Oil or Fat, Which One is Best for Your Bread? | The Science of Solid Fats and Oils in Bread Dough

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@KnotQwyte 3 ай бұрын

I've been meaning to thank you for all your videos that you have made on the science behind bread ingredients, on the tangzhong/yudane methods and how you've incorporated them in different breads in various videos and on your reasonings behind using preferments. These have helped me to somewhat through minor experimentations and a few Google searches come up with my own optimal lean bread recipe that is still a work in progress but I'm happy with. I'm not yet familiar with bread (a budding baker in my mother's eyes) @ 21 (yay for my 20s🎉) so doing research almost killed my passion because it was too much information that served little use for a person who didn't even know if they bulk fermented and proofed correctly 😂. So having your videos as a basis of understanding and supplementing with a few other KZbinrs is a really wonderful aid to my journey and I've only sung your praises as things work out for me. I'd at some point wish to have discussions and conduct scientific research on bread alongside you however for now I pray for you to continue to make these videos when and where possible. That though your earlier videos were wonderful, your shift to bread is a blessing to me and for that I thank you sincerely from the bottom of my heart ❤️. Keep up the good work and all the best in these trying times, best wishes to friends and family for having an amazing daughter such as yourself too. Sorry for the long message 😅 force of habit at this point.

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for your very kind comment! Glad you're enjoying the channel, and we hope you continue to bake with us :)

@johndriscoll7932 Ай бұрын

Hi Novita, Thanks for your wonderful tutorials. I watched your video and decided to change the oil in the dough from canola oil to coconut oil. The result was an incredibly long ferment time. to find the problem, I set up an experiment with a standard white dough mix. 70% hydration, 20% leaven, 2% salt and 2.6% coconut oil. Three glass jars had the following mix: 1) flour, water, leaven. 2) flour water leaven and salt. 3) flour, water, leaven, salt and coconut oil. All were mixed well and left to ferment in a temperature of 21 C Time to double in size was as follows: 1) flour, water, leaven = 6 hours. 2) flour, water, leaven, salt = 8 hours. 3) flour, water, leaven, salt and coconut oil = 30 hours. The problem clearly is the coconut oil which was Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil. It seems the oil inhibited the yeast almost entirely from fermenting. The results show what would be expected for doubling in size with jars 1 & 2. Can you explain why such a result with jar 3. It is not what would be expected with the theory of an oil inclusion.

@NovitaListyani Ай бұрын

Hmm, without knowing the exact specifics of the entire experiment, I can only guess at what's going on. 1, there could be something in that specific coconut oil that is interfering with yeast growth. In this case, it might be a good idea to try a different coconut oil. 2. It might not be the yeast that is affected but rather, the gluten network. So the dough isn't rising because the gluten isn't capable of retaining the gas. This could be due to multiple things, notably, proteolytic activity from the sourdough could interfere with the gluten. Sourdough starters can also be quite diverse, so that could have some influence on this. It's very interesting to know though, thank you for the comment!

@johndriscoll7932 Ай бұрын

@@NovitaListyani Thanks for your comment. Further experiment I noted I can restart fermentation of a stagnant dough by increasing the temperature to 33 C for 1 hour then return to 21C and fermentation continues at a normal rate. My theory is when the oil is in a solidified state it inhibits fermentation, raising the temperature makes the oil liquid. I also noted a lower percentage of oil does not affect fermentation as much as a higher percentage.

@cherrylimesatan 3 ай бұрын

Wow my first time to be first! I love your channel and when i am older I want to open a bakery

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment, love to hear that!

@hp377 3 ай бұрын

amazing coverage on this topic. One of the best channels for bread on this platform in my opinion 😁

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

Thank you, glad you think so!

