Thomas: (Pt.7) Believes there wasn't 1, but 2 Muhammads!

Thomas now has his own KZbin channel here: @TAlexander/videos
Let's talk about Muhammad 1 and Muhammad 2. In the Qur'an Muhammad 1 (who is Jesus) can be found 3 times (Surahs 3:144, 47:2, and 48:29), while Muhammad 2 (who became the prophet Muhammad) is found only once (Surah 33:40), and may be a later interpolation, as one can see that in the oldest manuscript, this verse was altered, possibly by the Abbasids. Thus, Muhammad the prophet was really not in the original Qur'an at all!
Let's now go through the sequence of when these 2 Muhammad's appear:
661 AD: The first reference we have to the name 'Muhammad' is on coins from this period, minted by Mu'awiya, as a title for Jesus. These references to Jesus continue up to 756 AD, when he now becomes a prophet, and stays as such, until today.
So, Muhammad as a prophet was a slow process, and not something which happened in just 22 years as the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) suggests.
The older Surahs in the Qur'an were derived from Syrian missionary homilies and lectionaries, written initially in Aramaic, by Aramaic speaking preachers. Thus, the primarily Arabic-speaking working class citizens didn't understand what had been written.
As these texts were being translated into Arabic in the 8th century, the translators by that time didn't know the Aramaic words for these preachers, and so projected Muhammad's name (in brackets) whenever references were made to Jesus, or to a prophet.
Nor were they aware that the Qur'an was derived from lectionaries, which were primarily references and explanations of what had been in the Bible. They assumed they were scripture, and so assumed what they were writing was scripture itself.
Later on more Surahs were added to the Qur'an comprised mainly of legal codes, which were not as elaborate, nor as poetic as the earlier material.
We see this later addition in Surah 9:30-31 where there is noted a distinction between Jews & Christians, and the believers.
The Abbasids, in order to find legitimacy point themselves back to Abraham, Why?
For authority they needed a scripture.
For a scripture they needed a guarantor, a prophet, or a seal of the prophet.
For a prophet they needed a history who was unique.
That is why they had to create a book and a man in order to give them an identity.
The Dome of the Rock, created by the Umayyads is where there was a mis-reading of who the Aramaic Jesus was. The Abbasids hated the Umayyads, and so made Jesus into Muhammad, the prophet.
809 AD: Al Ma'mun, the governor of Merv, fixes up the Dome of the Rock inscriptions and adds diacritical marks to them.
This is the golden age for the Persians (9th - 11th centuries). It is during this time that anti-Trinitarian Christianity becomes Islam, and Muhammad becomes a real person, and the Qur'an is finalized, proving that Islam evolved slowly into the religion we see today.
By the 11th century, the golden age ends, and Al Ghazzali introduces a more fundamentalist form of Islam.
Summary:
Thomas helped us delineate who the Umayyad Muhammad 1 of the 7th century was, in contradistinction to the Abbasid Muhammad 2 of the late 8th and 9th centuries.
He pointed out that it really began with Abd al-Malik in the late 7th century, who fomented an anti-Trinitarian Christianity as the state religion, introducing a strict Arabisation into his empire, with Muhammad 1 merely as a title for Jesus.
At that time Christians believed Arabs were Christian heretics. Yet, they watched as this anti-trinitarian Arab religion began to morph into a faith which chose its own a prophet (i.e. Muhammad 2), in the line of Abraham, via Ishmael, who was then given his own scripture, the Qur'an (derived from the earlier Aramaic 'Qaryana', which was made up of earlier Christian lectionaries, hymns and homilies), and this religion evolved and was added to in the 9th century (by the Abbasids), into the Islam we know today.
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
(60,440) Music: "Epic Trailer" by Rafael Krux, from filmmusic-io

[@peacock69mcp]

WOW! Thomus Alexander, you have done a marvelous job on Islamic historicity and Quran. That color coding Quranic chapters was brilliant. 👍

[@teejah7785]

@@JesusisaMuslim your link does not prove the quran is preserved. islamic scholars even said that the quran has holes in the narratives.

[@yuliuswijayanto843]

Bart Ehrman whahahahahahahaha

[@teejah7785]

@@JesusisaMuslim i wrote a long response but it is not showing here. i said in my response that bart ehrman's interview with hijab showed that bart did not agree with hijab about the quran having no errors as there other books that have/or no errors but does not mean it is a book from god! bart also said that he believes and based on historic material that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross. face the facts instead of trying to bring a video that shows more holes in the quran

[@teejah7785]

@@JesusisaMuslim you don 't believe that Bible but in the quran it says that you need to follow the people of the book...both jews and christians...you just became an apostate when you denied the Bible!

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@JesusisaMuslim You aren’t understanding what Thomas is talking about do you .. At the time of the alleged Muhammad there were “NO” Muslims. Mecca 🕋 didn’t even exist in pre-Islamic times .. Muhammad is a made up mythological character.. They literally made him up .. Muslims now have the ultimate fake religion..

[@fay1298]

Thank you so much Thomas and Dr Jay. Thomas, the Inarah material that you are summarising for us is so valuable. I can only imagine the amount of time and effort it is taking you to present to us this knowledge. On a different note but related to the topic, Dr Christoph Luxenberg is presenting a Syrio-Aramaic reading of the Quran on an Arabic KZbin channel. He mentioned that Al Mamoun was the one most likely to have introduced the word Islam as the official religion of Islam. He was talking about the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock. Looking forward to the Andalusian episodes. Well done thank you for all your hard work.

[@TAlexander]

Yes, if you remember, in a previous video I said that if I had to draw a line somewhere to demarcate the tipping point where this anti-Trinitarian form of Christianity became Islam, it would be around 825 AD during al-Mamun‘s reign. To a degree this is always going to be somewhat arbitrary as we’re looking at a centuries long process, but that seems to be the most fitting point. In Andalusia, it‘ll be a bit later, around 850 AD, but then all the more forceful.

[@fay1298]

@@TAlexander, thank you for your reply. I’m sure you would have said that and I may have missed some of the content as there’s so much to absorb. I need to go back and listen to your videos again. Of course I understand it won’t be possible to specify a date. Just a comment, what we know about the “Golden Age” period, there was serious work going into translating Greek, Persian and Aramaic books into Arabic. One can’t help wondering that the Quran would have been the Number 1 book being translated.

[@yalineclaire1969]

Hey can you share the link of that channel?

[@yalineclaire1969]

@@fay1298 .

[@wereyare9143]

Great, great, great. What a man Thomas is. Please make the references available in the description. Please find a way to make the slides accessible. They are goldmines

[@firstnamesecondname852]

So far, they are only available in German.

[@wereyare9143]

@@firstnamesecondname852 I read German. That will be very helpful

[@thinkingperson2122]

The SIN is completely in ruins. With the debris a new building is taking shape. Come and see this building Muslims! Come! The building shows that you were misled away from Jesus. Open your eyes and come back to Jesus, where you belong! All praise be to God.

[@sammason4763]

I come from Shiia background.. after this new storyline from Thomas.. I wonder how the Sunni-Shii split came to existence.. further for the sake of argument against the Shia case, i would like a small clarification about the man called Ali and where all this heritage come from. I hope this catches your attention as very little talked about the Shia in contrast to Sunna. I know that once Muhammed is down then the whole Islam-thing is meaningless. But for Shia without Ali is or was no Islam. Thank you J. and Thomas for this series.

[@Speakers154]

Every time I think you can't possibly top your best video, you go and prove me wrong. This was outstanding! I think this, coupled with Odon's Secret of Islam, provides all the essentials to comprehend how Islam began. You got the balance just right in explaining its evolution, without falling into an Abbasid conspiracy or a fluke of history: there were logical historical steps. As they took those steps forward, an exegetical fog came down on what came before, due to losing the biblical context and their understanding of Aramaic. The fog of exegesis was ignored and they groped their way forward using the flashlight of esogesis: re-imagining the context, creating siras and hadiths to fill in the gaps. Ultimately, it resulted in them stumbling on through an ever deepening fog that they never emerged from. Well done, Thomas!

[@RedWolf75]

Mel, you kind theorized this yourself. Maybe Umar and Iyas were both called "the praised one" by their Tayyaye followers.

[@TAlexander]

That balance you speak of is really the most difficult part to get right. It’s always easy to assume a big conspiracy, particularly with a messy history like that of Islam. But reality typically is more complicated. Yes, there are conspiracies, I believe for instance that the Abbasids fudged their genealogy which would fall under the conspiracy theory umbrella. But by and large I don’t think you can conspire a religion into existence. A good explanation must therefore assume a mostly organic development. Each step must follow from the last.

