The TRUTH about the 40k + Amazon series

After the last video I had thoughts on the upcoming 40k Amazon series. So many in fact that this might be the first of many videos on this subject.
The full and unedited version of this is up on Ko-Fi, if you aren’t subscribed I just edited a couple of parts here and there for the KZbin release where I thought the video might be de-monetised.
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[@rossallan3585]

I think you’re overlooking a somewhat botched advertising for Dredd. It wasn’t heavily promoted, nor made clear it was a reboot and not a latter day sequel to the Stallone one. It also somewhat suffered from its rating, being R in the US, and 18 in the UK, inherently limiting its audience at a time when most comic book adaptations were distinctly family friendly.

[@OldenDemon]

I was concerned that I probably oversimplified the Dredd issue

[@Kameth]

If memory serves, Dredd came out at the same time as Battleships, an almighty stinker they pumped tonnes of advertising into in the hopes enough rubes would see it before word of mouth got out. Dredd got sidelined in this. All said, I agree with the concerns about 40K. At it's best is when you're deep in the lore, which is difficult to newcomers to get into. It's for a niche audience, and Amazon will want a general audience.

[@rossallan3585]

@@OldenDemon some of the negative reviews are quite eye opening too. Such as criticising Dredd for being a “shoot first, ask questions never” fascist bully boy. Which….is exactly what Dredd is in-universe.

[@TheFlashman]

Without watching the video... Dredd was shit. I don't know why the online community can't accept this but it was a dull as dish water story, in a grim dull setting, with a repellent villain who (spoiler alert) suffers a grotesque death, with an unlikeable hero. Oh and action sequences were pretty much meh city one and relied on a 3D gimmick. It had no chance of mainstream appeal and was doomed to be a cult classic, much like the comic. No amount of marketing or disassociation from the 90's movie was ever going to save it. It was doomed from the script and has killed any possibility of Dredd making a movie for a generation at least if ever again.

[@rossallan3585]

@@TheFlashman Dredd….isn’t meant to be likeable. At all. He’s there to get the job done and reduce crime. The movie perfectly achieves that, and simultaneously queries and justifies Justice Department’s heavy handed tactics, leaving it to the individual to decide whether Judges have too much power. Akin to Robocop, it works as a big dumb action film, and there’s nothing wrong with leaving it there. But a dig beneath the surface turns up all sorts of surprising subtlety. For instance? Dredd doesn’t go in “all guns blazing”. When shooting peeps, he’s firmly in control, not wasting ammo, and making every shot count. We see him shift his stance on standards when Anderson proves she would be an asset, as it’s her abilities and her abilities alone which see Slo-Mo and Mama removed from the board entirely. She may not have the chops for a Street Judge, but Justice Department still needs her in other ways. Even his tone of voice demonstrates a tightly controlled fury, especially when he places that call.

[@gbirdnonsense1084]

IMO the Eisenhorn/Inquisitor angle seems to make the most sense, as they could build a set of very human characters to view the world from, and include Space Marines as more of an ongoing / lurking threat (with plenty of scary action sequences to reinforce this), never having to stay with them, narriatively speaking. I mean it's rare for inquisitors to walk away unscathed (or breathing) from being sent to snoop around dark angels or space wolves, for example. So theres drama enough in that idea alone, let alone chaos or xenos threats

[@dnte666]

Exactly what I was thinking. I think Olden Demon hasn’t read it yet.

[@criticalcommenter]

Yawn! How boring. Why does everyone seem to want this to fail?

[@kermit8173]

Gaunt's Ghosts. Has a bit of everything.

[@Nightmare704RY]

​@@criticalcommenteryou talking about the comment or the video?

[@FredrickDouglass69]

100%

[@cazboab]

Interpersonal conflict: A Commissar and a Regimental commander who are both too well known for the other to think they can get away with shooting. Fish out of water: Agriworld has to pay it's tithe so a bunch of farmhands get put through basic guard training and thrown into a centuries long stalemate conflict on a deathworld. Space Marines: Henry Cavill has already answered that one "have them be cool from a distance" IE don't make them the main characters.

[@stormrunner4081]

Yeah marines just fall into an awkward gap To strong to get an underdog story out of But to weak to do anything super important

[@cazboab]

@@stormrunner4081 yeah, there's also a really good chance that any marine characters would suffer from the Worf effect and get battered to show how much of a threat the villain is.

[@phil24782]

He also said: In a universe where there is Custodes and Primarchs why would I wanna be an Inquisitor. Amazon will be: Space Marines are the most iconic about the brand. There is no way they will do a second Rings of Power and focus on side characters. They will go for the cross marketing effect to sell Space Marines II and the miniatures and therefore either do a series about Titus or Ventris.

[@mrrodriguezHLP]

Have them be cool from a distance is also a good way to keep the budget down. It also heightens the threat: you only see the Space Marines when the planet is near or past 'good and f'd'.

[@phil24782]

@@mrrodriguezHLP Space Marines would not significantly raise the budget. Not much details on them, no faces to track. In times of Sora this is peanuts to any CGI studio.

[@psi-man]

I laughed out loud at that "It would have a very dark ending" cut to the Blanche skeleton nailed up on the HERETIC sign. Love your stuff man.

[@OldenDemon]

Thanks, Blanche has such an extensive library of work that there is something for all occasions.

[@RipOffProductionsLLC]

​@@OldenDemon the works of Blanche and Goodwin are the foundation of 40K's esthetic and tone. The fact that a lot if it looks like something that should be on the walls or in a book in-universe doesn't hurt(in fact I would be shocked if some of Blanche's rougher sketches of Deamons or Xenos didn't get used as the scribblings in a mad-man's journal or something like that)

[@echorome6260]

Astartes worked so well because the space marines were mute.

[@Sonof_DRN2004]

I mean, we were all imagining them saying the classic lines ‘for the emperor’ and ‘death to the heretics’ and ‘foul heresy’ in our heads so I don’t think that really mattered.

[@Chadthed1ckchamp]

the space marines weren't mute, they just were talking in their in built comms systems, i agree that if we were shown space marines with cavill, it should be silent, and terrifying.

[@criticalcommenter]

And because it had space marines. Nobody was excited to see cultists and baseline guys. I don't get why so many people don't understand this.

[@Chadthed1ckchamp]

@@criticalcommenter actually there were a TON of videos trying to figure out who the space marines were fighting because they were interesting.... also, when Sodaz made the Kreig videos, and there were chaos space marines do you really think anyone WAS NOT excited by badass kreigsman fighting chaos astartes?

