Odon-Pt 1: The Qur'an came from a pool of earlier texts!

[@xorteqirdim426]

As an Ezidi-Kurd myself, from North Kurdistan. We are much aware of the memoste (teacher) Odon, hv said during this lecture. We do know that so much stories has been hijacked from our history, language and culture, by islamist arabs, and they put it in them quren or in them islamic sources over the centuries... Now time for great reveal smokescreen, hocus-pocus islamic history. Thanks you both

[@Rus-bw2oq]

It is completely the other way round. Ezidi Kurds hijacked alot from Islamic sources. Muslims hijacked nothing from you.

[@xorteqirdim426]

@@Rus-bw2oq Ezidisim 7000yrs (seven thousands) old monotheistic religion, and our civilisation goes back to 14000 (fourteen thousands ) ... How about the pagan quren? Just about 1000 year, and they fixed many hundreds of times over the centuries, the last fixed of the quren in the year of 1984. ( just 2 yrs older then me) 😛😛😛 Most importantly, where they stolen all the stories? From Ezidi, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity 🤣🤣🤣 And still couldn't fixed them pegan 🌜moongod-Lah🌛 still before starting do anything you pagan says the "name of lah" "b-ism-LAH" Still, kissing/licking a stone 🕋👺 for forgiveness, and the stone is the most holy element in your pagan rituals islam🤪🤪🤪

[@Rus-bw2oq]

@@xorteqirdim426 14000 years!!! realy? looks like you have no idea of what you are talking about. Islam borrowed from Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrian religion but from your Ezidi religion? no way, so stop spreading your Kurdish lies and nonsense.

[@xorteqirdim426]

@@Rus-bw2oq "lies"? we don't need that... islam is the lie. As old saying "without lies islam will dies" islam a complete bs...

[@Rus-bw2oq]

@@xorteqirdim426 All religions are based on lies and fabrications, including your religion.

[@borneandayak6725]

This channel is good. I'm learning different kind of historical reasoning about Islam and Quran. Enrich my knowledge...

[@senecaknowsbest8380]

Refreshing to hear honest historical research. Far better of course than Muslim researchers who seem to avoid honest discussion altogether

[@thepoorsultan5112]

🤣🤣🤣 He is blatantly lying

[@childofgod4862]

@@thepoorsultan5112 What good is in Quran? Nothing! Your Allah is teaching you to speak lies in sura 16:106 Your Allah is teaching you speak lies as Taqqiya in sura 3:28 and Your Allah does not mind if you take false Oath as in sura 2:225 So what is left???

[@sushillugun6462]

Yes Odon is back with more material that Dr. Smith will sieve for us and we will learn more. as we saw how and what Thomas has given us... Thank you Dr. Jay Smith. and your people

[@yakovmatityahu]

Welcome back Odon once again we love to hear from french school once again...Thanks Jay and Odon.

[@user55lovesfr95]

Thank you gentlemen for educating us about this conundrum.

[@ADayWithoutYesterday]

I came to the same conclusion on reading Rodwell's translation of the Quran with all his footnotes. That is it is impossible to read the Quran without having a Bible in your hand. The Quran is just a very, very short summary of some Biblical stories.

[@wishyouthebest9222]

Wich are bad summaries and strange "interpretations".

[@MrCheesywaffles]

Biblical fan stories, unless your bible includes a good few extra texts including heretical writings that utterly contradict the traditional biblical canon.

[@samuelmorales2344]

The Quran has a lot of esoteric material so it can't be from Allah as revelation to mankind.

[@islamaboyy588]

So ........it's Hinduism lol

[@urbandsouza7279]

Hi Jay what thomas and odon presenting here is man landing beyond the horizon . Pure gold of research

[@Joelbop]

When I read the Quran the first time I thought it sounded like an instructional narrative/text like mentioned by Oden and others.

[@sheikhboyardee556]

It's a cobbled together list of stolen information from a variety of sources. A religion created for political reasons. The Quran is impossible to read as it makes no sense in any language.

[@isaackibebew2573]

HEY Dr jay its yisihak from Ethiopia addis ababa its been 2 years since i started watching your video its so great God bless you and whats it helps me engaging muslim and i heard you saying your training pastor here in Ethiopia which is exciting i am having difficulty finding your power points if it is possible i wish to get them God bless you Dr

[@nathanwhite7765]

For the people who want a list of synoptic surah. Anthony Rogers just put out a video with surah vers numbers to compare.

[@Road2Heaven123]

Jesus took away our sins so we can be clean and holy King Jesus gives His commands and teachings which we follow now to live holy Christ in us, we in Christ God in us / God with us It is all about the Kingdom of God and King Jesus To enter the Kingdom (baptism into Christ) To abide in the Kingdom (by abiding in Christ - doing His commands out of love John 15) His laws are centered around the sermon on the mount To inherit the Kingdom by starting the good fight of faith till the end, doing good deeds for our King as a holy nation Loving God, Loving Christ The Gospel is called the Kingdom of God in the Gospel

[@GizmoFromPizmo]

I took a couple of years in my bible study where all I did was read and re-read the Psalms and Proverbs. Suddenly I realized that some of the Psalms repeat themselves. I never knew that before. I don't remember anybody ever telling me that but I looked up the passage, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" and was surprised to see that it was written in two of the Psalms (14 and 53). After that, I noticed that there were other Psalms that did that. God shows me cool stuff all the time in the scriptures. He's such a good Teacher.

[@khaledalothman4314]

No it's your mind telling you it's bullshit

[@suburbanbanshee]

Yes, there are a lot of Biblical references back and forth, often making a point, and often referencing what was included in the original, right after the referenced quote. It took me a long time to realize that was what the footnotes in Bibles were talking about, because the referenced passages often get translated differently from the passage quoting them, in modern Bibles! That's why it's useful to hit up the Hebrew or the Greek, to see what's going on.

[@ngashmir]

I love how DR. Jay moderates these conversations with the S.I.N Sifters.

[@jarnpr1316]

Odom, we need to talk about the Gassanids and the lakhmids, as these two groups were arab confederacies employed by the Byzantine and Persian empires, respectively, as buffers against central Arabia and antagobist corresponding empire. The gassanids were Bizantine Christian Arabs dynasties and the Lakhmids as well but from meeidional mesopotamia. These two groups probably joined forces with the Mohammad Armies. So, all the Christian elements within the Quran had to come from them. I am sure there are well known royalty from each of these two groups that must be cited in the islamic sources somehow. As Muhammad once said that religion and wisdom comes from Yemem, I believe that after the Yemeni mass migration in 250AD Northward, zoroastrian/manichaean/Jewish religious traditions elements were injected into the Quran as well.

[@michaels4255]

I strongly suspect that some of the Jews who, rather than convert to Roman Christianity, fled Palestine after Heraclius ordered them to convert or leave following their most recent revolt during the Persian invasion were instrumental in promoting an monotheistic movement among the Arabs who could assist them in recapturing Jerusalem from the Romans. I propose this because it would explain the strong Jewish influence on Islam. So far these arguments by various persons, although they make some very good points, are a little too intent on finding a Christian source for anti Trnitarianism and rejection of the deity of Christ, yet Judaism, which was much more prevalent in the Near East than Arianism, explains both these two points and much else besides which is otherwise inexplicable. Of course, I might have the Jewish influence too early; it might have come somewhat later, but certainly it was present by the time of Abd al Malik.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@michaels4255 This is exactly what I think I have found in the quranic text: there were "some Jews" who had a very strong influence on the Arab faction that took Jerusalem around 638, and alos had a very strong influence on the making of the Quran (hence on the making of Islam). Christian turmoil about the Trinity (and so on) had also an influence, but it cannot explain the "jewishness" of the quranic text, and it also cannot explain the conquest of Jerusalem, the rebuilding of its Temple and the expectation for Jesus to come back as a political messiah.

