One God, Three Persons, Four Views | EPS 2023

Evangelical Philosophical Society Panel: One God, Three Persons, Four Views
Panelists:
Chad McIntosh (presenting on behalf of William Hasker)
William Lane Craig
Beau Branson
Dale Tuggy
Moderator: Tim Stratton
After all four panelists present their respective views they engage one another with direct questions and conversation. Finally, the floor is opened for audience Q&A with the panel.
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[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Dr.Branson with the Orthodox view ☦️🔥🔥

[@sandeeptigga73]

praise the Lord

[@FreethinkingMinistries]

This was one of the scariest and most stressful situations of my life. I loved it!

[@pattube]

Basically: 1. Hypothesis T is how Tuggy defines the Trinity. However, hypothesis T quite arguably misrepresents the Trinity. As such, Tuggy attacks a strawman. 2. In any case, Tuggy's argument against the Trinity assumes that the biblical writers are making statements of identity (rather than statements of predicate) when the biblical writers state, for example, that the Father is God. But why make that assumption? In other words, the crucial basis of Tuggy's entire argument against the Trinity is a modern concept or understanding of identity. However, there's little or no good reason to think that the biblical writers had in mind the modern understanding of identity (e.g. symmetrical relations, transitive relations, reflexive relations) when they spoke about Father, Son, and/or Spirit. That's not to deny that the biblical writers didn't have any concept of identity at all. Only that their understanding of identity isn't equivalent to our modern understanding of identity, which is what Tuggy's argument against the Trinity needs in order to work. Take away the assumption that the biblical writers had a modern concept of identity and Tuggy's entire argument against the Trinity collapses and falls like a house of cards.

[@adamduarte895]

Basically he’s using the wrong analytical framework to analyze this doctrine and leaving ancient context out haha

[@jordandthornburg]

It’s obvious the biblical writers use the word “God” as an identity claim about the father given how it is used. It even functions basically as a name “God so loved the world that he gave his only son….” What evidence do you have they didn’t understand identity as we do?

[@thomas.bobby.g2918]

rectangle = 1 vertical reflection = 3 horizontal reflection = 5 180 rotation = 7 ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 = 3x5x7 Mod 8

[@Deck1014]

Looking forward to Anthony Roger’s review this debate and Dr. Craig’s review. Seems Tuggy doesn’t quite answer questions to Dr. Craig’s satisfaction.

[@LaymanBibleLounge]

I can’t wait to watch this!

[@fletchernorwood445]

This is what i've been waiting for.to see Bill and Dale go at it again!! I believe Dale represented his position very well!

[@choicegospelnetwork]

WHEN Did he Receive the HOLY SPIRIT ?

[@EdwardEarl]

Where can the book be found? I didn't see it on Amazon

[@thomas.bobby.g2918]

TFT ... Trinitarians For Tuggy ... Our Jesus is exclusively human ... Our God is exclusively God

[@winterland3253]

One of the implications of Jesus's words in John 8 is His identifying with the voice in the burning bush in Exodus 3. That passage uses 'Angel of the Lord' and 'God' interchangeably (in every translation I checked). This provides a strong basis for the Angel of the Lord being God. Jesus' self-identification with the voice speaking out of the bush provides the next piece -- Jesus is the Angel of the Lord.

[@SmalltimR]

Any commissioned agent can qualify as the voice of GOD

[@winterland3253]

I don't recall any prophets being referred to as 'the voice of GOD' (I am open to correction on this, but I really can't recall a single example). They bring the words of God, but they themselves are never referred to as such. The Angel of the Lord, who is called God or the Lord directly, is in a different category altogether. Jesus's self-identification as the Exodus 3 voice is a claim to be the Angel of the Lord, who is called God in the text.

[@SmalltimR]

@@winterland3253 _'...because you have not obeyed YHWH’s voice, behold, as soon as you have departed from me, a lion will kill you...'_ 1 Kings 20.36

[@jilesbo9175]

I disagree with many of the comments on this video. Dr. William Lane Craig made a good case for the Trinity. Dr. Tuggy's position was more speculative regarding first and second temple Judaism and how it might relate or not relate to the idea of Trinity. Remember the Father Son and Holy Spirit were ideas coming into focus by the advent of Christ himself. And The Spirit Of The Lord(3rd person of the Trinity) is all over Tanakh. I'd like to seek a formal Debate/Discussion between Dr Craig and Dr. Tuggy. I'm not content to leave the subject here as it were...

