One Month Later: Did ZWIFT RACING SCORE Actually Fix Racing?

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Күн бұрын

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@blackflamesolutions526 2 күн бұрын

Looking not at your numbers but at your 'colours' (time spent in each zone), I think you are already an A rider, you just don't know it yet. I can see way too much blue, green and yellow on your tracker, considering this is a short race. I sh*t you not, I did a 690-1000 race today, 35 minutes, and Training peaks told me I did 7% in Z4, 10% in Z5, 26% in Z6 and 15% in Z7. 14 minutes in Z6 and Z7, but it's an accumulation of a few seconds at a time, lots and lots of times, rather than anything sustained (except the viaduct) You have a far more favourable anaerobic energy system than I do. You're only using it for the end sprint, though. I'm pretty sure that if you drop your cadence and ride a bigger gear, get out of the saddle on those little climbs and focus on 'producing power', picking up speed, then coasting and recovering when you hit the front, you'll start to smash the 'B' field. If you ride at a cadence of 85-90, then INCREASE your cadence each time the pack accelerates, you'll drift backwards and go into the red trying not to get dropped, because the other riders are quickly hitting Z6/7 and generating more speed and momentum, which they 'carry' for longer. I can see this happening with you. A few months ago I was where you are now, always in the saddle, always in the Zwift Cog gear 16/17, only getting out the saddle for the last 200m, and just like you, I had the feeling I am losing ground on the little climbs, and struggling to get back on the wheels after a split in the pack. Nowadays I ride on the 19/20/21 and my race power profile is much more 'jagged', but I am carrying so much more speed. Average cadence is still high 80s, but 1/4 of the race I am in Z1. The climbs I used to get dropped on, I am now reaching the top first on, by hitting gear 21 at the base (trainer difficulty is at 0), standing on the pedals and using 'brute force' rather than high cadence aerobic energy. I sit back down at the top, relax, recover and 'drift' back to mid pack. This is so much easier than trying to 'spin' up from mid pack, losing ground and having to work hard to not get dropped and getting totally out of breath. Honestly, this went against my instinct and everything I had learned from riding and racing outdoors for years (in my 20s, I;m now 45), but this is the secret to Zwift racing, I promise you.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@@blackflamesolutions526 dude that is so fantastic advice, I'll try it, thanks! Pinned!

@blackflamesolutions526 2 күн бұрын

@@RoadtoA Think 'generating power', not 'cycling fast', if that makes sense. This is very different to running.

@LofotenCycling 2 күн бұрын

Hei, I also streamed that race, and its fun to see how it developed. I actually mentioned you on my video hehe. Good effort Adam, my plan was to surprise you and Cameron who can make good sprints, and it held by a small hair. I was getting too much lactate by the end, couldnt hold it 500m longer. Congrats on the channel and the good journety to A.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

Thank you mate, I'll check your video!

@Me_Hall Күн бұрын

Strong ride, m8! Greats numbers, especially considering your illness and knee injury! Looking forward to the continued progress 😊

@RoadtoA Күн бұрын

Thanks Steven! By the way, do you carry your doggo in a backpack? :D

@Me_Hall Күн бұрын

@RoadtoA hahaha yes! Brisket is only 12lbs, so I have a backpack that he fits into whenever I want to take him on a ride 😂😂

@RoadtoA 15 сағат бұрын

@@Me_Hall Your dog's name is BRISKET??! Dude that's so awesome. 😅

@RoadtoA 15 сағат бұрын

I would like to do that too, but it's somewhat more difficult with an Aussie 🤣

@SteakandChains 2 күн бұрын

Great job! You were definitely in a better group than i was in. For my race, i was 5th at 422 but i think that a lot of higher ranked riders were missing.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@@SteakandChains this was 520-690 race;)

@SteakandChains 2 күн бұрын

@ oh I know. The point that I was looking to make is that the group that I was in which maxed at 520 seemed to lack writers of that ability which can also make races either easier or harder depending on who shows up.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@ oh, gotcha! I think it is because each group adjusts to itself. When there are guys really pushing the envelope even the slower guys will be fast.

