Zonai Ruins theme, the Colgera theme, the Hyrule Castle theme, and even the War in the Depths of Hyrule theme. But when I go back to Breath of the Wild, and listen to a song like “Monk Maz Koshia” and compare it to Tears of the Kingdoms equivalent: “Seized Construct”, I can’t help but feel that something was lost in the transition between the games. Especially with the final boss themes. (Dark Beast Ganon and Demon Dragon) I felt like they did Demon Dragon a disservice by not having some sort of solo work in the piece. Some could argue that the piano solo at the beginning of the song should be enough for me, but it’s not. Dark Beast Ganon gave me one of the most cathartic solos I’ve ever listened to in my life, and to have that song follow it up? It just feels wrong. I understand that they were going for a different vibe, but if you want to make that argument, listen to “Demon Dragon Destroyed” and “Last Catch”, (both take place in the Sky btw, so the argument that it NEEDED to be serene because it was in the sky is kinda mute) which both have piano solos in their main melodies. I’m sure it’s some people favorite song of all time, but for me, BotW did that song 10x better than TotK did. (Not only did the piano have a solo, the piccolo did as well) still a fantastic game, probably my favorite. But if I had to choose one to erase from existence for the fate of humanity, I’d choose TotK. It’s not a bad game, really. It has my favorite gameplay in any game ever. But the artistry showcased in BotW is something that apparently couldn’t be topped. Again, this is just my subjective viewpoint. I’m sure plenty of people love that games soundtrack to death, but it’s just brought down for me because a song we got 7+ years ago has better solo work.

[@OtakuUnitedStudio]

Personally I found music in both games that I preferred in different ways. The Colgera battle theme hit me hard, especially when the Rito Village motif drops. But I think the main issue both games have is that while there is actually a ton of great music in them, the overworld theme being atmospheric and having long stretches of silence makes the majority of the early to mid game feel too quiet. No, they didn't need a bombastic Hyrule Field theme like Twilight Princess, but more than just the occasional whole note or brief piano flourish would have been felt better to me. I like the horse riding theme fine as it is though.

[@B-ot2xx]

@@OtakuUnitedStudio I actually really like the Field themes. I dont necessarily need a big bombastic solo, (lol that’s what I was complaining about) but I would at least like a song to have something special. The Field theme in TotK feels much more lacking in comparison to BotW, even though there’s now synth and woodwind to accompany it. The reason I think BotWs is better is because of its significance. Not only the significance, but there are more advanced techniques the player uses when playing the piano in the original track.

[@vitalost9935]

...

[@B-ot2xx]

@@vitalost9935 If you’d like to say something I’d love to hear it. TotK is my favorite game, and if you have a more positive insight on the soundtrack, I’d love to hear some feedback to my criticism! 👍

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

_"Kicking puppies is okay actually so long as I do not deal with my insecurities if admitting a game I like is awful."_

[@Matamanene]

Felt a lot of this the past few months with Baldur's Gate 3 popularity amongst my friends. It just bounces right off me and annoys me in a lot of ways while they all love it. I tell them I'm not a fan when they ask why I don't want to play it and while I try to avoid saying objective things to avoid arguments, my friends are quick to take the opinions personally and they try to batter their opinions into me to 'convert' me or something, bolstered by being a majority.

[@bahamutRG]

same here with Elden Ring. those types of games just fundamentally don't appeal to me aesthetically or mechanically. i'm glad a lot of people enjoy them, but nothing makes me want to play them or has any appeal to me whatsoever.

[@RipleySawzen]

But you'd never call it an objectively bad game. Or even a bad game. It's simply a game not for you.

[@swan-cloud]

@@RipleySawzen what's wrong with calling it a bad game? if you don't like it, it's alright to call a game bad imo

[@RipleySawzen]

@@swan-cloud It's a sign of immaturity and lack of experience with games in general. It's NOT a bad game. You can dislike things that you think are good.

[@swan-cloud]

@@RipleySawzen yeah i don't agree with that, for some people it might be immaturity, but for me it's just admitting that this is all subjective anyway. i guess i can admit that it's very mean for someone to come in and just call something bad/good without even explaining themselves, that is definitely a sign of immaturity.