[@criticalcommenter]

@@Chadthed1ckchamp and you think the Astartes video would have done as well without marines? Just some normal guys instead? In both your examples the marines were the coolest part still. Having some baseline guys is fine. I just don't think they are enough to generate interest. People will just tune out expecting another boring sci fi flip like the constant failures we have seen recently

[@Maggers42]

That's not a heavy bolter! That's an assault cannon!

[@OldenDemon]

I knew someone would pick me up on that

[@kirinthewanderer5896]

tbh I feel like there's theoretically a shockingly good sit com set in the 40k universe.

[@shoulderpyro]

I shall direct you to a certain commissar

[@Hy93Ri0n]

Dad's army but it's an Imperial Guard regiment having to navigate 1984-esque hijinks could be pretty funny actually

[@DominatorLegend]

A sitcom showcasing the Primarchs and their family dynamics. I can already picture Big E entering the scene and the "enthusiastic clapping" track playing.

[@kirinthewanderer5896]

@@DominatorLegend I was thinking more like "Brooklyn 99 but a black comedy with the arbities"

[@baudsp]

Trazyn and Orikan when they work together...

[@Dram1984]

Bold of you to assume anyone at Amazon has either the ability or desire to make a good television show.

[@dickassley5171]

ability? definitely, just look at the boys and invincible and... uh...

[@whitewall2253]

Amazon's a gacha machine, you never have any idea what you're getting out of it.

[@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475]

@@dickassley5171 Above average doesn't equal good.

[@DaRedGobbo]

​@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475because they aren't average at all? Both shows are pretty good.

[@riblo72]

​@@dickassley5171 Vox Machina

[@PiratePyroFilms]

Here's the solution: make a gotrek and felix series, but just for me

[@YOGI-kb9tg]

Gotrek and Felix would be great.

[@rossallan3585]

Anyways, as for 40K being unadaptable? I disagree. But I will concede it’s a tricky adaptation. In a setting where the special forces are post human ubermensch armed with weapons of terror, you’re going to hit any certification board’s limit on gore pretty quickly. After all, Bolters and Chainswords don’t exactly do flesh wounds, and are favoured precisely because of that. Yet leading with Marines would be a mistake, because they’re not the most interesting thing about 40K by a long shot. Instead, go macro. Zoom right in. Let us follow a newly adopted Inquisitorial Acolyte, recruited like Zemelda in the Cain novels from among the plebs, by simple expedient of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They then act as the audience proxy. The mere human finding out the terrors of the night aren’t only real, but more numerous than you could ever conceive. Keep piercing the veil, introducing ever harsher methods used to ultimately protect humanity from threats, including itself. Be brave. Be bold. Sure give our proxy plot armour, but have friends and colleagues killed and replaced throughout, show us how they themselves eventually replace their Inquisitorial Master/Mistress in due course, having become a necessarily cold and heartless killer.

[@OldenDemon]

I think this is the only way to go to meet in the middle of the venn diagram, although as you say its going to be tricky

[@kharnifex]

Hopefully Fatcavill will have some decent unignored input

[@destructivepanda5226]

Definitely should start with some sort of interrogator or for possibly more exploration of Xenos and cultures you can have a Rogue Trader be the focus

[@ChernobylKid]

zooming in was my thought too its possible to start "small" in a rich world with a character that is also small in comparison to the lore and universe

[@madsvogt-nielsen1204]

I think this is exactly the way to go. You then have the "human factor" you can even have internal conflict, with different branches of inqusitors (radical vs. puratist). And you can have the Space Marine show up iat some point for a high action scene, and then leave again. But, alass, I think OldenDemon is right in his prediction that Cavill will want to play a space marine. And so he has to be the focus. He is after all an actor and player drawn to "the strong man" (Superman, Geralt and Custodes being his army of choice).

[@joeflitton8034]

I would love to see a rogue trader based series, a rag tag band of misfits exploring an interesting but dangerous universe. Or maybe I just want another season of Firefly.

[@Nightmare704RY]

You just want another season of firefly, rouge trader doesn't look anything like you described.

[@Kopie0830]

Interesting. I'm not sure how the story would go, since all of the secrets of the universe has been revealed, and there is practically no more enemy unless the reapers invade. Plus the 3 of the cast members are dead and it would be a somber reminder of what we have lost if they create new characters. But yeah, river tam is a nice welcome to see again in the tv screen.

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

@@Nightmare704RY Indeed. Rouge trader is a different thing entirely. Rogue Trader however would be a bit closer to The Expanse, which everyone loves. Inquisitor Amos is canon now.

[@Nightmare704RY]

@@jamesmaybrick2001 I don't know that one.

[@glenndzombar2903]

But Wash is dead, Jim. I'd still watch the heck out of it

[@sanchezcrunch]

Convinced the way to do a space marine thing is the same as Dredd tried to interpret the comics as "Dredd gets called in to sort a tower block, and then he does" like its plucked from a random weekly strip, do a skirmish like you're making a film from an actual game of 40k, and maybe make it Deathwatch so you can get multiple characters of different vibes interacting with conflicting with each other

[@AshleyBlackwater]

A killteam including a Raven Gaurd, Salamander, and an Iron hand (lets make him a techmarine for extra interest) could be a very fun mix for conflict. Maybe add a Marine Malavolent for shits and giggles.

[@mut1565]

11:13 What on earth are you talking about? We have entire books written from a space marines point of view.

[@hiraethart]

Agreed. That was so off.

[@rrwholloway]

And were any of them worth reading….?

[@mut1565]

@@rrwholloway Some more than others.

[@luketfer]

@@rrwholloway Most of them, no, not really, the Horus Heresy is like 80% Boring Bolter Porn, 20% actually interesting stories.

[@turnipslop3822]

I would add to the comments of the show being unapproachable, like Pariah Nexus, but I've shown Astartes to a lot of people and I've found that those 'questions' did not put people off at all. In fact they got very excited about the universe and came to ask me all about it. Those questions are hooks that get people invested in the characters and the world. Why does that Sister want to kill children? That makes her mysterious and intriguing. What is that mysterious man kneeling in front of the orb and why does he go insane? I don't think that unexplained questions are a bad thing as long as the show slowly trickles out answers. That's actually really good writing.