[@urbandsouza7279]

Hi odon it is nice to c you back.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Hello there

[@RoarT19]

My Dear Brother Jay Smith Thank you so much , For your work 💪

[@ankur7773]

NO DOUBT 100%ISLAM FAKE RELIGION

[@jerryallright77]

Thanks Dr Jay and Odon. I learn a lot from your videos series. I been lazy , but I'll make an effort rewatch and written down all the information and can share it to my Muslims friends

[@simonhengle8316]

Great to have Odon back, between Odon and Thomas they have the Quran and Islam wrapped up, thank you

[@michaels4255]

How do they explain the obvious borrowings from Judaism? The Umayyads may have been heretical Christians, but Islam as we know it is clearly modeled on Judaism with minimal concessions to Christianity.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@michaels4255 I have my hypothesis... It will be unpacked in the next videos

[@michaels4255]

@@OdonLafontaine Looking forward to them!

[@hiview44]

Great to see you again Oden. 👍

[@pvdguitars2951]

Vive les Belges!!! Merci Odon. Back to serious : this is such great work. Amazing

[@coffeecup7084]

I missed Odon. Thank you so much Jay and Odon

[@andrewstoltzfus3404]

Thanks Dr. jay smith and Odon. God bless looking forward to more video's.

[@dinosaur0073]

We do appreciate your effort in collecting the history of Qura'an without affecting Muslims feelings...Great...!!!

[@noniusreccaredus]

I don't see how it's not affecting your feelings the claim being made that quran is not revealed from allah nor it's preserved but it's a collection of rewritten old Christian manuscripts.

[@dinosaur0073]

Believe: accept that (something) is true, especially "without proof". "the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"

[@foreignstarz]

Who cares about Muslim feelings

[@SzTz100]

@@noniusreccaredus You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fingers and say, "That's the bad guy."

[@kongziarusu8518]

Odon ftw! Can’t wait for his book to come out in English!

[@amitkumar-wj8gn]

Jay still has the "sifter" in the background lol....hahahahahhahahaahhahah. amazing.

[@chrisbarber2389]

An example of the soup, is the story of Jesus's birth. Luke says Jesus was born in a manger. The Qur'an says he was born under a fig tree. The Qur'an also says that Jesus could speak in the cradle. The book of Enoch says that it was Noah who could speak in the cradle not Jesus. The Qur'an is clearly not from God but a concoction of stories from different sources.

[@alonzoharris6730]

Your bible is not authentic.

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@alonzoharris6730 As is being proven the Quran is a mess Alonzo.. It’s completely fabricated made up mess .. I can’t believe that people would be so silly as to try to defend the obvious nonsense in the Quran..

[@slippingsnake]

@@trevorgriffiths5611" As is being proven the Quran is a mess" lol, it depends on how you look at the quran. For me it is a historical book representing the thinking of it's time. But if you take it as the word of God and a message for all mankind and all time then it "proven mess" and I would add the accusation of Blasphemie :)

[@AndiWidjaja]

@@alonzoharris6730 where is the authentic one then? Quran can't stand on each own without the bible, so where is it, abdool?

[@MU-we8hz]

@@alonzoharris6730 how is your 1924 quran?

[@michaelnance8319]

Scholars have been saying for years that most of the chapters in the Quran add to the Christian book. The Quran has chapters that add more information to the Christian Chapters of Revelations and yet no one hasn’t make a video about it nor wrote a book about it. That’s one thing that I pick up when reading the Quran and Christian Bible. There are many verses that connect to the Christian Bible to Revelations. Which for me means that Early Muslims Scholars were into Revelations as well as Muhammed who in Islamic narrative was well aware of the Christian narrative of Revelations. Since his first wife read him the Christian Bible every night before he went to sleep. The Quran in it’s only twisted way adds to the Bible, but, yet, not so much coming from God but, Man. The Quran is nothing more than mostly rejected Christian verses that were never accept in the Christian Bible and put together by Arabs Christians and later alter from it’s Aramaic code text by each new Muslim Caliphate leaders and Religious leaders over a period of Six Hundred years until 1420 AD when the Modern Quran first appears. The Quran is not a stand alone book. Odon is pretty much right about the Quran might had at one time meant to be part of the Bible and became it’s own book when Islam was forming. The early Muslims were Gnostic in nature and Aramaic was still mostly spoken even during Prophet Muhammed time among most Arabs until the Eighth Century.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Most people that read the Quran do not know anything that has been written between the Gospels and the Quran... All the apocryphons, the homilies, the apocalypses etc. Apart from the project of the conquest of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of its Temple, I do not find anything really new in the Quran. Every idea, every concept had already been developed before

[@michaelnance8319]

@@OdonLafontaine Yes! “Agree.” Take in consideration of the End times verses should be further look at when compared to the Christian narrative of Revelations. Like I mention there are verses from the Quran when put next to the Christian verses add more context. Maybe Muslim Scholars has a reason or it’s just simple Human error in judgment. My theory is the Muslims Scholars of the later tenth century created a Islamic narrative from Revelations but, made it in a series of verses when added to the Christian verses of certain Revelation verses created a new context that wasn’t or shouldn’t exist in the first place. Maybe I’m looking at a dead end scenario. But I can’t be the only individual to have come across this puzzle and ask a similar question.

[@julietabraham476]

Always a pleasure listening to the savvy Frenchman, and the American Gentleman.Yes hands down the Quran is a rich broth of vital ingredients from JudeoChristianity pertaining to the region, circumstantial evidences, even critical reactions of the audience to the teacher which led to modification of verses that have a shade of synopsis. Keep going Gentlemen as the sift keeps SIFTING...God bless .

[@tommyrotton9468]

An interesting 'fact' is none of the books the Catholics were promoting for their Testament was used in the Arab source material collection. One has to wonder in what part of the levant were each works popular, because we know in Christianity popular manuscripts were the main sources in different church localities which were then forwarded to Constantinople for inclusion or rejection of the final Testament. I am suspecting Palestine, N Africa, Iran and Iraq were the main places who used the various parts and the final version of manuscripts was selected and edited in Iraq. I say this because by what Alexander said the Persian Empire conquered North Africa and left Arab mercenaries behind. So assuming such a conquest cuts off the flow of story telling from Byzantium/Turkey, where might the preachers be teaching their tales and what local spin might be added to get an audience? Syria might be nearer the source but also near the influence of Turkeys story telling authority, ie less corruption to the original story is possible,

[@chia-yinshih6155]

Reading the disorganized fragments of the Quran has often caused the feeling of DISINTEGRATION in me. Without the backdrop of any reading context, it can feel chaotic….no wonder volumes of tafsir were needed to exist……

[@RajPatel-ri4zn]

So aamazing! Thanks, Odon! And thanks, Jay, for featuring Odon! When will we have Joe on? We really need Joe, Odon and LLoyd to have a dialogue. They'll dial in on the origins of Islam.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

I really enjoy the historical proof that Islam has been fabricated. I’m watching as I sip on an Orange Crush and nibble on a Hershey bar. What a great combination of Education, Entertainment, and high calorie intake. LOL. I pray that the Triune God continues to bless and protect Odon, Dr. Jay, and your teams.

