SIMAGIC ALPHA vs MINI power….. DOWNGRADING” to decide if mid range DD wheel is enough

[@JayKBra]

Sim race hack, go big, turn up to max in software, turn down in game… enjoy high slews, best realism, live your sim life and avoid caring about such things.

[@Max__apex]

No. Run lower FFB to be faster and save tire wear and keep tire temperatures lower. Corrects are easier. Mini is better. I would say buy the mini

[@JayKBra]

@@Max__apex sounds like Logitech g25 talk. I’m good on that, bigger on immersion. Cheers.

[@LoserTry]

@@Max__apex not realistic

[@thijsazerty692]

Those worries only exist in someone's brain (FOMO). 9-10NM is more than enough to get a very good / immersed experience.... I'm running the mini (max in Simagic simpro and 75-90 % in game depending on game and type of car), it has plenty power to give you the necessary details Just spend the extra cash on good/better pedals, or haptics/shakers. Those will offer you more than a stronger wheelbase will.

[@JayKBra]

@@thijsazerty692 tough to understand until you experience it at length. Been there. Enjoy the journey. Cheers.

[@Tapport]

Although it's not the most scientific measurement, I love how much you rate these bases on their feel versus just the numbers. I completely understand (and honestly agree with) the argument that more overhead is better for preventing clipping and to grow into as your arms get stronger, but I also think those viewpoints are overly critical when considering a casual sim racer and convinces people to spend more money just to have something they'd never know is missing, if they ever even reach that threshold. I've been saving up for a year so that I can treat myself to an Alpha and was thinking about going for an Ultimate (upgrading from T300), but your videos convinced me that an Alpha is all that's needed, and I'll be using that extra money to add haptics to my seat instead so that I can have more fun in my rig. Keep up the great content, I subbed and will continue to tune in!

[@Max__apex]

Thanks for the smart dialogue 👍🏼….. enjoy and u made the correct decision by not buying into hype and pointless purchase

[@spayrex_]

isnt that like a rig that costs 10k?

[@Max__apex]

Yes it’s very expensive now. Vesaro rig

[@GregoryShtevensh]

I drive trucks for years, so I find my csl dd 8nm kinda average. It's definitely enough though like you said, to give you the dynamic range needed. And the details are still very high. I use an app called FFB clip, and set it to 8nm. So when I drive a gt3 for example. The details are high and it feels 1 to 1 until (as you said) a violent force such as a jump over a curb into a turn, causing sudden grip. Those sorts of things never clip, but I only ever feel them upto 8nm, when I'd imagine they would really feel more like 10nm. The forced I felt in extreme conditions in the truck wpuld be I'd guess around 11nm. Most was much lower though, maybe more like 4 to 6nm

[@Miguel-th3wx]

ffb clip is not for direct drive wheels

[@GregoryShtevensh]

@Miguel-th3wx yes it is. It's not LUT generator. It has DD mode and allows you to define a dynamo range. It's for any wheelbase

[@DrR1pper]

I wonder if the benefits of the Alpha over the mini would then only be present if one were to use the damper and inertia settings. So, keep the force output range the same as the mini still but the additional headroom would be consumed by the damper and inertia simulation component if that makes sense. On my CLS DD, turning up these settings really starts to kill the feeling of the ffb signal when they shouldn't and don't when I've tried an SC2 Pro with even higher damper and inertia settings.

[@Max__apex]

Damper and interia is friction and resistance respectively. So off course friction in a system will absorb energy and resistance will oppose motion. So a double attack on ffb fidelity. That why I have low settings for more Raw signals fully coming through.

[@mastichka]

Coming to Alpha from T300. Lowered it to 9nM max because of being scared I might worsen my old elbow injury if I leave it on max. Still experimenting though because this is my first DD experience and I feel not confident about what I'm doing.

[@Max__apex]

alpha is powerful. mini is all that is needed to be immersed. ALpha was waste of money for me. but Alpha is very nice tho.

[@itsjebby9592]

Do you need their QR to use the neo on the base?

