On The Melian Dialogue

In which John discusses The Melian Dialogue, a story of Ancient Greece, the Peloponnesian War, the city-state of Athens, the island of Melos, Thucydides, and 21st century human life.
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[@RangaBonsai]

Isn't it amazing how a dialogue centuries old still reverberates so strongly in modern times, despite the technological feats that we have achieved, and the civilisations we have developed, some nature of power, and humanity remains unchanged. It's trivial when you think about it. Thank you for the meaningful Melian inspired video! see you next week.

[@elektrotehnik94]

What he said (I had to

[@czdaniel1]

Thucydides work is a sophisticatedly composed masterpiece that is TIMELESS in every sense. When I first heard a lecture on his _Sicilian Expedition_ [Athens invaded Sicily] and the description of the arguments & logic used to drum up support and justify the invasion...IT'S ALMOST A PERFECT RETELLING of the 2003 Iraq invasion...Like Seriously, right down to relationships of the instigators! Bush41 & Bush43 lines up with Pericles & Alcibiades except Bush is an actual Son, while Alcibiades was raised as a son in Pericles's house and are family, but not genetic father/son. It's shockingly repetative for 2,400 years seperated between them.

[@Treysorable]

@@czdaniel1 Thank you for drawing these parallels. I was drowning in comments concerning his haircut.

[@apusingh1967]

started well but did not end anywhere. The system is all about money and power.. both are interchangeable.

[@zahidkhan5733]

we learned this dialogue in a crummy schoolhouse in 1960's Pakistani village, yet none of my children who all graduated from American IVY league schools were taught this in high school or college, wonder why your nations no longer teach your great history.

[@michaelflattery2298]

"Human life is not a zero-sum game." I can think of quite a few people who could do with internalizing this.

[@lonestarr1490]

There is a German song called "Lied 1 - Stück vom Himmel" (= "Song 1 - Piece of Heaven/Sky" (it's the same word in German), kzbin.info/www/bejne/bH-teIqshM6nlZo ) from a famous singer/songwriter (Herbert Grönemeyer - you've maybe heard his song for the Football World Cup of 2006 "Zeit, dass sich was dreht" ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpuXqKRsfrZ8m6s )) and the last few lines of it make me think ever since. They go (English below; translated by myself): "es gibt keinen Feind, es gibt keinen Sieg nichts kann niemand allein wer hat sein Leben verdient es gibt genug für alle es gibt viel schnelles Geld wir haben raue Mengen und wir teilen diese Welt und wir stehen in der Pflicht die Erde ist freundlich, warum wir eigentlich nicht? sie ist freundlich, warum wir eigentlich nicht?" / "There is no enemy, there is no victory nothing can be done by no one alone who has deserved his life there is enough for everyone there is much quick money we got massive quantities and we share this world We're in duty The earth is pleasant why aren't we? She is pleasant why aren't we?"

[@surrealducks]

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[@oppie2363]

I can think of ones who's in a very important elected office at the moment.

[@pauldee1577]

"They're taking our jobs!!!" comes to mind.

[@moro292]

Trump?

[@jimntom1]

Powerful stuff John....... and glad you got that hair cut you needed.

[@vlogbrothers]

I even made an appointment for the next one! :) -John

[@TheMrAshley2010]

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[@divyavarunkar4360]

He’s so proud about making that appointment.

[@carly7958]

I remember hearing John quote this in the pod too. Feels like the pod is where several video ideas originate, or at the very least, begin to be verbalised and thought through out loud

[@vlogbrothers]

Definitely! Talking with Hank always gets me thinking about stuff... -John

[@thatsathingrebekah]

I was thinking this too. It's like watching vlogbrothers videos gives me deja vu. But like...a deeper and more insightful deja vu.

[@carly7958]

@@thatsathingrebekah +

[@elektrotehnik94]

What is "in the pod"? Can anyone help me out, would be much appreciated :D thanks in advance

[@carly7958]

Elektrotehnik the podcast Hank and John do, called Dear Hank and John :)

[@marniekarger5258]

Or, as Paul Wellstone said, "We all do better when we all do better."

[@darinsingleton3553]

Got a thumbs up from me just for knowing who Paul Wellstone was. A great man. A great loss.

[@elgracko]

A rising tide lifts all ships?