[@hotcharizard874]

I think tuggy adressed wlc his trinity model on his website. It comes down to a form of partialism/Arianism

[@trevconn123]

There was a lot of speculation about WHAT God is and not enough about HOW or WHO God is. WE are made in HIS image (Elohim). Genesis 1:26 Let US make man in OUR image. Simply put, WE are triune beings as well. Body-Soul-Spirit. Heart-Mind-Strength. 1st person-2nd Person-3rd Person. God (Father) -Spoke (Logos) -Moved on the face of the waters (Spirit). They are inseparable. God is 1 in Nature/Function and 3 in role/Persons.

[@faithfultoyeshua4576]

Are you three persons

[@trevconn123]

@@faithfultoyeshua4576 Absolutely. And so are you. I am not my heart, my heart is not my mind, and my mind is not my strength. Though my soul, spirit, and mind/body inhabit one another, I do not possess all three at all times. If I am one being entirely, I would not need to love the Lord with my heart, mind, and strength, I would simply need to love Him with my self. As a Christian, if I am to deny myself, what is it that I am denying? I am not three people, but I am most certainly a triune being with three characters or aspects. God may not be three people in the independent sense at all times, though He can be, however He most certainly is a Triune God. Christ does sit on the Right Hand of the Father so they may very well have the ability, unlike myself, to experience individuality within the “Branches/Aspects” of God as Christ did of course die on the Cross and gave up fellowship with the Father temporarily. Don’t confuse persons with aspects. Don’t confuse aspects with selves. God is ONE self/nature, with THREE aspects or Branches of the SAME vine.

[@faithfultoyeshua4576]

@@trevconn123 you aren't three persons but according to you God is three persons. How do you become his image with that difference.. it's persons not branches or aspects. You are rewriting the bible. Now you sre saying Christ doesn't sit on the right hand ok

[@trevconn123]

@@faithfultoyeshua4576 Valid question. Christ DOES sit at the “right hand of the Father” but does the Father have arms or hands as he is SPIRIT? Or is Christ the Father’s “Right Hand Man as a co-equal”? I was careful about my word choice and did not call Him three persons as I referred to Him as three whole aspects. My soul is not my body. My spirit is not my soul. My mind is not my spirit. Just as when I die, I do not cease to exist but my spirit and soul live on until I inhabit a new spiritual/physical body, I have three aspects within what is “I”. While I have a threefold nature, (body/mind, soul, spirit) my own death is when these three natures become separated temporarily. These natures operate both independently and uniformly with one another. God is ONE because of the THREE NOT THREE morphed into ONE. What is a tree? The Braches, the Trunk, or the Roots? All three are of the ONE Tree but a Tree consists of ALL three. A Tree is only a Tree because of what it comprises. Just as God is ONLY God because He comprises the Father Son and Holy Spirit. There is no rewriting the Bible here. John 1:1. John 14:11. Matthew 28:19: We baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We do NOT baptize in the name of God. God actually refers to Elohim which is both a plural and singular word. God comes from the word “YODH” as a part of YHVH. When people say “God” they are usually referring to the Father by the name “God” . When a believer says the word “God” they are referring to the Title of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit much like the word Lord.

[@joecoolmccall]

I wish more of the attendees pushed Tuggy on the topic of soteriology in light of denying the divinity of Christ.

[@brandonduke2114]

Why would Jesus have to be God for atonement to work? That’s not a biblical claim.

[@unitarianapologetics4669]

There’s not a single place that’s teaches the acceptance of a Trinity is necessary for salvation.

[@TreBrickley]

It’s not a deity of Christ or soteriology debate book. Focus.

[@SpaceCadet4Jesus]

​@@brandonduke2114I don't see how atonement could work without Jesus being divine and becoming man. Without that, it's just some innocent man who died by the insistence of jealous religious authority. The father side of his DNA is not via human transmission.

[@jordandthornburg]

@@SpaceCadet4Jesus​​⁠​⁠who decides what works for the atonement? I say God decides so if he says his perfect son can do the job then that settles it for me and I think, objectively. So what evidence is there that that isn’t enough?