[@Namadu7]

Relativism is a big subject. I'm on board with a lot of this video, and I think a lot of that comes from my own experience of being neurodivergent... it's sort of a lifetime of people saying, directly or indirectly, that my existence and experiences are wrong just because there are more of them than there are of me. That said, I feel like the "kicking puppies" analogy could have been explained much better; to anyone who doesn't already agree with you, it may come off the wrong way. I agree that it's a subjective statement (albeit one that hopefully most of us agree with, since we humans tend to prefer not causing suffering to our fellow animals), but it does sound a bit too close to "you should reconsider your stance on kicking puppies". It comes off as somewhat more inflammatory and invites more of a conversation about morality and ethics, which I don't think this video is prepared to handle. When it comes to opinions and preferences on things like video game graphics or fun, though? That's a lot less troublesome. I, for one, really like hearing why people enjoy something that I don't - and why they might dislike something that I like! As long as we recognize that each other's perspectives are valid, there's not really much to lose from talking about it.

[@charliesmithers53]

Us humans really do have a tendency to disappear up our own backsides.

[@fizzymilk2246]

As someone who is borderline obsessed with discussing and reviewing media this subject is so so interesting to me, and I totally agree with what you're saying. It has taken me a long time to realise what is actually helpful and important about discussing/reviewing anything for me, which is developing and understanding my own perspective and presenting it honestly. It's easy to get caught up in trying to have the "correct" opinion on art, which in my experience just shuts down discussion and leads to completely unnecessary conflict. Reviewing media can be a very personal process, it has just as much to do with the reviewer and their experiences as it does with the piece of art itself and the context/history it exists in. ANYWAY! Great video, I'm so up for more shortform video essay content in the future! As for something that I love in a videogame, I love a good memorable and atmospheric setting to explore, especially one that makes good use of interactivity (otherwise I wouldn't have found this channel to begin with!).

[@bullet3417]

Wonder how you can explain if 1 game becomes popular and other game falls if objectivity is dumb?

[@Shralla]

On that note, the original Deus Ex is the greatest game of all time and I would love to see you cover it ❤

[@revolverocelot3741]

He would absolutely love it

[@PretzelYT]

I loved Human Revolution and what bit I played of Mankind Divided. I will play the original some day!!!

[@alphashadow8793]

I also think trying not to take other peoples opinions too personally is a good piece of advice, and I mean this in a "someone simply saying your favorite game is bad isn't a personal attack on you and your opinion, it's just their own opinion on the game" way. It's a two-sided thing.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

This is the one thing I wish was mentioned in the video, it might sound obvious, but this video is all about 'the obvious'!

[@Velindian]

I think things like "noun/subject/factor is bad" can be framed objectively, but you have to define the scope in which it fits. When a critic says "This writing is bad" usually means the writing is considered bad within the scope of the critic's judgement. Ultimately it doesn't mean much outside of understanding the critic's opinion. So if it isn't framed with additional info explaining the things that make it bad, it's just a statement of opinion without the "in my opinion" part. Making it subjective. Adding "in my opinion" makes the statement objective as "within their opinion" is the scope that is defined. So it's 100% just the way people express their opinions while framing it with wording that would be objective if "bad" was a objective measurement. The problem is "bad" isn't and objectively measurable thing unless you define the scope in which "bad" applies. Since "bad" is a relative term usually used to describe something unwelcome or of low/poor quality. Both of which are based on feelings of the individual defining what is "bad". The critic's judgement is the part that is subjective, but when rating something within that system of judgement it becomes an objectively measurable thing. The same thing can be rated differently in a different system of judgement, but ultimately both ratings are objectively measurable when the scope is defined as being "in their opinions". That being said, if you can objectively define whether the game is good or bad within that standard, it isn't always useful for the function of knowing if a game is good for another person (unless they have similar feelings on certain things). That's why it's probably smarter to include information objectively measurable outside of the scope of one's own opinion if you want to discuss why you like/dislike something with someone else. Many people don't do this as they assume people understand they are framing such relative terms within the scope of their opinions. However, people can't always make that assumption because they don't see terms like "bad" as relative. Leading to them ascribing an objective standard to a word that was never meant to be used in a truly objective way on its own.

[@bahamutRG]

people kind of use "objective" like the modern usage of "literally" at times although i think it's a bit more pernicious in a time when we are inundated in fake news and propaganda and people doing as Sartre described (the same kind of people he described, sadly) and being "playful" with reality to malicious ends. of course, in the context of video games, it's not a problem because video games are just games, but it's a little scary when people fundamentally disagree on what is, well, "objective" reality. although even if people disagree with my subjective discomfort on a grander scale and to that extent, i also do just find it annoying how heated people do get with people not sharing their opinions about video games (or any consumptive mass media) or how combative and hostile they get about it.

