On Trial : Admiral Leyton - Justified Treason?

What's up Lore Masters,
Was Admiral Leyton Justified in his treason attempts? Let's break it down..
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[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Funny thing about Sisko’s dad: he’s actually a disgraced admiral who was trying to destroy the Khittomer Accords. Take that as you will.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Admiral Cartwright. And Odo was Colonel West, the guy who tried to shoot the Federation President.

[@himwhoisnottobenamed5427]

@@BioGoji-zm5ph “This ain’t Klingon blood baby.” -Worf’s Grand Daddy

[@Ranadinn]

I like to think after the TNG episode with the aliens taking over the Federation, that they did put someone in charge of keeping an eye on questionable transfers, and possible power brokerage. Unfortunately the one they assigned it to was Admiral Leyton.

[@tbeller80]

Actually, it was Admiral Sattee who we are told was ultimately responsible for cleaning out that conspiracy - the woman who ultimately started witch hunts.

[@tompatterson4316]

The reason Star Fleet has so much power is something I learned in Political Science. That is what people really want from government. That is to be safe & live comfortably doing something they like as work. We learn in TNG that Star Fleet had been maintaining the peace for decade starting sometime between the end of Undiscovered Country & the Borg threat. Starr Fleet was even able to handle the Borg. In this time there were only minor conflicts mainly on the borders. As a result the people totally trusted Star Fleet too much & stopped questioning Star Fleet command

[@iona2225]

Government is good, stable government is good, a government that can provide a properous and protected nation with all the before mentioned aspects is even better! But that, by no means, should make anyone trust the government, their is nothing more ingenious then that little spark of paranoia to those in power.

[@ironstarofmordian7098]

@@iona2225 precisely. Trust I. Government, just as much as chaos, leads to a totalitarian state.

[@freezetasticvoyage19]

James Leyton is lucky his cousin William Hague didn't depose him.

[@Wyrmshadow]

his agent double booked him that week.

[@FascistPastry]

If he had John Sheridan backing him up Hague may have done a little better.

[@ignitetheinferno1858]

The thing is that Leyton did understand that by its very nature, Starfleet could never win a war against the Dominion if it had to fight alone. We saw that with the Borg threat, Starfleet went so far as to build real warships.....only to mothball them as soon as the Borg threat died down. By this time they understood that there were other races in the galaxy that both could and would stomp them. Yet they were so deluded that they refused to consider creating at the very least a branch of Starfleet dedicated to combat. If anything, Leyton’s coup should have served as a warning that Earth was vulnerable.....which they promptly forgot as they allowed the Breen to swing on in and bomb Starfleet HQ.

[@Paerigos]

this is slightly unfair Akira program was not mothballed. Sabers Norways and such went on. Sovereign class vessels were also slowly introduced. There is Steamrunner class thats is gunning it out with Borg cube during the battle of sector 001 - ship that (okay using beta cannon) is essentialy long range torpedo platform (essentialy a tricobalt device artillery) I guess at time its out of torpedoes since Stafleed slugged it out with the cube all the way for days slowing it down. Starfleet did build combat ships despite it being officialy laid off - in fact I would say the program was only officialy laid of, and it was people like Leyton who kept it running under guise of new designs like Akira, Sovereign which could be case stil be explorers like Intrepid. (Intrepit for me is essentialy a pursuit hit and run vessel... like a bird of prey - drop out of warp, spray the target with torpedos and get out...)

[@capacamaru]

Modern hospitals have their own backup generators. Stands to reason that they still do in the future.

[@Dungeonstone]

The reason for using cadets? They are less experienced and far less likely to challenge (illegal) orders especially when coming from a respected flag level officer. Using actual Starfleet personel runs a much greater risk of one or more of them questioning the orders and thus blowing the whole lid off of everything.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Janeway was probably made an Admiral so that Starfleet could keep her in a position that wouldn't allow for the circumstances of Voyager's journey to happen again. She was "kicked" upstairs, so to speak.

[@owlwaifu4949]

Who needs justification when you kill anyone who is against you?

[@Liowen]

Ah a Clinton-ectomy is you will...

[@knightingale9833]

The quote is "Those who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Key word being "temporary." I think even Benjamin Franklin understood that sometimes preserving lives is more important

[@TheMajorActual]

The answer is that the "citizens" of the Federation had surrendered their freedom for security long, LONG before Leyton ever showed up. Leyton's crime was simply demonstrating that in public, functionally yanking open the curtain....Michael Eddington was not wrong.

[@VestedUTuber]

There's no evidence to suggest that Federation citizens were oppressed - the only times federation citizens are forced to leave their home colonies are in situations where there is a preexisting conflict and martial law would apply. Honestly, we hardly ever see much of Federation citizens in general.

[@TheMajorActual]

Until you are a civilian, tried in a military court for committing a non-military crime, in a (presumably) non-military location ("Doctor Bashir, I Presume"). And -- back to the Maquis: The Cardassian border zone issue was not the same thing as the Sheliak. The issue with the Cardassians could be viewed as a martial law issue (barely), but there was no threat of war from the Sheliak; they simply said that if the colony ("Ensigns of Command") wasn't removed, they would "remove" it themselves. No action was taken against Data, when he decided that the only way to convince the colonists to leave was to engage in acts of sabotage and terrorism as a demonstration of the military might of a single Starfleet officer...While that may be viewed as "logical", I can guarantee you, if you do something like that here, on 21stC Earth, if they catch you, you're going to jail...or worse, depending on circumstances. And then -- there's "Insurrection".....

[@VestedUTuber]

@@TheMajorActual "Until you are a civilian, tried in a military court for committing a non-military crime, in a (presumably) non-military location ("Doctor Bashir, I Presume")." First off, DS9 is a Starfleet-operated station without a separate local civilian government arm to operate a civilian court, so the military court would have to do double-duty. Second, there wasn't actually a trial in that episode. It's likely that Richard Bashir's guilty plea was preliminary, the sentencing mentioned (which was extremely light for a charge that could be considered the equivalent to possession of nuclear materials without permit) was part of a preliminary plea-bargain and that the trial itself took place in a civilian court once he returned to Earth in order to make things official. Now, I do not agree with the Federation's blatantly reactionary legislation against human genetic engineering and I find their reasoning behind it to be "Reed Richards is Useless" tier idiocy, but I cannot find fault with the Federation in how this particular situation was handled. "The issue with the Cardassians could be viewed as a martial law issue (barely)" It could easily be viewed as a martial law issue. There had been on-and-off military conflict between the Cardassian Union and the United Federation of Planets for quite some time at that point. "but there was no threat of war from the Sheliak, they simply said that if the colony ("Ensigns of Command") wasn't removed, *_they would "remove" it themselves._* " That is a _BLATANT_ military threat, and who's to say the Sheliak would stop there? They could easily see the apparent (reason why I say apparent below) breach in the treaty as casus belli and take further action against the Federation. "No action was taken against Data, when he decided that the only way to convince the colonists to leave was to engage in acts of sabotage and terrorism as a demonstration of the military might of a single Starfleet officer...While that may be viewed as "logical", I can guarantee you, if you do something like that here, on 21stC Earth, if they catch you, you're going to jail...or worse, depending on circumstances." The colony on Tau Cygna V legally cannot be considered Federation territory or even a legal colony at all. The Federation never chartered such a colony and it never existed in Federation records. The colonists were originally bound for Septimis Minor aboard the SS Artemis which was launched 92 years before the events of the episode, and Tau Cygna V was signed over as Sheliak territory at least 111 years before the episode. The colonists knew they weren't where they were supposed to be, likely knew they were in Sheliak territory and not Federation territory, and decided to settle anyway. If Tau Cygna V _was_ a Federation colony and not an independent third party then your argument here would hold some water, but in the actual scenario Data's actions were outside Federation jurisdiction. Ironically, however, this could potentially count as a Prime Directive violation, albeit a justified one to prevent a war between the Federation and a warp-capable foreign power. If you really want to get technical, that whole incident wasn't even the Federation's problem.

