On Tyranny, And Why I Think Arabs Can Talk About Hummus.

[@Jorbs]

gonna try keeping a running moderation log on this one. in general i'll be deleting unproductive negativity and unfounded claims. removed @matthew5226 from channel, as-of 1.5 hours after posting they've posted 7 comments, exclusively negative, in the video comments section. have the integrity to find out what things are before you shit on them.

[@Jorbs]

deleting a comment thread claiming frogan supported terrorism and the deaths and rapes of civilians on oct 7. some tweets from frogan on and around oct 7: x.com/fr0gan/status/1712221924451856654 x.com/fr0gan/status/1711506051277701580 x.com/fr0gan/status/1711898989392531907 x.com/fr0gan/status/1710741642305503519 the tweet people are saying means she supported terrorism and the deaths and rapes of civilians does not mention terrorism, murder, or rape, it is a criticism of leftists who want revolution to happen in america but immediately condemn it if it happens in the middle east: x.com/fr0gan/status/1710587819385614829 (i do not personally agree with her opinion on leftists, but i thought i'd help you understand what her tweets said using the power of ~ literacy ~ )

[@Jorbs]

removed tehy123 from the channel for "That's nice, but you should save the explanations for the guy I'm responding to, who definitely never thought about any of that for a second in his life." don't insult other people, or presume to know them.

[@Jorbs]

removed jivers1 from the channel for doubling down on the terrorism etc. stuff in this pinned thread: "@Jorbs To read into these comments as genuinely innocuous is completely without nuance. It’s clear at this point that you aren’t engaging in this conversation in good faith. Additionally, it is ironic that you suggest literacy in order to reinterpret her tweet in a specifically less insightful way. Ascertaining her true, mask off, political beliefs are only done by gleaning what you can from these types of instances. An antisemitic communist can’t go on Twitter and say “I defend the murder of civilians.”" etc. humanizing people is in fact nuanced. suggesting that middle eastern women are supporting rape if they are critical of leftists in america for being unsupportive of revolutions in the middle east is not.

[@Jorbs]

removed a couple of comments claiming things like that panelists support terrorist organizations, that they support targeting civilians, that they hate israel, etc., with zero evidence supporting them. don't accuse people of hate without providing any evidence what the fuck.

[@Randozza]

@Jorbs did you see me post evidence on that other comment? I'd be curious to know what part of my argument you disagree with. Do you think October 7th wasn't a terrorist attack? Do you think people were not murdered that day? Do you think Frogans tweet on October 7th defending a 'revolution' was not in support of the October 7th attack?

[@jacobmorton5117]

It’s gotten to the point that I’m more excited for jorbs lecture upload than jorbs slay the spire

[@derrickobara6806]

Honestly I'm just here to listen to a relatively reasonable person talk. It's an island of sanity

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

I'm glad that all these commentors are engaging in good faith as usual! Thank you youtube chat, love yall

[@Lightja_]

Mother Teresa is considered an infallible philanthropist among Christians and also more widely among western cultures dominated by Christianity. She was pro poverty, pro suffering, anti womens rights, a christian scientist (except for herself), and defended accused priests. So, there are plenty of reasons not to be a fan outside of the church. Like a lot of evangelicals who engage in charity, there's a lot of genuine charity given to those in need, but also a lot of manipulation of the vulnerable in the name of evangelism at the same time.

[@florisvangorkum]

I've listened about this subject in a podcast which talked about her in a broader sense. Which confirmed your statements. I'm nearly assuming you're Dutch since it's a Dutch podcast. In case people are wondering: Geschiedenis inside. Good one

[@lolwutinternet]

2:58:52 the batman and phantom of the opera jokes seemed totally above-board, for what it's worth; the batman mention was during a part of the video where she had only removed the part of the mask around the mouth (like batman's mask), and the phantom of the opera mention came after she had removed enough of the mask where it was only covering one half of her face diagonally (like the phantom of the opera's mask) almost everything else up to that point was a reasonable representation of what was actually happening in any given video, but this part at least feels like a stretch to frame it unfavorably

[@lolwutinternet]

3:33:54 and also i do appreciate that even in a video with zero numerical analyses, we are still able to repurpose the statistics-brained take-away of "it's important to label your axes"

[@HenkPekker]

Internet’s so wild right now even Jorbs is catching strays.

[@rosalindchapman9035]

Glad your sticking to your convictions on this.

[@PretendingtoWorkLoL]

I strongly disagree that one time you said Calipers would NOT be good here.

[@lieutenantwaffles50]

How do the powerpoints keep getting longer?! Not that I'm complaining of course :)

[@BaiNaiMai]

Didn't hear about this incident but very excited to have a few more twitch streamers to go watch. Really really frustrating, as a jewish person myself, to see antisemitism conflated with antizionism. Thanks for the extremely thoughtful video, jorbs!

[@StroominPrime]

As much as 8 years ago sounds like some bygone era akin to 1950's america, it was actually not very long ago. I was an adult for years before 2016, and it has been beyond the pale to do blackface long before then. Sure, it existed on the wild frontier of the internet, but it wasn't something the average conscientious person would do in person. Not even for halloween. They knew better and they were older than everyone on that panel (I am not bothering to look it up). I'm not even the type to go after someone for insensitive comments that hard, but glass houses and all.