[@Conk4668]

Preach, good sir

[@kaylabingus]

Pretzel really said "You think you just fell out of a coconut tree"

[@SuperMaster10]

Thank you for making this, I've been saying this whenever it comes up lately. Art is subjective, and our perception and enjoyment of it is as such too. "Half-Life 2 has a realistic art style" but is that good or bad is our call as a subjective opinion. I think sometimes people use objectively whatever to state a formula that works or does not. Like, oh a movie needs to have a three arc structure, or a game MUST use the standard control system all games now have. But is that really true? Metal Gear Solid had a completely different control system up until MGSV and it's still playable and feels good to many people. Of course one can also not like this system. But sometimes things that should work for every reason on paper, just doesn't. And sometimes something that should never work due to every reason on paper, it does. I feel like the whole calling opinions objective thing started out of some people on reddit trying to make their opinions sound more important than they actually are and it just spiraled off to common internet lingo there. Which is also ridicilious if that's the case cuz your opinion matters, TO YOU. As long as it matters to you, that's all that matters, you don't need to fluff it up for anyone. And yeah people seem to wanna break art to bare essentials you can categorize and just file like they're a type of office document. But that never works in my opinion, since it's well, art and subjective. That's why a scoring system like IGN, Metacritic etc. never works (like that one shovelware getting a higher score than God Hand on IGN). And ratings, especially on a site like metacritic or IMDB is born out of PEOPLE's votes, a hundred, thousand of subjective opinions coming from fellow human beings. Yet these scores are treated like they're a statement of fact about it's quality. Why should their opinion hold more authority over yours? Also trying to break art into an "established" standard like it's a machine pumping out numbers is so boring. P.S. I know you're using it to mean "older than certain game" but I hate the word "dated" cuz of how often it's thrown without a thought lmao. Dated has a bad connotation with it, like it's the second way to say "outdated", yknow?

[@MatrixEvolution17]

When people say things like "this game has dated graphics" or "this game has aged" it kind of irks me because it feels like they are being subjective under the illusion of objectivity. Having "dated graphics" isn't a bad thing in itself. All things age! You will one day age!

[@Shoopuffishgud]

Tl,dr: most people love using words they don't understand.

[@warrior8034]

All I can get from this video is that if you think that kicking puppies is bad, you're lying to yourself (this is a joke btw)

[@franklinllanes770]

Three Questions... I think Arknights asks for my time, but also respects it. I enjoy its writing and story building. I enjoy its long, meandering conversations. I know I'm the minority there. On the other hand, I think I enjoy this video.

[@i8dacookies890]

You gotta watch CJ The X to get the galaxy brained takes on subjectivity vs objectivity.

[@German_Knight99]

Well, you're right that everything is subjective in some way, but I think objectivity can be determined by the basic understanding of the majority. For example, the thing with the puppies. I think that if you say that puppy kicking is bad then 99% of people will agree with you so it's as close to objectivity as you can get. Of course there are exceptions to everything but there are certain moral standards that are supported by the majority of the population. So yes, there is no absolute objectivity but you can get close to objectivity even if you can never reach it. It's like perfection. Perfection can never be reached because perfection is only a arrow to show you the right direction

[@DrPumpkinz]

Gonna answer the opening questions before getting into the video. What do you think of the last video game you played? The last game I played was Bubsy 3D, and it was... fine. Inoffensive. It's a game. What aspects of the game make you think that? Bubsy's quips are charming, I guess. Shooting atoms into other atoms to get a chain of bonus points is genuinely fun, like jumping on a row of enemies in Mario, but it's soured by the act of actually lining up your shot being super finicky and annoying. Other than the quips and the atom shooting, everything else is just... functional. Boring. It's not bad, it's just not interesting. Would another person who played that game agree with you on the quality of those aspects? I imagine the opinion of the movement being functional is probably an unpopular one. Someone who sees "oh I need to use tank controls to walk to the side" and doesn't experiment further would likely have a frustrating time. Jumping lets you move sideways without having to turn, which makes things way less annoying (when you aren't trying to line up atoms, anyway). Jumping also feels faster than walking. I don't know if it actually is, but it feels like it, likely from some combination of reducing lag by pointing the camera to the ground and vectoring.