[@piripikaa5729]

I had a similar experience trying to explain 40k to my partner and she's like ummmmm ok. But when I showed her astartes she was truly blown away and asked alot of questions about that legendary clip if they can get the same effect as astartes did then where on a good track

[@LANCEtheBOIL]

That's the problem, I'm afraid they are going to come at this project like every other movie instead of going a different route, everybody's pretty sick of the same ol' same ol' especially in fantasy/sci fy, just look at how well GOT did ( until they ran out of jrr Martin's writing)

[@aldrigvila]

@@LANCEtheBOIL thats exactly my point aswell and why I dislike this video. They SHOULD go the unique route of WH40k. It will truly shock people and show them a world that puts everything else to shame.

[@captainweekend5276]

Honestly this pretty much reinforces my belief on why Eisenhorn: Xenos would be the best story to adapt: Interpersonal conflict: Something I think you undersell to make out to be impossible and maybe is for the rank and file, but it's done very well in the Eisenhorn series, inquisitors and their retinue are given special privileges over the average imperial peon, you can actually have interpersonal conflict without someone having their head shattered by a bolter round a second later. Fish out of water: That's basically what Bequin is, an average imperial woman who suddenly has a run in with an inquisitor, is discovered to have a power that makes her special and is taken from her everyday life on an adventure that takes her across the galaxy. Space Marines: Xenos features two types, chaos space marines of the emperor's children and the elite deathwatch chapter, and the important part is they're used sparingly. I firmly believe seeing live action space marines is something that will keep people hooked and watching until it happens, so not blowing their load in the first few episodes to get people invested will be important. Cavill has already indicated he wants to use them carefully which is why I think we're more likely to get a "domestic imperium" centred story like Eisenhorn (who Cavill has also indicated in the past he would like to play) rather than starting an adaptation of the horus heresy.

[@OldenDemon]

I think this is the best bet

[@fabrikator-generalakhilley6896]

A huge relief for the poor editors having to splice blown-up footage of heavyweight bodybuilders in expensive prop-armour just to get them looking lore-accurate.... only to re-paint the armor with some different gubbins attached for the next season of bolter-y gorn!

[@Chadthed1ckchamp]

yea but, eventually. how frickin cool would it be to see the horus heresy... i mean imagine that. its a really good story. could be adapted well.

[@Dodovacer]

Using them carefully. Maybe then Marines then get the Vader treatment of Rogue One. :P

[@m41282]

You are spot on in that Eisenhorn is the best bet and pretty much perfect for a series. 1. As you mentioned, it has a human pov and mostly human retinue. 2. With clever sets and volume filming production costs don't have to blow out with a CG character (space marines) in every scene. 3. Eisenhorn is basically a detective / thriller series first which lends itself to a "investigation of the week" style which fits a series perfectly (the Witcher was at its best when it was this). Being a detective story also means that the plot can be moved forward with dialogue and acting with actual people and discussion of clues etc. rather than action beat after action beat. 4. Since there is chronologically so much time between books there is no set lore on every other mission that Eisenhorn went on which gives more space for writers to add in other adventures between larger story beats. 5. Eisenhorn and his retinue travel around to different systems and planets which lets the audience experience what the Imperium is, how its people live, what the setting is about etc. 6. You can still save all your CG budget for the end and blow it on a big battle as the climax.

[@DeusBlackheart]

You actually could do a SM show. But you'd need to make them Deathwatch as they have diverse attitudes, and they do have interpersonal conflict.

[@Fastwinstondoom]

Or just make it about the Salamanders.

[@Nightmare704RY]

​@@Fastwinstondoomthe nexus series had a salamander protagonist for a reason.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

@Nightmare704RY And even they where oblivious to reality... sending a girl with a message. Which shows the good writing there! So... typical of a even a Sally.

[@Nightmare704RY]

@@lostbutfreesoul to be fair, the girl wasn't alone there... srill... point taken.

[@phil24782]

They will go for Ultramarines, as they always do. With Space Marine II gathering a huge fanbase, they will def. make Titus play a major role in the upcoming series.

[@superspecky4eyes]

In my opinion they should make the show about the "main" character a new recruit in the imperial guard. More down to earth/more human. At some point our recruit crosses paths with a spacemarine.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Yeah. Cause a multi part series about how said recruit is brutalized for a brief period of training before being handed a lazgun and send to die in fifteen seconds would make just tremendous viewing.

[@allenpoe17]

I would like this as well. Make it band of brothers but 40k

[@jamesflames6987]

The upside of 40k is the richness of the lore. The difficulty is that it relies so heavily on trompe-l'œil style writing - words and descriptions which give an incredible sense of scale and atmosphere in the mind's eye, but being very difficult to actually put onto film. This has lead to most film depictions of 40k being extremely underwhelming and even the better ones feel like they are constantly struggling against their inability to depict the full scale of the scene.

[@darriandalangini377]

It has to be Eisenhorn. Henry has to play our favorite Inquisitor. Maybe they will elaborate on Gregor's upbringing, maybe he was a farmboy like Luke before he was discovered to have psychic powers.

[@phil24782]

Henry literally said: In a universe of Custodes and Primarchs, why would someone want to be an Inquisitor.

[@dirtyhandskev]

I think the big question is this - do we *want* extremely niche films/stories to have broad appeal to a wider audience? Or do we just want stuff that we can appreciate but somehow be financially feasible for them to keep making? I think this has less to do about faithful adaptations, and more to do with spreading fandom (a cult) enough that the IP can be self sustaining - once you have enough people that understand your fandom, you can just peddle garbage and the fans will endlessly defend it whether the product is good or not. GW/amazon is banking on enough people out there knowing what a space marine is and having the devoted explain every nook and crany to grandma in an endless sea of nerdery that eventually its "goodness" will be unquestionably - the same reason marvel essentially ruined cinema. tl;dr Gw doesnt need to make good content, it just needs to reach a certain tipping point of fans knowing what space marines are and let them do the work for you.

[@OldenDemon]

I've probably slanted this video too negative and not given enough time for the conclusion. But I believe it is possible to have your cake and eat it too. Remember Game of Thrones and Marvel were both niche at one point. However overmilking and rushing content will lead to ruin.

[@dirtyhandskev]

@@OldenDemon I don't think you are too negative, I think the issue of "using IP with a built in fandom" is just bigger than 40k - and fans lose sight of that. "Good" or "bad" content doesn't really matter - what matters is using people's devotion to a universe/setting as a way to not have to worry about making good or bad content. Everything the fan does is just wish listing in the eyes of the production company.