[@l.p.7585]

i can't believe a person would think 2016 was 'a long time ago' - i know covid is a big delineator for stages of people lives, but culturally, internationally, politically etc we are still 100% in the same conversation as 2016. covid might have even extended the discourse as international travel and cultural differences became more apparent.

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

I'm only an hour in, but yeah, the contrast here is insane. I mean I think edgy humour can be amusing, there's an argument for Ethan's video as being so over the top as to be absurd and satirical of people who do that kind of thing for real (as mentioned, only an hour in, and that's just speculation), but you are absolutely right, and I feel it's way more offensive and not done in a self-reflective, self-disclosive community spirit. It seems *at best* like a cheap laugh, which again I don't think is the worst thing in the world, but seems wildly hypocritical in contrast to what's been said on the panel so far. The difference is pretty clear cut. Thanks for doing this, you remain an inspiration for fairness Jorbs. There's a lot of bad faith takes roaming around in the comments, but I think by and large people appreciate this. Also the terrifying double audio is hilarious sometimes :P

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

When youre in a marginalized community, i feel like these conversations happen all the time, where something you say could be interpreted in bad faith, but in the context, it all makes sense. It's chilling to think that the bannable offense these creators have committed is talking about their culture in the wrong place

[@tiffanyfrost3271]

This sure is a video essay (aspirational). Interestingly, I associate Hawaiian pizza with Hispanic communities. I deliver pizza for a living and the strong majority of Hawaiian pizzas go to Hispanic customers and the majority of Hispanic customers order Hawaiian pizza. The other thing I associate with Hispanic people is that Hispanic customers are overwhelmingly the best tippers.

[@IrateUngulate]

casual 4-hours jorbs talk. My chores are going to go soooo fast

[@IrateUngulate]

also @Jorbs your gray hair & beard are based. I'm envious but I know I'll get there in a few years x)

[@power_mac]

My brain has Jorbs so inextricably linked to generic strategy gaming that I was confused that he didn't recognize the (sometimes) antagonist of Europa Universalis (the Ottoman Empire circa 1544) with 'Turkey'. Upon reflection, I realize he doesn't really play 'historic grand strategy' in general, or EUIV in specific. And of course, expecting folks to understand the national history of every country in the globe is a bit of a failed hope. As is something innocuous like they occupy roughly the same geographic locaiton and share an identical flag can totally be overlooked. But Jorbs is probably from the right generation to be familiar with 'They Might be Giant's seminal work, 'Istanbul (Not Constantinople) ' which clarifies that the renaming of the great city at the heart of the ottoman empire was nobody's business but the Turks! (Edit: This entire post was a bad attempt at humour... I should have been more succinct and say 'Not recognizing the national banner of turkey is a pretty big red flag')

[@charlescampbell7230]

I thoroughly enjoyed both this video and its shorter predecessor. I appreciate the time spent and the book recommendation, but most of all I appreciate your closing concerning the comments. There are many dichotomies in the human experience, my favorite to ruminate on is there are builders and tear-downers. Thank you for being a builder.

[@TheWizardOfTeaIsMe]

I live in a country that also has pretty bad islamophobia (the Netherlands). Dehumanizing and vilifying arabs (as well as other minorities) has become so normalized that when arabs try to resist or speak up against it they aren't taken seriously or vilifyed even more. In contrast, arabs need to be super carefull with what they do or say because it might be used to confirm the assumption that they are inherently dangerous. To feel anger or resentment in that situation is what any human would feel. Please stop upholding systems of oppresion and expecting minorities to passively and quietly let themselves be dehumanized.

[@Soril2010]

That's a Dutchophobic stereotype

[@wookieebacca]

Us Brits catching strays for not eating spicy food. We're curry mad over here 😂

[@ragz5156]

I was worried when i saw the last video got taken down! Esp bc i didnt get to finish it and i thought you were laying out your points coherently and very defensibly.

[@alien5589]

Chick pea propaganda now? I was fine with talking about complex moral issues, but hummus is disgusting.

[@GOAToatoat]

Watched all the way to the end. I agree this stream is not nearly so bad as media has made it to be. That being said, I do not enjoy how Ethan was interrogated far beyond how any of the panelists were (as in, none of their previous videos about their extreme humor/takes were brought into focus). I appreciate your perspective. You have convinced me that the panel itself is not as racist as I had been told. As for Twitch or any of the panelists, I am still unsure. Thanks for your work you did in making a nearly 4 hour dive into the topic.

[@Jorbs]

the entire point of the video is that THIS is the thing the banning happened over. i have included, in full, the content with all their extreme humor and takes that justified them being banned for a month. that's what you just watched, in full. i also began the video by introducing them and bringing up main drama points related to them in the past. if you feel like you've heard even worse things about stuff they've done, can i point out that prior to watching this panel you thought the panel was more racist than this? maybe if you've heard there are even worse things you should go watch them and the content around them and see if they are in fact as extreme as you've been told they are.

[@GOAToatoat]

@Jorbs Well, if the point of the video is specifically this panel and whether or not it was ban worthy, what was the point having an Ethan video from 8 years ago if not to compare the panelists' conduct to Ethan's? Like, Ethan was not in the panel. Why did we spend time looking at his cringe humor completely unrelated to the topic of video?

[@Jorbs]

@@GOAToatoat it was to compare some content the panelists were banned for a month for to some content ethan was not banned for in any way and still has up on his youtube channel.