[@unitarianapologetics4669]

52:40 "No מוֹשִׁ֖יעַ (savior) but Me" "I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no מוֹשִׁ֖יעַ but Me." Isaiah 43:11 "And again they cried out to the LORD, and He raised up Ehud son of Gera, a left-handed Benjamite, as their מוֹשִׁ֖יעַ." Judges 3:15 "So the LORD gave Israel a מוֹשִׁ֖יעַ, and they escaped the power of the Arameans" 2 Kings 13:5 "When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, He will send them a מוֹשִׁ֖יעַ and defender to rescue them. " Isaiah 19:20 "From the descendants of this man, God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as He promised." Acts 13:23

[@gabrielkovalov8966]

Only difference here is that at those times the people of Israel cried for a saviour and were saved. Jesus did not save the kingdom of judah, it was destroyed after his coming. He did nothing good for the jews.

[@KevC1111]

Tuggy said hes an "unitarian christian". That my friends is what we call an oxymoron.

[@joecoolmccall]

His version is more concerning though. Some that deny the Trinity ascribe divinity to the Son and Holy Spirit...but take a modelistic approach. It's wrong, but I think we still can have a conversation. Tuggy seems to deny the divinity of Christ. That that is quite a different beast.

[@BibliayFe]

100%

[@TreBrickley]

Question-begging.

[@unitarianapologetics4669]

Jesus is a Unitarian. But, you’re not. Let that sink in.

[@navienslavement]

​@@unitarianapologetics4669the sect is flooding

[@trevconn123]

With all due respect and brotherly love it is also clear during this discussion that Tuggy acted the most “smug” with his microexpressions though we are not perfect creatures, the heart reveals all when it comes to the motivations behind this debate. Are we seeking to learn (looking up) or are we proving a point (looking down)?

[@Trr1ppy]

I wouldn't read too much into that, people deal with stress and anxiety differently

[@trevconn123]

@@Trr1ppy I disagree. His spirit did not seem to inhabit the same fruits of the Spirit as other members on the panel. If what he was saying came from a place of Truth and Love, there would be no need for stress and anxiety in the first place.

[@conradhein5446]

@@trevconn123and William calls him a heretic? I find his portion demeaning. Tuggy is probably the most humble guy from my experience listening to his podcasts.

[@Deck1014]

Watch his debates with Anthony Rogers. This debate is super toned down for Tuggy. He still comes off as a bit smug but that could just be how he is.

[@slow2speak]

I think it's unhelpful to speculate what's in a man's heart. To assume his motives based on subjective perception is dangerous. Jesus said we will be judged with the same measure we use. That's scary. Leave Dr. Tuggy to God. If you sense there is a problem, prayer is a better response than judgment.

[@democracyofthedead9282]

Tuggy is the most huggable theologian of all time.

[@theodore8178]

Unrelated: I ike Craig"s argument from math. Also have a hard time imagining that the ancients didnt have an innate concept of identity that includes the indiscriminately & reflexivity of identity.

[@marlonfrometabarreto888]

❤🎉

[@theodore8178]

☦️☦️☦️ none of this apollinarian three headed cerebus god unitarianism or social trinitarianism

[@SSNBN777]

Jesus used the speech style called "illeism", as did all the powerful men of His day. This is the piece of the puzzle missing from every "educated" debate, and would solve the Trinity issue once and for all. At this point, I have to believe the intelligentsia don't want it solved - too much invested to admit they're all wrong.

[@ReasonableFaithOrg]

Illeism would imply that God is a singular person, not tri-personal. Are you saying that God is not in fact tri-personal? - RF Admin

[@SSNBN777]