[@alonzoharris6730]

His whole video is based on a later Quran. That's completely debunked by scholarship. There is 97% of the Quran in manuscripts from the 7th century. That's enough to disprove his nonsense. He is also debunking himself by accepting without any hesitation Christian sources which have manuscripts that are 400 years later than the earliest Quranic manuscripts. He accepts these to be preserved without any scepticism. But when it comes to John of Damascus it's suddenly an edited work later. So much dishonesty and deception is going around. No consistent methodology but simply imposing ideology into history by cherry picking sources to suit your ideological needs.

[@paulellis5101]

It is uncontested that Arabic is a N Semitic language with much in common with Hebrew and Aramaic. It is also uncontested that the Qur'an is saturated with Judeo-Christian themes. But whilst there is a long and sophisticated tradition of literature on these themes in Hebrew and Aramaic, so far as we know there had been no book written on any subject at all in Arabic prior to the Qur'an. Consequently, it should not be in the least bit surprising that the Qur'an author would derive much of his inspiration, and forms of expression, from Hebrew and Aramaic sources. However, I remain unconvinced by the 'Christian lectionary thesis'. I have four major reasons for doubting it: 1. Expert and scientific evidence that the Qur'anic consonantal text was complete by the mid-7th century, 2. The total absence of Jesus or any NT figure or theme from the early surahs of the Qur'an, in which NT language and imagery appear but which address exclusively OT figures and stories. 3. The absence of the lectionary that the Qur'an is proposed to be a translation of. Even where early Qur'an passages are similar to Syriac sources, eg Q.78 and Q.97 which show signs of dependence on Ephrem's hymns, it seems clear to me that these cannot even be said to be 'free' translations of this material. 4. The assumption that the Qur'an that emerges of this process is effectively jumbled nonsense, the result of a more or less chaotic process of editors' piecemeal changing of texts that they did not understand. In my experience, analysis of the structure of the Qur'an and appreciation of its many biblical etc allusions almost always shows it to be far more structurally coherent and meaningful (albeit not consistent over time) than is apparent on a superficial or literalist reading. I wonder if you could address some of these objections here, or in future videos?

[@Speakers154]

@@RedWolf75 Yes, it is kind of similar. And the truth may be even more complicated.

[@alportes1761]

This is simply fascinating, thanks Thomas and Dr. Smith, plenty to ponder and absorb here.

[@theoldone3835]

I am loving this series. Thank you Thomas and Jay. Keep up the good work.

[@paladinhansen137]

Considering the word Muhammad is a title and not an actual name id lean on the fact that Muhammad and Islam is actually a concept/image formed by a group of individuals and not by one actual person. Many of whom extrapolated, garnered and retained Jewish and Christian pseudepigrapha which we find in the Quran. Many heretical "Christian" groups were wanting to form their own religion out of sheer spite of the Byzantines and Cappadocian theology which became everyone's standard view on Christianity which is probably why Persia was conquered so easily since many of these outcast "Christian" groups found a footing in the Arab world away from 100% Byzantine and Persian control. Using the Nabataeans well established trade routes. These trade routes that dotted all along the Persian Empire and much of the southeastern half of the Roman Empire was the major advantage for the Nabataeans in spreading their new faith of Islam and their new prophet of Muhammad. In fact the Nabataeans became so dominant at one point that the Roman Emperor 'Philip the Arab" was a Nabataean! They had so much influence that their trade empire stretched from Naples, Italy to Guangzhou, China. One of the major ports for the Nabataeans was in Ceylon(Sri Lanka)Which is why some of the earliest mosques are found in China because the Nabataeans already had a presence there in the Far East. btw many mosques with their qiblas or qibla walls all point to Petra. The religious capital of the Nabataeans

[@slippingsnake]

The Nabataen homeland became a roman province in 106 a.d., Arabia Petrea with Petra at the south east corner of the roman Empire. Petra had at least 2 churches and an Amphitheater but just vanished from the map after 600 a.d. (early 7th century). Roman presence and buildings don't match the description from Mecca in the Hadith so the story of Mo could not have taken place in Petra (which doesn't matter if the story is fiction anyway) However, Petra is a point of interest: the tumb of Aaron is ~ 1,5 km away, the area is called valley of Abraham and (as Dan Gibson points out) the pseudo Apsis of the Kaaba points towards Petra and if one projects the Mecca-Kaaba onto Petra the name of the Corners sudenly make sense. I guess that Islam developed mostly in the 8 and 9th century and what we see is a mix of legends and religious believes that can change over time, merge and be attached to another place.

[@williamgarayua5878]

☝🕊 🆚️ ☝⚔ So, Mohammad M1 is about JESUS, The Original Blessed ONE, while M2 is the Militarized one that contradicted JESUS' Teachings by plagiarizing holy Judeo Christian Scriptures...

[@samuelmorales2344]

@@williamgarayua5878 It seems Jesus was the Ummayad Muhammad and there was a warlord who was the "King of Saracens." These Saracens were Abrahamized. Saracens lived in the "backwater" and were enemies of whatever Roman Empire. You will find things in the Quran that seem to indicate legal codes in a tribe setting that are quite alien to anything Christian. I think the problem in saying a strain of Christianity morphed into Islam is that it involves a lot of throwing out Christian theology and beliefs. It seems to not acknowledge the crucifixion on purpose to drive home the point that Allah is too powerful and even a master planner above all. This would have been a sentiment of Jews and Jewish Christians.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@samuelmorales2344 Christianity is Greek paganism. It doesn't belong the the Semitic world.

[@rockumk]

​@@alonzoharris6730 It can be misread that way, but it is filled with Semitic expressions and thought. The New Testament writers were not Greek philosophers although they may have had some awareness of Greek thought. They were students of Yeshua and the Hebrew scriptures. The New Testament is filled with Hebraisms such as "going up" to Jerusalem. There are over 500 references to the Old Testament in Revelation. You'll never understand the New Testament outside of it's Jewish context.

[@urbandsouza7279]

Thanks thomas and jay. Jesus is using all of you for the glory of kingdom of God. Jesus truly said every knee should bow and every tongue confess jesus is lord.

[@yakovmatityahu]

For the Glory of the Father.

[@preapple]

Another fantastic video. Abd Al Malik and Al Mamun as the two major milestones in the creation of Muhammad- the person. Muhammad I being our lord Jesus. May all glory belong to him! Hallelujah Emmanuel

[@JacobAdewumi]

I hope you will put all these together in a book? Can't wait! 💙💙💙

[@TAlexander]

It’s coming 😉

[@islamdefenderyahya4621]

@@TAlexander Hell fire will be where you will Toast Roast & Burned for your Hard Deceitful work along with someone well known as Hater liar I Just hope you Reflect b4 too late / Yahya of spk Corner ===================================== Are you guys Serious ? keep twisting denying fabricating and lying to others including urselves ...? You guys have no shame or Dignity at All ? THE PHT stayed 40 yrs among his peoples and never claim to be pht till God sent his angel to him and for 23 yrs he confirm all the phts b4 him and bring Honour to them confirming their phthood and Glorify them as well as a Warner and glade tiding to whoever accept and submit with Obedience to our Lord who is ONE TRUE GOD ALLAH.... Regarding Quran its a direct speech by the Creator to the JEWS who Reject their Messiah and choose to turn their back to him while Quran remind them of all what God bestowed on them ...chptr 2 v 39 ..112..and so on in different part of the Quran ALLAH address the Jews and THE xtians ...TO Accept MHMD as the last pht and Quran as the Last Revelation to MANKIND. For 23 yrs pht Receive the Quran which is a Guide to whom Surrender To the Will of God and there is plenty of sign to all Mankind اقْرَأْ بِاسْمِ رَبِّكَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ (1) خَلَقَ الْإِنْسَانَ مِنْ عَلَقٍ (2) اقْرَأْ وَرَبُّكَ الْأَكْرَمُ (3) الَّذِي عَلَّمَ بِالْقَلَمِ (4) عَلَّمَ الْإِنْسَانَ مَا لَمْ يَعْلَمْ (5) READ : In the Name of thy Lord Who Createth, (1) Createth Man from a Clot. (2) Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, (3) Who Teacheth By the Pen, (4) Teacheth Man that Which He knew Not. (5) 1 /Qrn =sura / verse 51 47 = Expansion of the universe 2 /q 21 30 big bang 3 /q 21 104 future collapse of universe 4 / 57 25 iron origin 5 / 24 40 under wave - unseen current ..+ .darkness in the deep 6 / 75 3 4 reconstruction of finger print ... 7 / 51 41 hvn structures (protections) 8 / 70 4 curve ascending to hvn embryo stages // shooting stars// iron// protected roof ( 7 layers .atmosphere)// 7 layer earth (ground) //.mangling water// creation of the universe// mathematical +linguistic miracles of the QURAN.. FINGERPRINTS QURAN 75.4 بَلَىٰ قَٰدِرِينَ عَلَىٰٓ أَن نُّسَوِّيَ بَنَانَهُۥ Explanation:- Here Allah Telling To the People who Questioning Reality of Day of Resurrection. God (Allah) telling Here that 'WE able to Put together in Prefect order the "very tips of his fingers". That Means Same Fingertips Which we have in this life. Quran has 114 chapter, 57th chapter is the Middle chapter of Qur'an and it's Name is Iron. The Middle part of Earth is Created by iron* 57 is also the atomic number of Iron (Chemical Symbol FE) in the Chart of Elements. ur Normal thinking Skill is Not Enough to Judge the Qur'an of Allah. the pht Could Not Bring all those by himself BUT RECEIVE IT FROM THE ONE WHO KNOWS