[@kathleenthompson8134]

@@elgracko I was just thinking of that one myself :)

[@sominboy2757]

You must be a fellow minnesotan

[@name-fv4du]

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[@CJonestheSteam72]

John, I trust your year off from social media does not include KZbin? This is my highlight of Tuesday

[@vlogbrothers]

Correct. I'll still be uploading vlogbrothers videos, and I'll also be hosting some crash course. -John

[@elonmush4793]

@@vlogbrothers One year off? Wow, I'd love to see a video of you showing your precautions. Because I tried this before and it lasted maybe a week. Clearly you must have a better strategy or stronger will power.

[@ludovic420]

@@vlogbrothers Thank you! We miss seeing you on crash course!

[@thewinterizzy]

I think part of the problem recently is how extreme everything is... You’re either for or against something. It’s me vs. you. Us vs. them. We as a society (at least what it feels like to me in America) have practically made having complex perspectives or fluctuating/growing opinions a bad thing, implying we’re wishy washy or won’t take a stand for/against something. It’s okay to learn and grow and help others. 💛

[@michaelflattery2298]

As a foreigner who lived in the US for a while, one of the things I observed that I found very frustrating wasn't so much that people were for or against something so much as it was considered rude or inappropriate to analyse something - to actually talk about what it meant. I remember an occasion where someone said something to a friend of mine from Spain that was really awful and hurtful (I'd rather not restate it on account of the content). All of our friends rallied behind her to tell this guy off, but they were horrified when she and I started arguing with him and explaining why he was being a... let's go with so-and-so. There was definitely a taboo on discussing anything that made people uncomfortable to be introspective about - the only permitted expression was surface level, yea or nay type stuff. EDIT: I'm Irish and arguing over the dinner table about religion, politics and social issues is an important pastime. I remember a survey done that found Irish people didn't consider a relationship healthy unless there was at least a big argument once a week.

[@ItsMeTheSteph]

I like this perspective. I think it’s healthier to have a discussion. As an American, I can see why it’s taboo to have discussions. It isn’t so much the discussion, it’s the judgement that comes from it. It feels like there is a finality of having the discussion to prove “right” and “wrong”. Then whomever comes out on top consistently judges, becomes condescending, and intimidating, even going so far as to insinuate or directly call the person in the “wrong” stupid/an idiot. It’s bothersome. Politically, you see the happen to an extreme degree. We forget that life isn’t black and white, it is quite often in the gray. Have apposing opinions is ok, it’s just a different perspective that is based on upbringing and personal experience. One isn’t considered more superior over the other.

[@lonestarr1490]

@@ItsMeTheSteph Damn, America appears to be way more down the drain than I ever imagined. Discussions are bad because one side could end up making the better points? And then they (have to?) act like jerks about that? What. the. hell.

[@ciaranpmryan]

As John has said himself many times, there is no us or them, there is only us. Edit: paraphrasing of course.

[@abhaysharma9317]

I think some of the people go extreme just to have some fun in short term but it really leaves some long lasting effects, People should be highly conscious while addressing their thoughts and should know if they are even theirs or just falling under a propaganda which is preventing them to see the bigger picture which can solve the chaos.

[@Mehrnooshb]

Finally got that haircut!

[@magnuspeacock5857]

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[@tracylee55]

He needs to wear it just a little longer. It's too short.

[@jessv2572]

Theliterarykid +

[@marybach9925]

Theliterarykid a legend

[@TrainmasterGT]

What we REALLY need is the return of “The Puff!”

[@tehb357]

But DID you schedule your next haircut???

[@vlogbrothers]

I ddi! -John

[@purplepepper2503]

Hunter Paul 😂

[@ephemeraldivinity]

@@vlogbrothers Congrats John!

[@imrustyokay]

@@vlogbrothers you Ddi?

[@munjee2]

@@vlogbrothers you did? , who are you?

[@sdfghjksdfgh673]

Bought my copy of An Absolutely Remarkable Thing today. Still somewhat shaken about baby Hank writing a novel.

[@elisecode2212]

mine just came at the library! i'm forcing myself to work on an assignment before starting.

[@luciabee]

Sometimes I'm just amazed that these videos are always four minutes long or shorter. You say so much so clearly in so little time. It's like when beauty pageant contestants have 30 seconds to answer complex questions and they nail it

[@gabby4558]

Thank you, John (and Hank), for vlogbrothers videos that make me believe in KZbin as an educational platform!

[@SamanthaBurger]

I just handed in a thesis paper for my political philosophy class on the concepts of Liberty and Equality. Specifically, looking at if they are compatible ideals or conversely, contradictory ideals. (I settled on a balanced complementary). This video is so aptly timed! Thanks John for even more to ponder :)

[@LadyAneh]

Sam I don’t think a society can be both entirely free and entirely equal in rights. Having said that, I would take the human rights any day.