[@sheikhboyardee556]

I'm having a ham sandwich.

[@joecarbone2316]

SIN sifters - SIN = The world’s greatest lie

[@SzTz100]

You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fingers and say, "That's the bad guy."

[@fay1298]

Good to see you Odon. Thanks to you and to Dr Jay. In the Quran there are a number of references where Mohammad was challenged to prove that the Quran was the word of God, but when he recited the verses about “Thul qarnain” and “Sleepers of Ephesus”, he was accused of copying the legends of former people اساطير الأولين. People of the Jahilliyah would not know these stories but Christians and Jews do which proves your point.

[@alonzoharris6730]

The Syriac romance of Alexander is later than the Quran. It's from the 8th century. It's funny that Odon doesn't apply his 'methodology' om these sources. He takes them as granted.

[@slippingsnake]

@@alonzoharris6730 I quote wikipedia on the Alexander Romance: "The original version was composed in the Greek language before 338 AD, when a Latin translation was made. ... ...Between the 4th and the 16th centuries the Alexander Romance was translated into Coptic, Ge'ez, Byzantine Greek, Arabic, Persian, Armenian, Syriac, Hebrew ..." The implication is that these stories were popular and also oraly transmitted and translated.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@slippingsnake The Quran only shares similarity with the Syriac. The Syriac is from the 8th century. You don't even understand the claim.

[@slippingsnake]

@@alonzoharris6730 no mate, it is you who often does not understand what he is talking about. The Quran is a prouct of many sources and influences, Odon even says it in the video. The Alexander Roman appears first in greek, then in latin and other languages. You want to portrait it as Odon says everything in the quran comes from syriac, which is not the case but the opposite, so it doesn't matter when it was available in syriac, the story made it's way in the Quran anyway. It seems that you don't want to understand but I explain the same matter on the work of Luxenberg: he applied the syrio-aramäic on the whole text because he could not predict the outcome and where this methods works an where not. This is not islamic science wher you work with Dogmas and know the answer already before you start because it is always the same: that's what Allah decided, Allah knows best and islamic science always verify that.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@slippingsnake Are you a troll. The claim is that Quran copied the Syriac. But the Syriac is from the 8th century and copied from Muslim commentators who lined dhul qarnain with Alexander. There is no Syrio Aramaic reading. Marijn van Putten completely destroyed that myth with evidence by tracing words back.

[@aevumcorvi2108]

Research Notes: Very important points, we must remember the research inputs of Thomas Alexander, Dan Gibson, the German School, the French and Belgian School, Paul and others contribute to the further research in understanding the Quran. Amalgamation of narratives from: - Christian, Jewish, Gnostic, Legends, Myths, Lectionaries, and Others Key Takeaways: 24:04 "...what I want to insist on, as a kind of response to Thomas, 1) is that the Quran is a book that is mostly circumstantial, there are many many passages, verses that depend on historical circumstances, because we just have to read it to get it. 2) Those passages, those verses, relate to the specific situation of the preacher, 3) and specific situation of his audience. 4) The preacher tells something because he reacts to his audience for example. 5) It is circumstantial, he reacts to historical events, he teaches his audience or has taught himself how react to critics. (Example: Q17: 47) 6) So it cannot be taken as a religious book or a lectionary. 7) We cannot undertand the Quran out of its context. " 33:33 "...some are Christianized, some of them are Jews, they were Judaized. I think you are talking about the soup sort of a melting pot, 8)The middle east is kind a melting pot, especially for the nomad Arab, nomadic Arabs. I think those people knew a bit about Aramaic. And they had been Christianized by the Aramaic speaking Church, so some of the stories I think they already knew, they already knew the stories, the preacher is telling them again, and in order to gain their attention, to tell them hey, like you I have the same background as you. 9) And I don't think that we should consider the Arab audience as being completely ignorant of what is being taught to them, and completely ignorant of Aramaic, Because as also scholars like Robert Kerr or Luxemburg or Luling pointed out the Quranic text is full of Aramaism or full of Aramaic words. 10) I think the preacher, who used them knew that his audience would understand those words or expressions. We should not think the 7th century worlds as divided between Aramaic or Arabic speaking, they were kind of mixed." 35:33 Regarding Jay's push back that there is a competition going on, that this is for the Arab people, this is their language. - Odon responds they are complimentary. (We agree with Odon, it could be Jay doesn't understand the holistic level research for this specific point.) Thank you for Jay in hosting both Odon and Thomas, this is the best duo to grace your channel.

[@chia-yinshih6155]

Lloyd de Joghn recently covered some researching findings of the Ethiopian influence that may also be complementary.

[@gebedzandvoort]

Can you give us the title of his book, paper or video?

[@chia-yinshih6155]

@@gebedzandvoort Lloyd De Joghn has his own KZbin channel ..but this particular finding is presented at "Reason answered Apologetics “ channel. kzbin.info/www/bejne/joWqlIiJmrKbirM

[@gebedzandvoort]

@@chia-yinshih6155 Thanks!

[@chia-yinshih6155]

@@gebedzandvoort you are very welcome. Lloyd tackles Islam from a fairly different angle..worth check him out…especially the sharia

[@jeneb52]

Cool information Jay & Odon, I knew that most of the book was taken from other sources. Look forward to the next video in this series too!

[@horseradishpower9947]

I reckon the Koran is a compilation of different compilations. Remember, some of the Earl Korans had a different number of Suras in them. Also, remember that there once was the Sura of the Camel in the Koran, which was laughed at by the Byzantines, and disappeared from the book. In addition, you have the shi'ite and sunni divide, and they argue over lines of succession, and the shi'ite group seems to have a hidden Trinitarian aspect to their beliefs. But not with Jesus, but a different trinity. And it might be that all of the diacritics and vowel marks were dropped from the texts, to make it easier to read the Arabic and Aramaic portions in one seamless whole. Like how inflections were dropped between the Saxons and the Norse settlers in England, because they could then understand each other much more easily.

[@michaels4255]

"Also, remember that there once was the Sura of the Camel in the Koran, which was laughed at by the Byzantines, and disappeared from the book." -- which highlights another point, that the Quran apparently was compiled and edited by poorly educated amateurs.

[@horseradishpower9947]

@@michaels4255 Yes, I remember... There feels like there is a lot missing to the picture. Clearly Merv is a factor, and the Black Rock of the Kabba. That was taken from Petra to Mecca. It has to be the reason why they made Mecca so important in the first place. That said, I think we are closer to understanding how this crazed compilation of a religion came to be. And I agree... there seems to be a massive atrophy of academia along the way.

[@aevumcorvi2108]

Welcome back Odon!

[@mirekbajgier7809]

Good to have you back. Great stuff Odon. How is English version of your book doing?

[@OdonLafontaine]

working on it right now. Almost done.