[@TAlexander]

@@islamdefenderyahya4621 I‘m being honest in what I do. The book will contain all the references. Everything I say can be double-checked. No deceit in any of it. I welcome all challenges. But statements of faith are no challenge. You are closing your mind and heart which is a shame. Isn’t Muhammad said to have ordered "Seek knowledge and be it in China!“ Your outright rejection of current day scholarship doesn’t reflect well on your willingness to use your god-given intellect. Would god have gifted man with a mind like ours if he wanted us to bypass it? Maybe there are honest mistakes in what I’m saying, but you’ll never find out if you yourself don’t honestly engage with the arguments.

[@MU-we8hz]

@@islamdefenderyahya4621 yahya, why was your prophet gay? He liked men.....

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@TAlexander You are not representing scholarship. You are presenting ideological motivated people. You use deception and double standards when it comes to historicity. You reject all islamic sources including the Quran. But you accept Christian sources with no hesitation and scepticism you have no manuscripts from. Any person that claims that the Quran was not complete in the 7th century is a dishonest person. We have 97% of the Quran in manuscripts from the 7th century. You should start dealing with scholarship instead of making up lies of interpolations despite 7th century Quranic manuscripts presented to you. You can do what you want. Don't try to claim scholarship. Scholars completely reject your claims.

[@yehiaelyamani6943]

Bits of the puzzle start to fall into place! Magnificent work 👍

[@eswn1816]

The first Mohammed may have been a reference to Jesus! Amazing! 🙏

[@teejah7785]

@@JesusisaMuslim face the facts instead of emotions. facts from studies and researched material.

[@sheikhboyardee556]

@@JesusisaMuslim As we learn more it seems there was never a Mohammad. He is a composite of Jesus & later a fake Mohammad. Put together they made the legend of Mohammad created in the 9th or 10th Century.

[@samuelmorales2344]

@@JesusisaMuslim It makes sense because there were medieval crusaders accused of worshiping Baphomet aka Mahomet. There is 7th century and far up medieval age evidence linking Muhammad to being Jesus.

[@Dhoom1981]

@@samuelmorales2344 O Allah, send your prayers and peace always forever Upon your beloved (Muhammad) the best of all creation

[@marierrvik4063]

Thank you very much for bringing us a clearer and clearer picture of islams origin.

[@divyachacko3449]

Thomas Each time u get info it's fantastic

[@amirpouyaa]

Dear Jay Smith, i should thank you for introducing great minds and wisemen like Thomas alexander, this guy rocks!!! Also you introduced to me great minds like Mel and Odon, you guys are amazing, great jobs there should be a title like : “ The Great Un-Coverers of the Truth” and that title belongs to all of you guys!! Kudos to you guys !!

[@theoldone3835]

​@@JesusisaMuslim You madrassah boy, have been making a lot of ugly racist comments here. Your cult's ugly supremacist spirit is being exposed for all to see.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@theoldone3835 He is right. A white supremacist colonial approach to rewrite history for the Arabs. Using double standards in approach to rewrite history for political purposes.

[@theelder5505]

@@alonzoharris6730 Confused abdul, refute the evidence. Tell your phony scholars, that this is how research is done.

[@theelder5505]

@@JesusisaMuslim Another angry and embarrassed abdul, following his slave master allah, and allahs God mohamed.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@theelder5505 There is no evidence. The evidence says that 97% of the Quran is in manuscripts from the 7th century. That completely debunks his conspiracy theory. Also notice that he accepts non muslim sources with manuscripts from the 12th century ce without any scepticism. But he rejects the Quran from the 7th century while having 97% of the Quran in manuscripts from the 7th century. It's just amazing the hypocrisy and double standards.

[@musasuleimanchiroma2382]

I love the looks on Jay's face when Thomas introduced another way of dating quaranic verses!!.

[@yakovmatityahu]

Thank you Jay and Thomas once again for this landmark content...we now know the origins and formation of Islam all thanks to your efforts of finding the truth...God Bless the whole team.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@JesusisaMuslim quran has been perfectly preserved inside the stomach of the Goat 🐐 of Aisha 😁😁😁

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@JesusisaMuslim lol 😂 you really haven’t.. All you have is fabricated fantasy fiction Safraz .. And nothing more 😄

[@P.H.888]

@@JesusisaMuslim Galatians 1 v 8 enough said Not A True Biblical Prophet He couldn’t even read and write But boy could he lie cheat and kill. He started off trying to be friends with the Jews and Christian’s but when they all knew he was Not A Prophet he went to war with them ~ not peaceful So he had to change the New Covenant message To fit his own agenda once you lie you end up lying trying to cover up Abrogations ~ changes to your “perfect received text”!? 🧐 Mo is dead & buried JESUS CHRIST IS THE RESURRECTION

[@theoldone3835]

@@JesusisaMuslim Cry us a river.

[@MU-we8hz]

@@JesusisaMuslim the quran is perfectly preserved since 1924.... 😂😂

[@Priyavadan1]

What I find fascinating about the German School research into Islamic origins, history, and the relevant characters (Muhammed) in the Quran is the devastating critique of SIN which is no more sufficient to sustain the Islamic claims for over 1400 years. This German method coming out of the Enlightenment period was similarly devastating to historic Christianity. But the Biblical evangelical response and its clearly re-articulated confessions and creeds through robust theology publishing and teachings finally caught up with the scientific methods especially coming in the 20th century. Christianity has successfully pushed back at the liberal attack, though may have never recovered the already lost mainline denominations which gave up on Evangelicalism altogether. Evangelical Christianity is now healthy and fairly well equipped to provide a satisfactory apologia to the liberal attacks on the Bible and its teachings. I am waiting to see Islamic response (both the oriental and western Islamic scholars) to this devastating German critique of SIN. Will Islam bury its head in the sand or does it have a vibrant healthy scholarship to rise to the occasion and defend its faith or resort to don't you dare question the Quran or sing the familiar refrain "ALLAH and his Prophet KNOW BEST"?

[@universalflamethrower6342]

there is nothing to defend, so attack is the only option, which would mean double down on the lies

[@slippingsnake]

seroiusly I think you've got something wrong, maybe because Jay uses the term "german school". In Germany Oriental Research is mostly going mainstream and does not criticze the SIN directly. There is always a conflict that scholars could jepordize their contacts to Muslims and important sources, Like the Corpus Coranicum Project (lead by Angelika Neuwirth) wich we never talk about. Sven Kalisch, a german convert to shia, lost his job as professor when he questioned the existence of Mohammed- you can't educate students in things you don't believe, so there is a conflict with academic freedom. Some of this methods of critizing Islam/ islamic sources were applied by Goldhazir, so nothing new and nothing ever happened :) The guys from Inarah (institute for research on islamic history, Saarbrücken) publish for almost 20 years and get heavily critcized, which is good and helps to progresse the process, but see almost no support. It's more like they are viewed as Renegades and Revisionist who make up thing just to damage Islam :( [btw, they have a youtube channel but only 2 videos so far] There are other People working on this topic like Lafontaine (France) and a Muslim scholar from Tunesia (Abdelmajid Charfi ) published a critical edition of the Quran- like 10 years ago, but you almost never hear of that. So the Muslim scholars have to do nothing, just ignore it or say that this and that is not proven and continue with business as usual.