[@GOAToatoat]

@@Jorbs I see. I agree that they should not have been banned for this panel. Thank you for bringing it to light.

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

1:20:13 my mind: "say golly gee? come on the hunting/fishing trip? swim in the backyard pool?" jorbs: 😈

[@libertyjones3799]

Okay, not a response to the video at large, but rather to the example given at 3:11:36. There's this person who makes the Excel Obstacle Course, and I get videos of him being a badass with Excel all the time on Instagram. Truly, than man is a gamer (aspirational).

[@Plokmin]

As always, another banger from Jorbs (non-derogatory) The baked-in racism that has always nipped at me is the lack of the word "arab" in the US census/ethnic polling.Arabs as a vibe are clearly within America's zeitgeist. Someone could reasonably differentiate a "platonic idea of an arab" from "platonic idea of a white/black/hispanic/native/(south) asian person" ,but despite that there's *still* no way to indicate anything remotely as broad/accurate as Arab on the census. This isn't solely an issue with Arabs of course (original comment had a URL pointing to a pewresearch article, here's the title: "Only about half of Americans say census questions reflect their identity very well"), and I don't even have a good solution. Nevertheless *~it would be nice to be represented in polls asking who i/we am/are~* and also *~it would be nice to know the polls never get used for nefarious purposes~* (aspirational)

[@moogobIin]

Alright, I've finished your video after watching it on and off for a while and I'd like to share some (admittedly unrequested) feedback regarding how Ethan Klein's video was presented. Overall, this video does a great job dispelling any thought in the impartial viewer's (my) mind that there was nothing at all ban-worthy around that original convention. It baffles me that Twitch somehow found it possible to ban them all for a month, meanwhile Asmongold was banned for two weeks for saying the things that he said. It'd be funny if the implications weren't so bad and it didn't cost everyone so much money in opportunity cost. That being said, I do not think including Ethan's entire video was effective rhetorically and it only really served to make the video longer than it needed to be. By showing the original Twitch live event video and supplementing it with extra context, you've already created an aid for the unaware, and demonstrated to detractors that you have seen the entire video and understand the entire video. It is not useless to show off the frankly outlandish blight that Ethan's video is, but there's nothing that noteworthy to present besides how far the escalation goes (the black food coloring still bewilders me.) You mostly just get it after he is so brazen as to put on the face mask with the attitude he did. All of the stuff about how he treats his family meant nothing to me considering it was a KZbin video, to be honest. I think the example you give later on with Ben and his tweet so as to explain his position in their thumbnail was far more succinct and rhetorically effective and ideally you could've done similar things with Ethan, for example, throughout the podcast showing bad takes of his whatever about the presentation of other cultures, I don't know. I wouldn't tell anyone to shoulder the burden of consuming more h3h3 content after slogging through that video, and overall I don't think his inclusion was necessary.

[@Johnhamsta]

Was hoping you'd get this reuploaded!

[@Plokmin]

Suuuper tangent (still watching, about halfway through) I’ve never seen anyone use “n.b” or “f.x” before you would it be fair to mentally swap these abbreviations with “by the way” and “for example” whenever you use them?

[@Jorbs]

n.b. means ~"take special notice", it's a latin phrase "nota bene". f.x. means "for example".

[@PriyaDwarakanath]

As always, thank you for doing the hard things in thoughtful ways that seek to invite critical thought

[@mitchellburr7825]

1:57:59 -- I think you're strawmanning Ethan to some extent here. There's a much more reasonable accusation that the podcast fosters implicit antisemitic views, and Ethan is using the audience's boos as evidence for that implicit bias. Obviously Ethan is very upset and is exaggerating the degree of antisemitism he's accusing them of, which makes things unclear, but if we're trying to be charitable I would think that Ethan is almost always talking about implicit not explicit antisemitism here.

[@NirCohen-i2y]

12:22 saying technically countries don't have a right to exist kind of misses the point, it obviously wasn't said for the technical reason you pointed out. You kind of gloss over this part and ignore the option of a different meaning, one which would make him a terrible person for saying that

[@Jorbs]

bludgeoning people who are active victims of a country with a demand they say it has a right to exist, when countries don't even have rights to exist, is grotesque. israel has stolen his family's land, limited the rights of generations of his family, and bombed cities he has lived in. he cannot safely return to his home because of the actions of israel. of course he doesn't think israel should continue to be the government in charge of what happens in and around palestine and lebanon. he is allowed to think that. people who are oppressed and attacked DO have a right to defend themselves. PEOPLE have rights. he is a person. he and i live in a country where people are allowed to express themselves and where immigrants are allowed to be proud of their homelands, and both of those rights are freely given to me. extend the same empathy and respect the same rights when you look at him.

[@only20frickinletters]

Nir, even as of July, 14% of Israeli Jews still support establishing a single democratic state with full rights for Arabs. That doesn't make someone a terrible person.

[@ItaiS-K]

Nir, even as of July, 14% of Israeli Jews support establishing a single democratic state with full rights for Arabs. That doesn't make someone a terrible person.