@@ReasonableFaithOrg The issues I believe need to be solved when being presented with Christ’s use of illeism: 1- Did Jesus reference Himself “in the third person” at all times in the Gospels, with the exception of those few times introducing the Spirit of Truth, Helper, Another Helper, when He abruptly switches from speaking “in the third person” to instead speaking “about a Third Person”? 2 - Or, did Jesus speak in the third person about Himself consistently throughout the Gospels, and never about a Third Person? So I began searching the Scriptures for the Third Person, abandoning all preconceived conclusions, so the Word itself could reveal the truth. I haven't found a Third Person yet, beginning with the very next verses after Jesus introduced the Helper and the Spirit of Truth. Jesus boldly tells us: “ HE will never leave us (John 14:18), HE will manifest HIMSELF to us (John 14:21), HE, and His Father, will come and make a home in us (John 14:23). Where is the Third Person named who alone will be sent as the Helper and Spirit of Truth as the Trinity teaches? How can two Holy Spirits both be God? Because if both are distinctly different, and neither are the other, then why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit by name “Father”? (BTW: What is the name of the Third Person, haven't found one)? Luke 10:21 NASB95 At that very time *_He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit,_* and said, *_"I praise You, O Father,_* … - Jesus said God is “a” Spirit, meaning one Spirit, not two spirits. (John 4:24) - Likewise, why did Jesus claim His Father alone is the only true God? (John 17:3) And why does Apostle Paul claim “The Lord is that Spirit, that it is Jesus Christ (the gift of God) who lives in the Believer, and further calls one a reprobate if they don't understand that? Where's the Third Person as the Spirit? 2 Corinthians 3:17 NASB95 Now the Lord is the Spirit, .. 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV *_Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;_* prove your own selves. *_Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you,_* except ye be reprobates? MacArthur's Legacy Bible footnote claims Ananias and Sapphira lied to the same Yahweh of the Old Testament found in Judges 3:10, which is the Father, and they did not lie to a Third Person: Acts 5:9 LSB Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put *_the Spirit of the Lord_* to the test? … Judges 3:10 LSB *_And the Spirit of Yahweh came upon him,_* and he judged Israel. … In fact, where is the Third Person in relationship with the Father and Son anywhere in Scripture? - Why didn't the Apostle Paul name God as all three: Father, Son and Holy Ghost, instead of proclaiming God only as “God, the Father”, or “God and Father”, meaning only the Father is God? - Why did Jesus say only He alone knows the Father, and only the Father alone knows the Son. Where's the third person? (Luke 10:22) - Why did Jesus say He is the only one who has come down from Heaven if all three must be present at the same time? God, the Father, was in Christ, a Third Person wasn't with the two of them. (John 3:13) - Why did jesus say only two bear witness - Himself and His Father - and not three bear witness? (1John 5:7, in the KJV, is not found in the earliest manuscripts, thus it has been deemed too suspect to be added by almost all other Bible translations). - Why did Jesus say only He and the Father are one? (John 10:30) - Why did Jesus pray for Believers to be one with He and the Father, and not one with the three of them? (John 17:21) - If God's image in mankind is two persons in a holy union of one flesh, why isn't the Godhead likewise two Persons in a holy union of one Spirit? If the Spirit upon the water in Gen 1:2 is the Third Person of a Trinity, then God created the world by and for the Third Person, and not by and through the Word (the preexistent Jesus Christ). - Why does John the Apostle claim our fellowship is ONLY with the Father and the Son and not with three persons? (1John 1:3) - Why is it antichrist to deny only the Father and Son, and not antichrist to deny the Trinity? (1John 2:22) - Why did the Disciples/Apostles disobey God (Matt 28:19) and only baptize in the single name of Jesus? Could it be because “in the name of” actually means “in the authority of” and Jesus is the authority of all three (The Father gave all His authority to Him, He is the Son with all authority, and Jesus is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, according to His own words, and Paul's). Matthew 28:19 NASB95 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, - Why is there never an appearance of a Third Person on the Throne of God anywhere in Scripture - but only the Father and Son? How is it even possible that Apostle John failed to include the Third Person in the Godhead? He would be antichrist. 1 John 5:20 NASB95 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that *_we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life._* Conclusion: There is no Trinity because there is no Third Person. There is only the Father (the one invisible Holy Spirit) and His Son, the ONLY Begotten, the ONLY biological Son of God. Only the Son knows the Father, and the Son is the only one who reveals the Father to us. The Lord Jesus is that Holy Spirit sent from God. (Acts 2:32-33) He always spoke in the third person, never about a Third Person. Matthew 11:27 NASB95 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and *_no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son,_* and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

[@SSNBN777]