[@Priyavadan1]

​@@slippingsnake Your comments if true are well noted though I am at a loss to understand why TRUTH is not pursued with due diligence of all places in Academia? Christianity, its TRUTH CLAIMS, and BELIEFS have been the punching bag for liberals with impunity forever as I can recall. Mocking Christians for their faith has been the main fodder of many comedian late-night TV shows. But this religion (without my naming it) has special status and protection coming from liberals everywhere I can see. Why so? The WOKE liberals here in the US are ready to pass into law what is defined by the LEFT requiring protection for they define it as religious BIGOTRY and a PHOBIA (against this particular one) and therefore a hate crime according to them. JUSTICE in the WEST as originally founded by Roman Jurisprudence has fallen on hard times all in the name of POWER grab which NECESSARILY requires subjugating groups seen as a threat. If HISTORY has proven time and time again, it is that TRUTH ultimately TRIUMPHS no matter what the odds stacked up against it are.

[@sg12onlinename40]

"Evangelical Christianity is now healthy and fairly well equipped to provide a satisfactory apologia to the liberal attacks on the Bible and its teachings" really? Im glad this is not true, christianity doesnt convince many mentally healthy, thinking humans anymore, just try to be a decent human, we do have lots of issues these days in the world - lets try to improve them

[@universalflamethrower6342]

@@sg12onlinename40 ow that hurts Just like a Hitchens slap before JBP nailed New Atheism to the cross. christians Yet I turn the other cheek for another spectral slap if that makes you feel better.

[@tiasunepamri1944]

Muhammad stories developing organically seems reasonable. I am seeing that taking place in my own culture.

[@immanuel2036]

God bless you....thank you so much👍🏻❤️✝️🙏

[@noelshabo9497]

Wonderful work thank you God bless

[@urbandsouza7279]

Hallo thomas nice one. Do you all this research yourself or you have a team which assist you. God bless you future generation will always remember you.

[@TAlexander]

I‘m working all alone, but of course I’m relying on all the fabulous work done by many experts in the field.

[@theoldone3835]

@@TAlexander You are doing a wonderful work, Thomas. God bless you.

[@SaintMatthieuSimard]

Apocalypse is the seal of the bible. No removing. No editing. No adding. It's a complete book.

[@paladinhansen137]

Amen and we get a blessing for just reading it! you cant say that for every book!

[@xervexczymycur6226]

I just shake my head when people talk about mumbo-jumbo stuff like apocalypse, seal of the prophet or seal of the bible. Religion is indeed the opium of the people.

[@SaintMatthieuSimard]

@@xervexczymycur6226 - J K Rowling is the seal of Harry Potter. T.R.R. Tolkien is the seal of LOTR.

[@SaintMatthieuSimard]

@@xervexczymycur6226 However how much Cthulhu mytho there is out there, H.P.Lovecraft is the seal of the eldritch of the Necronomicon and all lovecraftian mytho is only done by amateurs, some very good at it, but still amateurs. Lovecraft is a eminent specialist when it comes to things of the Necronomicon. Would you expect anyone else pretending to be more Spinozean than Spinoza? I wouldn't trust somebody telling me he's myselfer than I am either.

[@JacobAdewumi]

Hehehehehe Islam is nothing but a borrow, borrow religion! No wonder the false religion is falling apart, thanks to historical data and the good work of Thomas and Dr. Jay. ✅💙💯 JESUS IS LORD

[@borneandayak6725]

Deus Vult!

[@yakovmatityahu]

Odon and Thomas both said the same thing...Quran is a preaching materials for Preachers later made into scriptures...

[@emmanuelmasih2296]

A lectionary

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@emmanuelmasih2296 yes its official now that Quran was a lexionary of the Bible...they have really messed it up.😐

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@JesusisaMuslim Islam is busted totally abdool...we know what you did in the 7th 8th and 9th century now you cant hide it...Thomas and the Team have defrocked Islam 😁😁😁😁😁😁😅

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@JesusisaMuslim Well if i tell you honestly Germans have been brilliant scholars in history...they are the one who started the Reformation and alot of good christian scholars came from them..so no wonder Thomas the the German team are experts in their fields...

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@JesusisaMuslim Germany has been the Intellectual center of the world for more than 200 years its where the most brilliant minds in the west have come from...Thomas is one of the emerging scholar researching about origins of Islam...

[@moorek1967]

Absolutely it makes sense and I have said it many times. There is absolutely no way Mohammad who died in 632 (supposedly) could have told Abu Bakr to go to the Al Aqsa Mosque that was not built when Mohammad lived.

[@danmannz]

So interesting learning real history and comparing it with early Islam. Gotta love that Muhammad #1, he is defiantly the blessed one alright! (even though the original context was meant to be anti-trinitarian and was referring to Jesus).

[@Dhoom1981]

O Allah, send your prayers and peace always forever Upon your beloved (Muhammad) the best of all creation

[@danmannz]

​@@Dhoom1981 Yes, the original Muhammad #1 is the beloved creator. The later Muhammad #2 is not the best at anything. God Bless You. I hope you find the truth.

[@Dhoom1981]

@@danmannz You could only say amen if you really believe in what you've written in your comment. But you are clearly not

[@danmannz]

​@@Dhoom1981 I was talking to you, not praying to you my brother. I will pray that one day you will know the truth and the life. You will be set free in Jesus name. God will bless you and your family. Amen.

[@Rus-bw2oq]

Islam as a religion was invented in the 17th century not in the 7th century. The person referred as Muhammad is originally the person of what we know in Christianity as Jesus ( originally invented in West-Europe in the 16th century) called Issa in Islam.

[@Dhoom1981]

O Allah, send your prayers and peace always and forever Upon your beloved (Muhammad) the best of all creation

[@secretsofbiblebeenreviled8473]

Praise the Lord Jesus ✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️✝️🙏🙏

[@Dhoom1981]

O Allah, send your prayers and peace always and forever Upon your beloved (Muhammad) the best of all creation

[@secretsofbiblebeenreviled8473]

@@Dhoom1981 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣 Muhammed was pest of creation 😂😂😂

[@Dhoom1981]

@@secretsofbiblebeenreviled8473 Not the best thing to say when you consider that Muhammad could be just a title for Jesus.. like this is just a greek influenced name of him

[@secretsofbiblebeenreviled8473]

@@Dhoom1981 double play 😂😂😂😂😂not working here (hypocrite) 😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@ouss]

Can Thomas elaborate on how the Abbassides were a branch of the Umayyades?

[@moorek1967]

I can prove it. They make the claim that Isa will descend at the White Minaret in Damascus, Syria. What is the other name of the White Minaret? The Ummayid Mosque. It was built by the Ummayids. after 634. Why would any other group make the claim that Jesus will descend at a mosque they built? Because they invented a mohammad.

[@lenormand4967]

​​@@moorek1967Thanks. All prophecy had been fulfilled before news of the Christ, and His ancestors (not Ioudaios) traveled to the East. It was profitable for Anti-Christs to fleece other heretics just before their promised Anti-Christ was to come. It is still going on with "protestants." Support "the enemies of God and all mankind" so Our Lord can come back more times. To clarify, the main eastern exposure came after a Christian City was founded and built up at small ruined fort in the Syrian desert. That happened in the fourth century AD. Sacerdotal fortified cities of peace are "jerusalems," and this place was referenced as one. However, it is not Biblical Jerusalem, just as present day "Egypt" is not Biblical Egypt. Alexander the Great renamed Aeria to "egypt" a couple of hundred years before Christ. Many other places received Biblical place names, but they are not the Biblical places.

[@moorek1967]

@@lenormand4967 Wow, talk about imaginary tales. And you actually believe all that?

[@1202sveiks]

Keep it up Thomas! Great presentation.

[@bentajay2026]

Thankyou Every tied knot makes sense And finally when we untie the knot s a chain of procedure s will form

[@emmanuelhabibmayga7476]

Well done Thomas you have done a good 👍

[@coffeecup7084]

Wow Thomas you are incredible keep it up!

[@zeinkarradi7603]

Good work,. I have a question for Thomas and Dr Smith: Jacob of Edessa wrote in the early umayyad period ca 690 CE about a MAN called Mohammad, a trader. how to explain this very early text from the seventh century?

[@zeinkarradi7603]

@Θεόδωρος there is no mention of "kabisa " in the seventh century documents i think, but here is the text of Jacob of Edessa: ( and Muhammad goes down on commercial business to the lands of Palestine and of the Arabias and of Phoenicia of the Tyrians. There was a solar eclipse. The Persians took captives and wasted all the land of the Romans up to Bithynia and (Western) Asia (Minor) and as far as the Sea of Pontus. Beginning of the kingdom of the Arabs whom we call Tayyiiye, while Heraclius, king of the Romans, was having his eleventh year and while Chosroes, king of the Persians, was having his thirty-first year. The Arabs began to carry out raids in the land of Palestine The Persians killed Chos[roes] and made Shiroe king ... ). im an ex muslim, but i want to see things through historical studies as Dr smith do, but i still have many questions on the historicity of muhammed and the problem of Mecca ect

[@yakovmatityahu]

I read about Jacob of Edessa i couldnt find any such references to a trader Muhammed in mecca...could you make sure you read the real one?.

