Oil Starvation Solution for BRZ & GR86 - [Data Backed Analysis & Discussion]

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

Thank you @Driver's Paddock for hosting this discussion with us. We will be releasing more information on the product and detailed timelines as we sort out production, sales and distribution. Feel free to tag us with any questions or comments. If you have 3D scans or models of aftermarket headers, please send them our way and we will check fitment with the pan. Thank you!!

[@rjhick1]

I wish you guys would do this deep dive with finding a cooling solution with the FL5 CTR lol 😅

[@GAD30R]

How will we know when your oil pan will be available and where? This appears to be a helpful add…Thanks

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@GAD30R we will be making an announcement in the near future. We will definitely be making many posts in the community with details.

[@phunkybuddhamike]

Hi, very interested in your pan! I'm considering a FA24 block swap to replace my spun bearing FA20 in my 2017, also with the HKS GT3 turbo kit. Any idea if there would be fitment issues? I'll try to get a scan of the manifold and downpipe if that helps. Also, are you at SEMA this week?

[@johnflurkey6185]

Very 0:23 informative video as this seems to reinforce my research on oil starvation and looks like the best solution. I recently purchased a base gr86 with performance package and not satisfied with solutions like baffle plates, oil coolers, and overfilling of oil beyond normal capacity. I came to the conclusion that a oversized oil pan would be the best approach. However I have not yet fou 0:23 nd an oversized pan to fit within dimensions of stock components like headers and require aftermarket headers or require removal of heat shields. I ended up canceling/rescheduling my complimentary track date till I become more comfortable this issue. Everything looks good except for a loss of warranty by Toyota that I assumed would be the case. It is unfortunate that Toyota/Subaru has not come up with a solution in the form of a recall. Perhaps they are relying on aftermarket efforts since they are no longer continuing to manufacture this vehicle. Their verbiage for warranty is based on a case by case evaluation, I do not want to get to the point of engine failure to test it.

[@MegaNardman]

Great work fellas. Way to do the testing & engineering that Subaru and Toyota didn't bother doing. I hope your product is a massive success!

[@mmc2k9999]

Both subaru and toyota have done the testing engineering, but only for their race cars.

[@GC-kp7lo]

Stumbled on this video. Nice job. Same issues apply to many, many cars on the track. Take a look at the innovative sump and aos solutions that have been developed for the Porsche 996,997,986,987. Keep pushing guys. Love to see the innovation regardless of the brand.

[@colinbowman8816]

$$$$ and data is a bit harder to come by... might work perfectly though.

[@GC-kp7lo]

@colinbowman8816 I hear you. Speed and durability costs money regardless of the car brand. Cross idea generation can help us all with more solutions and hopefully some cost savings.

[@warrenlucier5796]

Porsche cured the problem for the 2nd gen 987 & 997 with a clean sheet new engine design (MA1/9A1) that addressed all the shortcomings beyond the oiling problem with the M96 & M97 engine series. The cure for the FA20 & 24 engine series is a proper sump design to control the oil supply that works with factory header and one with a header & sump designed together as a package. I own a 2nd gen Cayman S, as I could see the problems in the design of the previous engine, and it was going to need much more than a new oil sump.

[@johnlinrehab]

Is no one talking about the 1:36 at Mosport he just put down? 🤣 that’s absolutely insane

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

It's why I got Jason to drive my car. No one can say this car wasn't driven hard during oil pan testing. It's as good of a lap as we will get on sticky tires.

[@ElisaandZixi]

It’s definitely fast, also 8 years ago there was a 120 whp na miata did a 1.38 on nt01, that’s even more insane 😂

[@shift__robinson]

Thank you for sharing this and contributing to a solution for the FA community! Excited to see this oil pan go into production 👏🏽

[@cliterally1791]

omg you guys solved it, and without any major mods

[@gr_navarrete]

Thanks for the work, Kelvin! The data looks very good, and it is excellent news that it is compatible with OEM heat shields. In the GR86 group of Spain we are talking about this video, and I'm sure many of us will be interested haha

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

Team effort with lots of behind the scenes. Let us know how much interest there is! We haven't thought much about EU distribution but if we need to put it on the roadmap, we can try and work out shipping/logistics for everyone across the pond 👍

[@LiquidTurbo]

What group is this?