[@bobbinsgaming3028]

One key thing you're missing is that the generally-agreed best 40k novel series - Eisenhorn, Gaunt's Ghosts etc - are written by a man who is a professional tv scriptwriter, and Abnett has specifically developed an episodic, crescendo-focused writing style which is perfectly suited for tv. He's also written Marines with actual personalities and interesting stories (Iron Snakes, the various marines in the aforementioned series). He's also used them sparingly - making them look impressive, and scary, and special, but not over-exposed. Abnett has also included a healthy dose of comedy in all of his books, including in Space Marine scenarios. Really, all your concerns are directly addressed by the bloke who has already produced several years worth of direct-to-screen material of the highest quality. Also, "Kaddians"? 😂

[@markedwards2954]

To be be fair most of the individually named space marine characters are incredibly well written

[@allenpoe17]

Agreed. There are many amazing Space Marine characters.

[@sjmarham]

Everyone says Eisenhorn, but I reckon Cavill would make a perfect Ciaphas Cain.

[@pauln6803]

Cain is popular, but it's the same old "Slacker stumbles across trouble, saves the day by cunning and luck" - there's nothing to separate it from every other show with a reluctant comedic hero. 40K should be unrelentingly grim, factional and spiced with bloody ultraviolence.

[@sjmarham]

@@pauln6803 He doesn't have to be that comedic. Dry wit would work. Blackadder vs Benny Hill/American live comedy shows. If its that 40k he'll probably be dead by the 3rd episode. Either way, I'll be interested to see how they do Astartes and Inquisitors in Terminator/power armour vs the rank and file plebs. Maybe GW will actually put definite numbers on scale. Or you get the masculine hero who wanders through fire and saves the day in the nick of time using some deux ex machina.

[@gamersresidence6040]

The series should be about a human bwing selected for training to join the Salamanders. Struggles, growth, different scenarios, emotional capability, stakes.

[@gaizokubanou]

Make it in familiar vain as 300. Bombastic, ridiculously over the top, dead serious. Like a hard rated R Bollywood. Imagine US Marines recruitment ads done with 40k property and for movie duration and lot of gore.

[@kr0w119]

Starship Troopers meets 300 meets some WWII documentary meets The Roman Empire in space meets Mad Max vs Aliens vs Hellraiser, and turn it all up to 11.

[@spliskin5090]

Fifteen Hours would make the PERFECT starting point for adaption.

[@adamsmith8765]

It all depends on how it is adapted. A live action anthology series could work well. This way you get bite sized bits of 40k that are resolved by the end of the episode. Each episode could focus on different factions. Alternatively, make it more like AHS with each season being its own storyline. Rogue Trader would be perfect as it could follow a Rogue traders crew on their various adventures. The crew composition can be diverse perhaps with the odd xenos allowing for tension etc. It all comes down to what you choose to do with the material and which faction you choose to follow. There are things suited to a 20 minute episode in an hour long anthology and there are stories that will work as a single mini series or film.

[@wurzella1]

That's a brilliant idea to introduce 40k to the wider world. I was thinking keep it small scale, Eisenhorn or Gaunt's ghosts kind of scale, but an anthology would be much better.

[@va818]

Rogue Traders are probably the most overlooked and under-rated aspect of the 40k universe - especially for a TV series they would let you do all the dynamic character ensembles that an Inquisitor would but without having to be about all the secrets and lore that makes an Inquisition story work. You could have a Rogue-Trader focused political drama with no chaos, no xenos and no Space Marines and it would work really well. Absolutely agree that it would be better to just make each season it's own story.

[@andrewailey1996]

Has this dude ever even watched the boys or gen v both have the exact tone wh 40k needs?

[@moogiibat5845]

The new Dredd movie failure can also be contributed to THE GIANT "3D" in there at time people were sick of 3D cinema. Because of it most people just thought in was another low budget cash grab. That is what I thought when it was released.

[@solarus2120]

An inquisitorial coterie (a la the 54mm Inquisitor game, or Dark Heresy) is probably the best way to go about it. You can then have The Space Marine, The Space Nun, The Guardsman, The Tech-Priest and any other 40k specific thing you wanted to showcase. Have them show up to a world and have to deal with local politics to investigate whatever's going on: genestealer cults, chaos cults, archeotech, whatever. I'm now picturing an Ordo Hereticus rocking up to a hive world thats suspected to have genestealers, flanked by his entourage of the Marine, the Battlesister, the Tech-Priest and the Eldar

[@naiveanon684]

I think something close to the Vaults of Terra series would be good. It allows you to set the location somewhere familiar, showcase everything you need to know about the Imperium, and sprinkle in some of the factions like Space Marines/Custodes/Guard. All while being a largely "normal humans in weird clothes" production to keep the budget down. Either way I do agree that a mystery/detective centering around the Inquisition would be the best of all worlds, and would be the easiest for the audience to become invested in.

[@TheFifthHorseman_]

Rogue Trader angle. It's Star Trek, except grimdark.

[@2013Arcturus]

Including Xenos. Though I'd argue a Rogue Trader show is the best breadth and width for your buck, simply because they are technically "allowed" to interact peacefully with Xenos. The Rogue Trader PC really did an awesome job of showing off another slice of life in the 41st millennium.

[@criticalcommenter]

Why? Why lead your franchise with boring stuff that nobody cares about? Marines are what make 40k. They are the poster boys for the entire franchise and you want to sideline them to make a BBC style crime thriller? You honestly think that'll be a success?

[@TheFifthHorseman_]

@@criticalcommenter The problem is that the target audience are normies who don't know shit about the setting. The first show or movie has to be designed as a gateway product and Space Marines need to be used sparingly. Then once the audience is used to it, you can bring in all the explosive hyperviolent Space Marine action you like.

[@cp1cupcake]

I think the major issue is that Amazon has shown that it is really really bad doing adaptations of fantasy and it is just going to do the same despite having an actual fan nominally in control.

[@IAmebAdger]

We haven't a large enough sample size yet to pigeonhole Amazon in the 'can't do anything right' corner.

[@HighVoltageKits]

Rings of Poop says hi ​@@IAmebAdger

[@IAmebAdger]

@@HighVoltageKits that's the one me and everyone knows about

[@loklan1]

@@IAmebAdger Wheel of Time also isn't great.

[@Umbrellagasm]

I dont think "having fans in control" is a solution - just because you like the source material doesnt mean you can do it justice, or what you find exciting about the setting is what other people will connect with. I am sure JJ Abrams geniunely loves star wars. I don't believe he started loving star trek less between 2009 and Into Darkness

[@justandrew1684]

the idea that you cannot make a sympathetic space marine yet "Space Marine" is good because of the main character is fun.