[@zeinkarradi7603]

@@yakovmatityahu Jacob of Edessa: ( and Muhammad goes down on commercial business to the lands of Palestine and of the Arabias and of Phoenicia of the Tyrians. ) The Seventh Century in the West-Syrian Chronicles page 39

[@RevJay_Rides]

The muslim hopes nobody looks beyond a very shallow glance at their teaching, at their most trusted sources. They would rather glance at it in a shallow way and then listen to teachers which tell them what they want to hear. If anybody digs deeper, it all falls apart like a giant lie.

[@janpahl6015]

excellent... thanks thomas for clarifying to me (as you promised early in your first videos) the "mystery of why Arab first falsafa was from central Asia" and now it´s even more clear why inside this new "evolved" religion died so quickly compared to the Cristian worldho had another "habitat" and "chiche" with a exception at least for a time inside of one of the more romanized areas and also the one more far from central "muslim" power (Al-Andalus).... Now my goal it´s to hear from you about Islam inside the visigothic frist kingdom of Spain and septimania

[@simonhengle8316]

Another excellent presentation Thomas, a quick question; was Abdul al Malik an anti-trinitarian Christian?

[@rengarajaniyengar1309]

THE BRAVE & BOLD JAY SMITH LONG LIVE TO YOU SIR

[@wylderose3878]

@@JesusisaMuslim Jay or you?

[@borneandayak6725]

@@wylderose3878 must be him. Sunni ans Shia is crying when Jay expose them 🤣🤣🤣

[@juerbert1]

Brilliant !! ✅👍

[@feronicastylinson1392]

Woow brilliant!!

[@cascarrabias397]

i love it, great job Thomas.

[@vinayakcc]

Brilliant video of "summarisation" of evolution of Islam from anti-trinitarian Syrian Christianity to what Islam as it is known today. For true genuine Christians this is perfect usecase to showcase how heretic teachings can become a tool against humanity and all that is Godly. Good job team. May God bless you all and use you more for His glory truly. 🙏🙌

[@OdonLafontaine]

Hi Thomas you said at 35:41 the "Christian sources identified Arabs as heretical christians for centuries". What Arabs are you referring to ? We have many Christian sources depicting the Arabs (or some of them) having converted to the "orthodox" faith. There were Arab bishops, such as Peter Abestepos who took part in the Ephesia Council. We still have many traces of an Arab "orthodox" chritianity in Jordan

[@TAlexander]

You are correct of course. I should have been clearer. There have always been both sides to this coin. I was referring to those Arabs whose religion would later become Islam. The proto-Muslims if you will.

[@MU-we8hz]

You can't trust islamic apologetics. For example, i never heard muslim say that mohamed liked man, but he did. Are they ashamed? Sahih Hadith. Sunan Abi Dawud 5224 Narrated Usayd ibn Hudayr,: AbdurRahman ibn AbuLayla, quoting Usayd ibn Hudayr, a man of the Ansar, said that while he was given to jesting and was talking to the people and making them laugh, the Prophet (ﷺ) poked him under the ribs with a stick. He said: Let me take retaliation. He said: Take retaliation. He said: You are wearing a shirt but I am not. The Prophet (ﷺ) then raised his shirt and the man embraced him and began to kiss his side. Then he said: This is what I wanted, Messenger of Allah!

[@wycliffew.woduor1748]

ISLAM has not completely stepped out of the shadows of christianity and judaism. It displays disdain for both, yet it has little to stand on and must rely on christianity and judaism to remain upright. The real Jesus has a formidable CV and the degraded form of Isa had to be invented and stood in the queue behind Mohd.

[@mauricebordage7266]

Merci

[@hiview44]

Great Job Thomas. Horus does not dispute facts but only conclusions reached at using these facts. Mohammad is a real historical person and Horus raise his wings and applaud you Thomas for discovering that he was a preacher before becoming a prophet. No one has ever mentioned that on Dr. J's sifting channel.... 🧐 Now, you are closer to the man, as Doc like to call him.... 🙃 Horus knows him by name as mentioned in the TIN not the SIN.... 😇 Horus truly loves this series with Thomas ... Just like he loves German cars.... 😎

[@andrewcole4843]

Early 20th century German tradition got me interested. Ironic that it now brings a consistent conclusion.

[@Indah-tjs]

Dear Thomas please let me leave a comment in German.... Ich hatte bereits unter einem anderen deiner Videos kommentiert... wenn dir daran gelegen ist, dass deine (und auch entsprechende Teile von Dr. Jay) mit gut lesbaren deutschen Untertiteln versehen und repostet werden, bin ich gern dazu bereit. Ich lebe in Südost Asien, habe jedoch in Deutschland Schule und Universität besucht. Seit Jahren beschäftige ich mich mit dem Islam, dessen Ursprünge und seinen heutigen gesellschaftlichen Einfluss, der auch in Deutschland und in Europa in Form einer Islamisierung von innen immer stärker zu beobachten und zu spüren ist. Bitte lass mich deine Entscheidung wissen, danke dafür. Ich empfinde grossen Respekt und Dankbarkeit für deine so wertvollen Arbeiten. Alles Gute und Gottes Segen 💕

[@TAlexander]

Hallo Indah, wenn Du Dir die Arbeit machen möchtest, dann wäre das natürlich toll. Untertitel helfen dabei die Videos zugänglicher zu machen. Insofern fände ich jede zusätzliche Sprache natürlich fantastisch.

[@PeterHarremoes]

Thomas, in the video you claim that the Abbasides were are branch of the Umayyads. Do you have references on that.

[@TAlexander]

I have it from Raymond Dequin‘s article called "Frühe ʿAlī-Verehrung und die Schöpfung des abbasidischen Weltbilds" He found the references in old chronicles, for example the chronicle of Zuqnin. Later historiographers like Tabari basically tell the same story, but they omit the name Abbas, son of Walid. Which seems to be done in an effort to remove all family ties between Abbasids and Umayyads. In an anonymous chronicle from the year 1234, it even explicitly states that the name "Abbasids" is derived from Abbas, son of Walid, not Abbas the uncle of Muhammad.

[@jeffmoreau6844]

One Mohamed, two Mohamed, red Mohamed, blue Mohamed

[@santhiramorgan8329]

Thomas, could I have Raymond Dequin's 2012 article reference. It doesn't matter if it's in German. TQ

[@heikobraun7757]

Thank you for this great explanation! But one question I still have: Muhammad II - was he a real historical person to whom this preacher- and prophet-stories were attributet in retrospective? - or was he completle made up as a fictive person?

[@TAlexander]

In many ways it's irrelevant. If there was a real person, he would have been completely different from anything we are told in the Standard Islamic Narrative. Nothing of his biography would even be anywhere close to real events. There is for instance the theory that Umar was the person who was later interpreted to be the Muhammad. Or maybe there really was a simple preacher who only preached this anti-Trinitarian form of Christianity and who was later elevated in the narrative, centuries after the fact. Or it could have been multiple people who were merged in the narrative. What we can say with a high degree of certainty is that the Muhammad of the Standard Islamic Narrative did not exist. So for all intends and purposes, I'd say he was NOT a real person. If there was a real person upon whom the later Muhammad narrative was projected, to the point of him being completely unrecognisable, it would be as if he never existed. With all of that out of the way, my personal opinion is that there wasn't even anyone upon whom this Muhammad narrative was projected. I think he is complete fiction. A result of later generations reading the Muhammad title into the Quran in places where the unnamed preacher speaks who seems to be at the bottom of the original lectionary. I might be wrong of course, and I might change my opinion going forward. But if I do, then as I elaborated above, it wouldn't make any difference anyway.

[@manub.3847]

Misunderstandings due to incorrect dots and accents above/below letters also have a tradition in German, French and other languages. If one removes the umlaut marking (dots or the addition "e") from some words, for example in German, sometimes undefinable neologisms arise or one does not understand, with the best will in the world, what the interlocutor actually wanted to say: "..die Mücke sticht" vs. "..die Mucke* sticht" * Mucke = colloquially music ~ [ "the mosquiito bites" vs. " the music stings"]

[@hans471]

Das Beispiel istvetwas bemüht 😄😉

[@yalineclaire1969]

Wow, fascinating

[@ast3663]

caliph Al Ma'mun also was the one who ordered to break into the great pyramid od giza for treasure hunt. The tunnel we go in today is named 'Mamun's tunnel'.