[@SamanthaBurger]

@@LadyAneh I agree. Truly in their extremes neither are wholly desirable or feasible. Finding a balance that promotes liberty while maintaining (at minimum) equality under the law is essential in a truly democratic society.

[@lonestarr1490]

@@LadyAneh Depends on your definition of liberty, I would say. Entire freedom is not the same as entire arbitrariness (at least in my view).

[@LadyAneh]

Lone Starr I mean entire freedom, arbitrariness included. (As in you can do and pursue what you like. Inevitably, someone will get the short end of the stick in that scenario. Some humans still believe in the finite pie, and that they cannot feel free unless there are people that have less human rights than they do.) They can only quantify what they have by what others don’t, in other words.

[@SamanthaBurger]

@@lonestarr1490 the two overarching generally accepted forms of Liberty are negative and positive liberty (although there are indeed many different iterations depending on which major thinker you consult). These generally break down to the negative conception being "freedom from" interference or coercion of others, while the positive conception is considered to be "freedom to become", to achieve self- mastery. Both have value, but both also have critics. The difference mainly being that most* conservative or libertarians would argue that negative liberty alone is true liberty. I'd argue that both are important. *Edit

[@williamcfox]

The human quest for power makes more sense when you explore Thucydides. The Athenian envoys explain at Sparta that their empire was derived first out of *fear* . When the Persians threatened all city-states, it was the terrified Athenians that banded the region together to resist. Only later did they find the glory and profit of empire, building what we see in the Melián dialogue. When you see power as a means of coping with fear, the argument is more compelling.

[@haydengobron3485]

Wow. This has completely changed my outlook on this. My teacher has basically been telling us that Athens was like a bully here and that they were being mean but in actuality, they were trying to protect greece

[@anhleroy]

You can apply Terror Management theory to almost everything, including global climate change, but it makes for bad historical analysis

[@babrdwod7464]

Fear is and has been used as a key tool to achieve grand objectives.

[@madaranotsoanonymousnowuch1539]

@@haydengobron3485 I don't think thats what the guy is saying tbh. It's more like, after having the power to cope with their fear, Athens increased its power, once in power they tasted the glory and profit of having an empire, turning into the people that would make the Melian dialogue. Maybe it was their understanding of their own condition that caused them to say what they did. Idk tbh, thats just what I got :p

[@JakeBroe]

"This is not a law that we made ourselves, nor were we the first to act upon it when it was made. We found it already in existence, and we shall leave it to exist for ever among those who come after us. We are merely acting in accordance with it, and we know that you or anybody else with the same power as ours would be acting in precisely the same way."

[@aprilmeadows4151]

Wow. I wish more people understood that "more for me does not necessarily mean less for you."

[@wess9900]

immediately below this on my feed is "we will all go together when we go" by Tom Lehrer.

[@vlogbrothers]

Tom Lehrer is such a good reminder that fifty years ago we were also terrified of our existence and everything was crazy and terrifying. -John

[@thomasbuckley6999]

@@vlogbrothers Everything is still crazy and terrifying. In 1960, Tom Lehrer wrote pollution, a song about the fear that the rapidly industrialized world would consume and pollute everything. Now, we're worried about the impacts of climate change and sea level rise. But, I think the key thing to remember is that two years after pollution was written, congress passed the clean air act which was the first major government action to try and reduce pollution. Within the decade, the epa was created and the clean water act signed. So now, we are scared of the same things but, I think the context of some of Tom Lehrer's life provides reason to believe we can do the same thing we did 50 years ago.

[@thomasbuckley6999]

Also, " see the halibuts and the sturgeon being wiped out by detergents" is absolutely the best rhyme in any song ever.

[@wess9900]

@@vlogbrothers on the other hand, it also reminds us that when we thought the world was going to end, we still managed to be funny and make fun of ourselves (and the athenians--hi Oedipus rex). Then again, he also burnt himself out on his own humor, so who even knows what it means.

[@Yurothehotot]

The sooner the better I say!

[@brwneyedgirlx19]

I almost commented "THIS. IS. SPARTA." as soon as John said "Sparta" but after finishing the video it doesn't feel particularly appropriate. Either way, thanks for making me think today, John.

[@AllieYourAlly]

I never knew the context of the quote “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must” before! Hopefully we can grow past that as a species soon but it doesn’t seem like we have yet.