[@Max__apex]

Yes

[@Gurzo82]

I have an alpha mini...this is exactly what i was i keep asking myself...i did the rght choice! thanks for your explanation!

[@Max__apex]

Honestly you did. The detail is the same. Big KZbinrs say the same thing. JUST the HIT on kerbs is not as violent and stupid and steers the car a bit from corner by straightening the wheel and alternating the balance …. Which Fcuks up your speed a bit. So slower

[@jnkyrd.4106]

I’ve also been debating on going from the mini to the ultimate. This really helped make up my mind that the mini is way strong enough. How do you go abound 10NM on the mini in Simpro managerThanks!

[@Max__apex]

@@jnkyrd.4106 10nm does not translate to the MINi strength. It’s closer to the measured 12.2 nm ….. on my base 10nm is okay but a bit weak and it is about 8nm in reality

[@offdapace2627]

😂 man that FOV you should be in prison for that

[@Rozie369]

Most drivers say that around 12-14nm is accurate to real life… Imo having raced mx5 Miata’s, that seems to be about right, I set to 14nm on my wheel settings and the iracing dbox to around 10-11 in the car… And really that even feels a little extra with the FFB compared to irl… Also imo, brakes is wayyy more important than your wheel

[@Max__apex]

Lower FFB fight less when it kicks which helps turning and tire wear

[@KristieGaddy]

Totally disagree . The alpha gives tons more fidelity that the mini. The more extra head space of the alpha gives a new feel of the track, tires sliding, curbs, everywhere

[@Max__apex]

Curbs feel ?? When u hit them and the car is in air flying momentarily and you have zero grip and u steering is pointless at that instant ?? So u need a big hammer blow to sense that !! 😂

[@kCalc3947]

so all details of mini, alpha and U are the same?? the difference between them is just strength ?

[@Max__apex]

Yes ….. the Mini is awesome. If u like to drive the ffb is the same. I run 8-9nm and don’t like to fight the wheel. I need information and responsive. Clipping is not an issue.

[@kCalc3947]

@@Max__apex thank you and may i know what is clipping u mean? sorry for my poor eng

[@killasjanitor]

​@@kCalc3947 Clipping is when the wheel base reaches maximum torque and cannot introduce any more detail. Any further force after the peak value will just be distorted and plain/lacking road detail.

[@cor_racing]

Does your Mini produce a lot of noise and coil whine? Mine is almost singing LOL will need to return it

[@mikekempton1993]

I upgraded from CSL DD (8nm) to alpha (15nm) and started developing wrist issues. Had to dial down FFB strength and problem went away. Mini is more than fine for most. Also, noticed you are using USB Canbus Hub. Did you have any issue with devices being recognized? Did you connect any non Simagic devices to the hub?

[@Max__apex]

I didn’t have can bus will get it soon. It can only connect simagic I think

[@eduardoaguiar9612]

I'm thinking about upgrading to the ALPHA from a Fanatec CSL DD (5nm). Can you share your thoughts?

[@Max__apex]

@@eduardoaguiar9612 Alpha mini is all that is need. Alpha is too much power and pointless waste of money. Fighting the wheel is not fast and not precise. Mini is strong and very brutal in its response. Gt Neo wheel is the best and then 300mm gts. 330mm are like a truck and heavy and slow. Mini can stand up 150’C temp but for safety limited to 70’C by EU for consumer use. I’m here to drive fast not fight the wheel. Finesse is everything. I would buy a mini again

[@eduardoaguiar9612]

@@Max__apex Thank you

[@mikekempton1993]

@@eduardoaguiar9612 - I am extremely happy with my alpha and new combo.

[@jnkyrd.4106]

My sim pro manager will only let me put max torque to 10 NM for the mini. How can you go to 12.4 or above 10?

[@Max__apex]

I got the ALPHA ….. I used a tool to measure the max holding torque of 13.5NM as test by Dan Suzuki and Iracing staff. That holding force corresponded with 12.2nm on sim pro while using my Alpha base. So my base is limited to max holding force of 13.5 NM like the Mini is and I gave my impressions on how an Alpha user perceives a weaker base.