[@greenhowie]

Being able to accumulate points has a lot to do with it. People want their comments and videos to be praised, if they keep things short and divisive they are rewarded more than if they spend the time deliberating varying opinions and understanding perspectives that they may disagree with. It's a psychological reinforcement thing I guess. Also this comment bored me while I was writing it. I like Blitzball though so maybe I'm not too smart.

[@liirumlaarum6529]

this is a great video, but man when that no mans sky cow fell off the cliff at 6:06 i lost my shit lmao

[@PretzelYT]

😢

[@vaelegoro7782]

Kicking puppies objectively makes people become John Wick

[@UsuarioRandom-tf5ie]

Agree, good night sir.

[@PretzelYT]

😴🛌

[@nicholasc3905]

Love your channel! Can you do a Resident evil 2 remake world tour? I'd love to see tour take on the RPD

[@PretzelYT]

I've considered it, I really liked playing through that game. Though I'd kinda like to play through the original and make a video on that before Remake.

[@nicholasc3905]

@PretzelYT ohhh ok either way I look forward to your videos !

[@TheTrueSpottedStripe]

Despite Bethesda's reputation, I love their games because they give me a sense of wonder I don't experience with other games, I've also created several characters with them that are near and dear to my heart and I've essentually made The Elder Scrolls and Fallout my own in a way. It is so easy to fall into the trap of "No, you're wrong you just don't have the mental capacity to understand them" when someone disagrees with me. I'm glad I found this video.

[@AliceLoverdrive]

Bethesda games need a very distinct mindset to approach them, as sandboxes to mess around rather than, well, a normal gaming experience. That said, I can't blame players for expecting an epic storyline when every single their game after Morrowind immediately throws the player into a high stakes do-or-die scenario. I think in an attempt to make their games more similar to other RPGs they made a mistake.

[@looneytoastywolf]

i love your vids man this is such a breath of fresh air All my yes to this vid!!

[@static7579]

Before watching the video (a sin I know) I probably agree with most of what you're going to say. I still however think it's important to try to have some broad standard by which we judge things though, I just wish more people would recognize it as a construction instead of slinging around the word "objective" like a rhetorical cudgel. Edit: Okay nah, this video was like 10x more based than I was expecting it to be! Bringing up emotivism? I nutted, and the advocacy for changing the discourse about games and art at the end was chefs kiss, well done Pretz!

[@Pastramii-n1k]

Yeah, having an "objective" standard in video games is really useful but people need to realize that it's a social construct based on popular consensus and not an actual hard fact. I wonder if there's a better word for it.

[@static7579]

@@Pastramii-n1k The word or concept I believe you're looking for is intersubjective consensus

[@Pastramii-n1k]

@@static7579 Thanks, that explains perfectly what I was trying to say!

[@nellancaster]

I think the turning point of me thinking of games in a subjective way is with my experience with both the original Castlevania 64 and its updated version, Legacy of Darkness. Sure, the latter _objectively_ has more content, more story, what is essentially Castlevania's take on RE's HUNK Mode (which is still super fun btw)... but I still find myself gravitating towards the original. I dunno, it probably has something to do with the climbing controls. That is a layer of counterintuitive subjectivity (I enjoy CV64 more than LoD) on top of counterintuitive subjectivity (I like Castlevania 64 - supposedly a widely disliked game in the franchise), and from then on out I just go "eh, screw it, I like what I like", and be content with it.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

My experience playing Castlevania 64 and Legacy of Darkness was actually a big moment for me too! I think I prefer LoD to CV64 but just having experienced one of the most controversial games in the Castlevania franchise and finding it to be amongst my favorites really changed the way I see games. Both are enjoyable games but their slower pace, clunky platforming, and clunky combat makes them fail at basically everything the Castlevania games are beloved for so of course fans of the franchise wouldn't like them.

[@sergiomairos23]

I mostly agree although I consider one component of games (exclusive to them) completely objective, with no exception, as it is never an artist decision. That would be the performance. It's either objectively good or objectively bad. Even if you want to make a game look choppy (on purpose) it's always better to have the game run well first and then give the illusion of bad performance.

