Office Hours - Dancers (Fire Emblem Design)

[@NotBoeDusky101]

I personally like dancers being able to fight it’s why olivia is my favorite dancer because if I don’t want her to dance i can make her a good unit without just being stuck dancing

[@flintlocke1344]

In regards to your question of “why would you as a developer give players an option that’s objectively worse than most other options;” I think if FE games fully believed that there should only be good or “optimal” options, they would be less fun for many players (I can say for sure they’d be less fun for me). Folks who love training Nino or Donnel. Folks who think Seth makes FE8 less exciting. Folks who love deploying swordmasters and snipers as their army’s powerhouses. So my answer to your question is that “what one person sees as superfluous and suboptimal, might be the coolest thing ever for someone else.” It’s less ‘more options is inherently better’ and moreso ‘every Pokemon is someone’s favorite Pokemon’

[@MythrilZenith]

@@flintlocke1344 Totally fair and understandable. There's definitely a sliding scale of freedom of expression that all games fall somewhere on, and Fire Emblem is going to be on the higher end by design. Good strategy games are like puzzles with multiple possible solutions. If you narrow down the ways certain pieces can be used, you might make it easier for players to find a solution, but making it too easy means the player loses out on the fun of actually finding that answer. While I might personally believe there's no real purpose to specifically giving combat to dancers, I ALSO am a proponent for having a variety of units both good and bad in games for the player to play with, so it's not really cut and dry. Ultimately it comes down at some level to personal preference, and while I can back up my beliefs with rational arguments it doesn't mean other people can't back their opposing beliefs as well. Coming off too hot was kind of the name of this video, hence why the majority of these talking points were fully cut from UD101.

[@flintlocke1344]

@ I know this isn’t the current video but I just wanted to check back in with a development on my slightly-less-hypothetical rom hack that is relevant to this discussion. I’ve elected to give my dancer minor combat capabilities, but there are asterisks on that. The first asterisk is that she can only use a single PRF tome which itself can only be acquired by unlocking her C support with a specific character, and the second asterisk is that due to her basically-nonexistent combat stats she realistically would only be capable of finishing a weakened target. I do have a reason to give her combat, which is that I want her to learn new songs as she levels up. The ability to earn kill EXP allows players an option that can get her to new songs faster, if they’re willing to risk moving a fragile support unit to the front lines and forgo some EXP for their combat units. I think this situation is preferable to one where the only way one could feasibly unlock cool features is by sitting next to the throne and spamming dances until you hit the level cap.

[@AlexT7916]

25:21 Yup, Special Dance was in both Three Houses as the Class Mastery skill for Dancer and in Engage as Seadal's/Dancer's level 25 skill

[@HeatedDeath94]

I was super excited to see this video come up! Love your work!

[@MrongandNote]

Combat dancers in the later sandbox style fire emblem games have been a blast to play with. It’s an extra way to augment my experience that doesn’t get too out of hand. Azura getting the warp ability from the witch class (magic is always a viable combat build for Fates Azura) busted open the viability of her utility (sure it was dlc, but I am always down to pay to augment my experience if it’s fun enough). 3 Houses sword avoid dancer skill made my Ferdinand and Felix un-hittable in Maddening while also having the opportunity to give their action to someone else while effectively enemy phasing mobs of enemies. Engage took off the training wheels for player phase and options for dancing. I don’t make Sedall player phase, but I did engrave his defensive fists with avoid and dodge with Camilla ring. Flying dancer is fun. I can’t speak for awakening’s combat dancer. I never used her

[@fseifgwevgwef]

I wonder if the dancer will be s tier or s tier?

[@MythrilZenith]

@@fseifgwevgwef No letter tiers here, it's just a sorting method!

[@kirant]