[@NirCohen-i2y]

@@Jorbs you are answering a point i have not made. I don't demand him to say anything about the right to exist, because as you said, technically no country has the right to exist. But when I hear someone say "israel doesn't have the right to exist" (ignoring the fact that this implies he thinks other countries DO have a right) I think about what he actually means, and to me that seems he is asking for the end of the Israeli country and it government, army and facilities, which in turn would lead to the death of all Israeli and Jewish people who live here, by terror organizations nearby, or by immigrating to other countries and facing antisemitism which sadly still exists in a lot of parts of this world. This is a reality I dislike a lot. Israel is not bombing Lebanon to kill civilians. It is happening because lebanon has been firing drones and missiles non stop, which are aimed at all people who live in israel, whether it be jews or Druze, civilians or army. That said, I don't agree with all of israel's actions, and a lot of them are terrible. But you cannot look at the situation through a narrow point of view. Israel has looked for peace from the moment of it's creation, when they agreed to the UN Partition Plan, later the peace agreements with egypt and jordan and the Oslo accords. This whole situation is very complicated, with a lot of death and loss for both sides, and i really wish this situation will end as quickly as possible, so we could all live peaceful and happy lives, and i am optimistic such a reality is possible. All of this doesn't mean i don't think he doesn't have freedom of speech, a right to be proud of his country, or that i don't mourn his losses. I understand his point of view, and how terrible it is to lose the people close to you due to seemingly meaningless war. But i think saying the phrase "israel doesn't have a right to exist" carries a terrible intention i cannot ignore.

[@NirCohen-i2y]

@@ItaiS-K I don't understand how this relates to what i said.

[@aigdou]

Hi Jorbs, I appreciate you including the entire video context in this. As an arab canadian these type of outrage events are always so exhausting that I find that I dont have the strength to watch the full context for every similar event that occurs. This one bothered me a lot so thank you for creating honestly a safe space for me to ingest the full context, thanks again Jorbs

[@drewzagieboylo5721]

I do wish more people (on the internet or not, myself included) could express their values and analysis of a challenging reality as well as you. Thanks for the content and being a good person.

[@arcaneire]

Hey, I really like your presentation style videos whether they be social commentary or gaming related. Is there a playlist of all of them somewhere?

[@Jorbs]

yeah, it's a little loose but they're all in here: kzbin.info/aero/PLesIE_v8rF219O7UaVnFZY8l4AxzlbbWU (they become less and less about slay the spire over time lol).

[@Plokmin]

Spire Chats (Aspirational)

[@ellabar252]

When people say "Israel has no right to exist", they're not talking about international law. I think it's disingenuous to claim that that's what Kapri means. What he means is that Israel has lost its moral right to exist, which*is* a controversial statement. That's why people take umbridge with it, not because they misunderstand international law. - long time channel member

[@Jorbs]

countries don't have a moral right to exist. they either exist or they don't. humans DO have moral rights to exist. the reason "right to exist" is brought up is that it is being used to overshadow the rights of humans who are inconvenient to israel. i.e. israel is an apartheid state and many of the people who live in it are denied basic rights. those humans have a right to exist. israel claiming a similar "right to exist" is a rhetorical trick to try to legitimize choosing it, a country, over them, human beings. so, building a new town over someone's home, or repossessing someone's home from them, gets framed as their right to exist, to have a home, to own property, etc., being less important than israel's right to exist, even though israel is a country and countries do not have a right to exist.

[@ellabar252]

@Jorbs I agree, but most people don't see it that way. In their mind, countries can earn and lose a moral/ethica) right to exist. Also I'm obviously pro peace and pro Palestine, as well as pro Israel. Fuck this war, fuck Netanyahu and his ilk, fuck Hamas, and thanks for speaking on this.

[@essi-]

@@ellabar252 When I hear this statement, especially by someone who has family in the area, I'd imagine their meaning to be something akin to "the decision about two generations ago to allow a state to be created in a location that required it to hollow out an existing settlement (that even then objected to the creation of said state) was a mistake". And I understand that a person with personal stakes in the state will take umbridge with that, but is it really inflammatory for that reason?

[@isaacolson1452]

Thank you for putting in so much effort and thought into this. I found it helped me sort out some of my jumbled thoughts and emotions in the wake of the election (even though that obviously wasn't the primary topic of discussion here).

[@r4diocr4b]

1:20:04 an example could be "who's invited to the cook out" there's a dropout (streaming service) sketch about it , im sure you can find clips on yt

[@l.p.7585]

thanks for putting me onto that hummus blink taste test vid yorbs that's the kind of quality stuff im here for. also great vid, great discussion. In australia i think it's fair to say the mainstream culture has been heavily influenced by many immigrant cultures but especially lebanese and turkish in the last few decades, and it's so odd to see these kinds of jokes and banter demonised as racist or antisemetic, when it feels absolutely commonplace and normal here. People have different background and different cultural backgrounds and severities. we all talk shit and take the piss and, exactly as you described, is someone expresses genuine offence or draws a line, it's an easy as acknowledging and respecting the boundary and changing topic to talk shit about something else

[@tomjackal5708]

I think a possible neutral spin on the "Ethan looks scary" comment might be that she was reacting to his facial expressions during recording. I haven't watched much of their other content so I don't know how often he makes faces like that or what her reactions to it usually are, but he was emoting a more intense version of a 😬 face

[@1711ll]

Love the PowerPoints ! Would you consider making a playlist of them in your chanel ? Also thank you for sticking up to your convictions !

[@Wolfiwolfpie]

Liking and commenting because I like and applaud this content and the algorithm loves it. I may have more to comment at the end of the video!