[@bluetbird420]

@@OdonLafontaine can't wait for this 👏

[@bhushanpawar817]

Thank you, both of you😎😘🧡

[@vicmeyer7190]

Push the like button and support our warriors in Christ.✝️

[@charlesiragui2473]

Odon makes an interesting point about Arabic and Aramaic speakers in the 7th century. If I understood his point, the core of the quranic text appeared in a context in which Aramaic and Arab speakers were intermingled across the desert edges of the Fertile Crescent. So, the quranic text in Arabic could include and naturally did include Aramaic terms that Arabs of that time would have generally understood. And they would have understood because they were "christianized" and I take that to mean that they had become faithful of various Aramaic-language churches. In these churches all liturgical activities and Scripture would have been in Aramaic. Because these two languages are related, the Arab faithful could have largely followed along. Compare this to the experience of Latin used in medieval Germanic-language countries, where comprehension for the illiterate would have been minimal and the language basically alien. The experience of the Arabs in 6th-7th century Aramaic churches would have been more like that of illiterate French people encountering Latin in church: not such a great stretch, but not totally easy either. The quranic core would have been a way for Arabic speakers to more easily get the details of the message, as they would have gotten the big picture (like French people could map out the familiar parts of the Mass: Pater Noster, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei, etc). These vernacular texts would have been helpful supplementary readings for these non-Aramaic-speaking faithful, who nevertheless could understand smatterings of Aramaic that they were used to from church settings. And because those whose wrote down this Arabic text could also speak Aramaic and knew the Aramaic source text, they didn't bother to write all the markings that would have made the Arabic script perfectly clear to those who spoke only Arabic. But once the break with Aramaic church structures occurred in the latter half of the 7th century, and Abd al Malik proclaimed Arabization, the Arab faithful, no longer having access to the main scriptural documents (Bible, liturgical texts, etc), began to lose connection to the base texts and anchored onto what they had in a language they fully understood (Quran). Is this a fair description, Odon?

[@henrikg1388]

A point Odin is making, is the first impression I had when I first read the Quran. This is just a bunch of gibberish if you don't have the bible as a reference. I just don't understand why so many Muslims can just read this text and imagine that they understand any of it.

[@Bei-Abedan]

I am very happy that Odon knew about the Jewish traditions which are mentioned in the Islamic Quran alongside the Christian passages proving that it is based on a Judeo-Christian Corpus in contrast to what more certain ignorant researchers would like to think. Merci beaucoup Monsieur. But still, the authors were not Nazarene Adoptionists. I will explain why and reveal who the true authors were in my presentations coming soon on Pfander films.

[@Bei-Abedan]

@Nikko As you have just proven, Abbasid Islam is incurably Anti-semitic. But I have the Kryptonite and with God's help will soon drive a stake through the heart of that religion once and for all. Peace

[@Bei-Abedan]

@Nikko Please forgive my scepticism as I have to point out that "Jewish background" is what all ,but the very worst Nazis among, the enemies of Judaism tend to say to make it look like they have some sort of objectivity when attacking Jews. Even so, it makes no difference. A Hebrew who turns against Mishnaic Judaism is called an Amalekite. So you are not objective, you are still an Antisemite. Antisemitic is a word invented by observant Jews by the way, (not by gentiles) to describe the enemies of the congregation of HaShem which only coincidentally sounds like the name of the father of Chaldia, the Elamites, Lydians as well as Ashur and Aram which is why non-Jews thought that the word Semitic referred to a race rather than the cult (ethnos) of HaShem. So Anti-Judaism is the very basis of all Anti-Semitism and as part of the Congregation of HaShem I will never allow any enemy of the congregation try and shove down my throat an Amalekite interpretation of what is and isn't Semitic or Antisemitic. Rabbinism is not Jewish by the way, it was introduced to the Children of Israel by Jethro, it is the traditional system of government of all children of "Hud" which includes Arabs. The Israelite version of the Rabbinate sits in the seat of Moses and Jesus actually commanded us to obey them even if they are hypocrites. And if you are referring to Mishnaic Judaism when you say Rabbinical Judaism then it very much is the religion of the Patriarchs and that Jesus taught and that his disciples followed as I have demonstrated many times on my channel. You are still badly deluded by the "Adoptionist" Abbasid narrative.

[@michaels4255]

@Nikko Antisemitism is anachronistic in this context. Joe of RedJudaism gets really mad when I say this for some reason, but antiSemitism is a term coined in 19th century Germany to describe a broad opposition not only to adherents of Judaism but to Jews broadly construed to include secularized, cultural Jews with no particular allegiance to Judaism as a spiritual path. They used Semite as a non religious descriptor of persons of Jewish origin because Jews were the only people in northern Europe at that time who would have been considered Semites. Arabs would not have been relevant because they were not present in the German political context. Whether the term is appropriate in our more cosmopolitan era when different peoples of Semitic cultural and linguistic origin are involved in today's political disputes is a different question which I will not go into here.

[@OdonLafontaine]

It all depends on what one thinks the "Nazarenes" are. My hypothesis is based only on the quranic text, which describes a "Nazarene" (nasara) community. Yet we do not really know who they actually were. The quranic text tells us they were "people of the scripture" (Jews) and that, obviously, they were not Christians (did not believe that God's presence was within Jesus) but still, they believed that Jesus was Israel's messiah (so they opposed to the other Jews). From this, one could form the hypothesis that those "quranic Nazarenes" might have come from other Nazarene communities that were documented throughout the Antiquity. But this is not the real issue here. The issue is having proven the existence of a Jewish-Nazarene community that seems to have had a very strong influence on the Arab faction that took Jerusalem, and also a very strong influence on the quranic text. Nonetheless, I had countless arguments with people who would not agree with this hypothesis because they had their own definition of what the Nazarenes should be, and could not fathom that they were many different groups, many communities that took the Nazarene name for themselves before Islam. Again, the name "Nazarene" is not the issue - even though such a name tells a lot about the people who called themselves this way.

[@Bei-Abedan]

@@michaels4255 You are twisting the facts again. The term was invented by observant Jews to describe opposition to the congregation of HaShem (Anshei HaShem). You simply don't know what you are talking about. Stop hating Judaism!

[@smithjohnson4254]

One example of the synoptic scriptures in the Qur'an can be found in surah 19, surah 20 Surah 27 and sura 28. The story of Moses and Allah on Mount Sinai. Anthony Rogers really dealt with that topic 2 days ago.

[@samspade225]

It's very nice to learn about the French school. Unfortunately I was a lazy stundet during the French lessons. So, I turn to you Jay, could you and Pfander films in some way encourage a translation of for exemple "The historians' Quran"?

[@gebedzandvoort]

Watch the interview with Dr. Ahmad al-Jallad; "What the Epigraphical Evidence Reveals": He said: "The Arabic was the language of Christian Arabs prior to Islam."

[@gebedzandvoort]

This is the video on YT: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJvahZ-YZbd5kM0

[@OdonLafontaine]

Of course it was. There were Arabic speaking Christians since the 1st cent.

[@gebedzandvoort]

@@OdonLafontaine In the Levant or also in the Hijaz?

[@ivanbrizida]

The Quran itself says that if you have any doubt go to the Bible for clarification. Because the Bible is the context and the Quran is aditional information. It makes perfect sense.

[@OdonLafontaine]

The quranic text says this because the "Quran" that it describes is not the islamic Quran but an Arabic lectionnary, a collection of texts taken from the Bible itself. Hence the "in case of doubt, go to the Bible".

[@alonzoharris6730]

There is no bible mentioned in the Quran.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@alonzoharris6730 what do you mean?