[@kentamitchell]

It has been 2,436 years since the destruction of Melos, so don't hold your breath.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

The only way we can do it is for making our self un human .this drive's its also a drive that exist in every living thing..thats why im 100% serten that if we meet alian life and they didn't do major genetic engineering on them self they will be very similar to us.thats just how evolution goes..animels that go full hippy wont survive for long

[@gtassa01]

Grow past it as a species? That's so idiotic I can't even begin to explain why it's stupid.

[@yamiscape]

@@gtassa01Why do you think what he said is stupid?

[@Vixielicious]

I studied the melian dialogue at undergrad International politics. It's used as a key piece of literature to demonstrate realism, which is the dominant school of thought in security studies, geopolitical forecasting, and intelligence. I have complex thoughts on the matter which mostly go along the lines of "Well yes but I don't like it, but I don't see any other likely or safe way of approaching security." It was nostalgic to hear you talk about it!

[@RozuruTheShinigami]

I genuinely love how Hank and you put things into words. Because I suck at expressing my thoughts, they even get a bit forgotten. You remind me of all I believe in , and how humanity has grown and could keep getting better, and all the reasons why I love this communnity. I wish everyone saw the world the way you do.

[@yosoyysoyyo]

Dang, I don't even have anything else to add this time except that you continue to be incredibly eloquent. Like I know it's scripted and all but it's still impressive. Thank you for delivering important messages in beautiful language.

[@vedanttalreja1043]

Honestly these are my favorite kind of John videos

[@BrickMaster122]

Wow! What a thought provoking topic! “More for me does not necessarily mean less for you.”

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

It's honestly cool how, over the years of watching Vlogbrothers, particularly through some of my formative years, I actually find my worldview has changed for the better because of them. So thank you John and Hank for always being honest and forthright about your vision of progress in the world, I think it has made a difference.

[@WernerEdgar]

A very succinct comment on how many view the world today - though I would argue not many of your viewers - there is no zero sum game when looking at human flourishing... the many past revolutions like the industrial & technological prove that.

[@moiradarling97]

Saving this to my “videos that matter” section on my channel.

[@user-zr8ui9sn5d]

Oh man, I saved your "videos that matter" section onto MY channel. Thank you!! (hope thats okay)

[@moiradarling97]

Brooke Simon oh my god yes. I love this

[@margolikesbees]

I came here from the back of one of your books, and I'm glad I did. In my opinion, I think that this is one of the best channels on KZbin. Great job man, I applaud you.

[@kayperkins562]

When you think about it, we all live together in one big Earth-sized home, and a house divided cannot stand.

[@andreajohnson6968]

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[@GretaZewe]

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[@samirasaad5363]

Well over a year later and I still consistently find myself returning to this video. I find great comfort and anxiety in these ideas.

[@violablaire6499]

Always renewing hope in humanity, you're like the professor x of nerdfighteria

[@itsnerdo]

It’s so cool that John and Hank dialogue with people in comments, even though they’re big authors and KZbin phenomena. Thanks for showing us how important this community is to you both ❤️

[@vlogbrothers]

That's very kind of you to say! :) -John

[@lilliannagreco9136]

Can you tell my sort of friend Dylan I want to fall in Nerdfighter like with him?

[@vlogbrothers]

I'll just heart this comment and you can link him to the video and maybe he'll see it WE'LL LEAVE IT IN THE HANDS OF KZbin'S COMMENT ALGORITHM LILLIANNA THE ALGORITHM NEVER FAILS. -John

[@rosefragment9961]

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[@carly7958]

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[@OsofoGriot]

+ algorithm boooost

[@carlaafonso6194]

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[@nowayhoeway]

Every Tuesdays I’m always learning something new and discovering ideas I didn’t know I could discover. Thanks John

[@DragonFire381]

Really makes me wish I'd had the chance to learn more about Greek & Roman culture in school. This is a strong (and a little too real) comparison to current events... I do appreciate the positivity though!

[@LadyAneh]

Nicolette There are plenty of books out there. Try SPQR. Yes, that’s the name of the book. It’s about Ancient Rome.

[@ciaphascyne8866]

i seriously love you guys. a love for science, an appreciation for history, and a deep understanding of that most holy of secrets: no man is an island.