[@mariaveritas2886]

Can you really do a timeline of these people and events that we can study for ourselves??

[@gnosticquran]

Fascinating research! Thomas mostly on points, but i would suggest manichean origins of NawBahr temple, manicheism in eastern parts of Iran would have been indistingushible from buddhism.

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

What does "Taken from Ibn Ishaaq (Post 768 AD)" mean? And why is it interpreted that way? It sounds like you're saying that parts of the Quran post date even Ibn Ishaaq - is that is, and if so how do we know?

[@Louis.R]

Brilliant analysis of the retroactive use made of Abraham, as "prior to Judaism and Christianity" and therefore useful to trace a new lineage, via Hagar and Ishmael, leading up to Mohammed. However, if the Arabs were already referred to as Hagarenes and Ishmaelites, does this retroactive lineage pre-date the Abbasid constructions of Islam? I.e., what did Jews of the 4-7th centuries think about the Arabs as "Ishmaelites" (knowing as I do, that they accept the claim, without it carrying any covenental weight)?

[@ilyasqabtani8724]

Thomas & Jay, Can you please dive deeper to a Buddhist site in Balk that become inspiration of stories Muhammad & Kabba?

[@samspade225]

Hi, I am scrolling the comment section and wonder if you receive any comments or questions from muslims with substantial content an not only just angry and insulting harangues? Maybe they send emails to you?

[@doritaprowse5220]

NICE KNOWING THIS, EXELLENT EXPLANATION, THANK YOU THOMAS, AND DR. J SMITH. GOD BLESS🙏🙏🙏

[@kaneinkansas]

This has to merge in with known history, beginning with the conquest of the Maghreb and then Spain. Arabs pushed on into France where they were defeated by Charles Martel at the battle of Tours in 732. The Ummayads remained in control of Spain, while the Abbasids took the rest, although Western Morocco was also never conquered or controlled by the Abbasids. Does the Islam of Andalusia differ from that of the Abbasids? What created Arab cohesion to motivate and mount these conquests? If the Andalusian Islam is basically the same as the Abbasid Islam then both would have had to been created before 750.

[@yakovmatityahu]

French should be proud of the guy charles martel...

[@theelder5505]

Brethren, I suggest that we not call them Arabs, but muslims

[@alonzoharris6730]

His conspiracy theory has big holes. He has to qualify all sources that doesn't suit him as interpolations. The guy is simply dishonest. Notice how he accepts non muslim sources that have zero manuscripts without any hesitation. He is just a propagandist.

[@sheikhboyardee556]

@@alonzoharris6730 Makes sense to me. Maybe you could refute what he and others say by presenting your own evidence for not only Mohammad but the validity of Islam in general? You're just name calling.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@sheikhboyardee556 I have done that. Read the other comments. We have 97% of the Quran in manuscripts from the 7th century. This debunks his whole theory and claim. It's also ridiculous to claim that a group of people who used a script couldn't read and understand their script. That's like claiming that the 5th century Syriac people couldn't read the Syriac script because it nowhere looks like the Syriac script of the 10th century. What kind of nonsense is that? Notice how he makes all sorts of claims about Arabs. But he rejects every Arabic source.

[@MrDrbld]

Hey, success on sound at last...:)

[@mahinmunir6138]

Considering your presentation, who is buried in the tomb of Medina, or is it just a tomb and not a burial place?

[@daro8593]

Does Birmingam Quran have any changes that cairo 1924?

[@ross3818]

Fascinating, but Thomas's audio is so compressed it's nearly unintelligible. What are the salient details which distinguish Catholic Christianity from Jewish Christianity?

[@redleaf4902]

Sunday Jan 16th 2022 (Quebec_Canada 03h28) ___ Hello Thomas, Jay and Fellow Listeners. I am trying to solve an audio problem and need your help. Since Thomas got his new microphone, the volume is MUCH better. However, there is a choppiness in the sound of Thomas' audio (not Jay's), and not just for this presentation; I am hearing this choppiness on previous videos as well: _ once in a while, the sound 'stalls' on a syllable _ more often, syllables just do not come through _ this is occurring for every 3rd or 4th word. I read the list of CAUSES at a web page entitled “Why is the audio breaking up or choppy sometimes?” Since I am not hearing the choppiness when Jay speaks, since I am hearing the choppiness only when Thomas speaks, should I wonder : _is this is a cable issue at Thomas' end? _is this a 'delay effect' due to a so-called 'satellite feed lag'? _is this issue due to a problem in my system? _why do I not hear this same 'choppiness' when Mel is on with Jay? For the moment, I am listening to the video at speed .75. This gives my brain time to 'fill in' the sounds / syllables that I am not hearing. Thank you in advance for suggestions.

[@TAlexander]

Unfortunately, I’m not a great public speaker. When I’m nervous (which I am when going in front of the camera), I do tend to speak in a very choppy kind of way. Which then probably gets exasperated by the algorithm Zoom uses to reduce the file-size, making it sound even choppier. The only thing that could help here is more practice on my part. But I guess that’s a slow process. One thing I did do was to replace the microphone once again. I actually wasn’t happy with the sound quality. I returned the mic and got a new one which is brilliant. So from now on, there are no excuses anymore, it’s going to be all me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@redleaf4902]

@@TAlexander Hi Thomas! I would not have guessed that public speaking is nerve-racking for you. Your passion for the topic and vast knowledge carries you well! I will wait to see if the new mic eliminates the choppiness. But, I can assure you of one thing: what I am hearing is definitely an 'audio-transmission' issue, NOT your vocal delivery. Merci beaucoup. Waving from VERY cold Quebec (-30 C).

[@redleaf4902]

@@TAlexander ____ ...Afterthought: You know, Thomas, now that you've revealed your 'public speaking' secret, it is kindov funny, that, of a l l the human beings on the planet with whom you could have chosen to 'go on camera', you ended up with Good Ol', Mountains of Northern India, Five-Gallon Lungs, Speakers' Corner, Jay'. That's is kindov funny; hee, hee, hee. 🤭

[@TAlexander]

@@redleaf4902 TBH, I'm glad to have someone who can carry a conversation as well as Jay can. We all have certain gifts, public speaking isn't one of mine. Which is actually another reason why I've decided to start my own KZbin channel. It gives me a chance to practice. By recording myself, I really learn a lot about myself which is quite amazing, not just about my voice but about my behaviour overall, particularly under stress.

[@redleaf4902]

@@TAlexander ___ So many people around the world have been crowding onto this train that's been slowly climbing a mountain and we've all been impatient to get to the top. We all are so different from one another and yet we all have been longing to understand this thing called 'Islam'. I was walking down a hall with a friend as she walked to class, even though my own was the other way; I was going to just finishing a conversation, then turn and go my own way. As we concluded our exchange, I came to a stop in the doorway to a classroom and at the front, there were maps of the Middle East on the wall, and the man was talking about linguistics; I was like a deer, frozen in headlights, staring and listening; the professor waved me in; for some reason, I walked in and sat down; there were only guys in the room, and one Catholic nun in her fifties; flip flops on my feet, wearing my ripped jeans, dangling earrings, twenty bangles on each wrist and loudly chewing gum, I was quite the misfit, but then all I could see was what was on the wall and board; words in Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew; I was stunned; thinking, 'What the hell is this? What is this class?" This mystery, we are drawn to, has been slowly pulling people to it, like a magnet, people from all over the world. And so, here we all are; so very different from one another, thirsting to figure this thing out. I was once on a train, going up a mountain in Switzerland; there were people from all over the world on the train, we each looked so different from one another, yet we all wanted to be on that train, as it ever so slowly chugged and chugged up and up, to get to the top. We're each of us, misfits in our own way, drawn to this story, this mystery of Islam. We're all on that train, hoping to find out "who done it".

[@DG-sn2js]

Time to learn the German language. Babel on order now!