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@OdonLafontaine There is no bible mentioned in the Quran. Ask the people of the Kitab. Kitab refers to the tablet in heaven from which revelation is sent down. If you are in doubt refers to the story of Moses mentioned in context verses back.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@alonzoharris6730 well, this is your opinion - based on the hypothesis developped by the Standard Islamic Narrative. One could very much develop another hypothesis: the umm al kitab (mother of scriptures) is not a "tablet in heaven", but the original Hebrew or Aramaic version of the sacred biblical texts that the teachers of the quranic preacher keep by themselves. The "Quran" mentioned in the quranic text is not the Islamic Quran but another book: an Arabic lectionary made from translations from Hebrew or Aramaic bibical scriptures into Arabic. This hypothesis fits the Quranic text without contradiction nor reference to a supernatural "tablet" floating somewhere in heaven (which in itself is quite a leap of faith...). Q43,4: [the quran in Arabic] is taken from _[fī]_ the mother scripture [umm al kitab] with us Q56,78-80: A noble quran taken from _[fī]_ a book [kitab] well-guarded; None touch it except the purified. A revelation from the lord of the worlds. Who is the "us" in Q43,4? Who are the "purified" in Q56,79? Either God and his angels, according to the Standard Islamic Narrative. More likely the teachers of the quranic preacher according to my hypothesis. They think of themselves as "purified". They have translated passages of the mother scripture into an Arabic lectionary because they believe their mother scripture is "a revelation from the lord of the worlds", and they want to teach it to some Arabs. Just compare the two hypothesis and see which one makes more sense

[@charlesiragui2473]

Odon is bringing up the point that the sources of the quranic material are never directly biblical but rather apocryphal. This might tie in with Thomas’s point that the Arabic script itself would have been originally created by Christians. He says “missionaries” but I don’t think he means those working at conversion of unbelieving populations. Rather Thomas is referring to church officials or preachers ministering to the already Christian Arab population. These church officials or preachers would have had no interest in translating the Aramaic main texts, which they wanted the faithful to experience in the sacred language. But Arabic vernacular was useful in secondary religious texts to enhance faith and attachment to the collective Aramaic church (see: vernaculars used for sermons and prayer books in medieval Europe, but forbidding the translation of the Latin Bible itself).

[@paulthomas281]

Excellent! Thank you. I really want to acquire that massive tomb of Qur'anic study in the French language, published in 2019.

[@islamictruthwillsetufree1627]

this may be a spoiler as the next lectionary could be Ginza Rabba. something that has always been in the back of my mind.

[@ksimongeorge5020]

Please translate this into other European languages and Indian languages like Malayalam Hindi Tamil Kannada Telengu Marathi Punjabi Urdu Bengali etc etc so that you can enlighten more than one and a half billion people.

[@michaels4255]

I second this, but I would like to see a sort of broad summary of the major points made by various researchers in a single concise volume.

[@urbandsouza7279]

@@michaels4255 in a book format and the source reference.

[@urbandsouza7279]

It will come ✋

[@iangerahty3422]

I’ll use a colander. The holes are so big‼️😉😂😂😂 I’m enjoying how all the different views are complementing each other and showing us different views of the Elephant 🐘.

[@ivanbrizida]

Maybe Zayd ibn Thabit - I mean Abd Al Malik :)) - did not burned Qurans, but made a selection of the lectionaries available to assemble the Quran itself.

[@michaels4255]

Most of the Quranic material does not come from lectionaries, although there may have been a lectionary at some point that sparked the idea of compiling their own canon and continuing to use the term lectionary in a different context. Properly speaking, a lectionary is just a collection of canonical scripture readings for each day of the year, and as such is tied to a liturgical calendar (a solar calendar in the case of Christians, although Muslims adopted a purely lunar calendar; the Jewish calendar is also lunar but corrected by the solar calendar from time to time to remain in synch with the seasons).

[@thewordistheonlytruth8784]

odon is great

[@bentajay2026]

Thankyou Ordon and Jay You can't hang clothes without peg s on a windy day they will be blown away That is what the writers of the Quran did toclaim that this book is Internal Pure and given by GOD and yet many stories can be traced from previous audiences This is total blasphemy to GOD

[@gilbertjones9157]

It is interesting that had the Ummah stayed in their home nations this examination may have not come about. Because there would not have been the current interaction causing those who have both intellectual curiosity or a religious interest to understand what is being presented especially with Muslim constant polemical confrontation with Christianity from arguments that lack more than a passing knowledge of Christian History and Theology. Now by putting forward information that examines Islamic History and Theology outside the Narrative the Muslims proffer we are see the Holes in their narrative and the holes in the Quran that none have an answer for. Muslims are being shown to only declare it is Lies, Lies and nothing more, a huge Fail. Their boat does not float. Their plane does not fly. Their thinking avoids crossing red lines that they themselves have erected while critics look back over those red lines and state the building is collapsing.

[@universalflamethrower6342]

Yes, I can always compare what Jays channel reveals with my daily interactions with abdools. A lot of their behaviour makes sense now. I also learned why the West's academia surpresses any meaningful critique on isl4m.

[@gilbertjones9157]

@@universalflamethrower6342 Their suppression in not placed on the information but on their public exposure of the information. Even the Two Turkish or Turkieysh Scholars had to place their findings of dating into the 7th century for staring dates. They point to parts of the script in the manuscripts as having archaic Hijaz portions but stopped from stating that any of them were Uthmanic placing them just prior to the building of the Doom of the Rock and continuing to claim that the Quran is real. But they have not compare the variations of the Quran with the manuscripts nor the Qurans themselves to one another. Things are falling apart for Islam and 10 of thousands leave it's influence daily. Many find themselves choosing Jesus. There is a seed change and a harvest is growing.

[@urbandsouza7279]

@@gilbertjones9157 yes.then I think corona will be an excuse to isolate if large scale mischief. A wounded animal try

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@gilbertjones9157 Even Bart Ehrman agrees that the quran is transmitted faithfully and is exactly the same. Your attempts are hilarious. For your information. The bible depends on manuscripts. It's your problem not our problem. You rely on manuscripts for your bible. Muslims never ever rely on manuscripts and don't claim to rely on manuscripts. Even if we did the manuscripts are exactly the same. You won't get an imaginary made up Syriac Quran.😂 You guys are hilarious. Demanding manuscripts but have zero manuscripts for an imaginary syriac Quran.😂

[@gilbertjones9157]

@@alonzoharris6730Ah, your back!! Nice to see you. Like your persistence. We might just make you change if not go away. Have to make breakfast first. Let's see Ehrman... Ehrman... Oh ya the guy that thinks Jesus was a Twin. Hum..... We will have to think about him as I fry up my eggs.

[@thinkingperson2122]

How different are the german people from the french people! But they still agree in so many things! Vivre la France! (I do not know how to say that for Germany in German).

[@michaels4255]

I used Google translate, which renders Vive la France as Lang Lebe Deutschland or Long Live Germany.

[@JerryBurridgeJr]

The positions of Odon are richly endorsed in the study of Christoph Luxenberg

[@villainousssb533]

Jay. Lloyd has been looking at the different language words in the Koran and noticed a significant number of Ethiopic words. He is currently looking at the state and religious history of Ethiopia and Yemen and it’s influence on the koran. Maybe Mecca is an average position to build a shrine in such a large caliphate.

[@OdonLafontaine]

There are very interesting articles in _Le Coran des Historiens_ about this

[@villainousssb533]

@@OdonLafontaine thanks Odon I’ll pass that on to him.