[@mic982]

Since first reading Thucydides' history of the war many years ago I'm still struck by the translator's summation (Sir Richard Livingstone) where he wrote of this famous debate: "...here is Power, acknowledging no limits except itself, denying any meaning to religion, justice and pity - a cold cruelty, not of passion but of the intellect, the nearest thing to the devil that human nature can achieve." Indeed; and precisely why this subject is still important to humanity today.

[@TenThousandDoors]

Eeeek!! It's been 9.5 years, but I FINALLY got a Pizza John shirt! I've wanted one since I was 15 and it came in the mail today and I AM SO EXCITED OHMYGOODNESS!

[@annalores7454]

This just helped me impress my professor during my oral exam of international relations. Thank you, John.

[@kmr15mhs]

This video and these thoughts are so important. John, thank you.

[@Kermoedi77]

Thank you for all that you do. You are a force for good in the world and I’m grateful for that. I feel like this four minute video should be mandatory viewing for all in public service.

[@philiptouw3623]

Early! I wonder what incredibly relevant and hard hitting metaphor John will make today! Also I don't mean to make a trivial comment, but the red scarf in the background is sideways, and twisted, and I hope it has been/gets fixed.

[@Mystik3eb]

Perfection. And now I know about "History of the Peloponnesian War" and have ANOTHER book to add to my list. Thanks John.

[@elisecode2212]

i'm constantly impressed by your intelligence and way of thinking, john.

[@dreamweaver1113]

What a perfectly timed video, with a perfect message of solidarity and justice-seeking. Thank you.

[@rodericklandreth6075]

Love the video- I feel like a developed civilization should be able to stray from the 'weak suffering what they must' because of the 'strong doing what they can.' People with a voice like the Green Brothers, who shine a light on these analogies in the modern day, give me hope that the strong are starting to independently undermine that Athenian way of thinking without the prompting that politicians receive and *must* cultivate to succeed.

[@NateandNoahTryLife]

I think weak is often times a misnomer... Refugees, victims of violence and people with horrible diseases: these people are often the strongest. They keep living in spite of immense odds against them. It’s important to recognize the efforts of those who have to work 10 times as hard as we do just to exist.

[@robertbaillargeon3683]

Dude, I just saw your comment at the top of Patrick (H) Willems new video and now you're here too.

[@NateandNoahTryLife]

Robert Baillargeon I love watching videos as much as I love making them :) Vlogbrothers and Patrick are two of my favorite channels They always give me something to think about

[@yosoyysoyyo]

I think in this context, """weak""" is more meant as "disenfranchised by the structures of power which they find themselves in through no fault of their own". Good point, though, it's important to remember.

[@kevinwells9751]

Yeah, there is certainly an important difference between internal strength (something many refugees and victims have as you point out) and institutional strength (something that they inherently lack). An example on the other side of things (and the other side of the refugee situation) is Trump, who wields incredible institutional power, but I would argue lacks much internal strength.

[@Mayhemzz]

I agree. I think "weak" is the wrong word to be used in this context. The Melian's were anything but weak to stand up to their beliefs of peace when surrounded by war, just like everyone you mentioned is the absolute farthest from weak. Most of us can't even comprehend the strength it takes to go through what these people are.

[@meggangrist2285]

Thank you for using BCE! One of my profs told me this was the new norm but you are the first person I have heard use that since finishing that class.

[@nadiahcooper]

Loved learning about this in my international politics course! Definitely not discussed enough

[@mariazinchenko6984]

As a Ukrainian, I thank you for a relevant metaphor. It sucks that the history repeats itself, but I hope one day we as humans will be better. DFTBA

[@Karishma_Unspecified]

Hey, I hope you're holding up okay right now...

[@mariazinchenko6984]

@@Karishma_Unspecified I am! My parents are as well! Helping one of my friends to get to Germany! Thank you for your kindness, stranger. Wherever you are, if you can, let your government know that you don't support war and aggression. We will get through this together :) dftba

[@MisterMonsieur]

@@mariazinchenko6984 The Melian Dialogue was the first thing I thought of when I heard Zelenskyy's ignorant, vain rhetoric. It was a crime against Ukraine for him to send children and the elderly to fight an advanced professional army; to say nothing of the actual war crimes of placing military installations among Ukraine's civilian population. And for what? The "right" to join NATO? Joining NATO would not lift you up from being the second-poorest country in Europe. But I suppose that's what you get when you elect a comedian for a president.

[@supernovaversion3.05]

Too bad, you got a jester instead of a prime minister.