[@Alien_Bob]

I appreciate this very much

[@TheRealPOTUSDavidByrd]

Everything is subjective as we all experience existence through the lens of our own perception

[@snintendog]

Everything is Objective. Anything else is you just lying to yourself. There is only ONE TRUTH.

[@hectordiazrodriguez7294]

Nope because if tha would truth, people would not be congregate in religions or fandoms would not be exist in first place, or scientific unions and states would not be created in first place. There arre things that are subjective but much other are objetive.

[@QTwoSix]

Quite literally incorrect. God made this world, and when He did so, he created absolute truth. You are lying to yourself

[@DecarabiaSMT]

Objectively, this is a video Subjectively, i liked it :)

[@djschachthutte]

Hey, I have a suggestion for more world tour videos: Take a look at L.A. Noire, this game has lots of things to explore, as well as Mafia II :)

[@ispepsiokay411]

The Call of Duty Zombies "community" could learn a thing or a million from this video

[@Bboy10110]

The most recent game I finished was Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney: Justice for All. & personally I enjoyed it, but not as much as the first game. In my personal ranking I gave it a 6/10. My big issues with the game come down to the writing, a lot of it fell flat for me, a lot of the jokes didn't make me laugh, a lot of the serious moments didn't hit me very hard & over all I wasn't a fan of how the characters were written overall. The other issues I had with it was the actual logic of the cases, it was difficult for me to making the jumps in logic that the game wanted me to make in order to progress, not as intuitive for me & just hard to piece together.

[@theMifyoo]

There is a bit missing from your translation. When I say "kicking puppies is bad." what I mean is "Kicking puppies is bad, in my opinion and heretics will be purged."

[@percher4824]

Honestly? I think some people are too subjective when it comes to videogames. So many people are willing to ignore the faults of their favorite games and just brush them off without acknowledging that the game they love isn't perfect. Anyone who's capable of gushing about a game and agreeing with people taking a huge dump all over it is worth listening to. The reason why it matters at all is because everyone constantly tries to sell games to each other, be it through reviews on Steam or otherwise. Steam reviews especially are incredibly unhelpful most of the time because very few positive reviews are willing to be truthful about what faults the game has- that's why I always immediately search for negative reviews instead.

[@hastur2905]

Extremely based. I just think the best conclusion at the end would be that people should just learn already that "every opinion someone expresses about anything is subjective, even if they say the opposite". No one should be tip toeing around their true feelings about media because the internet mob would be mad at them

[@hectordiazrodriguez7294]

Opinion is not the same than argument, not everthing is subjetive, it just in the case of art in entertiment in general, is in fact subjective.

[@lagarona851]

Nice. 3 half assed push ups ur gonna go far kid

[@bananashoplifter3440]

Yea... no. This video sucked.

[@ruzgar1372]

deep criticism

[@dingo1547]

I’m not agreeing with you, but his comparison to daggerfall sucked. Because he wasn’t even playing Daggerfall. He was playing a fan remake of that game in a modern engine. It released after Skyrim and was made to increase the accessibility of Daggerfall. Sure I like Daggerfall, but pretending that Daggerfall Unity is the same game as the one Bethesda made in the 90s is just plain wrong.

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

Why?

[@JamieBainbridge]

I also prefer original graphics instead of "high resolution" packs. They're just never as cohesive to me as the original art. I'm well aware this is my preference and it doesn't seem to be the common opinion. I am fine with that.

[@officegossip]

I’ve always liked a good ol thumbs up or thumbs down myself.

[@MangusMangoman]

I always say to my friends that punctuations are dumb and in my opinion the best way to rate a game is who would you recommend it to and with how much enthusiasm. In my opinion a lot of games that are considered the "masterpieces of the new age" aren't that engaging, but I can see it being extremely pleasing for the crowd that writes reviews. It isn't bad that they like those at all, but it kinda seems to be the reason why games that are focus on cinematography immediately get advantages over some genres (like racing, sports, family friendly, fighting, strategy...) when it comes to awards.

[@Asgoritolin]

Being enthusiastic about a game doesn't mean anything. You can be enthusiastic about building sand castles, but that is no guarantee the other person will like it.

[@MangusMangoman]

@@Asgoritolin My ñ might be showing and I might have used the wrong word. What I mean by enthusiasm is more how sure I am you will like it when I recommend it rather than how much did I like it while recommending it. It still isn't a objective metric for good, but it is a way that approach preferences over intangible "quality".