[@pictureel5863]

Excellent. Is there a simple written summary of the content from all these contributors?

[@pfanderfilms]

There is a summary of every video in the Description box above

[@mauricebordage7266]

Merci

[@dalelangley9666]

I am wondering if there were two Mohameds , one exiled from Edessa , who united the Arabs in the Mesopotamia area , and a second who united the Arabs in Palestine . The one in Palestine was a Nazarite -Koreshi Jew , a Monophysite Christian , raised in Petra . He could have been the leader of the Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth in Jerusalem from 614 til 619 . Expelled from Jerusalem/Mecca , he led his followers to Petra/Medina . He sent some of his followers to Axum , and they returned to Akaba with reenforcements and joined Mohamed there , building the oldest Mosque in Akaba . They fought their first battle near Gaza in the mid 630’s , and fought their was north , capturing Jerusalem in 637 . This Mohamed started rebuilding the Jewish Temple in 614 , and finished it after 637 . This is how I feel all of the pieces of the puzzle fit together . And Abd al-Malik united these two Arab kingdoms and made himself the new Mohamed , half a century later .

[@michaels4255]

The earliest date I have seen for the construction of the temple mount "mosque"(?) is the late 7th century. " leader of the Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth in Jerusalem from 614 til 619" - That was Nehemiah ben Hushiel, who was executed during the Roman reconquest under Heraclius. I do think this Nehemiah figure might have been a prototype for Muhammad, or he might have been transmutated into Muhammad by early Islamic mythmakers.

[@dalelangley9666]

@@michaels4255 Wikipedia says that they began rebuilding the Jewish Temple between 614 - 619 , but that the Christians demolished it when they took over Jerusalem , and turned it into a garbage dump . It was still a garbage dump when the Arabs conquered Jerusalem in 637 .

[@dalelangley9666]

@@michaels4255 I also think I remember one of the SIN Sifters said that the first thing built on the Temple Mount after the Arab conquest of 637 was a Jewish Temple . Remember that there were no Moslems at that time , and they were trying to bring about the Second Coming . It is believed by many that a Jewish Temple is a prerequisite to the Second Coming .

[@dalelangley9666]

@@michaels4255 I am not sure of the fate of Nehemiah , but I know that all the Jews fled Jerusalem in 619 , while the Sassanids still controlled the area . The Romans didn’t return to the area until after 622 . Also , some Jewish scholars believe that Nehemiah was a fictional character . And I think that one of the SIN Sifters suggested that the Jews who fled Jerusalem in 619 may have been the same Jews who were exiled from Edessa some time later . I wonder what led you to believe that Nehemiah was killed by the Romans ?

[@michaels4255]

@@dalelangley9666 I need to relisten to that video. Certainly that would fit with the notion that Jewish revolutionaries were behind the movement that led to the conquest of Palestina including Jerusalem, the grand prize from a Jewish perspective. However, many Arabs were still Nestorians or Monophysites. Umayyads are remembered for favoring Arabs over a pan ethnic Muslim community, but it may be that the Umayyads presided over a religiously diverse Arab community. The Abbasids, who began their revolt on the northeastern frontier of Persia which was not an Arab stronghold, chose the opposite strategy: to create an ethnically diverse empire unified by a common faith, perhaps in imitation of the Roman Empire.

[@thewordistheonlytruth8784]

This information is great

[@ksimongeorge5020]

Mohammad's first wife was a Jew or Christian,Madina(Yathrib) was a Jewish settlement, there were Jews and Christians in Arabia,Varaka Noufel ,cousin of Mohammad's first wife was a Christian who happened to be the first person to acknowledge Mohammad as prophet.

[@fantasia55]

Muhammed is a fictional character invented by the Abbasids.

[@michaels4255]

None of these stories is reliable. They all appear long after the period of time in question.

[@StephenCowley001]

One thing that I would find helpful with these videos would be to be clued in a little on the three languages being discussed - i.e. Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. Are Aramaic and Arabic as similar as English and German (i.e 40%), or like Spanish and Italian (very similar), with Latin being like Hebrew in the background. Or are they like Bulgarian, Polish and Russian (close to mutually intelligible, or so I'm told)? The are called "Semitic languages", so they must form a family, but given the geographical and historical spread, it's hard to get a rough idea of what's going on. I'm multilingual, but realistically, I'm not going to start learning them at my age, so it would be good to to at least have an educated opinion to go with as a working hypothesis. The Spanish/English comparison might be useful for Americans.

[@michaels4255]

English draws half or a little more of its vocabulary from French, so Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew, however you want to measure them, are definitely going to be closer than English and German. However, they seem to have already been distinct linguistic communities before dialects of Latin or Slavonic diverged from their respective mother tongues.

[@OdonLafontaine]

Thomas Alexander explains this very clearly on his YT channel

[@embmaxim.3340]

agreed = copy, paste, cut, edit, fabrications... For decades and decades

[@spiritofwisdom979]

Interesting 👍

[@michaelbarry8513]

I have often wondered if the Gospel to the Hebrews which is now lost might have contained some of the material that shows up later in the Quran

[@willielee5253]

@mon. 35:05, as a side note, if you have a Hebrew/Greek Interliner bible app, then you will find renderings of the ( Most High ) in the book of Daniel 7:25, transliterated under the Strong's Concordance number #5943 (illaah) Aramaic and #5946 (Hebrew) odd for sure, but throughout the whole Old Testement, Most High is given in Hebrew only not Aramaic accept in Daniel 7:25. Just a note. God bless you on your journey!!!

[@bhushanpawar817]

Death of Sin, by modern dawa.

[@stephanievegter5438]

♥️

[@ArthurCor-ts2bg]

Are you all listening!!! the Dawah Teams of speakers corner

[@ddmaheshwari7059]

Which document of which year has been used for this analysis. Where is that available today.

[@surfboy344]

I'm amazed that these guys aren't in hiding with a security team.

[@sarahhanna1145]

Thanks Don and Jay! Nazareth Jewish preachers had a plan to prepare those Arabs to fight Rome and take Orshalem back to build the temple from their point of view and to convince people that Mesaiah will return to this world, the main reason was actually to fight Rome not for religion purpes from my opinion, Nazareth Jewish were against Jewish Rabi and against Christians and they were few from the time they left holly land around 50 AD. Then those Arabs after they won the war confronted their Nazareth Jewish teachers because they lied to them and Jesus Mesaiah is not coming to rule our world, then started to kill their Nazareth teachers and almost killed them all. If it is possible to do a presentation about where and who are now the Nazareth Jewish and I believe they are part of Syria ethinics now under different name and I will be as researcher listening to you and leave comments. God bless you.

[@atifsabat4211]

This could indeed explain why Arab armies invaded Jerusalem and it was their first conquest and why they hated the Jewish Nazarenes afterwards, and else why the Arabs went into war on the first place, various Christian sects and cults lived peacefully together despite having major theological disputes, we only hear about bishops arguing their case in the ecumenical synods and occasionally hear about some physical fights erupting between them but nothing in the Middle East history before Islam to say that various sects went into war because of their differences. Thank you.