[@jcavs9847]

@@MisterMonsieur How can you be so vile as to accuse a nation being invaded by a stronger power purely for imperialistic reasons of annexation and cultural erasure as being in the wrong...? Who sent their own country's children accross borders first? (hint: it was in 2014) If you see it happening to other countries (as it did to georgia...) would you not be justified in wanting to prepare and defend yourself? Of course you're gonna say it was all a great scheme manufactured by the CIA or something, after all you're just a russian bot and apologist for a fascist regime

[@chia-yuliang7676]

Glad to find your sharing of your thought on the Melian Diaolgue. I find it particular interesting that you used the analogy of plants turning to the Sun. If you are interested, Simone Weil also used that analogy in her discussion on resistance and oppression, where she also cited the Athenians' words. However, she thought the that plants turning to the Sun is exactly the opposite of what Athenians did - she equated Athenian's doctrine in this dialogue with gravity, which is exactly what the Sun empowers the plants to resist and stretch upward. That said, I agree with your reflection on human nature, which is needed in today's world.

[@TheAmazingTNT]

I was studying this topic a few weeks ago for a module on Classical Greece, but for the whole of the video I had the Melian Dialogue confused with the Mytilenian Debate. It is a very similar scenario to the one John described. The city of Mytilene on the island of Lesbos rebelled against Athens, as one of the few still independent members of the Delian League, after refusing to be folded into the Athenian Empire. After the rebellion was put down, Athens ordered all the men executed, and all women and children sold into slavery. Exactly like Melos. However, the day after, everyone felt really guilty and decided they had overreacted. They sent another messenger chasing after the first, trying to stop the massacre. Luckily the second messenger managed to catch up with the first and the massacre was not carried out. The events in Mytilene took place a decade before the Siege of Melos. Those were ten years of fighting in the biggest war of the Hellenic World up until that point. Obviously what the Athenians did at Melos was horrifying, but it is worth being aware that the longer wars drag on the more desperate and callous people can become

[@dkSilo]

I had thoughts like this today about institutions that hinder exactly cooperation by claiming sole ownership of understanding how the world came to be and has to work. I'm crying right now, because your words resonate so much with me and because in 2500 years we've come ... just tip toe steps forward (at least that's what I see). I want to think we are not the greedy species, looking out for ourselves first (without recognizing that helping everyone helps each one, including our individual self), but there seem oh so many that do. "What can men do against such reckless hate?" Thanks for being a voice of reason. Ever there to remind us, that we can be good. Each and everyone of us. Thanks for being awesome.

[@madeleinejayne2838]

dear john, thanks for being awesome. Im not sure ive ever watched one of your videos where i didnt either agree with you, or your perspective changed my mind. I am truly grateful that you choose to share your opinions with the world. also nice hair

[@CRBungalow]

This video came out at the perfect time for me today, I can use the quote in my homework!! thanks, John!

[@alexandriaedwards10]

Thank you for this thought provoking video. It both mourns me and gives me hope.

[@lemondrizzlecake7766]

Thank you John. I needed to hear this right now.

[@matevzvidovic6708]

This was philosophical in a way I needed right now, thanks

[@rhianaeverest0808]

As someone currently taking international law and having learned a lot about Just War Theory recently, this is so fascinating. The Melian dialogue has been brought up a lot and it's really cool to hear your thoughts on some of those same ideas applied to today's world. So hey, thanks.

[@spencerfarrow2963]

Excellent content. I’m reminded again why I’ve subscribed to @vlogbrothers

[@nigelblack2138]

Nice one John.Hope you do more book reviews and recomendations.

[@hotdrippyglass]

"The Strong Do What They Can And The Weak Do What They Must." That phrase along with "Human Life Is Not A Zero Sum" are the truest phrases I have heard in my 62 years. They only need to be more closely associated with the idea that "A Wise Man Will Comfort The Afflicted and Afflict The Comfortable".

[@jorgec98]

Fantastic video, John. Thanks

[@NotWinter]

Love you John! You always brighten my day. :)

[@jenniferkaraskiewicz3703]

You’re a good egg. You make me feel better about people in general

[@DimitriosDenton]

"Those with the greatest power, protect those without. That's my message to the world." ~Charles Xavier

[@brookew2709]

profound and good. thank you for this video, John.

[@ciaranpmryan]

John’s best video. Ever.