[@imcallingjapan2178]

Do you mean the Ian Watson book Space Marine? it was good, but I wouldn't describe it as "fun"...

[@kapitankapital6580]

Honestly this video feels like it was written 5 years ago. Most young people now are at least somewhat familiar with Warhammer through video games and KZbin, major streamers talk about Games Workshop and during Covid GW was the fastest growing stock option in the UK. I think a lot of older fans are really struggling to grasp that Warhammer already is mainstream now, or at least is not the niche hobby it was when we were growing up.

[@esbenm6544]

Those videogames have been around forever. Several times he mentions "the cut scene that everyone liked from Dawn of War," which came out in 2004. You give way too much credence to the ability for videogames alone to breach that divide.

[@kapitankapital6580]

@@esbenm6544 learn to read

[@esbenm6544]

@@kapitankapital6580 cope🍼

[@uignireddngfiurdsgfiurdse]

"In the modern 40k setting, there is almost no interpersonal conflict to base the story around" Man learns of 40k, makes a video a week later to cash in on the trend.

[@Chris-lr2qb]

Space Marines would make a pretty good Deus Ex Machina. Imagine the series focused on some lowly imperial citizen, trying to survive on some awful industrial planet, and it gets invaded by . The series focuses on this planet's resistance through the eyes of a normal citizen who is pressed into the planetary militia against unspeakable horrors, and everyone's questioning the Emperor's Word and wondering when His Angels will arrive to save them all. You can have interpersonal scenes quite easily, with some cool battle scenes where the militia and Imperial Guard are fighting a heroic yet futile planetary defence (again seen through the eyes of our protagonist), maybe the Sororitas show up on occasion, and the inquisition maybe. But then at some moment where all hope is lost for our protagonist, a squad of astartes show up to kick ass and chew bubblegum. They don't even need to be characters - just voiceless, faceless killing machines that we see only through a second-person point of view. You get the human-scale characters with all that comes with (inter-personal struggle, character progression, etc.), you get the epic 40k theme of endless war, you get the hopelessness of the setting, you have room for fan service, and you get the power-fantasy bad-assness of marines without having to make them characters in their own right.

[@CaptainFancyCat]

They kinda already did that with Iron Within, but added the twist of it being the Iron Warriors, traitor marines, that answered the call for help. Summary on WH+: As Drukhari raiders plague an Imperial planet, the embattled Astra Militarum send out a desperate cry for help. Salvation arrives in the form of a force of Space Marines, but the population of the planet soon learn to be careful what they wish for...

[@ThBlackLst]

i was thinking something similar, except starting it on a knight world, and just make the first season game of thrones with mechs, then the imperium turn up at the end of season one, you get loads if inter house bickering and political backstabbing (something audiences like and are familiar with,) but with some flashy giant robot fighting, then you could show how small they are in relation to the wider world. end up round season 5 they all get pressganged to go fight chaos or something

[@rickdollings7382]

Probably need to start with an emperial guard story. They'd be most relatable, and you could have successes with them, but they could also get crushed whenever it's most convenient.

[@momo9594]

Well, you are forgetting the film on KZbin "Armageddon" I think it's perfect. It was my first 40k experience and I found it intriguing enough to get into the lore.

[@aldraone-mu5yg]

I disagree, the lore is deep enough to find ways around these problems. It’s the lack of creativity at Amazon that will kill it, not the inflexibility of the setting.

[@gingerbong]

What if they do the film/series from the perspective of a guardsman so u can get character development and add a space marine towards the end as a saviour or boss fight

[@kharnifex]

It's pronounced Bouquet

[@HappyHappyJoyJoy658]

Anyone help me out with that Stallone Dredd posed GW mini, what is it, can I still get it?

[@OldenDemon]

He's from the Kill Team: Elucidian Starstriders set

[@HappyHappyJoyJoy658]

​@@OldenDemon that's nuts, I've perused the contents of that box a multitude of times and never clicked/clocked on, distracted by the dogo's & techno-archeologist I suppose, thanks so much for the clarification & prompt response, great video btw, you certainly echo a host of worries I think we're all harbouring.

[@DavidArcher_]

I have a question. Why would we even want the mass social acceptance of our hobby? No seriously; I understand why the companies involved would want it but I already like 40K, what is the actual upside to me personally of more people liking it? It seems like it involves a massive risk of something I like being ruined with little actual benefit.

[@jeancouscous]

Capitalism and investors demands companies to grow in order to be profitable more and more. That's the world we live in. Simple as that. You would be surprised that the world doesn't revolve around what you personally want.

[@davidc8982]

That's simple GW isn't doing this for existing fans. It is doing it boost the fan base and sell more models. They'll take existing fans for granted.

[@joelkurowski7129]

Ding ding ding. You are correct. We do not need this, and should not ask for this monkey's paw wish.

[@DominatorLegend]

I really hope 40K doesn't end up like MtG.

[@maxkircher4671]

The upside to you personally is that you get to talk to more people about it and make more friends, and that people stop thinking you're weird for liking it. I don't know about you, but both those outcomes sound pretty good to me.

[@stillunsure7630]

You canbreplace the bulb on some with green ones or even use the flicker and dimmer type ones to show different strengths of warp stone. These look great and will need to try it out.

[@azrael1045]

how do you put a servitor on screen, or a penitent engine?

[@riblo72]

Or a cherub

[@allenpoe17]

I hope get those just for the what the fuck factor

[@mrrodriguezHLP]

Mommy. Where do Chaos Marines come from?

[@jusztinnemeti6380]

Oh my goodness, World at War. I can see the burning logo in my head and hear the music. You sir, have a really good idea.

[@garethjohns8458]

Okay you say that Pariah Nexus is unapproachable, but it's not. I had a coworker, who knows nothing about 40K beyond the fact that I'm into it, watch it and love it and ask me all about it.

[@PyroTech03]

I'm just discovering the lore and sleeping to a bunch of KZbin timeline and analysis videos on it. I'd love to see a bunch of smaller limited series about specific points. Maybe an anthology series where each season can cover a different time period or event. I'm scared to actually start reading the books lmao

[@DisasterLord]

The thought about a docu series about the Badab war brought me so much joy, fuck that would be good

[@THX-to6gg]

I agree I’m not sure that a 40k show will have mass appeal but I think there’s a significant number of viewers that would make it profitable like the Dune films have proven.