[@davidgranados6708]

Qué grupo es?

[@blackwolfactual1539]

Thats amazing what you guys have done with all of your hard work! I am eagerly waiting for release to purchase one! The whole reason I got a GR86 was to enjoy the drive, but feel lile i cant due to the fear of the oil starvation issue. I cant wait to enjoy my car with peace of mind. Right now i am even afraid to use my NASA HPDE because of the fear of my engine blowing during the event.

[@ruturaj47]

I have done 12 track days on mine, many have done much more. Get the pan when it's a available but don't let it stop you from enjoying it.

[@7bobsan]

Very excited to hear there is a working solution! Gj on the testing setup (grippy setup). Cannot wait to prepare the BRZ for season ''25! Greetings from Europe

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@7bobsan we are glad to see that the European folks are watching! What tracks in Europe has been known to cause problems with this platform?

[@7bobsan]

@@FormulaDeltaOG In eastern europe we are very shy from a racing curcuits perspective. One example where the BRZ will have problems is Serres Racing Circuit in Greece since it's a track with clockwise direction and mostly right turns.

[@sikrip]

@@7bobsan I have been in Serres Racing Circuit twice. Even with a completely stock car I had to overfill and short shift in order to avoid pressure drops.

[@MachMotorsport]

Great analysis and significant improvements with the Formula Delta configuration!

[@jeffgrauer38]

Great work guys. As an auto engineer myself, I appreciate the time and effort it takes to properly understand an issue. Everything is built to a tight budget in the OEM world, but it would be awesome if you could get Toyota to add your pan to their TRD catalog or install the pan on a special edition so they can include it on the GR Cup cars. It would really help their reputation around this engine.

[@joby602]

How much extra would this cost Toyota per unit? It should be stock on every model if it works as well as the video shows.

[@jeffgrauer38]

@@joby602 Unfortunately, it's never that easy. There are a hundred factors that go into OE parts. Getting it into the TRD catalog and maybe into a special edition would take a lot of effort, let alone across the board.

[@AlfredYap]

Thank you, highly appreciate this solution that retain heat shield and pretty much retain stock configuration of header too. looking forward for final product.

[@dblm7128]

Low 1.36 at CTMP Mosport is a crazy fast time with that configuration! 👏👏

[@jeremylawrenceamadehilledw6515]

Great work guys. I'll buy one as soon as you get it to market. Or if you're doing a group buy, I'm in.

[@ehiracheta]

Just got a GR86....so I'll be buying one for sure! If they decide to do a group buy I'll be jumping in.

[@tone3560]

You tracking your car on the regular?

[@ehiracheta]

@@tone3560 I just got it. Still in break in.

[@ehiracheta]

@@tone3560 I have about 30 autox and at least 20 HPDEs completed in other cars. This car is still in break in.

[@tone3560]

@@ehiracheta oh okay. I was going to say if you rarely track and only public road spirited drive then I wouldn't worry about oil pressure drop. They have proven on the street the oil drop is negligible to even worry about. its a track only issue.

[@wolvesbrigade1700]

Fascinating to see such a quick and good turn around I’m curious to see the designs and features as Verus is also testing their pan as well. See the differences and which is better for certain setup would be cool. Also interesting to see how temperature and so on are affecting the values. Def wanna see what slicks or aero do.

[@bigboss1372]

great work and research! i’m most definitely interested in joining a group buy 👍

[@VinRZ]

Imma piggy back on the M1 FS 0w40 oil. A few things are worth to mention from my personal experience. 1. This mobile 1 oil is loosely what NA GR cup cars running. So this OTS oil is proven to be acceptable for a racing environment. 2. I personally did multiple oil analysis on this oil. The samples ranged from 1 track day to 3 track days to 4000 miles driving. They were all relatively within the same numbers as in wear rate. 3. It is a relatively thinner 40 weight oil. Its virgin viscosity starts at 14cSt @100C, but after a few "heat cyles". This oil will shear down to 11cSt @100C, sometimes high 10cSt @100C. 30 weight's range of cSt @100C should be between 9.3 -

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

That’s fair, our temperatures varies quite a bit more between summer and winter, this car doesn’t see much of the colder temperatures, but having an oil cooler on this car in the winter here in Canada doesn’t really make sense. Hence why the comment.