[@P.H.888]

The Hebrew Scriptures are complete from Genesis to Revelation. From Adam to Yeshua ~ Jesus. The first Adam to The Last ✝️🕊 The Prophets were from Israel ~ trained in The Scriptures very well versed John The Baptist was The Last Prophet JESUS CHRIST IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY THE GOD in The Tanahk ( old covenant) is 3 in 1 YHVH ~ YHVH WORD ~ YHVH MESSENGER IN THE NEW COVENANT FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT JESUS CHRIST AFTER HIS ASCENSION AND RETURNED TO HIS DIVINITY SHARING GLORY WITH THE FATHER JESUS SENT THE PROMISED 🕊HOLY SPIRIT 🔥 HE indwells every True believer and follower of CHRIST JESUS THE LORD COMPLETE NO NEED FOR ANYTHING ELSE Mo ham mad was not of Israel A nomad in the wilderness of Arabia Illiterate! What would we expect if someone tried to make a new religious political system It would be incoherent incomplete incorrect in text history and science and religion with a evolution and contradictions Highly influenced by the male dominated culture ~ the sword. Not the pen. He is Not a prophet in The true scriptural sense But A great metaphor ~ showing us all the errors of adding & taking away from YHVH true WORD ~ JESUS CHRIST WHO IS ETERNAL INCORRUPTIBLE CAME DOWN IMMUTABLE FULL OF GRACE ABLE TO DEAL WITH YOUR SIN & SPIRITUAL DEATH ✝️🕊♥️🙏🏿🙏🏽🙏🏻 HALLELUYAH HOLY HOLY HOLY IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY ETERNAL

[@borneandayak6725]

The later Surah, for example Qs 12:20 and Qs 3:75. Both of this Surahs use the currency term "dirham" and "dinar". Both currency only existed during the time of Abdul Malik, so both Surah must be written during the time of Abdul Malik.

[@preapple]

It would be worthwhile to compare the Ummayad Quran to the Abbasid Quran

[@dalelangley9666]

Please forgive me for changing the subject , but I wanted to find a current video to make sure you read it . I will try to be brief . If you read the Book of Esther you will see that Queen Esther and her cousin Mordecai , in the 500’s BC converted all of Persia to Judaism . But if you check secular history , you will find that during that period , someone named Zoroaster converted everyone in Persia to Zoroastrianism . I would suggest that Zoroaster was Mordecai , which would make Zoroastrianism an Abrahamic Religion . There is a lot more to it , but I am trying to be brief . I have never heard anyone else make this suggestion , but it seems obvious to me . Queen Esther was the grandmother of Cyrus the Great .

[@shanefisher2]

You probably answered this question, but it is difficult sifting through all the comments. Can you provide a link where those two German books translated into English can be found.

[@TAlexander]

You can find them on Amazon or many other places. The titles of the English translations are: The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History and Early Islam: A Critical Reconstruction Based on Contemporary Sources Both edited by Karl-Heinz Ohlig. If you're interested, you should start with the first one, that's the better one IMHO and the second one builds in part on the first. Or you can wait for my book which will contain a lot of the information of both (though of course since I'll cover a lot more ground, I naturally won't we able to go into as much detail, but hopefully it will also be a lot more accessible).

[@tarnos4153]

Is the second part of Quran relate to the writing of Ishaq, Hisham, and the whole slew of hadiths?

[@Youhnanbinzacharia]

@Thoma time ago I asked question if Harun Alrasheed real person but unfortunately I didn’t get any answer. An I heard in your video you mentioned hem as the father of Alma’moun. I know much about hem from 1000 and one night but is there are any archeological evidence about his existence? Somebody said that that we have coins from the period of his reign but if you look carefully to his name Harun Alrasheed we can extract the name of brother of Mozes Aron and he was wise and high priest and God selected hem to talk to pharaoh in place of Mozes because Mozes could not speak. Is there any related fact behind that? And what about the brother of Alma’moun had the same issue of fictional characters same as his father? Thanks.

[@Thewatchman303]

Could you cite the ref for Tertullian's 'seal of the prophets' statement if you have a chance please?

[@TAlexander]

It’s from chapter 8 of his book "Adversus Iudaeos" (Against the Jews). You can find it in Latin in "Quinti Septimii Florentis Tertulliani Opera Omnia. T. O. Weigel, 1854, pages 1134-1135"

[@TAlexander]

This is what Tertullian literally says about Jesus: "Therefore, since the prophecy was fulfilled through His advent, he said that vision and prophecy were sealed, because HE IS THE SEAL OF ALL PROPHETS, fulfilling all things which in days bygone they had announced of Him.“ Or in Latin: "Quoniam omnes prophetae nuntiabant de illo, quod esset venturus et pati haberet, igitur quoniam adimpleta est prophetia per adventum eius, propterea signari visionem et prophetiam dicebat, quoniam IPSE EST SIGNACULUM OMNIUM PROPHETARUM adimplens omnia quae retro de eo nuntiaverant."

[@Thewatchman303]

@@TAlexander Wow, that is super! Thank you

[@rdcdt6302]

It melt my brain

[@telesniper2]

That explains why Muhammed (one of em) forbid anyone making any image of him. He didn't want the jig to be up

[@StevieAF]

How do you account for the Shia Sunni split? Was that retrofitted also?

[@-BigIi-]

I am wondering: does Thomas get death threats? That's how these guys are - you begin to investigate their false beliefs based on evidence and they begin to send you death threats.. religion of peace at work.

[@TAlexander]

So far, I'm all good *knock on wood* I've been slandered, but not threatened. The fact that I have such a common name may help of course. But I'm counting on the good in people. As humans, I believe that we're all curious by nature and I'm offering a perspective many haven't seen before, which I base on verifiable facts that anyone can double-check. I hope that I can spark this curiosity even if people vehemently disagree with my conclusions.

[@RajPatel-ri4zn]

26:00 Many people have been lead to believe all Sassanid subjects were Zoroastrian and Zoroastrianism had existed since the dawn of the Iranian peoples in the form it was practiced during the twighlight of the Sassanid Empire. While not totally wrong, it's not perfectly true. In the East, Buddhism was thriving. In fact, Central Asia, on both sides of the Oxus River, could be considered the heartland of Buddhism. I don't know if Thomas is talking about Mazar-i Sharif, or somewhere else, but Mazar-i Sharif is said to have been a Buddhist monastery/seminary. We don't know what religion Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni was before becoming Muslim. We do know that the Ghorids, who overthrew the Ghazni Sultanate, had been Buddhists before converting to "Islam". The fact that Muslims lost touch with the original koranic materials and religion suggests they were Iranians and Turks from the edges of the empire who were some other religion prior to entering the fold. Buddhism works. It would also explain why Muhammad is no longer an honorific for Jesus, but basically a Warlord's answer to Buddha. Kinda like GI Joe built off the success of Barbie.

[@Thewatchman303]

I think it would have been useful to understand what state the Koran was broadly in, according to your understanding, over the timeline you presented. I appreciate you have covered that question in other videos.

[@TAlexander]

Interestingly enough, my view has somewhat changed over the course of this series. When we started out, my position was that the Quran was likely close to being complete by the beginning of the 8th century. I think I may even have said something along those lines in one of the earlier videos. Now, after reading some more current papers on the issue in preparation for some of these videos, I have revised my opinion. I now think that the Quran was likely a product of the Abbasid era, that there were precursors (a proto-Quran if you will), but that the book as we know it today did not exist before 750 and likely wasn't complete until the 9th century.

[@Thewatchman303]

@@TAlexander Thank you.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@TAlexander That's an absurd position. 97% of the Quran is in manuscripts from the 7th century. It's ridicilous to claim that the Quran was not complete in the 7th century. You need to prove that instead of making that claim.

[@borneandayak6725]

@@alonzoharris6730 haha, you are absurd and nonsense. All of the earliest Quranic manusript just a skeletal Aramaic letters without dots...later, the Abbasid put dots in it, changing the real meaning of the text. I saw it in our Indonesian translation of the Quran, its an interepretation version of the Quran than a translation. That what the Abbasid did when they copy the Aramaic Christian Quran, they put dots in it and change the real meaning of the word. Thats how the pagan Arab, Persian and Turkic people create their own version of Quran, in order for them to create a new religion.