[@Wolfiwolfpie]

Ok, so I think one of the most shocking and gross feeling parts (to me, obviously) from Ethan's video where he talks about the 'true beauty of black'. The entire video was about how awful, scary, disgusting and dirty using these black products were. It seems like this is in direct relation to the movement that was trying to indiuce more black positivity into the wider media, and here Ethan is making a mockery of all of that. In relation to what Jorbs brought up earlier, about how many arab actors you can think of in the top 100 actors section. It is either so extremely ignorant of his privilige, having white identites be so tied to acceptance and prestige, or just intentionally disrespectful. Like, why? Why is it important to punch down here? He clearly knows what he's doing and what it looks like, he was told multiple times. I want to be clear here, I have made stupid mistakes and said things jokingly that have very much been ignorant of my position. It happens. But it does say something to know that this is still up and on his channel. If I'm being charitable, maybe I could argue that it would be inauthentic to remove his worst moments, but there should probably be some sort of acknowledgement of that in the video, the title or the description. It's so sad that one of these things got someone removed from a platform, and it wasn't the one trying to profit off the perception of doing blackface. Like, that's what this was, it's very clear it was, he acknowledges instantly that it's going to be seen this way, because it is. It might not be done with the intention of creating a racist stereotype, but it is without a doubt, being done as content to use the controvertial image of it to bring in viewers and make 'comedic' statements. Sorry for the rant. Just, sad about the contrast in behavioural standards and percieved acceptability.

[@midn8588]

2:52:10 Unfortunately, we have reached a point where this talent is possessed by a large percentage of the population

[@giantewok]

going to watch the last hour tomorrow when i get more time but so far this has been incredibly based. great job jorbs.

[@ColorfulPockets]

Thanks for this in-depth look. It’s too bad others had to interpret your previous video so uncharitably that making an expanded version made sense, but nonetheless, this was an excellent analysis

[@geologged]

Hi @Jorbs I'm glad I watched your full video because my position did soften on the tier list video, I had only seen about ~1/2 of the panel and I hadnt heard of this black challenge video before - I dont believe the whole panel are antisemitic - I dont think they made the tier list with the explicit intention to be antisemitic - I am more suspicious now of claims of antisemitism by the ADL But, when I watch the section where Ethan gets brought up, my impression is that when they put him in the "loves sabra" tier, they did it because they don't like him. Denims then makes a comment which makes it clear why they dont like him, "you're missing a category for zionist", which is then reinforced by the crowd and the panel. I don't think it's unreasonable to think what they actually meant by zionist is "bad jew" - which is antisemitic. The tier list categories dont need to have concrete definitions where one category is good and another is a racist caricature for that bit in particular to be racist, like you said this is a comedy show, its important to ask what the joke is and why people are laughing. I think the thumbnail gives an extra clue as to whats going on here, its a simplified version of the actual tier list in the video and I find it strange that they felt the need to single out Ethan in "F" tier (not just loves Sabra) and include Ben Shapiro who wasn't even a subject in the video. On Ethan's video, its shitty, and I dont think anyone reasonable should try and defend it. If Im being ultra charitable I would say the joke of the video is on the beauty products themselves, and putting a black face mask on a white person looks racist, then the joke is that Ethan is playing dumb when he's asking why does everyone think its racist (it obviously is). Even with this reading however, the joke is poorly executed and is just _doing_ racism without the intent. Ethan should have received some penalty from the platform on which this was posted and its unfair how he got off scot-free while the panelists received a ban. (At least I assume that was the case, I googled the video and I couldn't see evidence that he was punished for it) But I don't think that makes the comments about Ethan any less antisemtic, or any less deserving of ire. I wouldn't take Ethan as an authority on racial sensitivity, but I would take it seriously when a Jewish person tells me about antisemitism. Anyway, I appreciate your videos Jorbs and the effort this took.

[@carterburgess2337]

I’ve been reading “Behave” by Robert Sapolsky, and he has a chapter in which he discusses commonalities between the thought processes of left wing and right wing people. The common thread that he presents is that both groups have similar knee-jerk, gut reactions. Left wing individuals are the ones who double check that gut feeling. Not that right wing individuals are incapable of doing that - they did so just as well when primed/prompted to do so - it just requires that prompting.

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

I understand the rhetorical reason to bring in the 8 year old Ethan video, but I think it makes your point lose impact because it made it seem as though you had to cherrypick Ethan's online image to find an example of him doing this. Like, there are myriad cases that you could've taken that are more current which show that people are much more willing to presume and interpret that non-white people are racist as compared to white people.

[@Jorbs]

weird. if i had a blackface video which i still had online i would never in a million years consider it unfair for someone to critically draw attention to it.

[@Mother_boards]

If Ethan doesn't stand by the video, he could've taken it down at any point. The fact that it (and the other video that Jorbs shows the thumbnail of) is still publicly available means we must assume that Ethan's still fine with it, unless Ethan himself says otherwise. Also I feel the fact that Ethan made a video like that but still has such a massive following is incredibly indicative of how much less backlash he's faced, and it doesn't really matter that the video is from a while ago.

[@Arnie1000351]

@@Mother_boards I think taking it down can also been seen as an attempt to sweep it under the rug, which might be something they want to avoid.

[@cody7]

Eight years ago was 2016, not 1956. Blackface has been recognized as very blatantly racist for decades at that point. If your stance is that you're all about offensive shock humor, which would explain the black face video, then it would make your point lose all impact when you complain about percieved discrimination against your own identity.