[@michaeltarlowski9316]

Can confirm the GR Cup Cars in Australia run M1 5w-30, so....I dunno.

[@VinRZ]

​@@michaeltarlowski9316us cup cars run 40 weight

[@sikrip]

Data look good. Let's see some pictures of the product soon!

[@sikrip]

Also, this 1'36"xxx lap is impressive!

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Soon, we are very concerned about people knocking off our design as soon as they see how we got all that extra volume.

[@practicaldriver]

hell yeah can't wait to get this

[@J.R.F.23]

Great work❕ Thank you ❕😊

[@lamesamelame]

Great job 👍

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Thanks! Took a lot of time to produce this!

[@artblackwood7936]

Very cool. Thanks.

[@bluemoonentertainment1720]

Subarruuu Hire these guys immediately 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@thejasoncao]

Can’t wait for more info on this… any details on the actual capacity increase?

[@HewlettPackardSteam]

Count me in, I’m super interested to buy

[@amcezm0n3y47]

I've been just doing a .7 qt overfill using 5w30 oil when I do a track day on stock pan. That significantly reduces pressure drops.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

What lateral G's are you pulling on what tires? Over filling alone on oem pan won't help enough.

[@Wesley-ui3dw]

That’s exactly what I have been waiting for. Pls keep us posted about the group buy. I assume this should fit the HKS header ?

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Do you know if the HKS header penetrates into the oem heat shield? If so, it won't work.

[@valkator]

Heard some people have run a cooler thermostat which surprisingly works well with the oil cooling.

[@JensonWongKS]

What are your thoughts about the recommendation of oil viscosity? 0W-20 still?

[@MrDadoo19]

Hi, thanks for the content. How do you explain that comparing the best laps done with stock setup (A) and the alignment + stock tyres (D) you’ve been faster with the stock one? Was the track in the same conditions? Nice weather/temperature? Thanks!!

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@MrDadoo19 the track was in similar conditions, not exactly the same because it happened on different days, the alignment and stock tires (E) lap had just a bit of traffic on the straights, but it did not impact car speed on right hand turns

[@ruturaj47]

On unrelated note, do you plan to review 2025 GR86/BRZ? I am interested in hearing about steering and throttle mapping changes.

[@mojojoji5493]

Are they gonna fix this oil pan dosing problem? (Not a major issue but for long track racing it’s a big problem)

[@dagreat201]

What viscosity oil was being ran on the test car that got no wear? OW20? 5W30?

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

5W-30 has been put into the car ever since it’s first track day

[@Buzz944]

@@FormulaDeltaOGwhich oil brand?

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@Buzz944 Motul X-CESS 5W-30

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@Buzz944 we used Moutl X-Cess and X-Clean EFE 5W-30

[@ioannisioannou7518]

Awesome stuff. Assuming your prototype pan & baffle is designed primarily for stock headers setup. Running UEL catted headers by JDL. I know the one designed by Verus is prob not going to fit and not interested in returning to stock headers... Any chance that your pan could be an option and/or whether there's willingness on your part to scan the UEL catted headers in developing a suitable pan which fits? Regardless, subscribed in your formula delta site and looking forward to more details.

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

We have been searching for a JDL UEL catted headers locally so we can scan it, however we haven’t been able to find one yet. We did however able to find a JDL UEL No Cat Headers and they do fit with our oil pan.

[@ioannisioannou7518]

hoping you get a chance to scan catted version and provide update. My guess is it won’t clear, the design is quite different with lengthier-side banks being reversed and a more aggressive bent toward the pan location compared to non-catted. That said since these clear the stock pan I’m still curious and only a scan will tell…

[@CrazyCat229]

Now I'm interested in specs for a good AIR/OIL cooler and how to cool the coolant in the radiator better. I was hoping to stay in the "STOCK" for the stock racing classes so I guess I need to do more research. I would hope they allow better cooling for oil and coolant. I know they don't allow coilovers and some other suspension items so I'm not sure if I can even do a "track" alignment or change tire width and size. It sucks because a lot of the older cars in the class are allowed more mods.