[@MortalAgenda]

Dune had the advantage of being the best selling sci fi book of all time. If you’re going to compare to Dune, I think you’re setting yourself up for disappointment…

[@laviljoski6952]

@@MortalAgenda most of the people who saw dune had no idea it was a book

[@andrewnewell1142]

Ooh, I saw that manowar at the start

[@aldraone-mu5yg]

Frankly I don’t give a shit what the general public thinks it wants. If we stuck to that kind of thinking Star Wars would never had been made, and that was in the 70s.

[@pauln6803]

Game of Thrones was successful enough with all its politics and plotting, so I don't think 40K should be too much of a challenge. The biggest challenge as I see it will be time and budget, as it will require a lot of flashy CGI that can so easily end up looking terrible. If a stupidly large budget comic book Hollywood production, with it's ready made audience of kids pestering their parents to take them to see it looks like a dog's dinner, then grim dark ultra violence set in an entire galaxy at war is going to need a lot of passion and talent to pull off.

[@nomindsyndicate5167]

"first trilogy of books" *shows 5 books*

[@gergelyosztrogonacz9464]

The books managed to give marine characters charisma, personality, and inner conflicts. Doubt a TV series couldn't do it

[@trovarion]

7:17 I choked on my drink 😂

[@GainsDorn]

Just remind one thing that could make it easy: The "regular" Imperial Citizen has no idea about Necrons, Eldars, Orks or Tyranids. Only some have heared that these Xenos exist but have never seen one. And he doesn´t know how they look or what they do. The Chances for him to meet a Space Marine or anybody else who is important is low, too. So it would be easy to bring a viewer into the universe by starting from such a point of view. Lots and lots of possibilities! That´s also a good start for new Charakters in the Warhammer 40k-Pen&Paper Game "Dark Heresy". Every Character is new in the Job he just started. The whole Universe unfolds right in front of his eyes - and he realizes with every part of it, how Grim Dark it really is.

[@brynnthomas6969]

The best BL books aren’t about space marines and the best space marine books are focused on single squads/war bands. ADB is the 🐐 of character development and dialogue.

[@redjacc7581]

i thought they were already making "eisenhorn" series. is the cavill one the same thing or something different?

[@QYVXZ]

Pariah Nexus is good...compared to 90% of the alternatives. I read the positive reaction as a "yes, this is in the right direction now do a proper length one" sort of thing. Agreed that the setup and payoff happens way too abruptly but you can see a world where it's done in a satisfying way and the superfans will fill in those blanks automatically. Or I'm wrong and stupid, one of the two.

[@aaroncarter4019]

To clarify one point, there are an abundance of shows and movies that have been made up to current year that are all based on books. Some are obscure but others are named directly after the book, I think it's just not realized often how many of these works are based on existing literature. As for the shows, the most critical point would be that the stories have to explore something and have at least a bit of critical thought going on. A bit of humanity or introspection in it all. There's a trend for 40k stories to become 190 pages of bolter porn where it's all about several dozen scenes of emptying guns into enemies. Even in the war focused stories, the best demonstrate cunning and thought being used. Alternatively, do something like Honourbond that mixes folklore imagery + intrigue with interpersonal drama around one's service and loyalty.

[@1985slipstream]

I am worried that "they" will try and change the 40k verse. "but why cant we have a female whos brothers are all selected to become Space marines fight her way up to prove herself and become the saviour of her homeworld... ughhhh

[@mojoforthewin3069]

I genuinely think the best thing for a 40k series would be to avoid Space Marines altogether, at least as principles. By their very nature, they’re removed from typical human concerns, and the fact that they’re exclusively male removes a lot of potential variance in main characters. IMO the best focus would be something like a Gaunt’s Ghost book: a squad of Imp Guard troopers, maybe with civvies mixed in, fighting a battle against a horrific, nigh-unstoppable force. As the story progresses, you can pull back the focus and expand on the Imperium’s scope/history more

[@FredrickDouglass69]

They need to make sure space marines are in the background with mostly a suggestion of badassness. And when they are unleashed it’s like the second half of the 2008 ‘Rambo’ movie.

[@OldenDemon]

Ideally, I would like to see a Space Marine as more of a Hannibal Lector style presence throughout rather than an overbearing character

[@shorelessskies]

My main concern is the horror element. It’s one thing to read about someone being flayed alive, or seeing a funky Drukhari model, and another to see it on the screen. What mainstream viewer wants that? I don’t.

[@peterixon8708]

Mate, was pissing myself, laughing, as I watched this excellent video. If you ever want to switch streams, you've got a career ahead of you in comedy. Seriously, bloody funny review of things. Well done. Loved it.

[@OldenDemon]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

[@complicatedgentleman]

Maybe Netflix can also have a weekly cartoon in the style of Smurfs about Snotlings? This week, Brainey Snotling is used as ammo for a Shokk Attack Gun, hilarity ensues.

[@michaelryan6947]

You know theres one format (and it would never EVER happen) that just might work, a series of "talking heads" episodes. A guardsman knowing he's a goner against encroaching nids, a titan Princeps arguing with themselves as multiple personalities of previous pilots try to fight for personality domination, a Marine being housed into a dreadnaught chassis, a chaos marine having doubts...endless possibilities of something that will never occur. Keep up the good work Mucka and release the Dachsunds!!!

[@ksamuel9]

Why does it have to be Space Marine led though?

[@Sonof_DRN2004]

Guilliman can be used for the fish out water scenario, he’s new to the world of 40K.

[@nomindsyndicate5167]

Yes thats what I'm sayin! See my comment please

[@fabrikator-generalakhilley6896]

THEORETICAL: Calmeth thine tits and enact a galaxy wide enema to the rotten-corpse that is the current imperium. PRACTICAL: [Ultra-screaming intensifies inwardly]

[@lostbutfreesoul]

If they are sensible they would *not* copy any of the books. The answer to a good movie in the 40k series is to create a whole new story, designed for the big screen, with their own characters, independent of the Imperil system somewhat. I am, of course, talking about a Rogue Trader series that follows a mix-group of individuals and their Sacred Warrant. The character that we follow could even be from an agri-world, made important by plot and spirited away by some noble family, growing into the role of a Rogue Trader themselves. Hit's every box that way, would it not? And, best of all... you need only one Space Marine!

[@allenpoe17]

I agree. Give us new stories.