[@SticksAandstonesBozo]

So tell me this …. If I drive with realistic to an actual cars feeling as in max 10nm power but light ish feeling weight on the wheel ….. is there any reason at all I would upgrade ? I have the mini

[@Max__apex]

no need to upgrade. I drive with light FFB now and i am faster. I can feel everything. my hands works and i can feel things. hahahahaha

[@ArchOfficial]

Turn wheel rotation speed to 0. Anything above 0 is basically compression on the input. It's just going to oscillate and constantly clip.

[@Max__apex]

Okay will try it …. What does Force feedback signal do to the curve ?? What does smoothness do to the curve ?? I thought smoothness stops the overshoot ??? But your saying rotation high makes it overshoot and then settle ( I presume due to the wheel inertia and high rotation speed makes it overshoot) ?? Also rotation speed zero the wheel is not going to be as snappy and feel a bit lazy right ??

[@ArchOfficial]

@@Max__apex Force Feedback is gain. Like changing the % higher in the sim settings. It scales the directinput output. Smoothness is a low pass filter. It reduces vibrations from the road or over kerbs. Wheel rotation speed 0 is going to be linear without any manipulation of the FF output based on steering direction vs FF direction. How it responds depends on how you drive and how the car model responds. No returnability or rotation speed issues in my models.

[@ArchOfficial]

@@Max__apex I did some more testing, and smoothness is not just a simple lowpass. 0 is best PID control and least delay, but also very noisy. 10 is insane delay to the point it feels like negative damping. A quite low value is probably best.

[@Max__apex]

@@ArchOfficial Thank you …. That is what I am running. Well on 1 not on zero. Appreciate that and I also felt that was better on very low value.

[@ArchOfficial]

@@Max__apex 0 is too harsh to feel realistic, so you kind of have to run 1. It's a shame it introduces so much delay. Even 1 has noticeably more delay than 0, but it won't be a real issue in most cases. 0 can almost perfectly control very bad situations hands-off, while you might get a tiny bit of oscillation with 1. Any more is unusable for things like drifting. I think it's just the nature of filtering, though. Making very low frequency filters in particular introduces immense delay.

[@andrewskordilis9033]

What ffb settings you running in iRacing with your “mini” test in the vid ? Cheers mate

[@Max__apex]

In simagic run capped the force to 13nm In Iracing running 7-10 nm in game what I normally run. And the felling is exactly the same. The clipping does happened but can not notice it. Clipping is not an issue as no useful information is transmitted that high up force. Clip occurs when the wheel kicked hard. At that level nuances are lost in the split second violence. Mini is all that is needed. Clipping talk is pointless in sim racing circles

[@M1kaelFM]

enjoyed your video and your insights. I´m just getting back to sim racing and I´m researching for a new wheel and pedal setup. What pedals are you using and do you think it´s worth to buy the alpha mini as a starter or should I go with a fanatec 8nm or moza r9/12?

[@Max__apex]

Get the Mini 💯….. it’s quality level stuff. I use csl load cell did 2 mods on them with a spring and then added haptic motor later on …. FROM SIMAGIC. Works a TREAT 😜

[@cemi_8945]

Nice video. I appreciate it. Here in my country, the Alpha 15 costs R$ 8000, 33% more expensive than the Mini (R$ 6000). Considering their differences in performance and prices, which one is the best value for the money? I'm not a pro driver neither a strong guy but I want something that will last years and years ahead.

[@Max__apex]

Get the Mini…… I would buy the Mini even in the UK. Alpha is not needed. Too much fighting and still not using full power. Mini is complete wheel and gives perfect strong Fast ffb

[@Maartwo]

The FOV police will come and get you! Haha screw those guys. Good video. Do you think the Mini would be a good enough upgrade from a CSL Elite? I asked my local distributor for the Mini and Alpha prices and with the GT1 wheel theres like a 500 usd difference. I know about "buy once, cry once" but I guess anything above 8NM would be enough for me... The question is in how much detail I'll be missing out on.