[@anochieugochuku7176]

Great discussion!! In the paper displayed at 14:55, it's stated that the aeration rates and oil pressure drop were proportional. I'm unclear what that proportion is though. If it's 3:1 (3 points of aeration for each psi of pressure drop), then that would imply that a 10psi drop would create the 30% aeration that causes the problem. Is there any information about what the proportion is? It's seems as though the assumption is 1:1. What does this mean for time spent in the +30% aeration state if the proportion is other than 1:1?

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@anochieugochuku7176 hey there, the paper we referenced used aeration rate (introducing air into an oil system) to simulate pressure drop. The mention of the aeration rate being roughly 1:1 proportional pressure drop are both measured as a percentage. Meaning that a 1% aeration rate is roughly equivalent to a 1% pressure drop. I would like to mention that this paper is a bit on the older end (published in 1993), the theory still holds true, but it is case by case dependent.

[@valkator]

Would be cool if the new oil pan has some kind of plug that is directly below the pick up tube opening so you can remove theh plug and be able to clean out the RTV from the strainer without removing the pan.

[@Stuka87]

In theory, you should only ever need to do that once. RTV breaks off during break-in, and then there really isn't any other RTV that can come loose.

[@LoveLikeaHurricane]

So with this new oil pan, how much more capacity does it add to oem

[@grippgoat]

Can you share how much of a vilume increase the new pan is?

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Not yet, soon enough. Don't want to reveal our secret to any competition just yet.

[@Jer-h6c]

Is it possible to integrate a mounting template to protect the mounting surfaces? Great ideas, thanks for sharing your ideas to the community, would be interested in a group buy..

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

@@Jer-h6c can you clarify a bit what you mean by the mounting template? I am not sure if I understood that part?

[@Jer-h6c]

@@FormulaDeltaOG Was thinking if both surfaces are aluminum, to preserve the mounting surfaces, could we have something sandwiched (like a metal gasket, (any gasket) )? removing the oil pan seems like a big ordeal...

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

@@Jer-h6c the OEM design was to use RTV to seal between the pan and the upper oil pan. Adding anything in between would lower the pan and thus add a dead space below the pickup which is oil you might never pick up. This also pushes the pan beyond the skid plate. No win there.

[@Jer-h6c]

@@KevinWong_BRZ thank you, did not think of the "dead space" but was thinking of the amount of effort to pull the pan out. We are excited for your solutions & are rooting for you!👍

[@lymanwong6889]

Count me in hit the group buy too

[@jonatkinson108]

This seems more promising than the verus pan due to not having to modify the heat shield. Curious as to what the capacity is.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Stay tuned! When we release for purchase we will provide way more details. Currently afraid that if we do announce details before offering for sale, people will be able to knock off our design.

[@julianj5532]

Could you tell me on exactly what page of the user manual (BRZ) it says 5w30 is allowed? I'm not doubting yall, I just think it will be nice to know incase of worst case scenario where I have to deal with the dealership.

[@yoo_bob2068]

Is this the same as versus prototype oilpan? Also believe with versus testing it happens on both left and right depended on the G held in the turn.

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

The oil pan is an original design that we designed, prototyped and tested.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Completely independent design and not associated with Verus whatsoever.

[@brianp1030]

Nice job...I would love to see similar data of your competitor's products with baffles to confirm that baffling in itself is not enough. This would further differentiate your product imo.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Our pan DOES have baffles. We have extra volume and effective baffling.

[@brianp1030]

@@KevinWong_BRZ my point is your competitors have baffles as well, but no additional volume. If the additional volume that your product has is what makes it effective....then by testing your competitors product you can prove your design is "better". I would also like to see oil temps controlled as temps and viscosity of oil is probably a critical variable.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

​​@brianp1030I would not trust my engine with anyone else's product. Unless they are willing to put up front the funds to source and put in a new engine should it cause damage. I already run the risk of blowing an engine with this testing but I trust @formuladelta with the design. Bear in mind, @900brz already sacrificed one engine due to a pan test so I'm not going to risk it unless I trust it. Also, it makes no sense to showcase a competitors product with the aforementioned risk as we've proven that we've reduced the problem occurance by almost 98%. We have a solution that's backed by data.