My reply to you is not posted. Don't know if you have withheld it. If not I will repost. In the meantime, this is who I believe Jesus is: The First Adam was scientifically created entirely out of the dust of the earth, a son of God by image. The Last Adam was the ONLY begotten Son of God, His exact image. The Most High’s Spirit overshadowed the Virgin and she conceived. God Himself donated 23 pairs of chromosomes to the temporarily mortal body of Jesus (afterall God created DNA/chromosomes), but He also transferred “life in Himself” to His Son, the uncreated essence of Divinity, the incorruptible seed. Jesus is God's only biological Son. Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father; he didn't “know” Mary until after her firstborn Son was delivered. John 5:26 NASB95 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; Adam wasn't made eternal; he would live only so long as He was IN the Presence of God. Jesus Christ is eternal not because He's in the Presence of God, as Adam was, but because HE IS THE PRESENCE OF GOD in human flesh.

[@fluoriteblu2027]

Jesus Christ is the God we can understand. God is the God we can never understand!

[@jordandthornburg]

That is Greek philosophy man with respect, that is not the Bible.

[@fluoriteblu2027]

All right. So when Christ says the Father and I are ONE, what does my God Christ mean?@dthornburg New Testament John 10:30

[@jordandthornburg]

@@fluoriteblu2027He means he and the father are united in purpose, the same thing he means when he uses the same words about Christians in John 17:20-22. Jesus never says we can never understand the father. He says the father and himself are in us Christians.

[@fluoriteblu2027]

I never meant that Christ said what I indeed believe. We as "humans of the visible reality" cannot ever understand God. He is what He is, that's it! Christ the Son tells us about the Father. And only who is God can know God, not us in the flesh. The invisible reality is another discussion, we will recognise God then because of the seed of knowledge (from Christ) we have in us, The Holy Spirit is with us to take us there, hence the Trinity.@@jordandthornburg

[@jordandthornburg]

@@fluoriteblu2027 that sounds like Gnosticism or Greek Philosophy. The Bible doesn’t teach no one can know God. Jesus said the exact oposite in Matthew 11:27.

[@ThoughtDecoder]

Is it Christmas already?

[@theodore8178]

Its pascha or easter may 5th

[@choicegospelnetwork]

Can God still be God without Jesus Christ ??

[@TheJesusNerd40]

Tuggy is entirely wrong. He needs to do actual research instead of pouring out Unitarian punch lines. Judaism has a tradition among rabbis for 3 persons in the Godhead. There was a mystery of the plurality of the Godhead but it was acknowledged by the rabbis of old. Hebrew words yachid and echad are very distinct. The former is absolute mathematical one whereas the latter is plurality in oneness.

[@SmalltimR]

No one worshipped a triune god in all of Bible history - none Likewise, Jesus Christ Himself, of whom we know worshipped in truth, did not worship, teach or preach a triune god ... - needless to say, and while slinging mud at Christian denominations can prove satisfying for discord, the simple truth of the matter is, that there is not one single instance of anyone in Bible history(including Jesus Himself), who is either, teaching, preaching or worshipping a triune god - none And finally, and as though it even needs to be said - true followers(imitators) of Christ are distinguished by their dedication to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ - and we all know without a doubt, that Jesus did not, does not, and will not, command, instruct or direct anyone, into worshipping a triune god and doctrine. PS, anyone past these premises, will consist of shifting our dedication from Jesus Christ to humans - iow, the trinity doctrine

[@johnspartan98]

The first three speakers gave us babble with no Bible. Tuggy comes out as a PhD Philosopher and professor and gives us Bible and no babble. Tuggy mopped the floor with the babblers by using the Bible.

[@bruhmingo]

Too bad he’s completely wrong

[@ACReji]

Quoting Scripture is something even the Devil does...doesn't mean he is right...

[@SmalltimR]

The truth of the matter is very simple - Jesus worshipped in truth, and followers of Christ(Christians), are distinguished by their dedication to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ - and we all know Jesus did not worship, teach or preach a triune god - no one, in all of Bible history ever did such a thing in-fact. That said, it is by this very same principal that false teachings and lies are exposed also - expounding the message, that we must follow Jesus rather than men. No one can go wrong in following Jesus Christ, that is to say; by worshipping, teaching and preaching as Jesus did on earth, as we all get to stand in the truth just as Jesus did - see; _'that they be one, as we are one'_

[@johnspartan98]

@@SmalltimR Yes!