I might disagree with the point you have posited around the 32 minute mark. More specifically, I'd reverse the sentiment somewhat: there is a handful of conditions that allow games to be stronger through that focus; games which are focused on "skill expression", where games are more focused on showing you can do something, are better served with this mindset. My favourite argument would be the PvE genre: games like Deep Rock Galactic or the Helldivers series. These games are 4 players (maximum) where you can customize your equipment to (at the minimum) include a primary weapon and a secondary. In Deep Rock Galactic, you can select multiple mutually exclusive upgrades to your weapon while Helldivers will supplement it with picking a small number of "Stratagems", abilities on cooldown that you can call in. I think what most players in this specific genre find is that player expression is a major element of keeping the game fresh. In fact, I would argue it is part of why Deep Rock Galactic had such a cult following until it blew up in popularity a year or two ago. When the matches are short (40 minutes tops for both games, typically) and there are only so many permutations of weapons everyone can use, being able to show off what makes your load out unique is a major element to the game. The social environment that exists in the game and the friendly nature of the fandom, I would argue, comes partly from the fact that players know the challenge isn't always extreme and can play exactly how they want. Helldivers II actually went through the opposite issue, where there was significant player complaint that the game was becoming too much about "playing the game the developer's way" through continual nerfs as it only allowed a handful of practical solutions to a problem. While I personally enjoyed the game in that state, a shift in the developer approach to be more open in its approaches has been received far more positively. To reach at the topic from a higher level, I think it depends on what exactly the game is focused on. If the game is meant to be one where the focus is on skill expression, then the game is better served with guiding the player to explore their options. FPS schmups like Doom Eternal are focused on giving you a chance to explore your arsenal so you know what will be best served in later stages when the developers really pull out all the stops. Conversely, a game focused on narrative or other elements (e.g., the above games I would argue are focused as a social game, where a lot of the fun is derived from being able to play with friends) is better served by guiding the player to pick and choose what elements of the game they want to use without judgment or a "push" if they go a different direction. As an example on the narrative end, I would argue Fallout and Elder Scroll games generally follow the trend (how much it does depends on which entry you're discussing exactly) as the combat is an element to serve the role playing and aren't the end-all of it. Maybe it's me becoming a old man (by internet standards) and thinking "most games" is a bit too broad a catch-all in this situation.

[@MythrilZenith]

That's fair. Thanks for the well thought-out response! I agree that there's strength in both approaches, and that "most" was probably far-reaching. It's a personal preference of mine and thus the games I gravitate towards tend to reflect that mindset, but just because it's my preference doesn't mean it's the only good route, or even the best route for all situations.

[@AlexT7916]

Shouldn't Emblem Veronica also be included in Damcer-ish since she can restore a units action at the cost of said unit not being able to move? (at least that's how I think it works)

[@MythrilZenith]

@@AlexT7916 Yeah probably. I didn't buy the Engage DLC so I often forget about what's in it.

[@AlexT7916]

@MythrilZenith Camilla who's bassically Corrin with a coat of paint, Soren who's another mage Emblem that was sorely missed with the ability to make enemies prioritize a certain ally, Hector who's big tanky boy and Veronica who summons and the aformentioned action refresh

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL MythrilZenith videos!!!! ❤

[@BigfloXOXO]

Oooh excited for this one!

[@quillarmike6947]

One reason a developer might give players an objectively worse option is as a teaching tool. If a player can see that one option is objectively bad, and analyze how and why it's bad, it can help them learn what makes options good in the first place. A non Fire Emblem Example is Cyan from Final Fantasy 6. His strength and HP are both very high and he can equip good weapons and armor, but he's still considered one of the worst characters in that game. This is because his special abilities take real time to charge up, and lock you into his menu, preventing you from using the rest of your party's turns until he's done. He makes a good first impression as he's alone the first time you can use him, but by struggling to use him in a full party, the player will learn the importance of the action economy in the ATB system.

[@MythrilZenith]

@@quillarmike6947 Also a perfect example of how a systems change can act as a buff or nerf to certain characters. Some versions of FF6 iirc change how his skills work so that even if HE is still locked in charging the rest of your party isn't, which makes him far better despite not touching his numbers at all.

[@DrakonLameth]

Some silly comments about 3 Houses -- sure, it's a suboptimal example on a difficulty where it doesn't matter, but I had an Ignatz with Sword Avoid and the Sword Dance weapon art seeing 20-25% hit out of normal-difficulty enemy Assassins and Swordmasters, so I'm sure someone running optimal for a dodge-tank could make better use for like, Classic Lunatic+ playthroughs. And it's Dorothea and Hanneman for Meteor (and Dorothea's built to be an easy dancer), and Hilda and Manuella for Bolting, with DLC adding Anna to the former and Constance to the later; I think Hanneman, Manuella, and Anna are considered "faculty" as far as the dancer unlock is concerned (and therefor can't get them dancing), so that's just Dorothea, Hilda, and Constance-with-DLC that should be able to do siege-magic dancers -- You accidently fumbled going over it in-vid and mentioned Hanneman for both spells.

[@MythrilZenith]

Yeah I recorded this pretty late at night and was definitely stumbling around in my words.

[@Xertaron.]