[@garagecedric]

Didnt 900brz try first with only baffles, which didn't do much difference

[@brianp1030]

@@garagecedric thanks found those videos and that addresses some of the questions I had.

[@TheDamoadius]

Please check the sump gasket silicone being WAY overdone and the oil intake filter in the sump being filled with excess fallen off into the sump. Are they still over doing the silicone and it's dislodging and clogging the intake filter?

[@nickbee123456]

Here’s a question. What about a traditional gasket for the new oil pan so RTV is not needed for the install?

[@martindepunkt3770]

Will buy one for sure, if it fits with stock heat shield. Thats a big + compared to the Verus Prototype. 😎👌

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

@@martindepunkt3770 this is NOT the Verus unit. This is the Formula Delta pan.

[@martindepunkt3770]

@@KevinWong_BRZ Yes I know, did clarify my comment. The Formula Delta got a benefit compared to the Verus if you dont need to hack the header heatshield 👍

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

@@martindepunkt3770 apologies, misunderstood you!

[@johnmcphail6833]

as long as its under $1000 cdn ill be jumping on the group buy without a second thought

[@hossak88]

I guess just wait for counter clockwise days at Limerock...

[@Shtonada]

Let me know when I can order one 😎

[@MiscellaneousMcC]

Will this fit on the 2024 brz TS? My roommate has one (he actually teaches at CTPM) and has been talking about solving the oil issue for a while. We’ve looked at baffles, but this would be ideal.

[@DriversPaddock]

Yes it will! 2024 TS oil pan has no changes vs the non TS

[@LoveLikeaHurricane]

Just thought it’s interesting they put GLoc 16 on front and rear. Normally when you email them or ask the community they give you staggered brake pads front and rear

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

Ironically, I was suggested that by GLoc tho.

[@LoveLikeaHurricane]

@@KevinWong_BRZ strange, when i try and email them lately, and even back in 2020 they have either late or no response. Thinking about going back to Carbotech myself, simply because of communication.

[@GrumpyMonkey_]

Does the New WRX have the same issue? Seeing as how it has the same engine, but more oil capacity

[@matthewwain9958]

First question... is it compatible with the VB WRX ?

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

We do not believe it is compatible, however if there’s enough interest from the WRX community, we can look into designing a pan for that specific application

[@Skubi1111]

Shouldn't you guys mention oil used in 16:00 mark when discussing different setups ?

[@FormulaDeltaOG]

We may have missed this, but we are running 5W-30 for all the data that is presented

[@Skubi1111]

@@FormulaDeltaOG thanks for the clarification ✌️

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

The oil has been the same brand and weight... Motul Excess 5W30

[@777MAV]

Maybe I missed it, but why even nirmal EOP was lower on base configuration?

[@777MAV]

Ok, It's probably due to difference oil temperature...

[@yipchitaywonga]

Will that fit on the fa20?

[@DriversPaddock]

I believe that’s their next project! Follow Formula delta on Instagram or KZbin for more updates and information.

[@yipchitaywonga]

@@DriversPaddock Will do, thank you!

[@Slowcarfastbeans]

Lord Farquhar said to drain the swump.

[@Dmochkin]

Oy vey

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

@@Dmochkin no PIPs for you!

[@AKK5I]

Solution... Buy a properly engineered car like a GR Yaris, BMW, Porsche, least of all, an MX5 - instead of fixing this poser "track car" cobbled from a recycled Impreza chassis/drivetrain and the Subaru parts bin... and then having to spend YOUR own money having to fix an engineering flaw that occurs in high performance that Toyota/Subaru advertised for, but says isn't covered by warranty.

[@iangeorge6409]

What about the GR's clutchpack issue?

[@amcezm0n3y47]

I've owned all the car brands you've listed. All have their flaws and oiling issues under high Gs

[@Wesley-ui3dw]

You obviously don’t understand why people love this car. Or maybe you don’t even own this car.

[@brassdg]

You talk about recycled parts bin car but include a more expensive and even more heavily recycled parts bin car in the GR Corolla LOL.

[@KevinWong_BRZ]

It's a really good car with a key oversight. I wouldnt call it a poser car.