[@VestedUTuber]

@Amber Hoke I mean, that's kind of my point. By threatening the "removal" (read: extermination) of the colonists, the Sheliak were essentially threatening war.

[@ShimaTrek]

That's why Section 31 existed for so long, so you don't have to answer those questions before going to sleep...

[@mrnoah8447]

Too bad he didn't use the Night Watch

[@bobbrown3667]

Or maybe call Mr. Bester he looks a lot like someone else that could get around without notice 😉

[@mrnoah8447]

@@bobbrown3667 that's an excellent point. who knew that the entire time he was on the bridge of the Enterprise, he was also telepathically scanning them without their knowledge or permission

[@SirMarshalHaig]

@@bobbrown3667 Bester was the secreat head of Section 31.

[@bobbrown5460]

@@SirMarshalHaig your right he was always in basic black

[@SirMarshalHaig]

@@bobbrown5460 And had his fingers down to the ellbows in the gouvernment and their shadow operations. A great puppetmaster, once the Shadows left the field.

[@mr.s2005]

so comparison for this actor. In both cases he plays in admiral who launches a coup against his government. In B5 he turned out to be both right in his actions and but smarter in how he found and revealed evidence to the public, which though it cost him his life, was able to get enough politicians and soldiers on his side that it was only a matter of time before Clark fell after revealing his true colors. While with DS9 it makes him more aggressive, like that the Captain from Next Generations who was attacking Cardiassian ships, they both turned out to right in the long run, but his actions messed up any chance he had prove his case to the general public and more or less allowed the Dominion a foothold in the quadrant. Though I think Generations that could been coincidence that worked out since I don't know if Gene Roddenberry would have ever approved the Federation having to fight an all out war with anybody.

[@jasondiend4248]

Why I like both b5 and DS9 they may have been some copy pasta going on. Still they handled it differently. I think this really played more with paranoia of war than all out war like in B5. Paranoia is a powerful weapon. It is the main weapon of the Dominion. Force your enemy to see enemies around every corner in every person even those they trust. Cause for good men like Leyton to make decisions they wouldn't make otherwise. Leyton was right in idea but execution was wrong. He needed to play a longer smarter game instead of giving into fear.

[@thetreblerebel]

The Federation is police state anyways. I got that feeling from TNG back when. Individual freedoms are allowed under federation ideals only. Starfleet was built upon those ideals so when threatened the admiral so no choice but to be prepared

[@davidanttila9305]

A little note for anyone watching this on it's own. The Changeling Founders was shown to be vastly more skilled at their shapeshifting abilities then Odo. Also it was indicated in Deep Spacenine that during all of that a single Changeling was in fact on Earth and not really doing anything. To help point out that the possibility of a founder being on Earth was enough to cause panic and fear in the Federation. Lastly it is indicated in Star Trek Next Generation and on that Admiral's have fairly a lot of autonomy. How ever Star Trek Original Series Pilot Episode Pike all the way through to Movie Undiscovered Country Captain Kirk. Starfleet was more military styled micro managed over the fleet.

[@WesStacey]

it was during this exact episode that a changeling appeared he didn't say that there was a single changeling on earth he said that there were only 4 in the ENTIRE alpha Quadrant, and sure you can probably infer that if there were only 4 in the entire quadrant than more than likely he was alone on earth, My guess would be that they would have a spy in the federation, one in the Romulan empire, replaced the killed changling in the Klingon Empire then put another one somewhere else, probably near Bajor to keep and eye on the wormhole. The point was that the changlings didn't have to do much, the mere threat of their presence was enough to instill paranoia in the Alpha quadrant, then all it took was a push here and nudge there, a whisper in the right ear and the Alpha Quadrant powers were ready starting to imploding all on thier. I mean with relatively little interference, a single changeling discovered the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar plan to attack the founders (they didn't even plant the idea, Tain had already come up with it) they encouraged it and then destroyed both organizations, without the Obsidian order in the way the Cardassian Civilians rose up and replaced with military government with a civilian one, then all it took was a changeling to infiltrate a Klingon empire, a warrior culture fraught with corruption and infighting, tearing itself apart after a long period of peace with no enemies to fight, and i'd imagine all the martok changling had to say was "Hey, the Dotopa council takeover must have been the work of changlings..." I'd imagine that the klingons were probably tripping over each other to be the first to get to Cardiassia Prime. The federation steps in and say "uhhh no you can't do that!" and boom the dominion did with the simple threat of their presence and a few whispers what the Romulans couldn't do through the entire TNG run, started a war between the Federation and Klingon Empire. It's a wonder that they decided to end this phase and come out into the open by aligning with Cardassia, it gave the Alpha Quadrant powers something to unite against, i'd have throught that they would have continued with the cloak and dagger phase for a lot longer until the alpha quadrant was in shambles.

[@skinder124]

I thought he said there were 4 on earth. But your summary of 4 in the alpha quadrant is much more consistent.

[@WesStacey]

@@skinder124 turns out you're correct he did say on earth. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5PWdJisnJaJq8U

[@JeanLucCaptain]

YES! ADAMA FOR FEDERATION PRESIDENT!!!

[@lanceheaps581]

You know what would have been really great is if Sisko failed to stop him. Then Leyton goes to the President’s office in Paris and says, “On behalf of the UFP you are under arrest my Lord.” Jarish Inyo, “Are you threatening me Admiral?” Leyton, “The Federation Council will decide your fate Mr. President.” Inyo, “I am the Council” Leyton, “Not yet!” Inyo, “It’s treason then!” Next Inyo does a wicked spin move and kills two of Leyton’s men with a red lightsaber.

[@rawwset]

Give me one shuttle with a transporter, industrial replicator, and an abandoned starsytem. In one year I could explode with millions of ships and drones to take over not only the Federation but the whole of the galaxy. Star Trek tech is so more overpowering than ever depicted.