[@bahaazamzam1529]

isn't saying objectivity is dumb and stupid is kinda aganist the soul of the video? It shoud be objectivity is dumb and stupid in my opinion...

[@Pastramii-n1k]

The title needs to be snappy and over the top to get attention and gain views, unfortunately. Also the video isn't actually criticizing objectivity either, it's criticizing the way people frequently use the word in gaming spaces in an objectively wrong way.

[@bahaazamzam1529]

@@Pastramii-n1k Good point

[@snintendog]

@@Pastramii-n1k objective clickbait. Bahhzamzam is correct as it goes against his point to an extreme degree and this comes off as a cashcow.

[@Pastramii-n1k]

@@snintendog Yeah, I would inarguably call the title clickbait But bahhzamzam's suggestion undermines the point even more in the context of what the video is actually about. There's no "in my opinion", the examples given are just not objective statements. A more accurate title that's still plenty attention grabbing would be something like "Gamers don't know how to use the word 'objectively' correctly"

[@percher4824]

​@@snintendog You're overexaggerating. The video is mostly targeted at people who take objectivity too far and it gets the point across just fine. Calling this a cashcow is just plain insulting, really.

[@QTwoSix]

This video is objectively bad and it made me feel subjectively sad.

[@AlfredFJones1776]

This is great. Now when annoying New Vegas fanboys start blathering about objectivity I can just send them this and ignore everything else they say.

[@QTwoSix]

Ah so you will send them a wrong video and then ignore their counter arguments? Quite idiotic I must say

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

RAM (random access mayhem) was the ladt game i played (still a demo currently) it was fun and good:) i think my freinds would agree

[@RomanceDawn17]

I like this as I struggle a lot with this concept, I for exemple HATE skyrim

[@dylstarling8649]

Wow, I was actually thinking of this recently, the idea of objective quality in art is one the pops up to irritate me from time to time and I don't know why I let it. It's a nice to see this after a few days of wrecking my head, thank you

[@authorbat5562]

At least someone said it.

[@dogameda]

The last lines you said in this video apply for ANYTHING in life and should be a lesson to be learn by EVERY ONE! "Understand why someone might have a different opinion than you. Spend some time thinking about how to communicate your own perspective"

[@SHDW-nf2ki]

I strongly dislike these "dadaist" objectivity is dead philosphies because if you wanna consider everything art I'm going to start asking you about the artistic merit of that uncomfy bench you sat on while waiting for the bus.

[@mausegetlit363]

Its about finding balance been object and subject

[@Coxick]

In my opinion, Need for Speed Underground 2 is mediocre and overrated

[@lxarchives5482]

Isn't "a tweet just got 3000 likes saying it's worse thing ever" an objective statement? It can't be not an objective claim if it's independently verifiable fact? 6:30

[@Scribblersys]

Objectively the best video game is Tetris

[@thenorseguy2495]

If someone love a video game it dosen’t matter what other think. I would probaly hate playing Daggerfall. But if someone else think it’s the best game ever made I respect that. I think the secret of Monkey Island are one of the best game ever made. I also loved good classic games like Space Invaders and PacMan. I even love old games like GTA 5😂 I also love this KZbin channel 🫶

[@FARDEENKHANQWE123]

2:20 i fully disagree with you there with every particle that makes me... whatever year you started from cant ever and should never be the standard for which you judge graphics of other games by.that makes no sense.

[@PretzelYT]

I agree with you, there's a lot of older games that look great. My point with that was that technologically, Skyrim is a lot more graphically intensive than Daggerfall. Not that it looked "better" or anything, because that's obviously subjective.

[@FARDEENKHANQWE123]

ah i see.

[@ChristianConspirator]

Disagree. I believe Todd Howard Command theory (THC because you have to be high to believe it). This is the theory that Todd Howard's commands make things objectively true. It just works.

[@rayquaza1245]

I totally agree with this video. This mindset is super present within the "critic" community. I think they are trying to pursue this high minded goal of objectivity, seeking to gain a level of legitimacy, above that of just some guy giving his opinion on something. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being just a guy giving his opinion, but don't act like you're some sort of academic proving a thesis. This mindset is especially problematic when reviewing/critiquing art like games, music, writing, movies, etc. It's just antithetical to what art is as a human medium. Also, even when they are talking about something objective, they don't acknowledge that they are applying it subjectively. For example a glitch in a video game might really dampen the experience for one person. But for someone else, it could have 0 impact on their overall enjoyment of the game.