[@cheyennemarie7075]

As a student of International Relations and Security, I feel like the Melian Dialogue is following me lol. It’s in my classes, and now in my subscription feed! We discuss it in respect to states rather than individuals, and I think it makes a lot more sense that way. Individuals aren’t necessarily as concerned with individual power and security as states are. I’m not sure how this fits in with the narrative of this video, but I think it’s important in understanding the Melian dialogue. Also, this video kinda makes it seem like the Peloponnesian War was between the Athenians and the Melians, but disregards Sparta, who ultimately won the Pelopennesian Wars and weren’t exactly known to pass up a good opportunity to conquer land and “do what they can”

[@cheyennemarie7075]

I recognize that this comment is pretty much the definition of getting lost in the weeds lol. It’s a great sentiment in the video, I’m just not convinced the Pelopoennisan Wars and the Melian Dialogue are the best jumping off points for it

[@abhaysharma9317]

This year has been such a great year, millions of people have escaped poverty, fewer people have died from premature death compared to any year throughout the human history, And personally I have learned the most thing this year than probably from my whole life discovered some amazing people and now I am very hopeful for even a more better and prosperous future for us all.

[@snowyyyyyyyyyyyyy]

this video (like most vlogbrothers videos tbh) had perfect timing. i just had a presentation on us imperialism, which is a very literal example of the melian dialogue. anyways, to what i was actually going to say about the video: for a long time, life WAS a zero sum game. there was finite land on the earth so to be more powerful you needed to control more land. but that's not really the case in modern times, and i think we're still trying to get used to that. there isn't a finite amount of malaria treatments or a finite amount of safe hospitals or a finite amount of schools we can have. and all of those make the whole world stronger. just because i have a good education doesn't mean that you don't and it doesn't make the education meaningless. if i have access to healthcare it shouldn't mean that you don't, we should both be healthy. i think it's hard to get out of this mindset (as a society) because "if i have more you have less" has been the way the world worked for a very long time.

[@ab-th7lj]

ahh yes my old friend, the median dialogue! i literally got so excited when i saw this in my subscriptions

[@kellahanna-wayne4191]

John, I really appreciate the work that you do, your nuanced view of your things, and your tendency to look at current events in terms of the really really big picture. I recently listened to the episode of the Hilarious World of Depression podcast that you were in. Of all the episodes I listened to, you were the only one I heard who *stopped* writing/creating when things got bad, rather than diving deeper into your work to hide from your problems, or using your writing as an outlet for your feelings (though by looking at Turtles All the Way Down, I'm guessing you've done that too). As a person that's been struggling deeply with my mental health for the last 10 months, I know I'm not alone in that, but I do feel alone in the experience of being a writer who cannot write for that length of time too. I was wondering if you'd do a video on the experience of what it was like, as an author, to not write for several years? I know you rarely discuss your mental health in detail on vlogbrothers, and perhaps you wouldn't have to in order to talk about how you coped with the effect of not writing on your identity and sense of self-worth. Everyone asks writers to talk about how they manifest writing. I want to know, how do you cope when you can't?

[@kates4911]

that quote is the ancient equivalent of "There is no good or evil, only power and those too weak to pursue it"

[@andreacarter5143]

Spiderman was helpful in getting my primary school students to understand power dynamics. After a student made the off-hand comment that "what's the point of power if you don't use it to get what you want?" we had a conversation that could basically be summarised as 'with great power comes great responsibility'. Power doesn't have to mean violence. Power must equal kindness.

[@bitameah7745]

So beautifully put.

[@haleyjones7694]

this is what drives me crazy about the “it doesn’t directly effect me so it doesn’t matter” argument. it does directly effect you because you live in a less good world when other people are disadvantaged.

[@CybernautZero]

Everyone and everything is connected. Some of the so called "most intelligent" are unable to see that. We are all in this together.

[@landit2588]

Happy I found this page👍🏻

[@sammit1548]

As a classical history/philosophy nerd, I got wayyyyy too excited when I saw this title. Highly recommend Thucydides' History, definitely has some eternal themes that make you think.

[@Emzjellybeanz]

"human life is not a zero-sum game" Please can I have this on a tshirt

[@andreajohnson6968]

I'd probably buy it.

[@audreyneal6168]

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[@cynthialivingston4849]

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[@MartyredMuse]

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[@adrianwalker3830]

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[@Nhoj31neirbo47]

“Blessed are the meek, (egoless), for they shall inherit the Earth.” Power in the negative sense is acquired by imposing one’s will upon another. This is done to fulfill the desires of the ego, which is constrained by ignorance and limitations. Desire leads to frustration, which ultimately ends in destruction. As humanity evolves inwardly and leaves it’s animalistic tendencies behind, more people will exhibit selfless behavior and those who greedily seek fame, fortune and power will be increasingly shunned, thus limiting their ability to dominate others.