[@TsorovanZero]

You'd need a bit more manpower than that. Now say an Excelsior stuffed with extra engineering personnel, that's about what you'd need for getting serious production done. Can't rely on robots alone. You'd also be short on rare components. That million ships would be stuck at impulse because dilithium doesn't grow on trees and you can't just replicate it. Your point about Trek industrial capacity is valid, but your assumption based on that has some holes. Replicators and robots can't solve everything.

[@rurrjh]

Self replicating mines for the wormhole. I was thinking about this with the wormhole, why did they not have a huge sheet in front of the wormhole. Cloaked ship flies through it, it breaks the sheet. Simple but effective

[@rawwset]

@@TsorovanZero You don't understand that you can use simpler science with Star Trek clarktech to obtain a truly staggering amount of industrial capacity. And a single Star Trek computer is all that would be necessary if I'm not trying to use all the "special" tech of the universe. Trust me, applying simple tech with a clarktech overwatch changes the game completely.

[@andrebrynkus2055]

In one year you are going to mine the raw material and build your fleet? Nah, with your list you can't accomplish what you say you will. To build the fleet you need material for your replicator to use. To get that material you need to mine it. So right now we're seeing you mine with your bare hands to get enough for a pick axe. Eventually you might get enough to replicate a Trek era mining drone. Then once it's going you can build more and then have an industrial line going to get started. Of course you are one guy replicating ships piece by piece and assembling it on your own. That is if you don't starve to death because you are spending all of your time mining instead of foraging for food in this abandoned star system. You could forage for organic matter that the replicator could process into food. ... A year? Based on your exact stipulations - decades, if you don't starve to death in your first few months. (And don't destroy your hands in that first month of mining.)

[@rawwset]

@@andrebrynkus2055 with an industrial replicator it can easily snowball

[@bisonhawk1]

Yo what movie was that clip from? that was a genius quote about military and police.

[@andromeda5414]

The reimagined Battlestar Galactica series.

[@bisonhawk1]

@@andromeda5414 Thanks man! I may start watching this soon!

[@Bosniarat24]

That quote is for people to understand that they are as responsible, or more responsible for their lives than a feckless government will ever be.

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Guilty yet justified.

[@SamuelJamesNary]

The quote on, "if one gives up some essential liberty in the name of a little additional safety in the end deserves neither" is a philosophical quote in nature and one that IS valid. People want to be safe, yes. And often in the moment people may react in a way that is designed to improve that sort of security. And that has happened repeatedly through the course of history. But often, once given power, a government is given power to do something, it is unlikely to relinquish said power. Which could mean that the security measure could overcome the initial problem, but would never be repealed even if the entire problem becomes a non factor. Which then means that if a new problem comes later, the initial measures aren't amended to respond to the new problem but entirely new measures are added to deal with the new problem, which can then continue to at least potentially strip away rights in the name of security. And in the end, you may result with a society that is secure but not free. And that's where that philosophical argument is so valid. Freedom implies free will and free choices. And that of course carries within it the risk that people will make the WRONG choices. Or that people will abuse the system to take advantage of it because they are free to do so. That is all part of what it means to be free. I'd also add that a system that allows for that risk and is still free makes the choices of those who do good all the more credit, because they are free to make that choice to do good. They aren't being "compelled" to make that choice.

[@PoonDaddyEric]

What Leyton should have done is resign from starfleet and run for the president of the Federation on a platform of making a more secure federation. There is no guarantee he would have won an election, but his coup was stupid unless he was prepared to fight a civil war. As Picard and other star fleet officers would have probably rebelled against had he succeed in his coup attempt. At the very least, running for public office would have allowed him to get his ideas out to the public and develop a movement for a more secure federation.

[@DocWolph]

BTW, Picard is not some great warrior no matter how much Trek writers Mary Sue him (especially in the movies). He would fold HARD in the face of a real military minded officer. It was only by the protection of the writers Picard never had to really deal with real military men. To be fair, Picard might be able to make his case to such an officer who would then proceed to fight for the cause, but Picard would NEVER be such a person.

[@iamsoldats]

I will build a magnificent minefield around the wormhole, the best you have ever seen, let me tell you! And the Dominion will pay for it all!

[@PoonDaddyEric]

@@DocWolph, I use Picard more as an example as someone who wouldn't just accept Leyton's overturning of democracy. You might be right that Leyton was the superior military min, but even if he was the most brilliant strategist in the Federation a civil war would have still been playing right into the hands of the dominion. After all, he would probably been seen as a despot who was fighting those who were trying to restore the democracy. The dominion could have then position themselves as liberators who were helping a "client rebel" restore the Federation government. Then after the Dominion won they could have installed their puppet. (At least that is what I would have done if I was the dominion).

[@PoonDaddyEric]

​@@iamsoldats LOL, that is one way you could take the story & if DS9 was made today I could see that being the direction they take the story.

[@DocWolph]

@@PoonDaddyEric I agree with most of what you say. Admittedly Star Trek does not give us many characters to go to for a situation where "real military" is at issue. Starfleet is broken in a lot of ways and one of the worse ways is that they actively refuse to even view themselves as a military force and even seek to force out officers who are willing to "man the walls" and fight the fight first and foremost. As a result there really is NO ONE to really honestly say "This Captain will straight-up and violently fight even The Federation and Starfleet to protect the Federation". Not even Picard. Frankly, all my Star Trek Head canon and Fan fictions revolve around Starfleet having come to their senses and being, not just looking or acting like, a real military. This is usually set in the JJ-Verse where such a stance makes the most sense.

[@Ranadinn]

My thoughts on the medical and power issues are that the emergency equipment would have its own internal power supply. So Earth could probably keep everyone alive till the power came back on for the day to day med tech....Or not and the loss of life would be almost hilariously tragic.

[@frictionRx5]

I wanna see a changeling and a T-1000 in hand to hand combat

[@Citiprime]

This video draws a fair number of assumptions and conclusions which are just not supported by ANYTHING in the four seasons of "Deep Space Nine" up to the point of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost." -The Federation was losing the PR battle with the Dominion There's literally NOTHING to support that idea. If anything, all of the major powers are reacting out of fear of the Dominion. At no point in the series are people "happy" to join up with the Dominion. Even the Cardassians see it as a means to an end. Also, the fact the Dominion had slaughtered the populations of Gamma Quadrant colonies (from various species) without giving anyone a chance to leave had to have been great PR. And in these episodes, the Founders are implicated in an unprovoked attack against a diplomatic conference. Quark's and Garak's famous "root beer' convo ends with two characters, who don't exactly agree with Federation values asking: "Do you think they'll be able to save us?" If the Dominion was winning the PR war, do you really believe the Federation would be looked upon as saviors? -Starfleet demands unreasonable search and seizure of people's blood without being challenged by any civilian authorities Starfleet demands blood tests of Starfleet personnel in all Starfleet ships and facilities. During the implementation of martial law its expanded to families on Earth (the location of a terrorist attack) too. But everything we see onscreen indicates those measures and martial law was legally declared through the president and presumably the Federation Council. And Jaresh Inyo (the Federation president) rescinds martial law and the security measures once the coup was uncovered. -Starfleet is the police of Earth That's an assumption and based on conjecture. The United Earth government (seen in "Enterprise") should still exist in the 24th century. For all we know, Starfleet personnel were coordinating with and supporting local authorities. The entire event was based around a foreign (Dominion) threat to Earth, where Starfleet would have a big say in how to respond. A foreign terrorist attack in D.C. or NYC might involve the Department of Defense, CIA, and even U.S. Army troops nationalized on American soil as a security force. That doesn't mean the local authorities don't exist or never existed. -Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands people would have been saved if they had looked at it like Leyton did We can play woulda, coulda, shoulda all day, but there is NO WAY TO KNOW if that would have been true. If Leyton's ideas would have succeeded, his authoritarian policies could of divided the Federation, possibly to a breaking point where the Federation itself pulls apart over policies akin to a police state, and made the Alpha Quadrant that much weaker when the Dominion fleet came through the wormhole. And remember, it wasn't the number of ships, phasers, or torpedoes or draconian security policies which made the biggest difference. It was the Emissary's relationship with the Prophets which stopped 4,000 Jem'Hadar ships.