[@StephenItanagar]

Too philosophical🙂

[@andre_theist]

Paul was very positive to Philosophy that has Christ as Fundamental (Acts 17:28 & Col 2:8)

[@faithfultoyeshua4576]

Is Jesus called son figuratively?

[@AstariahJW]

No and that's a huge problem with trinitarian They dont believe in father and son Bible calls that the spirit of the antichrist

[@bruhmingo]

No. He is the son because he is eternally begotten or generated by the Father. This is the orthodox understanding of the relationship between the father and son.

[@SSNBN777]

​@@bruhmingo No disrespect, but I've never understood what that even means - eternally begotten? Is God having eternal relations with the virgin, or did His Spirit overshadow her once, and she conceived a child? To “beget” in Scripture is always used to identify the male parent who donated half of the genetic material to the offspring. The First Adam had no human parents. He was a scientifically created being made entirely of the dust of the earth. He was the first of his kind - a living soul. He lived as long as he remained IN the Presence of God. Jesus had two parents. His flesh came from a virgin, mortal, but the Christ Himself WAS the Word, who WAS in the beginning with God, and WAS God - one indivisible Spirit, two “Persons” (for want of a relatable identifier). The Most High transferred “life in Himself” (the essence of the uncreated Being), to the Son during procreation - the incorruptible seed. Jesus, the Last Adam, was the first of His kind - a life-giving spirit. So Jesus Christ, the Word of God, lives eternally not because He is IN the Presence of God, like the First Adam was - HE IS THE PRESENCE OF GOD (“I and my Father are one”) in human flesh (but not of the fallen nature) through a one time procreation. His Body lives eternally through Resurrection and Glorification. He's the firstborn (only biologically Begotten by God) of the redeemed human race. And so are all who believe in Him a new creation, who will be just like Him, resurrected, glorified and eternal, in the coming Regeneration. John 5:26 NASB95 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

[@truthovertea]

Tuggy was a punching bag in this. Poor guy, Unitarians really trying hard regardless of the serious problems

[@DarrylLParker]

What are the serious problems?

[@truthovertea]

@@DarrylLParker The multiple Gods issue, the two saviors issue, the worship of a mere human rather than God in the flesh, just to name a few.

[@DarrylLParker]

@@truthovertea , by the multiple God's issue, are you by chance referring to "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit"? That's more a Trinitarian issue than a Unitarian issue. Jesus said that his Father is "the only true God" (John 17:3), which is what Unitarians believe.

[@DarrylLParker]

@@truthovertea , as for the two saviors issue, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor 5:19). Tuggy's point is that God is the ultimate Savior who has always worked through men who by extension are saviors because God used them to save people. God used Moses to save the Jews from Egyptian slavery, so Moses was a savior. God raised up Gideon (Judges 6:14), Samson (Judges 6:14) and other judges to save Israel from their enemies. Even Jesus said that he could nothing without the Father and that all of his savior work was God working in and through him. See John 5:19, John 5:30, John 6:38-40, John 7:16, John 8:28, John 10:25, John 10:37-38, John 12:49-50, John 14:10, John 14:24

[@DarrylLParker]

@@truthovertea , as for worshipping Jesus, there is not one passage where Jesus is ever worshipped as God, not even in Revelation 5.

[@antonioreid534]

As a Jew, I find the Unitarian position seems to respect and understand Jewish socio-cultural linguistic idiomatic constructions.

[@shamounian]

and you would be deceived.

[@antonioreid534]

@@shamounianwhat have I been deceived about?

[@jesuschristbiblebiblestudy]

There is only one view. And that is God's view. The Trinity is the Christian viewpoint that God is three distinct, simultaneous persons - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity is biblical. God bless you. Pastor John

[@johnspartan98]

Just so everyone watching this video is aware, no one needs to be a scholar to understand the Bible. The Bible was written in Greek for the common man. Koine Greek! I'm not impressed with anyone but Dale Tuggy in this discussion. I recommend listening to Dale Tuggy. He's the only one with a reasonable common sense working knowledge of what the Bible teaches. He knows it doesn't teach the trinitrine that was first placed in late 4th century creeds after the Roman Emperor chose to force the trinity on the masses in honor of Athanasius who died a year or two earlier. It's why it is known as the Athanasian Creed. WLC is forced to butcher the scriptures to fit his trinity theology and in the process he is in conflict with hundreds of plain unambiguous scriptures.