@elizachan6114 Ай бұрын

Very informational! I’ve learnt a lot ❤❤

@LiefLayer 3 ай бұрын

I already knew a lot about fats because when I wanted to perfect the panettone I had to study a lot (having to incorporate 25% butter + 30% egg yolks + other ingredients that still prevent the formation of gluten even if they are not fats such as 36% sugar and 48% milk almost without water except that contained in the starter) the reason was to avoid making a brioche dough but still incorporate everything (I think that's the reason why the incorporation is divided in "two dough", first dough incorporate part of the fats and after a first bulk fermentation using the first dough as a starting point the second dough start), but it was still an interesting video. One of the most important things when incorporating fats is the temperature, I usually start with cold ingredients from the fridge except for the butter which I incorporate at the end and which will obviously raise the temperature (which in any case I try to keep below 28°C). What I still didn't know was that it was better to incorporate butter in solid form and why oil was not a replacement for butter (I knew it by experience baking but I didn't know the reason behind it). I still use olive oil a lot for many bread recipes like focaccia (where the flavour of the extra virgin olive oil is much more important than the softness of the final product (still it's not like focaccia is hard bread... and crunchy exterior is irresistible)). And I still love to use lard for piadine (where it prevents the formation of gluten much better than oil, creating a crumbly piadina with a unique flavour). I tried to use lard in bread dough and it's not bad but the flavor of the lard is lost a little in the bread mass (much more than the butter and oil). PS. As a suggestion I would love to know the science behind open/closed crumb structure... I still struggle to get the crumb I want, I usually just give up and get what I get (sometimes open when I want a closed crumb sometimes the other way around). I watched several videos and techniques to control the crumb structure, but nobody is really talking about the science behind it and between contradictory information and particular conditions I ultimately never understood how to really control the internal structure of the bread. For example sometimes I get a closed crumb even in a ciabatta with 90% hydration, sometimes I get an open crumb even in a milk bread. It's still good bread but I would like to get more control over it and I don't really know how.

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the comment! On crumb structure, the openness of the crumb depends a lot on how much the dough is punched down/degassed after initial mixing. This is why sandwich bread and shokupan which have very uniform crumbs are generally degassed well, while breads with open crumbs like artisan loafs are typically handled far more gently.

@therukshuka3616 3 ай бұрын

Good topic, have been thinking about this a lot recently.. thank you

@o0Zuel0o 3 ай бұрын

Excellent review of fats in bread making, Thanks!

@jedconsunji2595 3 ай бұрын

Very informative love this video...thank you for the narrative. Hobbyist baker.

@chopsddy3 3 ай бұрын

Enlightening! BTW The black on black background was awesome.👍

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment, glad you enjoyed it!

@ws.hicks0214 3 ай бұрын

This is very interesting because in my SEA kitchen, reaching for the sunflower oil sitting in a bottle on top of my counter and pouring it into my mixing bowl is always easier than reaching for butter that is not always in my fridge, and then having to dirty a knife to portion it out and carefully knead it in. Now there’s more consideration to be had 🤔

@akosuapiesie3385 3 ай бұрын

Always helping us to learn something. Thanks much ❤❤❤

@kevinu.k.7042 Ай бұрын

As always, I think it is great that you are putting this material out. (edited out a misunderstanding) Unsaturated fats weaken the lipid structure of the vacuoles / bubbles making them less able to trap CO2. This is another reason why unsaturated fats are prone to give denser breads. It would have been great if you had why French bread, with no fat, manages to form good vacuoles / bubbles and why the retains CO2 well without the addition of fat. Baguettes, Boules, Bâtards etc never have fat added. It's brilliant you covered Trans Fats. They are seriously a no no in food. I see that some vegetable shortening companies now have '0% Trans Fats' on their labels. Thanks for covering this. 👍

@NovitaListyani Ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment! You might have misunderstood what I said. I said that yeast cannot make bubbles by themselves, they require nucleation sites created by air incorporated into the dough. These nucleation spots are what get filled up with carbon dioxide produced by the yeast. You are right to say that the yeast doesn't exactly "need" this incorporated air to survive but without nucleation sites created by the air, the yeast will not be able to create bubbles inside the dough, it would go against the laws of physics! So essentially, the carbon dioxide that they produce needs a place to go into, aka the nucleation sites.