[@michaels4255]

@@atifsabat4211 I have a similar idea. After the failed Jewish revolt in the early 7th century, Heraclius expelled ever Jew who would not convert. My hypothesis is that some of them went next door to Nabataea, which includes the former Idumaea (Edom) where the population had been forcibly converted to (Sadducean) Judaism by the Hasmoneans centuries earlier, although it was religiously diverse in AD 600, and tried to recruit a pan - monotheistic force united by their antipathy to Roman (Chalcedonian) Christianity to retake Jerusalem. This would explain certain striking connections between Muhammad (whether he was real or not) and the deceased Jewish mystic - cum - revolutionary leader Nehemiah ben Hushiel. I also argue that the pre Abbasid Arab conquerors were not religiously unified. The Abbasids created the Quran as part of an effort to impose religious unity on their followers, IMO.

[@dannyooi4951]

Thank you gentlemen. Odon, do you have a hypothesis on who and for what purposes the quran was put together/or rather clobbered together from various Jewish,Christian and also apocryphal texts/sources transliterated into Arabic. What were the likely promoters or writers seeking to achieve? It also does not seem to be one whole book given to only one man

[@khaledalothman4314]

Most likely initially a prophet wanna-be from the Arabs; basically a man who saw visions but was also exposed to Christian/Jewish literature. He was probably a Christian anti trinitarian. He probably saw himself as some kind of messiah. Then half a century later, arab conquerers used these old orally transmitted "preachings" against trinitarian ideology, and cooked up a "book" that would represent or legitimize a new religious movement.

[@OdonLafontaine]

This is exactly what will be unpacked in the next videos

[@dannyooi4951]

Thank you for your scholarship and painstaking research. Warrior for Christ

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[@mikejohnson5059]

Can you guys put together a box matrix of each chapter of the Quran. Indicate oldest parchment of each. The source of each chapters storytelling. The original language and area of the world it originated from. I saw a video from a guy who does timecharts that showed about how three chapters of the Quran and their source stories like the sleepers, etc came to be but it did not include them all and other pertinent info regarding where the pre islamic stories settings came from. And also some of the Quran chapters that could have been written decades later... in far away lands.. Thanks

[@herrzaki]

Dhu al Qarnayn as per al Quran is a reference to Moses, not Alexander the great. Michelangelo did Moses head sculpture with two Horns. Dhu al Qarnayn literally means "He of the Two Horns" In ancient time as early as from Babylonian era, numerous myths were told about 7 sleepers/sleepers of Ephesus with some degree of localised variation, but they are all simply a story about Pleiades, the seven stars cluster in constellation Taurus.

[@OdonLafontaine]

well you are right about Moses but the identification of Dhu al Qarnayn as being Alexander does not rely on the meaning of Dhu al Qarnayn only but on the stories the Quran tells about him, which are adapted from 'The legend of Alexander' that was written for emperor Heraclius

[@AndiWidjaja]

Do you have the link to the pleiades story?

[@herrzaki]

@@AndiWidjaja the gist of plaeides in ancient history can be found here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades_in_folklore_and_literature

[@AndiWidjaja]

@@herrzaki thanks

[@moorek1967]

Uh, no. Those are not horns, those represent beams of light. Even Michaelangelo said that. Geesh, learn some history.

[@cosmopolitanpark]

Jay, I believe it is silly to believe in someone who says he is a messenger of God or an apostle. It is silly for me to believe in the revelation. By the way, do you believe in the Trinity, or, in Jesus is "son of God" ?

[@GizmoFromPizmo]

I guess I'm missing something. If the Quran contains stories about Abraham, flying horses, Ishmael, Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, Mary (the sister of Aaron and mother of Jesus), etc. This was all written at the same time as when God was created? It's co-eternal with God so it preceded a few of these characters, I would imagine. Or is that part of the magic or the Quran?

[@sammcrae8892]

Finally we are able to see the results of serious scholarship and research. Jay and Odon might be wrong (in a small way) on a few particulars, however, they really do seem to have opened up the puzzling and convoluted history of those times, and the origin of the Quran and Islam. The standard Islamic narrative, while it is believed and defended by most Muslims is seriously lacking in essential provenance and historical evidence. From the research of Islam by Jay Smith, and Odom, and others it is finally beginning to understand how Islam came into existence, and evolved into what it is today. A Judeo-christian splinter sect that was the basis for concepts and written material that was manipulated by political forces to bolster their own power and after morphing into a totalitarian pseudo death cult can try to take total control of humanity and be the main basis for the apostate world religion of the antichrist and false prophet. Now it all makes sense.🙏✝️👑✝️🙏

[@hamsterbox4732]

What is the common answer how Muslim scholars respond to these findings that parts of their Qur'an are legends of previous (fairly unknown to them) writings and Allah just repeated them and sometimes even wrongly? Did Allah had to correct the seven sleepers (dog/angel)?

[@slippingsnake]

I don't know about islamic scholars but Muslims explain that there were earlier Revalations that got lost, but parts of them were told and changed and became this sources... I still don't unerstand what Dhu al-Qarnayn has to do in the Quran, what is the theological value or Message for mankind of this story?

[@OdonLafontaine]

They cannot respond within the narrow boundaries of Islam. So they deny everything.

[@hamsterbox4732]

@@OdonLafontaine Anything known about the 'deeper dive' of Yasir Qadis courses and the holes in the Quran. Islamic academics must have been stumbeled over these facts of Lulling, Luxemburg and others now as well. I am sure they started a defence but of course they only can hope these western research theories/facts will not reach common Muslim people. Carry on the good work!

[@slippingsnake]

@@OdonLafontaine "They cannot respond within the narrow boundaries of Islam. So they deny everything." with all respect but I think this is absolutly not the case, though we get into politics which is not the intension of your work. Different groups of scholar work on answers to this topics and teach them in their schools, these students work either as simple multiplier or become teacher, Imams, Scholars themself. One of this group that has worked on scientific problems in the Quran is Ahmmaddya, so not accepted by other Muslims their arguments often spread over the internet (if there is some comparing of numbers involved it is likely from Ahmadya). The best known of this groups might be the Saudi schools; they teach students from everywhere in islamic Apology and Polemics and these students spread the Message when they return to their homecountry. Pierre Vogel in Germany is a popular example but I bet one can find this Saudi schooled Muslims almost everywhere. In regard to your work the Polemic is pretty simple: just deny any influence in the Quran and ridicule any example with modern arabic understanding of the text. As I have mentioned above: earlier sources might be inspired by earlier Revelations (wich have since been lost) and can be seen as a confirmation... I don't want to demonize Muslims but they are realy good in making up excuses.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@slippingsnake The issue is not polemics and apologetics but history. Consider this: there are almost no muslims involved in the critical research about Islam's origins (actually, none I think). Because they can't. Otherwise, they'll quit Islam. Can you still be a Muslim and acknowledge that Mecca did not exist, that the "proto-muslims" had Jerusalem as their goal (and not Mecca), that there is absolutely no evidence for Islam in the 7th cent., that the Quranic text comes from a long editing process? The only Muslims I have seen trying to cope with historical criticism tried to compose their own personal vision of Islam (so, not orthodoxy) with some of the new discoveries (and only some). But they could not go beyond the boundaries of their core belief: the existence of Mecca, the prophecy of Muhammad, the divine origin of the Quran. And even those "enlightened" Muslims cannot do anything but deny what could jeopardize their core belief.

[@peaceinjesus5221]

For all these sources to have been collected, collated, edited and adapted.....what kind of person or persons, would engage in such a process and behaviour?? It seems to me to be very strange to imagine a 7th century person to be collecting and doing all this....or did it come from a group of people? ....so is the question, really - who was the group of people who had this collection of texts and traditions, who then passed this on into Arabic text for Arabic people?