[@undeniablySomeGuy]

​​​​​@@Jorbsi agree with your point

[@rakhdok]

Thanks for sharing your take on this. It is well-thought out and provides a lot of context to the whole incident. These powerpoint videos are quickly becoming my favourites!

[@liampouncy7808]

There's a bunch of comments that I might write for this video, but I just can't help myself with this one. 1:29:40 ... I actually recoiled in offence from this. I want to call you many nasty names, as I now *know* that you hate Brits. I'm very upset. >=[

[@LechPS]

Awesome content. I wish you get 0 negativity for making this. Love you (in platonic non-parasocial way)

[@tiffanyfrost3271]

I have been listing to this video instead of watching and every time you switch to Ethan I think “dang, a midroll ad, those are so annoying”

[@Gamandizer]

Keep preaching truth and love, Jorbs. U da best.

[@crescentmethod]

Thanks for doing what you do Jorbs

[@moogobIin]

2:04:48 jorbs, come onnnnnnnnn, she just shows a lot of teeth when her mouth is open LOL

[@redcube9629]

hi @jorbs, how up are you to debate these views against other content creators. Seems like you’re very well informed and can probably hold yourself against those with slightly opposing views😊

[@bashfulpanda2596]

TBF Frogan added unrepentant after it came across as bad to her audience. I can get why shed feel that way. I can get why shed say that. BUT its really stupid to say an obviously inflammatory statement on a live platform and that was ban worthy. In real life you don't need to be advertiser friendly but on twitch you do. All that said, given her history they probably shouldnt have allowed Frogan to be on a panel at their con. It sucks that the other people on the panel were basically found guilty by association. If this was some late retaliation against Frogan, Twitch should have retaliated appropriately at the first instance. Frogan lost the assumption of good faith in a lot of people's eyes from the Soldiers and other comments she made in the past. It sucks that it seems like these other people are getting caught in the crossfire. It sucks but Id try to professionally distance myself from her after my ban was up. And that sucks, but the whole problem with the content world is that people enmesh the personal and professional in an attempt to be seen as authentic. But there is no job where you can be 100% authentic and that includes streaming.

[@scokerra2]

Bans don't happen in a vacuum though, the context (not just the content) are important to consider when thinking about the "worthiness" of a ban. Maybe it's eaiser to ban people of colour, women, or minorities for reasons possibly including but not limited to: It's the done thing (we've been silencing these groups for eons so it's kinda normal), or loud angry white men won't complain as much about the ban (less backlash on Twitch), or even (something from your comment "Frogan lost the assumption of good faith in a lot of people's eyes") that othering is seen as normal and even brings comfort to groups that can (or even should, and yes this is uncomfortable) feel responsible for the suffering of others, their families and communities. In which people's eyes did she loose faith? I think Americans, possibly white - not people she claims to represent - but people who nontheless have enoumous power over her in many and varied ways, direct and inirect. And the power is the context here that I think is important to consider. Being "advertiser friendly" might actually be another way of saying "being pro (insert American (or other, we can generalise this) ideals here)" and it's so easy to think badly of other people when we judge them from contexts and systems they don't subscribe to. And it's so easy to do that to people the less we have in common with them (and yes, this includes skin colour, and accent, and gender). Much easeir to blame her for "not being advertiser friendly" than to have a serious think about why it should be ok that someone who unrepentantly (to my knowledge) has multiple vidoes of blackface (which is generally accepted to be NOT OK) would seem to be deemed as "advertiser friendly". After all "its really stupid to say [or do] an obviously inflammatory statement on a live platform and [it's] ban worthy", seems only to be true for certain groups of people, and that might be worth thinking about, and making a 4 hour video about.

[@bashfulpanda2596]

@scokerra2 If you say an inflammatory statement about a class of people that's protected by the US government, you should probably catch a ban. That includes race, sex, and veteran status. Granted I get that unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and rules aren't enforced consistently and fairly. Was Frogan more likely to be banned due to minority status? I can't say for sure as I don't have data on ban rates, but common sense agrees with you. I said nothing about H3H3, but yea that was shitty and should have caught a ban as well. I've never really watched H3 so I know less about the history context etc of the clip, but (hot take) blackface should most definitely catch a ban. I don't disagree that their size and relative social privilege likely worked in their favor and contributed to them not being banned when they made that video. The other people on the panel shouldnt have been banned in all likelihood, but there were some other questionable statements like "Never trust a blue eyed arab." There's also a different level of platform on an official panel that comes with increased scrutiny which is just another obfuscating factor here. All in all though, I do agree with what you are saying.

[@csconnor5160]

Hummus?

[@lurro9963]

Im not completely through the vid but for me its interessting that the panel gets postive readings at least proposed. Ethan doesnt get them as far as i see. I think this is kind of the point (also ethans video really seems not thought out well, to say the least).. Non the less this feels weird to me, but im suspecting im falling victim to "false balance". Will have to finish the video and let it sink in Edit: ok, the more i see the harder it gets to find neutral or positive readings for ethan. Questionable is only if this is his worst video and im not gonna binge his content to look for that. As somebody else commented, this video should not be online or have a lot of context/review whatever in its description/title.