[@sandylt8124]

Really liked how you presented this, esp. the tone and the pace. All your other videos make me dizzy.

[@jamu8060]

Very insightful. Thank you John :)

[@johnchessant3012]

Yanis Varoufakis's book, "And the Weak Suffer what they Must?", is a great read on global economics and the Greek financial crisis.

[@JanielDavidAlfaros]

The universe is full of cold, hard facts...and this is one of them: Nature always will award cruelty with power.

[@switchingsnitches]

i’ve been subscribed to you guys for years, since i was an early teen, but the last couple years i faded away from the this channel caught up in a million other interests. a few weeks ago something sparked my interest in a video and i then spent a few hours going back and watch a bunch that i had missed these past couple years. i’m still surprised and delighted every new video i watch now by how you guys make me feel so grounded. each video makes me feel like a light bulb went on in my head as a little bit of the world clinked into understanding. you guys constantly offer interesting and companionate and refreshing takes on the world that coming back and re-experiences your mindsets feels like “chicken soup for the soul” lol. i just want to thank you guys for still being the positive and inspiring sources that i remember helping me through high school. thanks for still being a source that makes me feel like my grip on the world has gotten a little stronger. i’m so glad you guys exist! 💙

[@GCDzn]

This is super interesting. I study International Relations at uni, and the Melian Dialogue has had a huge influence on IR theory, particularly Realism (which claims that a combination of human nature and power dynamics determines pretty much all state behaviour). Always interesting seeing this sorta thing referenced elsewhere.

[@rozinamouz9286]

Greek nerdfighter here being very happy:) Thanks John

[@stefanhagens671]

That's really powerful. Well said John!

[@GuilhermeHarrison]

My favourite type of video streets ahead!

[@corinneb9790]

Great topic. Very interesting comparison to way back then and now. I don’t want to suffer what I must.

[@spriddlez]

When you said that quote my first thought was a line from Dave Chappelle's performance The Bird Revelation: "We should forgive the ones of us that are weaker and support the ones of us that are stronger." Basically I interpreted it as "The stronger of us will fight as best they can for all, while the weaker of just simply hang on and do their best while thy wait for change to happen." This of course is referring only to those seeking changes (not those trying to maintain the status quo). That sentences is sort of a wonderfully open to interpretation depending how you hear it.

[@robertjackson2700]

Well spoken as usual, sir.

[@johnvillaraza9815]

great take! thank you for sharing!

[@sjhsoccer]

Woe, I'm literally working on a production of Trojan Women, a play written by Euripides in protest of this event. This is such an important video, and the timing could not have been more perfect for me.

[@Niklback1]

I used to watch on repeat your crash course history video about this

[@fd6793]

This was my first college revelation freshman year. I love the History of the Peloponnesian War.

[@drmodestoesq]

You must not be Melian.

[@wolfferoni]

For the longest time I thought the title was 'On The Delian League' . Learnt about it in ancient history in high school. Didn't even realise I remembered that at all.

[@lapillity]

my name is melia and i had to do a double take when i saw the title of the video lol. i agree with you though, forcing the weak to suffer what they must ultimately doesn't benefit anybody in the long run

[@jacksonhughes9168]

This is even more political than it initially seems, it reminds me alot if the foreign policy concepts of Realism vs. Liberal Hegemony. Realists, like Nixon, and Trump, value relative gains, while Liberal Hegemonists, like most other modern presidents, value humanities absolute gains. Realism just isn't logically consistent with the world we live in.

[@vlogbrothers]

I agree. I understand why realism still has a lot of sway in some academic circles, but I think valuing absolute gains over relative gains is obviously the better way forward. -John

[@armorsmith43]

vlogbrothers my favorite university class, Causes and Prevention of War, taught the Realist model alongside many others including Structural Realism which looks at the electoral and power-struggle incentives inside states and (to oversimplify) says: The Strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Lets design systems and norms which compel the strong to protect the weak. But hard things are hard and problems are complex. See: Benghazi.

[@blue-pi2kt]

Is the issue here centred around not what is right as opposed to what is optimal strategically, given known information for the current order? I find it very appealing to set a footing which gears us towards a more prosperous and highly interconnected world but in such a set of outcomes, how can a Nation-State in the G7 not take it’s strategically optimal path?

[@elektrotehnik94]

* following this thread in great anticipation of the debate *