[@slippingsnake]

There is another Aspect that Jay has multiplies videos about but does not mention in this video, I call it "rise of Arab Nationalism". This might go back to 622 when the Byzantines beat the Persians, the arabs gained indepenence and in the following decades took over Persia and challenged Byzanz. Around 690 a.d. Ab'dul Malik builds the Dome of the Rock (with quranic= arabic text Inscriptions) and coins change to arabic scriptures. Afaik it is also agreed that Ab'dul Malik changed the language of the Administration to arabic (i.e. for documents and communication). Though I think the Quran was not finished at the time and maybe the text were not even considered the word of God but still in evolution (?). But this is speculative and part of our journey :)

[@michaels4255]

Not at all. The Old and New Testaments are each collections of books (with the Christian OT including more material than the version finally settled on by the rabbis), and the early Muslims would simply be imitating the practice of those two faiths.

[@alair284]

All Western scholars confirm that the first written text of Alexander the Great was composed between 629 and 630 in Syria. The legend of Dhul Qarnayn the bi-horned (Alexander the Great) is found in the Kuran at the end of surah 18. The similarities between the two texts are very disturbing. It’s like the original text has been copied in the Kuran. But the sura 18 was revealed at the end of the second Meccan period according to the standard islamic narrative. How is this possible if the original text was composed between 629 and 630 and Muhammad left Mecca in 622? Should we reject the chronology of the Meccan and Medinan surahs? Is it possible that the Kuran continued to be composed after the supposed death of Mahomet in 632?

[@ddmaheshwari7059]

If we say Qoran borrowed from bible and Torah, and Bible borrowed from Torah, is Torah original writing, or what has it borrowed from.

[@khany6345]

Sometimes I wonder why the scholars and intellectuals spend so much time in proving that Quran is not a divine Book , just like in this video. Let’s keep the things simple. If Torah and Bible are not divine then how come Quran can be divine. Because Quran’s 99% stories comes from these sources such as Torah and Bible. Rest 1% comes from other literature such as story of Alexander the Great, and unwritten Jews stories told by priests heart to heart , to support their written stories. To cut the story short;If the source is unreliable, then any book or speech based on these unreliable sources becomes redundant and false.

[@Repent4JesusChrist]

👏

[@AustinOKeeffe]

Pfander Films - Raiders of The Lost Quran. Indiana Jones and the Temple (on the Mount) of Doom, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade of Truth.

[@shihabshihabi]

After 2 centuries of scholary works, Christian and secular scholers came up the same result that the Quran stated 14 centuries ago that your bible has been corrupted. Quran also offered part of your scriptures original while your scholers are still looking for it.

[@shihabshihabi]

@Whiskey Shaman O yah Keep following Paul, Mercian, Tertailian, Robert Spencer and Jay Smith.

[@justaminute3111]

@@shihabshihabi Paul? Do you mean Paul neé Saul of Tarsus? The man that your scholars confused with Saul in the Old Testament? The man that your scholars claim persecuted Early Christians so that he could pretend to convert and then “corrupt” a book that did not exist yet? Yeah, try reading some of his letters and realise how much of God’s love of humanity it expresses. Yes, I’d prefer what he has to say rather than the messy, filthy patchwork texts that are the Koran and the Hadith.

[@shihabshihabi]

@@justaminute3111 Only ignorant people like you can confuse Saul of Tarsus of the new restement with Saul, the king of the old testement. And let us suppose that your claim is true, whoever gets confused on that is ignorant on this issue even though he maybe knowledgable on other issues. So you chose: either you lied about my scholers or you brought something which does not support your argument. Paul/Saul is an enemy of God who claimed that Jesus was a god/devine and that he, Paul is an apostle of that god and he, Paul also abolished the laws of God. Then, he is either a lier intending to hijack the message of Jesus or he is deceived by Satan. You chose. Jesus, like other important prophets of God, was giving reveallation/book: the Injeel and Paul corrupted this book by writing his letters against it and by leading his Greek followers to write the so called gospels and the acts which support Paul's polytheistic and balsphemic ideas and suppress the true gospel and the true followers of Jesus. Paul invented Christianity and set the stage for his Greek followers to go further on elevating Jesus further over time. Pauline Christianity is a developed religion not a revealled one. His letters are full of polytheism and blasphemy and hetred even toward his supposed fellow Christians. He considered them his enemies. His god's love for humanity was reveiled in his church's persecuting other Christians, aquisitions against Muslims, Jews and Unitarians, crusades, Hiroshema and Nagazaki and persecuting Palestinians. It does not surprise me if you prefer Paul's words over God's revealled words to Jesus and Mohammad as you are doing exactly like your preveous brothers in blasphemy: (When Allah, the One and Only, is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are filled with disgust and horror; but when (gods) other than He are mentioned, behold, they are filled with joy!)

[@khaledalothman4314]

"the quran mentioned inside the quran is not the islamic quran but an arabic lectionary"

[@michaels4255]

In other words, a collection of Bible readings for each day of the year.

[@albusai]

In Quran I clearly see plagiarism from fake sources as infancy gospel of Thomas, apocalypse of Abraham, targum Sheba, cave of treasures, book of jasher, Talmud Sanhedrin Mishnah 4:5 , so it is a book of fables ,

[@tarnos4153]

Quran 10:94 ------------------ من قبلك ۚ لقد جاءك الحق من ربك فلا تكونن من الممترين So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

[@samuelortiz6322]

jay there were christians and jews in yemen ans there werer many bishops in yemen qatar umman bahrain and so on.iN YEMEN WERE SYRIAC ORTODOCS CHRISTIAN BISHOPS AND IN QATAR AND SO ON WERE BISHOPS OF ZHE CHURCH OF EAST

[@ConservativeArabNet]

It have names of animals which are unknown in Arabia- impossible to know what elephant looks like

[@deborawilliams6390]

Great analysis of what the text of the Quran really is: The Quran is clearly not a divine or revealed word of God Almighty. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses.

[@albm706]

Thank you Odon. You must show the verses that you seem to refer to. Or sort of refer to. If you do not quote the verses (and you must quote the verse in Arabic as well - a translation can be presented but since the Quran is with us you must quote the Arabic) then your discourse becomes 'sort of' or 'it seems like'. This is not an academic method at all if you cannot quote the verses from the Quran. Same with the Aramaic words. What exactly are these so called Aramaic words in the Quran? I have been listening to you for months now and you have not yet presented even one of these Aramaic words in the Quran. Since these Aramaic words are critical for your discourse you must show examples of these Aramaic words in the Quran. And you must show if these examples of Aramaic words are not known or understood in the Arabic language BEFORE the Quran. Thank you again.

[@alonzoharris6730]

Marijn van Putten destroyed this myth of Syriac in the Quran.

[@OdonLafontaine]

I have kept on referring to the scholars'studies about aramaisms in the Quran. Look for Robert Kerr's article about it on Academia (I cannot post links) As for the quranic references, you will have plenty in the next videos

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@OdonLafontaine Have you read Marijn van Putten article? He has given evidence why the language of the Quran has nothing to do with Syriac. He demonstrates that word by word.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@alonzoharris6730 Have you read Robert Kerr's article? He has given evidence of many aramaisms in the Quran. He demonstrates that word by word.

[@AndiWidjaja]

Didn't Thomas show several examples?