@kevinu.k.7042 Ай бұрын

@@NovitaListyani My apologies - I shall edit that out. Thanks for the video though. I do get quite a bit from your tech. videos. Be well.

@anna9072 3 ай бұрын

I generally use butter in bread, and not only in the bread, but for greasing the pans and bowls. I find that oils tend to absorb into the bread, rather than maintaining a non-stick layer between the bread and the utensil. But I never really knew the chemistry involved, I just go on experience.

@unneomexaenlacocina9380 2 ай бұрын

Hi there seraphine , i'll love to see your approach on wheat starch substitutes for dim sum recipes. Greetings from México and great content as always

@ItchyCinderBlock 2 ай бұрын

Great video! I’m making Peter Reinhardt’s 100% whole wheat sandwich bread with fresh milled flour. It used about 3% fat, and 8.5% honey. Would you think at this level the oil vs butter would matter much, and if so, is his instruction to use melted butter instead of solid during mixing sound?

@NovitaListyani 2 ай бұрын

According to most of the research, solid fat/solid butter is better than liquid oils/melted butter at basically any level. However, given that the melted butter can re-solidify, that could lead to a mix of effects, and with that said, using oil doesn't necessarily lead to a bad bread, just that solid fat will probably lead to more volume and stability, happy baking!

@AA-xk6mi 3 ай бұрын

Hello, Thank you for this informative video:) Do you also have a video on how to make 100% whole wheat bread and how to change the hydration levels if one uses 100% whole wheat bread flour? Thank You

@DirtyDoughnut 3 ай бұрын

tangzhong/yudane bagel recipe video coming possible👀

@MrJojo442 3 ай бұрын

I have baking challah using oil, do you think that i can use butter in place of oil? Also 1/2 cup of oil would equal how much butter? Thank you!!

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

You would likely need a bit more butter to get the same tenderizing effect, but the exact flavor might end up different. It might require some trial and error to get the best recipe, happy baking!

@MrJojo442 3 ай бұрын

@@NovitaListyani Thank you !

@sjc9832 3 ай бұрын

Interesting. I make a high-fat sandwich bread and found butter gave it a slightly strange taste (even using grass-fed butter that is delicious in other applications). I switched to olive oil which improved the taste without a noticeable effect on the bread quality

@KF1 2 ай бұрын

So that's why my first attempt at rough puff pastry turned out poorly when I overheated it by overkneading. Live and learn, what do you know.

@browserZ24 3 ай бұрын

Do you have a video that talks about the protein content in doughs? Or in flours? And the science behind it?!? Definitely would love to see that if you can!!!! 😊😊😊😊😊

@IKKAIWINS 3 ай бұрын

Yesss, I second this

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

We do have the information scattered throughout our videos, we might make a specific video on it later though!

@browserZ24 3 ай бұрын

@@NovitaListyani super exciting!!!!

@radhakrishnansubramaniam3716 16 күн бұрын

Such an important topic ! I too endorse this motion. Please do a video as soon as possible. Keep up the good work Seraphine !

@qdwang-main 2 ай бұрын

I don’t know if it’s possible for you to create a table to rank the volume affected by the ingredients added. Like solid fat: +5, oil: +3, garlic powder: -3…etc

@jamjokes3800 3 ай бұрын

👍

@IKKAIWINS 3 ай бұрын

How would you recommend to make focaccia? Would you introduce butter instead? I've felt like my focaccia doesn't taste as good as when I get it from somewhere else. Could also have been the olive oil I used but not sure.. Especially the texture and taste of the crumb I disliked in my own.

@Mateus.007 3 ай бұрын

I thing butter makes bread very soft, not exactly what you expect from focaccia,

@NovitaListyani 3 ай бұрын

The way the olive oil is added to the focaccia is actually quite minimally disruptive of the dough structure, because much of it is added at the end to essentially "fry" the dough, so I'm not sure butter is truly needed to replace the oil. Additionally, the taste of olive oil is just a part of focaccia, so it's very difficult to replace. I would look more into the fermentation time, and other ingredients to improve the texture and taste.