[@shaneriggs6678]

As someone who recently got into Warhammer 40k it getting a Amazon series and become mainstream is a nightmare, everything else is horrible and going down the drain star wars, marvel, DC comics, Terminator, all I really want is KZbin lore videos and a few videos games here and there and to the lore and setting of Warhammer 40k series maintains it's quality

[@CarstinTwitch]

I would personally want to see a story about a single Astra Militarum guardsman's rise to be general or smth. Or maybe some Catachan Jungle Fighters shenagigans

[@CarnelianUK]

A lot of your arguments are not unsolvable: 1. Don't make a space marine the primary protagonist. Have them as supporting characters, or enemies 2. Inter-personal conflict - easily done. Inquisitors have rivalries and differing interpretations of their missions that don't necessarily devolve into war and execution. Rogue Traders have rival dynasties trying to muscle in on their contracts. Hive gangs have conflict between gangs and within gangs. 3. Introducing outsiders through the everyman, fish out of water protagonist - easy, have your main character be from a backwater world embroiled in the aforementioned shenanigans of a rogue trader or inquisitor

[@theshrubking9974]

What about something like the soul drinkers? A chapter falling to chaos would give space marines actual character growth and interpersonal conflict, and the redemption and continued rejection of the imperium lets them be protagonists and even distance themselves from the less marketable aspects of the imperium

[@MatthewBester]

You know what, I think Interrogator was my favourite show on Warhammer TV. No space marines. No xenos. Small self contained plot, it was great. I wonder what the stats say...

[@therebel1375]

I think a good story following the salamanders would be good. The conflict of trying to save the people of the planet vs the over all goal of exterminating the threats to the imperium

[@keepcalmandre-roll5480]

They could donate Necromunda TV show. That would be perfect for creating conflict and character development. Follow one gang and their rivalry with another then slowly introduce more gangs over time. It would be a good intro to the 40K universe. The other option if they want to do 40K is to make it like starship troopers, have Imperial propaganda vids included in the narrative etc.

[@cropathfinder]

Honestly ciaphus cain would i think be the best mass start point. Its got comedy, stories that are great gateway points to the universe, good cast of characters, a likable hero (whose more known inspiration "Black Adder" has a good following),has character development, has a wide range of stories you could do with him on a season by season basis. Other then that , honestly adapt dawn of war 1 or 2 as a gateway, you could do a a lot to expand it into a one or more stories. DoW did a great job getting people who didn't know much about the universe and introducing it to it and i think a big screen version could do. Its got action, intrigue, plotting, interpersonal conflicts , Gabriel Angelos would make a great central character from whose point we see everything unfold , it would introduce viewers to some of the key factions and the universe gradually as the story develops like the game did.

[@Verity98765]

Tbh I think you are underestimating the size of the "nerd" audience. This is not 10 or 20 years ago where you'd need forty year old football loving Gary who used to bully people who read books at school or sixty five year old Joan who doesn't understand what CGI is to have a successful TV series/movie. We're in the shadow of Super Hero & Sci-fi films being the most viewed type of movie for at least a decade now after a point where they were just constant flops at the box office. I agree that the people who expect something like the Horus Heresy to be made into a TV series, expect ultra-gore or want nothing but lore accurate constant massive battles are going to be disappointed but I think there are numerous ways that 40k can be adapted to be relatable. Ciaphas Cain is actually a good example of a character that should be a chain sword wielding zealot but in reality is actually a more human character acting contrary to the stereotype. It really is just down to the hands of the people making it to get the balance right and market it to the correct audience. For the weirder stuff that the puritans will demand the obvious solution is to do a series of short animated films like the Love,Death and Robots series offering brief glimpses through the window into the various 40k settings. That way you don't need to bother with the "Space Marine praying problem" or "how do you explain Drukhari in an animation" you just show them doing what they do and present enough background noise to keep it interesting. A lot of people like Astartes because it managed just that and in reality when looked at objectively it is a fan movie level of story telling due to limited resources.

[@grimm_40k]

Space Marines are boring? I present you the Night Lords trilogy. The characters in that have depth and dark humour. Granted, visually, it would be flayed skin everywhere.

[@OldenDemon]

I have been recommended that actually, maybe I should check it out

[@goncalovicente1]

Of all the books and stories about 40k, one story which I personally think could be well adapted into a series is Ephrael Stern's graphic novels; her journey from being a regular Battle Sister into the Daemonifuge.

[@pldcanfly]

The spacemarine and approachability-problem is why i think it will be forcused around the imperial guard. They are fan favorites for the one that are already into warhammer, they can be human with human problems, the average guardsmen nows pretty much nothing about xenos or chaos, and so it would be a nice way to bring the viewer closer to those topics, and everybody can understand 'Dictatorial regime and soldiers being treaded like cannonfooder" relatively quickly.

[@MrWepx-hy6sn]

The argument that "Space Marines cannot be relatable" is stupid IMO since we have characters like Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Alexis Pollux, Barnabas Dantioch, Sigismund, Grimaldus, Pedro Kantor, Logan Grimnar, Ragnar Blackmane etc... Hell there are 63 books about Space Marines and they are literally just written like they were normal people (personality wise) in between the action scenes.

[@allenpoe17]

Yeah that part was odd. I love reading with books featuring the space marines. They are great.

[@MrWepx-hy6sn]

@@allenpoe17 IKR? I don't know how people still go on that tirade when we have a metric fuckton of space marines books. We don't need to make everyone "oh so relatable and normal and random" like Jennifer Lawrence made her whole early persona about.

[@allenpoe17]

@MrWepx-hy6sn It was such a bizarre comment. It makes me wonder just how many books they've read. Have you read Devastation Of Baal? Edit: I ask as I don't wanna spoil anything in case you haven't.

[@hanchiman]

Honestly, it kinda hard to make a show or movie about the Space Marine in a "serious way" and even if it was serious, sooner or later their depiction will end up being "hammed up" that unintentionally become comical due to the massive explosion gore and bullets, sorta similar to the parody flash movie "Space King". But then again, Warhammer 40k originally started out as a "Satire" to the 80's macho culture where it intentionally being "Over the top". I think if there is a 40k TV series, the Space Marine should just appear as Cameo characters or once in a while appear fighting alongside with the IG. In Warhammer lore, humans seeing a Space Marine is usually a chance of 1 out of 1000.

[@mochabear7159]

I still think the Cain series has more than enough to capture the wider audience, an aware and self deprecating main character. A smelly side kick, a beautiful and deadly love interest and multiple changing settings that keep trying to kill him etc.