[@Victini0510]

yeah

[@vaultdweller94]

are you ok

[@PretzelYT]

yea i think so

[@TransAce92]

Because it's easier for people to say a game is good or bad versus explaining why a game is flawed or a masterpiece for xyz reasons, whether it's getting a point across quickly or a long explanation.

[@xweert711]

I think you might have missed the point. He isn't talking about people just saying their opinion, and moreso is talking about how people online love to present their opinions as objective facts and judgements on a product instead of it being a subjective opinion of that individual

[@yourcommander3412]

People spend 8 hours of their day; being objective. There is going to be some bleed-over.

[@snintendog]

Objectivity is smart and useful. Subjectivity is stupid and worthless. There is nothing subjectiviety tells me that i can use to infer for myself before diving in. "Daggerfall is an older game but had top of the line graphics for the time." Is Objectively true yet denotes the decayed aspect of the graphics in comparison to what is considered modern. "Bubsy has poor gameplay design." Is also objectively true regardless of time or experience. "Sonic Adventure 2 has Poor sound quality and the story is all over the place." Once again true and objective. Subjectivity is "Daggerfall feels nice and warm its graphics are great." Muddy. All i know is you liked the graphics and provided an emotion to you. It didnt tell me anything about them. "bubsy was a blast to play." Objectively means nothing and tells me you liked its gameplay but not WHY this would lead to me to wonder WTF you are on about when i play it and find nothing but issues. "Sonic adventure 2 voiceacting is cheesy and but its story is unique." tells me Nothing the VA work might be lower quality or just some bad line delivery but it doesnt seem that the story is effected by it. Subjectivity leads to angry misinformed customers. objectivity leads to Informed and customers that will form their own opinions. Nothing good comes from subjectiviety unless it follows objectivity.

[@MixerRenegade95]

Well said!

[@PretzelYT]

I don't disagree with most of what you said. I would say almost everything you said in the first paragraph IS objective, except for the fact that Sonic Adventure 2's story is "all over the place" and bubsy having "bad" gameplay design. I guess the broader point of this video is to help people consciously understand the line between objective and subjective. You might call bubsy bad, but someone might think it's good. There's a disconnect in the words we use that leads to us talking past each other. I'm a big emotion guy when it comes to games, the vibes they have mean a lot to me. And it's really hard to quantify that objectively, so I'll always appreciate someone's personal perspective over what the game factually IS. Like the way the graphics, art style, gameplay, music, all of that, the way they come together can vary greatly person to person. I see where you're coming from though.

[@AlfredFJones1776]

I’m not reading all that.

[@snintendog]

@@AlfredFJones1776 Nothing new from the lazy.

[@matthewjones6786]

I used to be so exacting about what I would classify as art based on objectivity. But more and more often, I would find exceptions to the "rules" I had created, art that I fell in love with despite understanding that the art is "bad". Then I realized, _other people_ are also making those exceptions, all the time. Everyone likes something, so who am I to take that away from them? I can still disagree and maintain my own sense of objectivity, but I can't rightly force others to conform to it. Great discussion, Pretzel!

[@gaming_bigfoot]

nothing is true nothing is real nothing is true nothing is real nothing is true nothing is real nothing is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the end is never the dead to take the dead to take the dead to take the dead to take the dead to take the dead And no I'm not ok

[@Conk4668]

Crazy? I was crazy once. They put me in a room. An endless room. My hands disappeared. No hands make me crazy.

[@nexothepianist4337]

yeah this video resonated with me. I played Starfield at launch. I loved it. It helped me go through a very hard part of my life, and it will always have a place in my heart. But I always felt that I couldn’t like it because everyone was telling me that this game is trash and all

[@МишаСав-ц9ь]

Okay, Mister " "Kicking puppies Is bad" is an opinion and NOT objective fact". I believe that Racism is actually GREAT! And that we should judge everyone based on their skin color! What's that? That's an OBJECTIVLY terrible statement and anyone who claims it is a horrible person? Nuh, that's just your opinion bro... 😉

[@kenetickups6146]

Not at all

[@newdawnsets7076]

I was giving you a chance to make a point but the moment you claimed that saying "Kicking puppies is bad." is subjective made me realize that this is just the same mindset that led to fascism and other horrors across history.