[@tkdmp5698]

500 is a lot i dont think its worth it how much does the mini costs? i assume the mini is 600+ and the alpha is 1100+ ? If i were in your position i would either buy the mini or look at another base like asetec,simucube,moza R16 but i dont think is 500 dollard better

[@Maartwo]

@@tkdmp5698 the mini + GT1 wheel is 1650 usd + 21% vat... It's quite expensive and I could get a used Fanatec CSL DD Pro for 800 USD but there's no official support from Fanatec and I'd rather risk more money but having official support from the official Simagic distributor here than be left to my own luck with a used Fanatec wheelbase.

[@Max__apex]

Honestly the detail is all there …. Clipping occurs when u hit Curb and the full power of the base is lower in that instant. But the force still come through with a strong hit but JUST not as violent. I would not get the gt1 wheel …. Too big and heavy. If u want a round wheel GTS is way more responsive and cheaper also haha. And then save up to get the Neo with the Alpha mini. I tried Iracing with 1nm force setting on my wheel and was so light and then I went to 8nm and then mini felt amazing and perfectly possible to use it and feel the power. But the mini goes up to 13nm and can feel everything and at clipping no useful information as the big hit can be seen and felt on the wheel and on screen. What do people expect to feel a kerb smash ?? … gain 0.2 second from the car jumping in the air over it as it clips the full violent movement !!

[@Max__apex]

Mini is £600 and Alpha is £900

[@bibik3829]

а какие настройки у тебя в Assetto Corsa Competizione?

[@Max__apex]

45% overall strength

[@semiijs]

weird calculation. if software shows 15nm max and its 18.8hm irl then why would u assume 12.4nm on app is the same as in real life? id say put it on 10nm on software, so it would be 12.4nm in life. 12.4nm on soft could be anything above that in life.

[@Max__apex]

Because I measured it manually like I did with my previous video and it correlated to 12.2NM ……. Look at my last video to see how I measured it

[@semiijs]

@@Max__apex did u measure ACTUAL alpha mini for preference ir just did an assumpiton? Also mini v1 and v3 power outputs may be different since they use different power bricks.

[@Max__apex]

@@semiijs I did everything perfectly. All with knowledge and intellect. My 18.8NM ALPHA has a 236w power and it’s enough for big power.

[@micofok730]

What version is the alpha? Whats the wattage of your alpha power supply?

[@Max__apex]

238w

[@kevinblythe2192]

@@Max__apex sounds like V3 - V1 was 252w I believe

[@easybreeze1]

Setting max nm just means it clips at that point, I'd suggest lowering the percentage so it comes down linear.

[@Max__apex]

You haven’t seen my previous video to see how I measure static force and that I correlated to 12.2nm in the settings on sim pro

[@gene_the_dev_42]

when you limit the base via Max Torque it will just cut off everything above, but the actual force scaling will be like if you had a 15nm base. It will not mimick the Alpha mini with these settings. In order to properly compare the feel between two bases, you should reduce the Force Feedback instead on Alpha.

[@Max__apex]

Lowering the scaling does not mimicking the Mini as the Mini can also be scaled so it clips a lot. But the limit is the maximum torque.

[@ArchOfficial]

Incorrect. 1.0 DI will be 1.0 DI. Changing the torque changes the amount of torque the base provides when DI is 1.0. There shouldn't be, all else equal in the driver and motor (Probably not entirely), any difference between a Mini at 10Nm and an Alpha at 10Nm. Force Feedback is a linear gain and it scales the DI output, same as changing the % in sims where gain is linear.

[@GregoryShtevensh]

All changed now. This wont do more than 10nm. People need to know that.. If you want to drive with around 13nm, buy the alpha 15nm base and turn it down to 13.5. You should only buy the mini, if a max torque of 10nm is okay for you.

[@Max__apex]

Wrong ….. I measured it at 13.8 nm

[@cater4anytink45]

So the latest version of the mini is rated at 10NM but it will go upto 13...