[@LoreReloaded]

If you had watched the series i am doing, as i plainly say, i have made a good argument for that. The rest is literally in the episodes i am breaking down so ill encourage people to simply watch the episodes

[@ironstarofmordian7098]

How 'bout a top ten reasons why Bill Adama is the best Sci-fi military officer ever.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

I don't think that needs explaining

[@ironstarofmordian7098]

@@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547 true. But some of the youngins have yet to see nBSG.

[@Paerigos]

There is still Grand Admiral Thrawn... And well to put it bluntly... one man who came before Bill Adama and who was pretty much Bill Adama... Grand Admiral Gillad Pelleaon.

[@BradleyJCude]

The Adama Manuever. 'Nough said.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

There are a few factors to consider. The Federation found themselves in this situation for a number of reasons. The Treaty of Algeron proved that the Federation would accept a one-sided tech moratorium to keep the peace. The Kittomer Accords proved that the Federation would demilitarize to keep the peace. The Cardassian DMZ proved that the Frderation would accept a dis favorable treaty with a CLEARLY inferior adversary to keep the peace. Finally, the Federation invested FAR TOO MUCH authority in one organization(Starfleet). It basically guaranteed the abuse of power. They should have established separate agencies for every major service. Starfleet did far too many things to do any of them as well as they could. A Jack of all trades is a master of none.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

The cardasians had warships.The federation did not.Their galaxy class was a glass cannon.Their best balanced ships were the excelsior and miranda class.Both were 80 years old.Granted cardasian tech was inferior to the federations.But their ships were equal to the federations.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@thunberbolttwo3953 Not even close the Cardassian warships couldn't even match the stagnant ships of the Klingons much less the ships of the Federation. The Federation had far better sensors, stronger shields, faster warp drives, better impulse engines and far more versatile and powerful weapons. It has even been shown that the Federation could identify and track Cardassian ships via long range scans, but the Cardassians could not identify much less track Federation ships. This technological disparity would allow a single Nebula class to wreak havoc in Cardassian space and would've allowed Starfleet to dictate the terms of virtually every engagement. They could've even bypassed the Cardassian "warships" to strike directly at key installations and severely disrupt their infrastructure. Besides my speculative model as presented renders the "glass canon" factor moot as I was presenting a hypothetical scenario involving a dedicated Federation military. There's a reason no major power took the Cardassian Union seriously. They didn't have sufficient resources to fight much less win a protracted conflict with any major power not the Klingons, not the Romulans, and CERTAINLY not the Federation.

[@Bosniarat24]

That quote is for people to understand that they are as responsible, or more responsible for their lives than a feckless government will ever be.

[@dekardkain5469]

The early (civilian) issues are easy to explain and probably aren't a huge problem. Hospitals, nursing homes, ect, even TODAY have backup generators to kick in should power fail. That's likely why it was never mentioned as an issue. People were in the dark and afraid, but no one mentions casualties, because we're not stupid, and have redundancies for critical things like life support and surgical wings. The real question is, since they don't mention this and we assume that means civies are covered... why the hell doesn't Starfleet have backups? The military should have backups too... unless they planned for them to fail too for maximum effect? But that would make it clear the military was behind the coup... it makes no damn sense.

[@SplotchTheCatThing]

The quote about giving up freedoms in the name of security has always come off to me like saying "die for your own right to stay alive". It's a pretty sentiment but it doesn't actually give you any meaningful way to solve a problem. The universe doesn't give you what you think you deserve, it gives you the consequences to your own actions -- and sometimes the actions of others, and sometimes the random actions of the universe itself. You might not be able to control two out of those three things, but you can control the other one. What I saw in this story was a number of people who succeeded at convincing themselves they were the good guys by turning a blind eye to the consequences of their own actions because that was easier than actually living up to their idea of themselves. I don't know if there is ever a *right* option in a situation where you have to choose someone to live and someone else to die, but I do have this idea that at the times when your decisions matter most, it's almost never a good idea to go the easy way. So from my own moral 'logic', I say the admiral did the wrong thing, not because there was any one 'right' choice, but because he could have chosen to do better.

[@NitpickingNerd]

it's funny that he had a Vulcan relative who tried to become the dictator of Vulcan 200 years earlier and even collaborated with the Romulans

[@MandalorV7]

Or how about how another reality version of him opposed President Clark's dictatorship over Earth.

[@andljoy]

He is also has another human ancestor who is Chairman on planet P3X-744. Dude gets arround!

[@NitpickingNerd]

And he is always a politician

[@Wedgekree]

Making meta jokes about Starfleet Security and thier capabilities as well as that of the admiralty aside.. I think that before the war started Starfleet should have put more flag officers with extensive combat experience in command roles. It's not really stated if the Federation has had any other large scale conflicts since the end of the Cardassian border wars but unlikely. The stopgap is putting as many individuals with as much combat experience as possible at higher ranks. But, that requires a willingness to do so. The Borg sent shockwaves through Starfleet, but most of the adaptation was by putting more emphasis on military research (which they hadn't done for decades) and new designs which would come into being during and after the war. But a total rework of their forces does not happen until the war starts and goes badly. Because Starfleet has been complacent for decades, there's been no internal reason to shake things up badly and root out the deadwood. Starfleet is a scientific arm primarily with occasional peacekeeping duties. There's no way to push STarfleet to reform until it's needed - and desperately so. I don't think that there's any realistic way that the Federation could have braced itself for war -and- the shift that this requires with the civilian population and military arms without this occuring. There's no massive upheaval before this that forces them to do so. The Borg hav epushed for incremental reforms. But to suddenly thrust them into a full wartime economy and mentality isn't something you can do.. Before war starts.