[@billyclement5141]

I think you/we are looking at this all wrong. Cavill isn't just the King of all nerds, he's an accomplished and successful professional with a ton of experience in the industry he works in. For us- 'superfans', if you like- there's the obvious attraction. We either love his work on screen, or we love his off screen persona- he's 'our' man, he gets us. But when it comes to putting a show together he's not going to be slavishly adhering to what the hobby already has, he'll be attempting to adapt our hobby to what the on screen entertainment business already has. He knows how to get fans behind his projects, he knows what works and what doesn't, and now he's got access to huge resources and a ready made audience. More than that, the timing on this couldn't be better. His backer is looking for a new genre to exploit. Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings and Superhero franchises have all fallen flat on their backsides of late; the market is crying out for a replacement to fill the void. A big part of the failure of those previously dominant franchises has been their conscious decision to antagonise their pre-existing fan base. The reasons for doing so aren't as important as the devastating effect that attacking their most likely potential audience had. Cavill has taken the opposite approach, he has a history of going out of his way to assuage fans' concerns and validate their passion, even if it's critical of the end product he's involved in producing. It's a 'bird in the hand' approach which I think will serve him well in the new project. As long as he gives his fans (and 'pure' Warhammer fans) some of what they want, they'll check in at the start of his show. After that, it'll be up to good storytelling and decent production values to do the rest for a large, pre-existing audience. If he can make a decent, entertaining show- and I see no reason why he won't be able to precisely that- then we can repay him by passing the word. Warhammer has enormous potential. I think Henry Cavill is just the man to tap into it.

[@OldenDemon]

I really like well thought out comments like this. Well done, I hope you become or continue to be a happy subscriber

[@boundtobounce2983]

A Warhammer 40k show or movie focusing on space marines only would be a massive disservice to the medium as it would only capture the universe from a narrow minded pov. To grab the audience’s attention and get them immersed in the world of 40k the story needs to be told from the narrative pov of a Rogue Trader as it would help encapsulate the bigger picture better.

[@kofibrake]

how to introduce normies to 40K: 1- show Event Horizon 2- they now understand the basis for the Warp. -fast forward 40000 years, to a trench war scenario

[@tonlito22]

What you've said makes me think the best idea for a story for to start the 40k Series is Armageddon. There's character growth as Commissar Yarik goes from a political officer riding out his retirement on a world were nothing ever happens to quasi divine military and political genius saving the world. Drama as the Orks invade and the planetary governor betrays the world. And corporate mandated Space Marines saving the day represented by the Blood Angels both ruining the Orks at the beginning of battle and the masterful deep strike gambit into Gazkul's rear that broke the Waaagh!!! and caused the big green monster to go away for a little while. It even has comedy in the form of gretchin running around and blowing themselves up. And you show off whatever factions you want in the background: Titan Legions, Skitarii, every different type of Ork, Leagues of Votan in the form of the Squats of Golgatha, Space Marines, maybe even hint at some Chaos Space Marines or Demons on Armageddon (though why you would think they'd be there I have no idea). Armageddon, who know's there'll be a sequel.

[@Rdtzilla8958]

As soon as you started the section on space marines I immediately thought of the salamanders since they space marines if they acted like normal people, cared about the average person, and is possible to have emotions except rage murder and intense screams

[@joshuawilson8804]

Have you seen the stop motion of a space marine running using 3d models? Its actually very good story telling for just a looping image of a space marine running, moments before he or the ship he is on explodes. You have have fight scenes but if there is a dreaded time limit, is what keeps it engaging. Helms deep is a masterclass of how to do a big battle and character focused affecting the entire battle.

[@cactus_judy3929]

The best scenario is an adaptation with similar pacing to the one section of "The All Guardsman Party" where they meet the space marine at the end.

[@madsondurton8754]

It should start with a close up of Horus saying, you lied to us father.

[@blessthe90s60]

Dredd with karl urban was fantastic imo.

[@redjacc7581]

that other CGI series featuring the blood ravens was really good, much better than astartes. Its called Angels of death

[@tinyfishhobby3138]

I think that perhaps it’s a little bit early for the doom and gloom to already begin. These deals have literally just been inked, and it will be at least three to five years before audiences even see any of this on screen. That’s a really long period of time in which a ton of things can change and happen. Maybe let’s wait and see what happens before getting into an uproar about how Warhammer 40,000 is totally and completely unadaptable to the television screen.

[@allenpoe17]

Agreed. They are jumping literal years ahead of themselves on this. I'm waiting for far more info before I even decide if I'm excited or not.

[@tinyfishhobby3138]

@@allenpoe17 Exactly. Come back with an analysis video when there’s actually a trailer or two and some behind the scenes production photos, you know?

[@gearlordgeneration6673]

I think a Love Death Robots concept would really work for warhammer 40k

[@darsis]

Personally I think all they to do is make Band of Brothers involving Guardsmen and Cultists as opposed to Americans and Germans, and it will appeal to the masses. Introduce a single squad of Chaos Space Marines towards the end and tease the arrival of the Adeptus Astartes to assist and you have a cliffhanger season ender.

[@jeancouscous]

Gaunt ghosts perhaps ?

[@allenpoe17]

Yup. I think the same. Band of brothers but 40k would work well.

[@hereticalpaintjobs]

To comment on the bit about no character growth, that may have been the fact with earlier warhammer but in a lot of the modern warhammer stories we see lots of growth, helsreach, the betrayer, even the most recent lion son of the forest,

[@Shot5hells]

I think darktide took a good route by exploring the 40K universe from the perspective of a bunch of reject bottom of the barrel humans. Of course the game doesn’t have much story within it but even just the voice lines and interactions get people attached to their characters and the atmosphere + art/sound direction is maybe the best in any 40k thing ever.

[@poursperfectpints]

The best way to start if taking the Horus Heresy route isn't Horus Rising. It's the very divisive (among fans) Descent of Angels. Human characters in almost a traditional Fantasy setting with a sprinkling of chainswords. They debate if Terra even exists. It has great character development and interpersonal conflict between the protagonist and his cousin (who are also teenagers). It's still solidly in the universe, but drip feeds you the setting off of Caliban. Granted, there are issues. I don't recall there being any women in the novel. It doesn't have an ending besides them becoming Space Marines and joining the Crusade. But it's still checking most of the boxes. Option two would be Legion. Spy novel in space that checks nearly every box we're looking for.