[@GregoryShtevensh]

@@cater4anytink45 you shouldn't be buying it expecting that though, that's my point. Too many "stories" of it feeling more like an R9 than R12 and then others saying it felt like an R12 kind of, but that the peaks were harsher on the R12. It may resist full lock at 13nm, it may even give ffb at 13nm for all I know, but to buy a 10nm advertised base, expecting 13nm is a mistake. And even if you say you've measured it, the best you can do is a crude measurement. There's no standardized method. All you can do is measure resistance in KGs, the distance from centre to the outer circumference, and use that to get a crude estimate of torque. Even then that ONLY tells you what its doing at full lock. I have an Alpha that does 15nm, and you can turn it down to 10 and feel the difference. Yet it will feel like your mini. And if I then turn mine up to 13nm, it WILL feel stronger. Like I said. Buy the mini if you know you'll be happy with 10nm... Anything extra is a bonus, only and is not guaranteed or advertised to be

[@GregoryShtevensh]

@@cater4anytink45 also, you probably are happy with 10nm. Because after knowing what it all feels like. Id say 99% of people are

[@Max__apex]

@@cater4anytink45 The Mini is 13nm holding and peaks are 17-18nm

[@Chambers805]

The Simagic EMI issues are insane though, I would warn people. Been two weeks with mine and haven't even been able to use it in my rig.

[@Max__apex]

I have never had EMI ….. have you grounded your rig to a radiator that is earthed ?? I have not and I still am okay

[@Tires4les]

Did you get it fixed?

[@peterenis4752]

Simple question.... Why did you not measure torque this time? 😅 You still make comments like it would be 13,5nm, but it is not anymore.

[@Max__apex]

It is 13.5 nm as was measured. I’m asking you personally what have you measured as your making claims ??

[@Arvidje]

@@Max__apex mini v3 is probably no 13nm anymore..

[@Max__apex]

@@Arvidje Mini is the same as before …. 13.5+ NM

[@Arvidje]

@@Max__apex ah that’s great

[@reviewforthetube6485]

I literally get on youtube and they show me yoyr videos ive watched so then i come here and comment hahs. They just keep reccomending it to me. But hey thats fine I enjot it. Im actually using 12nm on the ultimate so yeah haha. Im on the same page as you.

[@Max__apex]

lol

[@Max__apex]

Medium settings is better to be precise

[@reviewforthetube6485]

@@Max__apex whatever you want to call it. You know what I'm saying.

[@KiliansCreative]

LOL

[@Max__apex]

Your hands are fucked !! Been playing with the wrong thing with them ??

[@RADERFPV]

But the V3 mini only puts out 10nm. it's not like the V1 that could push 13nm that everyone shows in their yourube test videos. All yourubers seem to get the v1 base, like that famous test video that someone put out showing 13nm with iracing. Forget his name, but he's super popular. That video is no longer relevant with the v3 mini.

[@RADERFPV]

Dan Suzuki, that's the guy. That video no longer holds weight.

[@Max__apex]

I measured v3 and it was 13.8nm. Stop spreading wrong info when I measured one at that strength

[@RADERFPV]

​@Max__apex Didn't know you had the v3, so sorry your magesty. Geeze.

[@Kurnazify]

SIMAGIC BEST IN SLOT

[@Max__apex]

Set it so that maximum force is 13.5nm ….. it clips when it’s above that value. Simpro should have set it to 12.2Nm in the software not 12.4. Later on I set it to 11.1nm in software and still it felt great to drive with good hit on the bumps. Mini has plenty of power and detail. If you’re slow then please DONT BE making excuses and saying the dwta is not there. It’s all there. Your turning and braking is because your not understanding the how cars behave and not getting rotation and millions of other things. It 100% is not the MINI that holding anyone back. Mini is good power. More top end hit is available but doesn’t really do much apart from : “Oh fcuk that was hard kick” and “Fcuk my fingers and hands are in spasm from holding it so tight and fatigued after 1 laps of NORDS”

[@scousesimracer]

Yo bro it’s YooMrWhiteSmurf I have upgraded to pc and mini what’s your discord we need to get back on track

[@Max__apex]

My discord is Omer_ahmed7 Or Omer_ahmed