[@Wedgekree]

Border skirmishes really aren't the same as full out conflicts. But you do have a point. There was also a limitation when it came to experience and training. When the Enterprise-D carries out war games (Peak Performance) even Riker, one of the far more aggressive officers in Starfleet looks down upon Starfleet being a military organization and the Zakdorn observer asks why he's there to watch the exercise. This is before the Borg attack but it speaks to Starfleet's mentality. Even if you had a massive reorientation of training and outlook after the Battle of Wolf 359, that's roughly 4-5 in-universe years before the Dominion War starts. Presuming right after the battle Starfleet starts an overhaul of training, it takes years for that to filter down - through the officer's ranks, to leadership, to rank and file - much less areas like Starfleet Academy. That's presuming it starts immediately after the battle - which there's no real indication it did (a least in TNG). And more realistically it probably doesn't heavily ramp up until first contact with the Dominion and the destruction of the Odyssey.

[@ericharris1853]

What did Picard do to Wesley crusher again lol a kid not even in Starfleet

[@Warsage29]

Great video Lore though what I dont get is how the hell Red Squad got a top of the line defiant class WARSHIP for a TRAINING CRUISE mean if it was a Excelsior or Miranda class I would understand but a defiant no in fact it seems that there was only a handful of them and give it to cadets.

[@rurrjh]

Why a global grid. Why not super solar powered batteries .

[@rurrjh]

Cadets are pliable. Only half of the planet was dark.

[@rurrjh]

Your plan is for Sisko to challenge his captors to shoot him? It's like the old Russian suicide note. Stop shooting comrades

[@patrickmckeel9840]

For the medical services being unaffected, I would imagine at given time there would be ships in orbit or nearby. Those ships would be able to handle emergency communications, transporting and the most urgent medical needs.

[@Headhunter1234256]

What i would do to laden is remove him from Starfleet and lock him away in a cell for the rest of the war. If he helps out by giving advice he can get back some accommodations. He did what he believed he had to, to protect starfleet. Use his knowledge but through someone more reasonable.

[@somedude1771]

Hot stuff man, nearly 500 views in 22minutes :)

[@LoreReloaded]

Back end has it at 700 so far.. thats good.. itll probably be in top 3 of last ten vids

[@somedude1771]

@@LoreReloaded lol indeed, shows me 588 now. Also thanks for replying, the email notification just let me know my internet restarted it's silly self and I can finish the video :D

[@johnschmalbach8243]

Agreed on your "cadet" thing. One thing any "Officer" today will acknowledge. Don't "FF" with the Operators. Star Fleet Security are experienced operators. SMH

[@thedivinityman]

I am doing the lore breakdown of how in season 5 Episode 10 entitled "New Ground" of the series "Star Trek The Next Generation" Geordi talks about being there to witness the Soliton Wave like being there to witness Chuck Yeager break the sound barrier, or watching Zephram Cochrane engage the first warp drive, little did he know that he would be in the Phoenix with Dr. Zephram Cochrane when the first warp drive is engaged.

[@MegaRockdiesel]

Sisko father had a minor stroke 😉

[@sirfriendzone1228]

Seems like Section 31 would have backed Leyton.

[@pixeldemon3267]

Right !!!

[@arivael]

So your point about the cadets, I think there was a lack of others Layton could have used, the whole Red Squad is playing into a series of physiological manipulation of young, impressionable minds, you do see why it was a very bad idea when Sisko questions one of them, instant admission in his response to Sisko's bluff. But with Starfleet black ops, well there would be two issues, how many of them are of the same mindset as Slone, willing to do the dirty work in the shadows to ensure the ideal of the Federation is upheld in public and second, even if Section 31 is not acknowledged to exist someone of Layton's rank and position would know better and well, how many off the Starfleet personal he could pick for that operation are part of Section 31, we see with Bashir after all they don't pull everyone they recruit from their position if they think them being there is a good place to be. For medical, if it is down, first order once beamed up to the Lakota, get everyone in every hospital on Earth up to Space Dock and open every working sickbay on every ship docked there, anyone who can be moved onto a shuttle and off to Mars, Luna etc. For Sisko when is is confronted in the President's office, he should have first insisted they replicate a new hypo there and then to test with, failing that the getting stunned option might have worked, though there is one issue with that. He would likely assume that everyone from Starfleet in the room is with Layton and that proving it with them there would just end up with the President in the next cell under the same accusation, so it is safer to go with it and trust in Odo to get him out afterwards. Giving to ordering the Lakota to fire on the Defiant, of all the stupid things he could have done, even if it was an order to disable as implied when he gives the follow up to use Quantum torpedoes what did he think was going to happen, even with its upgrades had the Defiant really been taken over by the Dominion an Excelsior class doesn't stand a chance in a fight and the fact that when the shooting started the the Defiant only engaged to disable the Lakota should really have tipped them off.

[@CesarinPillinGaming]

IMHO: Nope. Layton was played very well with the Changelings. By falling for fear and implemented a military esque changes on the Federation. Its members will feel uneasy of the human power structure and therefore would have divided the federation. Which is exactly how the changeling Lovok did manipulate the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian order to believe their worst fears and be tossed into a trap. The changelings are not stupid and while both the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian order were pretty much fascist style dictatorship groups based on intelligence. The Federation nature of cooperation required distrust more than fear. As for the blood thing, I disagree, the blood tests were exclusively for StartFleet Personal, and the wide sweeps were pushed by Layton including the show of force on ground.

[@lynngreen7978]

Ironically, Picard, Ross, Nechayev, Jellico, and Nakamura would later remove President Zife.

[@mr51406]

Starfleet is a unified entity only for narrative convenience. In US terms it’s the Navy + FBI + NASA + the state department (ambassadors) + a university + EPA +… This makes no “real world” sense if the Federation is a democracy. (But then maybe only Earth is a representative democracy?) This kind of detail is possible in books but not in commercial episodic television. At very least security and engineering shouldn’t both be gold (formerly red). But then the oversimplification is real and the episodes show a glimpse of the consequences of that plot hole.

[@weldonwin]

Of course Starfleet doesn't have Black-Ops, "We're Explorers, not soldiers" remember. Only those sneaky, underhanded, morally inferior aliens would stoop that low

[@stevenlitak2464]

The DS9 episode is basically a plagiarism of the movie, "Seven Days in May" with Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, and Ava Gardner. The movie involves a highly regarded general, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff with most of the other Chiefs of Staff, attempting a military coup of the USA. Sisko plays the role that Kirk Douglas played; someone who serves under the traitor, and who also respects the traitor.

[@dswynne]

No, it wasn't, considering that, in the following season, the Breen would strike Earth. I wonder if Leyton pulled a "D'oh" moment at that point... And Sisko is a hypocrite for what HE did, in order to pull the Romulans into the war.

[@AC-su6mj]

who needs oversight on personnel transfers when your an organisation of peace, am i right?

[@iona2225]

Oversight over what? A ‘not-military’ organization? Pfft why waste time? It’s not they got weapons, ships or run by a moronic species of simians obsessed with xenophilic intercourse.