[@user-wx7yg3uu5u]

)))

[@aperson4057]

I did not like this conversation as it felt like a three on one with Dr. Tuggy. As a result, the other views were hardly debated and needed to be, because though they are all trinitarians, their differences are very real. I would've loved Dr. Branson's view contrasted with Dr. Craig's or Dr. McIntosh's. I think it should've only been them 3 (not to say Dr. Tuggy's insights are not important).

[@AstariahJW]

Trinitarians are never in agreement with each other

[@bruhmingo]

Yes they are. Having a different model of how to articulate something is not disagreement in doctrine.

[@AstariahJW]

@@bruhmingo yeah it is They all have diffrent teachings Apostate christianity are not United Jesus said his deciples would be United Theres so much division in Christendom

[@SmalltimR]

@@bruhmingo As someone's who's been talking with trinitarians for a great number of years now, the conclusion is that many of the so-called mainstream trinitarians today, have no clue what it is that they actually believe-in beyond that or believing in a triune god and doctrine.

[@TreBrickley]

Everyone - Dr. Craig included - hammering Tuggy about the deity of Jesus are entirely missing the point: the debate is about *the trinity* not the deity of Jesus.

[@adamduarte895]

What? Denying Christ’s divinity seems like a pretty important ancillary point

[@Real_LiamOBryan]

@@adamduarte895 It's not even really ancillary, since denying the divinity of Jesus denies Trinity. Yes, the deity of Jesus is not the only issue in the Trinitarianism debate that is important, but it is definitely one of the important issues in the Trinitarianism debate.

[@navienslavement]

Unitarian shill

[@jordandthornburg]

@@adamduarte895it’s an important point. It isn’t the same point. Proving the deity of Christ isn’t proving the trinity.

[@adamduarte895]

@@jordandthornburg it’s part of the evidence for the Trinity bruh 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@livemusic]

No one would ever assume we live on a spinning globe through infinite space if they were not indoctrinated to believe so from a young age. No one has ever experienced rotation or curvature. In the same light, no one would ever jump to the conclusion that God is a trinity of it weren’t for men teaching that. Reading the Bible without such an idea implanted in minds by men would clearly leave people seeing the obvious. So many hundreds upon hundreds of verses clear describe a Father and a distinct Son and a spirit that is of the Father. I can here it now as trinitarians tell me that is correct. That there are distinct persons. And then they say, “but they are one being.” 🤦‍♂️ Trinitarians jump through hoop after hoop as they twist scripture and go so far as to deny the words of Jesus himself. I’ll stick with the text and not base my faith on some men who killed other men who didn’t agree with them. Ironically, the Trinity divides. The trinity denies the Father what he is due. It’s denies the amazing life lived by Christ. For example, if Jesus was God then living a sinless life wouldn’t be a big deal. And it wouldn’t be the same example to men and women that we too should strive to be like him. It seems to me that the vast majority of churches, in fact, almost ignore the Father other than maybe saying “Father” in some prayers. It’s mostly Christ worship. We are told to praise Jesus and rightfully so. But to not give proper worship to the Father because you’re imagining some godhead of three is disrespectful, to say the least. I am so grateful that God opened my eyes to the demonic deception of the Trinity this last year. As when He taught me that I can take the story of creation literally and that God literally sits directly above the solid firmament directly above us, He also showed me I don’t have to look to councils of men to tell me how to reinterpret direct language of the scriptures. When Jesus says his Father is greater and repeats to the Pharisees that he is not God, but the Son, I will take him at his word. Trinitarians, on the other hand, side with the Pharisees who had been looks for a reason to kill the Messiah as they tell me over and over that they wanted to stone him because they knew what he was really saying. I’ll stick with Jesus and his words and not evil men who denied the savior.