[@paulellis5101]

I am still uncertain (to put it mildly) about the significance of the word 'Mahamad' (as it was originally vocalised) in the Qur'an. I am, as always, grateful for Thomas for sharing his insights which help to clarify the issues, but do not, to my mind resolve them. The term 'mahamad(im)' was used in Ezekiel and Song of Songs to refer to the destroyed but longed-for temple using a spousal metaphor and in the gospels Jesus associates his body with the temple and uses spousal metaphors for himself (in the parables of the wedding feast and of the bridesmaids). However, I see no basis on which to read this temple-specific meaning into the four uses of mhmd (five including Q.61.6) in the Qur'an. Similarly, there is, I think, ample evidence of an Arab warlord - for Jacob of Edessa the first Arab king - calling himself Mahamad in the 620s-630s (see especially the British Library fragment). Since this figure, whom I assume is also the Qur'an's principal author, is seeking to conquer Jerusalem (see Sebeos) there may well be a temple-connection to his choice of name. However, again I do not see any evidence from either the historical sources or the Qur'an that this figure identified his body with the temple as Jesus had done. I am increasingly thinking that 'Muhammad II' adopted his title to emulate the prophet Daniel who is addressed as 'Ish Hamudot' (10.11). The Qur'an has some interesting parallels with the Book of Daniel: apocalyptic visions explained to an anonymous prophet (anonymous other than for the title in qurstion) by the angel Gabriel, with Michael also mentioned (also note the Jerusalem qibla). The connotations of the temple and Jesus may have made the title attractive, but it may be possible to see more in them than Muhammad II actually claimed for himself. I would add that I agree that this is an area where the Qur'an text seems to have been particularly compromised by later editing. Q.47.2 is, to my mind, an even more obvious post-Mahamad interpolation that Q.33.40. 47.1-2 reads: 1. Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of God-He has made their deeds go astray. 2. and those who believe and perform righteous deeds, *and believe in what has been sent down unto Muhammad- and it is the truth from their Lord-* He has absolved them of their evil deeds and set their state aright. Clearly those who disbelieve in 47.1 (‘alladhīna kafarū’) are being contrasted with those who believe (‘alladhīna āmanū‘) in 47.2. The former are referred to by the word ‘kāfir‘, often rendered ‘disbeliever’ but literally meaning ‘one who covers’, Ie those who know but conceal the truth. Those who believe, on the other hand, are promised that God will remove (‘kaffara’ )- their evil deeds. This succinct symmetry of opposites, emphasised by the wordplay with ‘kāfir‘ and ‘kaffara’, has been interrupted by the addition of the words *'and believe in what has been sent down unto Muhammad - and it is the truth from their Lord’*. This defining sub-clause obviously detracts from the generality of 'those who believe and perform righteous deeds' and in so doing spoils the originally intended effect, whilst clumsily repeating the word ‘believe’ in a way that that the original author is unlikely to have appreciated.

[@alonzoharris6730]

How do you explain these passages are found in the 7th century manuscripts like Codex Arabe 331 and Codex Is. 1615 I?

[@paulellis5101]

@@alonzoharris6730 An early interpolation. The warlord Mahamad died before the Arab conquest of Jerusalem (per Shoemaker) and the consonatal text was fixed by 645 (Birmingham). That leaves ten years for the warlord's followers to fix the order of surahs and make a few tweaks. Ample time to put in short passages like this.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@paulellis5101 You are just making that up. Do you have evidence for interpolation? It's funny that you only call these people warlords. But you have nothing to say about the brutal Byzantine empire who invaded the middle east. Greek pagans who enslave Semitic people. Thr Semitic people just sent them home. I'm glad they did that. This brutal byzantine and roman empire has done enough damage in the middle east.

[@paulellis5101]

@@alonzoharris6730 I have not made up the quotation from the Qur'an. It is there for all to read. I haven't digressed to talk of all the warlords throughout history because that would serve no purpose other than to obfuscate the issue under discussion.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@paulellis5101 What is your evidence for interpolation? Because you want to impose your own taste and rules on the text? Do you have evidence for interpolation? Do you have manuscript evidence for interpolation?

[@OdonLafontaine]

Hi THomas, did you get my email ?

[@TAlexander]

Yes, thank you very much. I’ll respond later today. Still thinking about good questions for you to take with you.

[@OdonLafontaine]

@@TAlexander OK !

[@astrazenica7783]

Muhammad Alpha, Beta and Delta Virus 😷

[@ivanbrizida]

Guys, if possible, I would like to see a presentation about how the QIBLAS fit in this narrative. Which was the first mosque, who build it and when. And the next, and the next. Did Abul Al Malik built a mosque ? If not who did it and why it pointed to Petra? How and when they mixed paganism (the Qaba and the black stone) with anti-trinitarian Chistianity and judaism? I believe this is key and must be explained. Can you bring Dan Gibson to the SIN SIFTERS ?

[@earthlycreature8772]

Also note that in the Quran there's no mention of the Islamic Muhammad as being a prophet but a messenger and neither was the Quran given to him. The word 'muhammad' is written in the same way in Syriac (adressing Yaso, Isa, Yusha or Jesus) as Muhammad in Arabic, Even the highly educated and scholarly Muslims address Muhammad as rasul-allah and never as nabi-allah and they are totally ignorant about their own 'invented' holy scripture.

[@pankaja7974]

Lot of stuff today. Wow.

[@MU-we8hz]

@@JesusisaMuslim 😂😂😂😂 Without lies, islam dies.

[@theoldone3835]

​@@JesusisaMuslim Prove what you say are lies, giving evidentiary proofs and references.

[@kwamemaatranyame-mentuhote9952]

menahem ben amminel is the blue print for "muhammad" also the christian paraclete muhumna

[@charlesiragui2473]

Wow. So many gaps in the alternative history filled here. Awesome synthesis of information and hypotheses to create a plausible overarching thesis. The appearance of the Prophet Muhammad (M II) comes in two or three phases: 1) as the preacher of the anti-trinitarian lectionary, 2) as the prophet receiving the scripture/revelation and, perhaps, 3) as the fully explained creator of the Arab Empire, blending religion and politics. If I followed, 1) dates to the Umayyad early 8th century, 2) dates to the Abbasid late 8th century and, perhaps, 3) dates to the early 9th century. Parallel to these transitions is the fading of spoken Aramaic and the spread of Arabic as the primary means of communication. Central to that increasing significance of Arabic is the progressive codification of Arabic itself, a codification independent of Aramaic, and even ignorant of Aramaic (the codification was being done largely by Persians who would have contact with Semitic through the unique Arabic vector). Jay asked a great question: would "early" and "late" Quran passages relate to the Meccan and Medinan sura division? I take it that there is some truth to this. The Meccan passages have been called the passages with more theological emphasis and more peaceful exhortation. This would map to Christian preaching. The Medinan, more aggressive suras, would correspond to later additions with more political intentions of Arab empire leadership. Is this a fair understanding?

[@TAlexander]

I would say this is a good summary.

[@Ka112eb]

They even stole stories that were told to the tourists. Without lies Islam dies So what about the rashidun caliphs? How come there is a Sunni Shia split of Ali was fictional? Why invent Abu bake giving his baby girl to Muhammad?

[@Sing2HIM]

Historical .. Textual.. and Source Criticisms are the greatest enemies of Islam..

[@MBiernat0711]

Of the “Muhammad” mentions were later but BEFORE the constitution of Hadith - the “Muhammad” insertor was a Christian sympathetic. The “Ahmad” would be the reference of the Holy Spirit.let us say most of the Quran is an early collection- based on early Christianity, the Muhammad references inserted around the building of the Dome of the Rock, and the Hadith made up later to cover up the references

[@elizabethgeorge4708]

Very very good. GBU both. Christ Jesus, praise and glory be to his holy eternal name is the praised one , Yahweh with us.

[@mikkelhansen9419]

I think it is completely wrong to call Islam a religion when Islam calls itself DEEN, and especially because the DEEN deals with all aspects of life.

[@rob7724]

Eh... the term "deen" can be applied to any religion with it's own "deen"

[@mikkelhansen9419]

@@rob7724 When we talk about Islam, then we must necessarily use concepts in accordance with Islam understanding and meaning of the term. Religion covers three things Faith( the God you believe in) Way of worship ( prayer or pooja) Some social rituals (wedding ceremony, After death body will be burned or burried in grave) Deen covers not only above three things but in addition to these it provides guidance in other respects of life, like: Islamic contract law Islamic family law Islamic Inheritance law Islamic civil law Islamic criminal law Islamic political system Islamic economic system Islamic social and moral system Basically, Islam provides guidance in every aspect of life, and not limited to certain spiritual things and social rituals. Thats why Islam is called deen and other are called religions.

[@rob7724]

@@mikkelhansen9419 Yeah, but that's just details, which of course, different with others. Some Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc would say the same thing about whether they would call their "religion", a religion :) Thing is, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion.

[@samuelmorales2344]

@@mikkelhansen9419 religion is belief. Islam is not just belief. Belief doesn't seem to be required for it. It involves orthopraxy like Judaism. Judaism itself is not a religion but the word is anachronistically used as convenience to label it as a religion. "Judaism" original meaning is "the ways of being a Judean" or basically Jewish culture. Caracalla did not care if he or other people believed Serapis existed but he mandated that people in the empire to pay honor and dues to the deity the correct way. "Religio" was not about belief principally but rather more to do with tradition and superstition. In the Christian religion, belief is the only way to be saved.

[@mikkelhansen9419]

@@rob7724 All that does not matter, as long as there are claims that the text is divine and it makes a pedophile killer a role model, preaches racism, sexism and anti-democracy.