[@timaahhh]

Starfleet is not a pure military organization. It seem Starfleet would mostly mirror an organization like the US Navy, while in part it does it's a lot more than just that. It's part US Navy, Part US Coast Guard, Part US Public Health Service Commissioned Corp, Part Army Corp of Engineers and Part NOAA Corps. Now the NOAA Corps I think embodies more of what the Federation would like Starfleet to be, NOAA is a scientific organization that runs the National Weather Service. The NOAA Corps is a Uniformed branch of NOAA that has the same Ranks as the US Navy and operates survey ships for exploration mapping and maintaining NOAA assets. The Navy obviously has far more assets then any other seafaring branch. However that model of a Warship heavy uniformed service in the Federation may not have made any sense. Even today with China and Russia asserting and growing their military power there always is a groundswell of political will to reduce US military budgets. Starfleet as it was was more than a match for any Alpha Quadrant Power known. They demonstrate they can effectively upgun their fleet to combat any major Power. In our world we have finite resources. Wars are fought over those resources. However space is MASSIVE so trading colonies with the Cardasian shouldn't be that big of a deal. Of course treding on your peoples dignity will result in what we saw with the Maquis but still is changing your entire fleet doctrine so you can go to war to defend a few unimportant colonies really worth it? And to that point a Dominion level posture would not even be required for the Federation to defeat the Cardasians. Without the help of the Dominion a war between the Federation and Cardasian Union would have been a curb stopping by the Federation. Even with growing threats in the real world there are still those who want to see US Military budgets reduced. Think of what Starfleet would have to contend with. There was likely no political will to invest resources into building warships.

[@vic5015]

How about a mock court martial of Sisko? He saved the Federation, by betraying its principles. Of you could incarnate the Federation into a single individual, would s/he approve of Sisko's methods? I personally think not.

[@jannegrey593]

Given the fact that Sisko isn't above making questionable decision "for greater good" I think, that a middle road would be much better. To elect someone like Adm. Ramirez from "Prelude to Axanar" to commander in chief and not taking the dominion threat lightly - also inform citizens better! - your point on PR war was spot on. If you inform the people better they might make better decisions. How to achieve that? Apart from far better PR campaign, just like you I have no idea. That's why I admire admiral Ramirez - he was willing to openly state that Federation is at war and what needs to be done WITHOUT suppressing people's right's. There are people like that, only they are rare - even rarer than in the real world than in ST. Even DS9 being the show that shows us the "grayer Starfleet" it is full of black and white characters (no pun intended) - which means it is still Star Trek in it's core. Heroes are Heroic and "secondary villains" are dumb as hell, unlike the primary.

[@BlazingOwnager]

He chose Red Squad because they were zealots, not because they were better than special forces. Apparently Leyton wasn't cool enough to get a Section 31 invite. i.e. normal special forces would have turned Leyton in immediately.

[@peterhaag86]

Leyton would’ve been far more successful had Sisko been out of the picture from the beginning. Or if he just had him killed 🤷🏻‍♂️ rather than have him arrested, shoot him and blame it on Odo, then you have an outlaw changeling and a dead Starfleet Commander / religious Messiah...oh the revolution!

[@uttermanbo]

This is Earth after barely escaping the Borg. We know Starfleet became more militant after that. I find it odd how unprepared they were for another invading force. Perhaps they were prepared for the destructive straightforward approach of the Borg who didn't use subterfuge. They didn't feel the need for it..

[@JohnSmith77777fs]

I wonder if Admiral Layton and his officers and personal were released after the Dominion joined Cardassia? Did Starfleet give him and his people a pardon and return them to the fleet? Starfleet was having a serious personal shortage and Layton was a great tactician that was ultimately right about the threat the Dominion posed.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

My bet is that Layton wasn't behind the terrorist attack but knew something like it was inevitable so planned for it. When it happened, he was ready with his child soldiers...ehem...cadets and select officers.

[@storyseekeer828]

Hey lore, what do you think would have happened if Home Front and Paradise Lost resulted in a Federation Civil war. What worlds, species, important characters would support Layton's government (the Loyalist) or those who oppessed him (the insurrgents/rebels). Would the other governments stay out of it, or would some support one side or another, I would liked see what the Klingons and the Romulans would make of it. How would the Dominion take advantage of the Federation Civil war. Finally what would be consequences of the war on the Federation and the rest of the galaxy at large.

[@MichlVal]

So just to address a couple of your points. As to being able to beat any security system if you're smart enough, that's true, but it doesn't mean you just don't try (not that I agree with everything they were doing here). I lock my door every night, but if someone wants to get in, it wouldn't be that hard. As to the military being able to take over any time and the civilians not able to do anything about it, yeah that's everywhere. I mean, if the U.S. military decided to take over the country right now, what could we as civilians do? It's training the military to believe in democracy that stops them, not the worry about what the local police will do if they take over. As to how the rest of the galaxy would see the Federation, Romulans and Cardassians invading the Dominion, you have to remember, they're only being told what Starfleet, the Romulans and the Cardassians want to tell them. Now in the case of Starfleet, that's probably everything, which truthfully doesn't paint the Dominion well. "We went in to peacefully explore and they attacked us." Every little mis-step that was made wouldn't be public knowledge, so I don't think the Dominion would actually be winning the PR war as you said.

[@jase4929]

You have to ask,,,just what the hell type of upgrades did they give the lakota? There wasn't much difference between both ships here only the deffiants ablative armour wich,,, well saved it in this case....this is a story of an admiral taking matters i to his own hands and loosing........

[@SnowyRVulpix]

I think the important message here is that this episode... and others in the Dominion War... as well as the Xindi war, and Janeway's journey home... shows us that heroes aren't perfect... They make mistakes. A lot of them. And they can be affected by the same things we are. Stress, fear, anger, etc.

[@Dave--FkTheDeepstate]

10:40 "There's a reason we separate the military & police..." Great quote from Admiral Adama. Unfortunately in the corrupt AF USA, the police -- originally created to 'recover' escaped slaves -- Serve & Protect the oligarch's capital.

[@johnedgarharris3742]

Is there any info on Cisco’s dads past? Always a chef? Any pre-chef experiences for him to be an authority on “any man can get around” comment? Was it just being “dad” made it carry weight with Cisco?

[@joshualau4070]

There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of local police on Earth (or at least in New Orleans). I wonder how many services usually done on the local level have been deferred to Starfleet in its core territories. There isn’t much evidence of a localized National Guard either, save for the Bajoran Militia in Star Trek Online. We do not know if the Vulcans or Andorians themselves have their own fleets guarding their planets, and we know how often Starfleet tends to have a single ship in a given area, even when it comes to protecting Earth. This probably gives clues as to why Sela thought conquering Vulcan was going to be so easy, she probably thought that the civilian populace would simply go along with whomever was in charge, plus there isn’t a fleet of ships protecting Vulcan.