14:11 Even if you've never played SoV, merc Gray, archer Tobin and mage Cliff are what the game hints at if you explore the ram village at the start of the game. Faye is the frailest and slowest of the villagers, so cav and peg knight seem dubious on her, and you're already making Kliff a mage, so might as well make her a cleric. But yes, Anew is not a relevant part of her kit, you're not getting her to lvl 14 saint without grinding. Dodge tanking in Three Houses is far from good and certainly not worth over dancing utility. You need to stack multiple +avoid skills, some of which require very high proficiencies, and in a game with Wrath + Vantage (and their battalion equivalents), super canto, Raging Storm, Impregnable Wall among other things, setting up a dodge tank takes way more effort than it's worth. It's fun, for sure, but not very effective at progressing through the chapter. I do agree that the developer should avoid giving a player options that are straight up detrimental, but all the dancers that have combat benefit from it in some capacity, be it weapon triangle advantage, linked/pair-up attacks or stat bonuses from holding any given weapon. The only exception to that is Phina who is so bad in combat, so below bare minimum of what a combat unit needs, even on normal, that you'd have to go way out of your way to make her a combat unit and because FE3/12 don't have any mechanics that benefit her from having token combat - either because of lack of weapon triangle in FE3 or generally low avoid in FE12 - I can see the argument that she would be better off without token combat.

[@MythrilZenith]

@@Xertaron. My personal take is that stats shouldn't matter on a unit who's never seeing combat anyway [hence stuff like boosting evasion or defense is kind of a moot point as if your dancer is getting attacked you probably already messed up], but if the game does provide something proactive for your dancer to do whilst also dancing, like attack stance in Fates, then it can be a positive. Just my own two cents at the end of the day, though.

[@Xertaron.]

@@MythrilZenith ​It doesn't matter for an experienced player who knows what they're doing, but for a new player, any mistake allowance goes a long way, so extra survivability on units that otherwise have next to none is very much relevant. It's like you've mentioned - we take all the information for granted when evaluating units, but a new player won't know most of that. On lunatic/maddening/whatever the highest difficulty is, that extra defense/avoid won't make a dent, but most people don't play on the highest difficulty and if their dancer survives thanks to that bonus, then it is a worthwhile inclusion. The designer has to consider all kinds of players, not just the most hardcore ones.

[@MythrilZenith]

@@Xertaron. Very fair. It's a hard balancing point to me, though, finding a good point where you're both encouraging players down certain routes whilst also being forgiving for their mistakes. I realize I'm blending together my thoughts and probably not putting them right, but it's in considering the multiple types of players that makes this difficult. By giving combat capability to a unit, some subsection of players will directly prefer to use them FOR combat. In that respect, it becomes more clear to that sort of player when you take combat away from a unit that this unit is primarily designed for a different job. By putting a defensive tool on a vulnerable unit like a dancer, you may be providing the player a buffer for mistakes. But you may also be leading them astray in a situation where, for instance, having that defensive tool on a more combat-focused unit would be a bigger net positive. This being in the case of stuff like the Guard Naginata or Shield Sword, or a stat booster. Ultimately it's the player's choice on where to use these items, but in some respects it should be the developer's job to not directly tee up traps for their players, right? Putting a dracoshield in the starting inventory of a dancer leads some players to think that it should be used on that dancer, even if it's not a meaningful mathematical difference at all. I know I"m probably arguing with points you're not making, but that's part of the difficulty with addressing things like this, and thus you can see why I decided this thought process wasn't fit to make it into the Unit Design 101 video - it's both flawed at some level of conception AND too complicated to simply explain without wordy looping in other examples.

[@Xertaron.]

@@MythrilZenith I can see what you mean. There are people insane enough to train Amelia or Wendy, even though it's the equivalent of digging a hole with a spoon, and some would consider doing the same with Phina or Olivia, cause "a unit this weak must be a growth unit, right?". But that problem can easily be solved by properly tutorializing the player and showing them how useful dancing is. For example, putting a village 2 turns away with a brigand right next to it, so it can only be reached by utilizing dancing. This gives the player a practical example and encourages them to follow it up with their ideas. Instead of "here's the dancer, here's how dancing works, bye" approach all FE games do. Assuming the defensive tools aren't in abundance, sure. Guard Naginata is a C rank weapon and Azura starts with E so she's far, far away from being able to use it. Stat boosters is a completely separate issue, same as with dancing, the game gives them to you, but rarely encourages you to use them and a lot of players end up hoarding them. Sure, IF they put a dracoshield in dancer's inventory that would give the wrong idea, but they don't do that for this exact reason. It's more that the issues you brought up aren't directly related to dancers, but are overall design flaws in systems that are often overlooked. I'm on the second playthrough of Three Houses right now, and I don't remember the game ever explaining what dancing even does, let alone showing it in action. Not to mention, it shoves it next to a class no one is going to use for the rest of the playthrough so at first I thought the game bugged out and didn't give me the class and, honest to god, until writing this I completely forgot I had a dancer for 2 chapters now. And considering most people started with Three Houses, from that perspective, I can see the concern for someone being under the impression that dancers are another combat unit with extra utility.

[@flintlocke1344]

29:25 Oh no you’re good, you don’t need to distinguish between “the optimizer” and “optimal play.”

[@MythrilZenith]

@@flintlocke1344 Stream of consciousness rambling is a heck of a drug