[@mitchellburr7825]

2:16:55 -- from what I've seen I don't think that Ethan's claim is that "Loves Sabra" is explicitly meant to be a dog whistle for Jews. It feels more to me like that category is meant to be a stand-in for "people *we* don't like" (which seems true) and that the Ayyrabs podcast has an implicit bias against Jewish people which is being exemplified by how they define that category (which is what the debate here is). Based on what I've seen I don't think that's true, but the set of Sabra being a Jewish company, Ethan being Jewish, and that equating Jews and Zionism is antisemitic, does read to me as credible evidence for suspicion of implicit antisemitism, even if no other evidence is found in the panel. 🤷‍♂️

[@power_mac]

Soooo, your missing the part where the ayyrabs podcast has a Jewish host, and ranked non zionist jews outside of loves sabra tier. Zionism is a Jewish supremacist belief, and is generally comorbid with anti Arab racism. Ethan is a zionist. He's not on in the tier because he's Jewish.

[@dybchamp1777]

great video jorbs, big fan of talking about this situation as a caring human who recognises the statements as comedy and the surrounding context for what it is. it was really disheartening seeing antisemitism being used as a bludgeon to use against marginalised content creators (and hasan, it's all a proxy war against hasan at the end of the day). pairing the clips of the podcast against the h3 video was a great choice. one minor sticking point: is mizkif jewish? google tells me he's italian, and although he did an ancestry test on stream where he *did* come up as 0.6% ashkenazi jewish, i don't think really qualifies. he doesn't seem to engage with judaism culturally as far as i can tell. i don't think it's relevant for your overall points, of which there are Many, but if there's proof for mizkif being jewish asides from the 0.6% ancestry test, I've yet to see it.

[@nicholaslogan6840]

Four hours? Four hours!? Yeah, I have four hours.

[@maninyoutubification]

I really enjoy your perspective and openness when approaching this highly emotional topic, but I feel like you are kind of missing out on the larger context of the whole conflict (hasan and Ethan falling out over antisemitic comments) and the fact that this is just a proxywar of sorts. Thank you so much for sharing your opinion, made me reconsider several stances i had on this whole topic.

[@maninyoutubification]

I would really appreciate you reaching out to destiny/Dancantstream and talking to them about it, I would love to hear that conversation

[@cody7]

Strongly do not recommend reaching out to destiny, noted racist against Palestinians, defender of white people using the n-word, has a weird obsession with Hasan and has regularly used his (destiny's) community to launch mass harassment campaigns agaisnt various communities that support palestine

[@maninyoutubification]

​@@cody7seek and hold allegiance to truth :)

[@potoofu]

​@@cody7 Not talking to or at least looking at what the people like dancantstream or destiny actually claim is the problem with people like Frogan and Hasan is as far removed from the intention of this video, to dig down to the truth, as possible. Instead of actually talking about the critiques you seem to hide behind generalizations and half-truths. If this video was really about discussing and contrasting different content and behaviour then it is a poor attempt at it because its looking at nothing but a strawman of the actual claims of anti-semitism on twitch.

[@Jorbs]

i have absolutely looked at some stuff from destiny and dancantstream; it is very present in communities where content goes viral for calling others racist, inferior, etc. destiny has been problematic for a long time. he is completely banned from the main platform i make content for. he insists on using slurs and dehumanizing and insulting others. i do not have any interest in associating with him, and find it concerning that you'd suggest i do. dan i know less about, but videos i've watched from him follow the typical logical pattern of abusers where a hateful hypothesis is suggested and then clips and segments are taken and interpreted as support for that hypothesis. it is also really weird to me to think that denigrative claims from white men are the appropriate things to listen to to understand who brown women are when we can instead listen to the things the brown women say they are and make observations for ourselves, as i've done in this video.

[@hanibal212]

I was here from the Slay the Spire runs, glad to see this. Glad that you are sticking to this, no matter what people say this is courageous and it shows integrity on your part. 🍉🍉🍉

[@Uberlord1337]

I appreciate the video and the book recommendation. Hope you're doing ok.

[@fourcatsinatrenchcoat]

thanks, Professor Jorb

[@supertoast00]

Wake up babe, new Jorbs lecture just dropped

[@Atat-atatatat]

Thank you

[@adrianoferreiro4041]

Powerpoint content ❤

[@卜仁宁]

Fascinating.

[@jd2165]

If part of your thesis is that Ethan hasn’t faced backlash for his edgy jokes and even specifically this video you’re wrong. He’s lost sponsors, subscribers and gotten banned ad infinitum for the content he’s made. Since then he’s reconciled, apologized, and grown as a content creator. You yourself and everyone who is a detractor of Ethan are proof that he is still facing consequences for the video he’s made. (Deserved) Ethan did not ban those creators, he only called out people who have been bullying him for his beliefs for over a year at this point. His fans ran with it because they know the context from the podcast. You did a deep dive at the start about why your fans could be empathetic to the creators of the tierlist, but you did no such thing for Ethan. I think Ethan is a good person who’s made edgy and racist videos in his past. If a decade later he was still making these videos, there would be no redemption for him I feel but he has steered away from that content and that audience and I respect that. I think you are a good person Jorbs. I believe this video comes from a righteous and brave place in your heart and you are a good person for standing against injustice as you perceive it. I believe the people you are standing up for deserve justice against twitch and the ADL, but not against Ethan. They continue to provoke him and misrepresent his character (in the present not 8 years ago). Once again love you Jorbs never stop with the PowerPoints Two side notes: 1. that picture is not Ethan klein in frogan’s thumbnail lol, and I’m fairly certain it’s his parody twitter acc that uses it. EDIT: the photo is not Ethan but he is using it on his twitter sorry for any confusion 2. Have you seen the bazaar? New pvp, rogue like auto battler, drafting game I think you would really enjoy if you haven’t tried it already.