[@tba113]

Machiavelli was right all along: "War is never to be avoided, but only delayed to your enemies' advantage." Now, Machiavelli was a very 'the ends justify the means' kind of guy, but I can't say he was wrong. Unfortunately for Leyton, the admiral's actions fail that test. Leyton's security measures did not work, and possibly never would have, against Dominion infiltration. All they did was endanger Federation civilians and violate their civil rights. (Oh - and perpetrate some fratricide between Starfleet personnel.) The Federation was no safer by Leyton's actions, and it's not obvious that his plan had any serious chance of success. If all he wanted to do was shock the Federation in general (and Starfleet in particular) into taking overt action against an impending danger like the Dominion, there are any number of other plans that would have done that without risking so many Federation lives or ideals. One plan might be to send a ship like the _Lakota_ on special orders to an area where the Dominion could plainly be seen as the aggressor causing problems, with instructions to livestream the footage across the Federation. _Excelsiors_ have some of the best computer and electronic warfare systems in Starfleet, so they shouldn't have any problem with jamming, and they're tough enough to live long enough to at least get the message out if things turn really ugly. The Feds' technologies are awfully centralized as it is - Leyton managed to bring down an entire planet's power grid with a handful of cadets armed with flash drives, after all - so it's not like that sort of message could be easily stopped without the infiltrators tipping their hand, which is a possibility Leyton could reasonably predict. Any action from Dominion infiltrators would have to be quick and dirty, if the _Lakota_'s broadcast is done in real time, which would give clues to the infiltrators' identities to anyone who knows what to look for and is watching. Leyton might not know beforehand who the infiltrators are specifically, but he knows they're out there, and he surely would have some suspicions. It wouldn't be hard to position teams of vetted and handpicked men near a short-list of possible spies, ready to move in and sweep them up. If the infiltrators act, then Leyton can kill or capture those that do when the big moment arrives. He gets to remove a bunch of enemy spies, showcase how the sinister Dominion is trying to hamstring the Federation, and make a very strong case for mobilization. If the infiltrators keep quiet, then the signal from the _Lakota_ gets broadcast to the Federation, and Starfleet deploys against the Dominion anyway for whatever atrocity they were filmed perpetrating. There: a plan that wakes up the Federation and Starfleet to the Dominion threat, where the only lives risked are Leyton's picked men on the _Lakota_ and his teams of door-kickers assigned to move in against the infiltrators, and the only civil rights risked are those of the people Leyton suspected of being spies, but turned out to be innocent all along - and if the door-kickers do their jobs right, those suspects would never even know they were there.

[@josephrudder2104]

Admiral Leyton was also dereliction his duty as he was also needed in the Babylon 5 universe to be General Hague and fight President Clark. :-)

[@45580677]

I was looking at a AU story from the novels where Cardassia never gave up Bajor and Leyton never knew of the Dominion but no Defiant as Sisko still at Mars working out bugs but the fleet at Sector 001 with Enterprise-E at the start had fewer losses and ready to fight the Romulans that without the Defiant as better Tactical Akiras a work around

[@CJ-442]

As far as hospitals and medical facilities go, today. All the places that I’ve ever worked at have independent gas or diesel generators that kick on to keep the necessities running. Heat and A/C for the kitchen or supply room may go out during an outage, but lights, respirators, O2 saturators, etc. will stay on. I don’t see this ever changing even during the 24th century.

[@ayoung151]

You ask who had oversight on the transfers in Starfleet after the attempted takeover during TNG - I would suggest that it would be Section 31. They didn’t move to stop these transfers because they saw what Admiral Leyton was attempting to do - make the Federation stronger to combat a threat they themselves were already actively working to commit genocide against, the Dominion.

[@nategraham6946]

Your point on freedom and security is a valid one. I would retort however with an old American mindset, give me liberty (freedom) or give me death. And this is something we have lost. I presume you've seen Captain America and the Winter Soldier?

[@ottersirotten4290]

If absolute Loayalty to a Set of Rules will result in the Defeat and Enslavement of youre Poeple wich you have to serve and protect... are you really a Trator if you say f... zhe Rules?

[@1reefshark]

the line about personal freedoms makes me think of what Picard said in drumhead. The first link of the chain, I’d say this chain was just about to be locked together.

[@musicalhistory4392]

The key thing about the Dominion was the changelings raised fights, they didn’t do it themselves, so the Federation certainly didn’t need a hit head running it and kept the President and a peace delegation, that way they should have never taken sides in the Klingon Cardassian war, later when the Dominion started flying ships through the wormhole, give the Dominion an ultimatum, transport all of their new Cardassian allies to their side of the Galaxy(with no more than 100 ships on this side of the wormhole) or be destroyed by mining the thing, leaving those roughly first 100 ships as the War, and quite frankly let the Klingons finish the job.

[@VulpesChama]

The price of security is freedom and the price of freedom is security. You cannot have both at maximum at the same time. It's actually a very modern issue. People want to feel safe(r) but want the absolute freedom. The first problematic thing is, the world, at least the western nations, have never been safer than now. Sure, there are incididents but they don't stand out because there are so many, they stand out because there are only so few. And thats a perception problem, as the fewer incidents there are, the more severe they seem. But absolute freedom is even without putting security into it, a big issue, as absolute freedom has a second price to pay. The freedom of others. If I am allowed to do as I please, than who is not? If I can do whatever I want on my property, than my neighbor is subject to the potential noise etc. and suffers a reduction in living out his freedom by me living out mine. Which brings me to my point, that the terminology freedom without context is absolutely meaningless. And as stated, we live in a time in which people demand to be safe(r) and have all the freedoms there are without actually knowing what that means, without knowing what they are actually asking for.

[@tomcopple7633]

What Leyton would have been better off doing is either reinstating the MACO's (yes I know, we didn't know about them in the 90's), or have a dedicated military corp or fleet made up of an intentional military arm. Then use in a way where the rest of Starfleet can just do it's normal thing and when war breaks out, they maintain holding moves, or otherwise stall the enemy until the dedicated war fleet comes in to fight. Surely Leyton could have done one of those without resorting to a coup.

[@j.griffin]

7:37 “No high level officer would believe that order unless they were incredibly stupid.” How about sufficiently stupid? Isn’t that what plot devices often seem to revolve around? Plain old paranoia or blind obedience would also work in this particular case, as well. Of course, that heads back towards the stupidity aspect,but...

[@liquidsuspect2469]

if there are shapeshifters on earth I have zero problems submitting a blood sample for a limited "shake and observe" test if that narrows down where the shapeshifters can hide, "for the greater good" of humanity and the federation. I have plenty of it, and the hypospray is noninvasive. it just isn't a big deal

[@thomassalois3508]

Perhaps Admiral Layton was working for section 31

[@WesStacey]

Not directly related here but you touched on it in the video, the dominion was doing a GREAT job of destabilizing the Alpha quadrant, and yet they gave that up when they aligned themselves with Dukat and let Cardassia join the dominion. I'm not sure what the logic was there, why not stay the course, the fear of the dominion alone had already toppled the Cardassian Obsidian Order which lead to the civilian uprising which toppled the military government, a small shove from a changeling Martok and suddenly Cardassia, The Federation and the Klingon Empire are at war. i don't understand why the Dominion didn't stay the course sure changeling Martok was discovered and a semi-stable peace was reestablished, but why not continue pushing and destabilizing from the shadows, cause a few more wars and then offer a solution, by aligning themselves with the Cardassians they suddenly showed themselves and provided a common enemy for the remaining major Alpha Quadrant powers to unit against. The only thing i can think of is the wormhole, it was the bottleneck that prevented them from using their standard methods of carrot and stick to take over, access to the Alpha quadrant was limited and per the simulation that the changelings put Sisko and his crew into when it was first revealed that the changelings were the founders, the federation would rather destroy the wormhole than let the Dominion take over. Perhaps they thought that it the federation was close to doing just that and decided they needed to establish a beachhead in the Alpha Quadrant before that happened ( they later sabotaged the attempt shut it down so that it instead of destroying it they stabilized it and prevented it from being destroyed in later attempts). That's the only reason that i can see that they would align with Cardassia, and change the game. With the plan working so well as it was its really difficult to see why they changed course and started an all out war instead sticking to the shadows.