[@johnspartan98]

The definition of a person always applied to human beings only, and never to YAHWH who is spirit. Spirit is synonymous with MIND in the Bible. Spirit is a non material entity. The definition of a person used in this conference is a made up one that does not respect the definition of a person that has existed for many hundreds of years. He has altered the definition to include YAHWEH who is spirit, not human. FAIL right from the start. Viewing YAHWEH as a person involves remaking YAHWEH into the image of a man. A person is always a human. His definition is blasphemy against YAHWEH. YAHWE is far above being a person. FAR ABOVE. So why bring YAHWEH down by defining his as a man (person). Left winger are always changing definitions to suit their false beliefs.

[@bruhmingo]

Your fundamental flaw is not listening to the definition of personhood by trinitarians.

[@somerandom3247]

We believe in ONE god. The father, the son, and the holy spirit. ONE

[@DarrylLParker]

You mean, "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit"?

[@conradhein5446]

So who died on the cross?

[@DarrylLParker]

@@conradhein5446 , God's human messiah.

[@bruhmingo]

@@DarrylLParkerJesus claims to be God.

[@aussierob7177]

We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three Persons, the consubstantial Trinity. The divine Persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is Gog, whole and entire . The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, that is by nature one God. The divine persons are really distinct from one another. God is one but not solitary. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being for they are really distinct from one another He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son. They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin. It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds. The divine Unity is Triune The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction pf the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships that relate them to one another. In the relational names of the persons, the Father is related to the Son, the Son is related to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is related to the Father and to the Son. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance .Everything in them is one where there is no opposition of relationship. Because of that unity, the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit. The Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.

[@SUPERHEAVYBOOSTER]

Why should I trust any of these men? If we are to follow the Bible shouldn’t I look to the apostolic church (Acts 15) who had the laying on of hands (Acts 6, 9)?

[@jonathanw1106]

Let us know what you find

[@InvestigadorTJ]

Many lay hands and came up with dif conclusions You have the Calvary chapel which does that then you have the apostolic Christian church then you have the Pentecostals and they differ in views

[@TreBrickley]

If only “the apostolic church” were easy to identify in the modern world.

[@ban_tuo]

Крейг - многобожник.

[@rafaelb7920]

Why?

[@conradhein5446]

By necessity, it is some form of polytheism

[@RandallChase1]

Not at all.

[@navienslavement]

I want to live in a word where tuggy would be jailed for that

[@jonathanw1106]

You do, you just missed it by a few hundred years

[@matthewm7590]

Jailed for what?

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

Shameful comment

[@eastking1157]

”And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.“ ‭‭Luke‬ ‭9‬:‭51‬-‭56‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@brandonduke2114]

Please, continue exposing yourself as not a real follower of Jesus by making threats like that.

[@donaldmonzon1774]

Tuggy's explanations are so complicated... seems to me no one could ever understand scripture properly without his guidance 🤔....I wonder if he has ever heard of ochums razor 🤔....😏

[@DarrylLParker]

There is nothing complicated about Tuggy's arguments that are based on the plain reading of scripture. For example, he points to John 17:3 where Jesus explicitly refers to the Father as "the only true God". What's complicated about that?

[@jordandthornburg]

Seems kind of odd to say that after hearing the trinitarian side, no offense.

[@donaldmonzon1774]

@@jordandthornburg when I was born again I went from atheist to believer in a moment...I knew that scripture was true... that God was real....when Thomas put his hands into Jesus' wounds he KNEW

[@jordandthornburg]

@@donaldmonzon1774 putting your hand into Jesus’s side wouldn’t tell you he is God man. With respect, that doesn’t really make sense. He knew Jesus was truly alive when he did that.

[@donaldmonzon1774]

John 20: 28 !! ...........(John 20:27-31)

[@dannythompson1057]

No, no, no, It’s One God Three roles of relationship or Three manifestations of One God. God is not a Trinity!!! God Bless.

[@jonathanw1106]

That's what a trinity is. Three manifestations (persons) of a single entity

[@thiagoulart]

You just contradicted yourself 😂 God bless

[@pattube]

No, three different "manifestations" of one God would be the heresy of modalism.

[@jonathanw1106]

@pattube sorry I did not mean that in the sense that they are not individually distinct.

[@DarrylLParker]

That's modalism, otherwise known as Sabellianism.