[@Jorbs]

why does ethan need me to defend him? ethan didn't just get banned from twitch, nor did these content creators hatefully call him a racist. he's a celebrity who was joked about on a content panel by a podcast that usually gets a few thousand views. i am defending the auditorium of people he then called racists in a video he made that's gotten more than 200k views in the last two weeks and has resulted in them being deplatformed. if he's a good person now he should not do shit like that, good people don't do that. request that you edit the claim this is not his official twitter's picture out of your post, as it is untrue.

[@jd2165]

@ I’m not asking that you defend Ethan, but as you have asked me to be empathetic in your video to creators I believe to be in the wrong, I am pointing out that you are not being empathetic towards a man who has been routinely targeted and harassed by these creators and their fans. You don’t need to be impartial or anything, but to ignore Ethan’s motives behind making the video is burying the lead. If I post nothing but jorbs slander for months, and you see me belittle you and reduce you down to some boogeyman in front of a live audience (and they all find it very funny!), how would that make you feel? They pulled the punch this time, but the trauma would still make you flinch. Also as far as the twitter thing is concerned I apologize I haven’t been on there in a minute, it seems he embraced it and claimed that image for himself. Editing my post.

[@only20frickinletters]

"2. Have you seen the bazaar?" That's genuinely the hardest I've laughed in weeks, thanks. I can't imagine a better encapsulation of your comment. Ethan being motivated by feeling attacked for his beliefs is the first sentence of the first slide, so it seems hard for the lede to be buried in the literal lede. How he handled feeling targeted and harassed was with bad character.

[@ItaiS-K]

"2. Have you seen the bazaar?" This made me laugh harder than I have in weeks, thanks. I can't think of a better encapsulation of your comment. That Ethan was motivated by feeling attacked for his beliefs is in the first sentence of the first slide, so it seems hard for the lede to be buried in the lede. How he handled feeling harassed and targeted showed terrible character, directing a hate mob after seeing only a clip.

[@jd2165]

@ a gamer (deragotory) has to do what he can to get the word out 😘. My point about burying the lead was that the clip he reacts to is not the first interaction he’s had with these creators. In a vacuum he probably never even sees the clip or has such a negative reaction. Because he’s been antagonized by everyone on that stage in the past for his religion and beliefs he doesn’t feel the need to give them benefit of the doubt anymore. I don’t think Ethan was correct in his analysis of the clip, but he’s totally in the right to react as this is another dig at him for his beliefs. Just because he’s been a shitty person or he’s a bigger creator doesn’t disqualify him from doing that.

[@emergentc5398]

What about all the people 'canceled' for having a religeous stance on something? Or does it only count when it fits 'the narrative'?

[@MasterMemo]

Having a religious stance is fine until it effects other people. For example, if your religion says that carrots are evil, you're fully free to believe that. But if you try to stop me from having carrots, or try to have me seen as bad, then you're doing a bad thing.

[@Jorbs]

@@tehy123 you've identified the paradox of tolerance, which you are welcome to read about to educate yourself if you'd like. the wikipedia is a decent starting point. identifying the paradox of tolerance is not an own, nor is it identifying something that people who think about how to organize productive inclusive societies haven't thought of before. it's sort of like telling someone trying to dunk a basketball that there is gravity. my suggested solution to the paradox of tolerance is to consider participation in a society to require acceptance of a social contract, and for it to be normal to withdraw the benefits of society from people who fail to adhere to that social contract. for example, in your twitch chat example, presumably rules for the channel are set out. people who do not follow the rules don't get to watch the channel. a twitch channel is a very straightforward example, because there is no difficulty in working out who should decide the rules (the streamer) or what they should be (whatever the streamer would like them to be).

[@Jorbs]

@emergentc5398 i don't understand how this relates to the video.

[@emergentc5398]

​@@Jorbs something is only wrong when someone else does it. We can do no evil, see no evil, speak no evil in fighting evil. We are good, we cannot be evil (evil is opposition).

[@FALCONLICK]

Ethan playing identity politics and playing victim. By identity politics I mean anyone with Hasan = bad. Ethan is not cool and on some crusade shit. With that being said, I would be interested to hear what jorbs has to say on Hassan showing Houthi content. That ain’t kosher.

[@rtgfderty543]

4 hour cope and seethe vid, nice.

[@Shazibee]

Y'all are vibing as hateful and wack rn

[@StroominPrime]

The main criticism of the previous video was that statements were taken out of context. Providing further context is now being used as a mechanism for discarding the contents of the video. Nobody ever cared about context, huh?

[@meisalonowo9064]

Shame, political content on the slay the spire channel. With a reasonable amount of L takes.

[@Plokmin]

I find the implications of this comment to be particularly funny. It gives the impression they were surprised that Jorbs posts this type of content, watched it in its entirety, and despite finding some of the takes to be “L”s, the video didn’t have enough bad takes to call it an unreasonable amount (No attempt to clarify what the L takes are is already amusing in its own right)

[@schurli777]

Me when I’m in a woke competition but my opponent is deckbuilder youtuber 😳😱🤯🫨