[@TheTobaccoman]

Long and short of it is this. Star fleet was the aggressors who came into a section of space that wasn’t theirs. They were known about for a long time but the dominion did nothing to them. They brought a warship into someone’s space and wanted to back them down. It didn’t work. So running into a war they were ill equipped to handle. Truth was there was little to be done if the founders infiltrated earth. However people want to feel safe. So in long round about he did wrong things for the right reasons. DS9 is my favorite trek for just that reason it shows you life isn’t as clean as it seemed from TNG. Honestly without it I’d never have stuck with Trek. So it’s not an easy situation and honestly even heroes have to play the villain sometimes. That’s what makes it so good. Even the bad guys given the proper lighting could be considered good guys and good guys aren’t the flawless heroes of story books. I vote justified treason to keep his people safe and federation strong. In the face of an enemy so alien , I’d rather not take chances and be soft and risk being wiped out. I would doubt anyone who fought the gem hadar would see loss as an option they didn’t take surrender well. No matter how nice the vortas could seem one encounter with the line troops would show you surrender and mercy aren’t an option.

[@generalknowledge603]

In times of total war the military must have all resources put at its command or the civilians may suffer look at Neville Chamberlain he was so scares of going to war he allowed Germany to rearm and annex Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[@kellypaws]

What if, the Federation were just the wrong people to coordinate a response to the Dominion? They are more like prey than predator. Maybe it took the Romulans, or the Cardassians to be in overall command from the outset of the situation? A culture that was more single mindedly devoted to not losing.

[@2345tomson]

I feel like in Star Trek (atleast in the post TNG version) the Federation is what humanity will look like if it gives up its goals. The Federation supposedly has no currency no limit to its power for creativity but all we see is them living in the past. They have no idea of the cost of an action in finances or human lives. They face the idea of war with no decision but do not seem to be affected until earth its self is burnt. the Federation is no Utopia it is humanity failing. As for Leyton he is a criminal but a man with good intent. I would put him charge of a front line fleet. He holds the faith of his men and the mind for victory just keep him away from Earth.

[@theoriginaltroll4truth]

The thought of the citizens not arming themselves and helping to protect and take up defense of their world is ludicrous. It seems the federation had become filled with marshmallows much like the world today, all willing to give up rights for a sense of protection.

[@catbert911]

i really badly want a federation future for earth because in the grand scheme of things it'll save way more lives...but there would be no place in that world for somebody like me...

[@richardwalker2881]

And oh yeah remember section frikking 31

[@SirMarshalHaig]

They waited to get rid of the changeling who would impersonate Leyton once he had established himself as dictator of the Federation and use all the sweet power to finish the DOminion and pretty much everyone else who might look like he could become a threat at some point.

[@jasondiend4248]

There are ways to do things without going all authoritarian on people. Simple all people in positions of power must accept rules for being in those positions. ONe of those is sacrificing rights. Civilians are an issue but at the same time there shouldn't be a need to try to take someones blood just because you're afraid. Only time civilians should be tested are when they enter medical areas and military/political areas. Want to enter this area you can't unless you take a blood test. Going door to door isn't right and never is. So we're left with what the Dominion does the best. The long game. They much rather win by making their enemies turn on themselves. Giving in to fear and paranoia does nothing but cause people to turn against each other. It is up to the military and government to step up and do their jobs and not give into the baser instincts.

[@travisdavis6778]

I think leyton used cadets because more experienced officers would question or report him

[@thehillbillygamer2183]

I think the united earth government would have the room civilian police force in their own military force now the military force would only need impulse ships say the size of the work delta is the impulse delta it could be equipped with lasers bel canto pillows and shields cruise around the solar system making sure it’s secure with the police powers

[@dogkungfu8510]

You can't defend your Ideals by destroying them yourself.

[@simonchambers7076]

Everyone let fear dictate their actions, they needed to think through how the changelings work and look out for it while preparing the fleet for the war that seems to be coming. As you said moving the federation to more a wartime economy and shifting upgrading ships into high gear would work but the countermeasures they tried were worthless.

[@RaegisKhan]

Giving up your life for the morally right thing to do is starfleet 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@robertagu5533]

Unless.. of course he says "stun me" tries to force the outcome.. an then Sisko gets butt stroked or ganged up on an restrained.. no stun needed. If Leyton wants the cue all he has to do is detain an opponent he needs not necessarily kill or hurt anyone. Especially, if it's to prove an opposite point

[@plainbagel9192]

For the life of me , why did sisko revert back to tng era uniforms

[@PoonDaddyEric]

There could be a lot of reasons, but the mostly likely of which is that the federation operates over a large area of space. It is likely that they divide federation control space under different commands. Each command probably either decides which uniform to wears, or has regulations in place which decides when they'll switch to the new uniforms based upon where they are serving. This would be similar to how the US military operates with their uniforms. However, it is typically the different branches, but I believe their uniform changes depending on where they are serving. For example, in the navy I think sailors on a ship have different uniforms then those serving on land. In fact, depending on where they are serving they can being wearing a vast number of uniforms. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy With all that being said, if I had to bet on why they were wearing TNG uniform I would assume it was because they had extra TNG uniforms & not enough extra DS9 uniforms. Having Sisko wearing TNG uniforms makes it more obvious that he is working for a different command.

[@Terlin1466]

when under direct threat you can enact martial law. this is pretty standered in all civilizations of republics. what the admiral was doing was find a way to make this a thing before it got bloody. A noble goal but the way he was doing it was wrong and he knew that.

[@HeadlessChickenTO]

Victory at all cost...for most of Starfleet, that cost was too high till reality hits. It's definitely a mentality change that is needed and it should start with military aggression; less pussy footing around threats to the state, not territorial expansionism. Starfleet needs to better uphold their boarders along with their own policies of interference of foreign governments...let's face it, just about every major threat they faced was because they stuck their noses in to other people's business once too often.

[@Iceflkn]

The, "What would you do" question is huge. I don't have an answer either.

[@Vagus32000]

I would say it was justified simply because despite your amazing eye opening takes on the Dominion war and it’s lead up, I still say they’re the bad guys and Star Fleet wasn’t doing what needed to be done to protect the Federation.