@SteakandChains 2 күн бұрын

To add, I think one of the problems Zwift is going to have with their new racing score. System is all of the other racing campaigns that don’t use the new scoring system, especially if those racing campaigns attract a lot of higher and elite riders which I believe will leave the regular Zwift races with an imbalance of talent.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@ I believe every race now uses the new racing score (apart from the racing league), no?

@__-fu2dn 2 күн бұрын

Good riding and excellent sprint to finish! I only started zwifting two months ago, so perhaps I don't have the expectations/baggage about where I feel I 'should' be within a category. Zwift considers me to be in pace group B with ZRS of 514. Most races I've done so far I finish in the top 30%, mostly because of a poor sprint, giving me a sense that there is space for improvement, motivating me to train and race more. I am a subscriber, so if the 20W promise is true, I'll blame being bumped up a category squarely on you! 😁 I do like the fact that race organizers can have custom ZRS ranges for their events, fx. the current VirtuSlo series, where C is 425-550, rather than 350-520, allowing for fine tuning to the exact group of people competing after an initial seeding stage

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

Thank you! You should expect those 20W to arrive sometime in the next...future...😂 If you finish consistently in the top 30% it sounds like you are placed perfectly. And what you said is actually possible, for example Tiny Races use different set of bands.

@__-fu2dn 2 күн бұрын

@@RoadtoAYep, tried one round of Tiny races, it was incredibly competitive at the top of the group and only a few people dropping. Finished 25th-30th every time 😂

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@ Tiny races are completely savage.

@Jac77794 13 сағат бұрын

ZRS creates better racing for cat E to B I think the problem is for A as the skill gaps is so much bigger with a category. A low A can maybe to 3.8 to 4 w kg then semipro comes does 5.5 and you have no chance, no matter how good you are are drafting, and timing your sprint.

@blackflamesolutions526 2 күн бұрын

I am an A rider without a sprint. My race score is lower than some of the old C riders who can sprint. If I ride a 690-1000 race I usually finish at the back of the first group with a w/kg average over 4. If I ride a 520-690 race I still finish at the back of the first group, only my w/kg is under 4 and the race feels too easy. I just try to drop as many people as possible (these guys probably complain about sandbaggers from the old 'A' cat ruining their race). My main takeaway is that I need to work on my sprint. Problem with ZRS is that if it was applied to real life races, a domestic US pro who podiums in lots of criteriums would have a higher score than a World Tour pro who finishes the Classics in the main peloton. We all know which is more of an achievement, but algorithms don't.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

"If I ride a 520-690 race I still finish at the back of the first group, only my w/kg is under 4 and the race feels too easy." IMO, if this is the case, you might actually perform better with a better strategy (e.g. by doing a strong attack 2-3 km until the end). I think that if a race feels easy you should have no problem destroying the field before it gets to sprint.

@blackflamesolutions526 2 күн бұрын

@@RoadtoA Tbh i only race the 690-1000 category now, alongside a training schedule prepared by my coach. the old 'B' races are too easy for racing and too hard for 'training;, if that makes sense.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@ absolutely!

@fraserp2377 2 күн бұрын

I agree with you. I like ZRS more than the old cat system because I am someone who is near the top of one cat, and the bottom of the next. I keep getting bumped up and demoted ZRS categories which I enjoy. One race I try for the win and the other I try to hold onto the front group as long as possible. In the old system I believe I would have been stuck in the higher cat and racing would have been less varied.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

Fully agree! :)

@thomaslianee7494 9 сағат бұрын

Still need some tweeking. The old system I would almost every time get over the first hill with the front. Im in the middle group now. To stay with the front you had to push well above 5w/kg to not get dropped on Titans Grove. The front did close to 4w/kg, so actually the same as yours but a category “slower”. W/kg should be taken much more into the race score.

@RoadtoA 9 сағат бұрын

@@thomaslianee7494 don't forget that there are now 5 categories instead of 4 previously, so it makes sense that the skill range has shifted (assuming standard distribution in both systems).;)

@thomaslianee7494 8 сағат бұрын

@ I didn’t forget, just saying w/kg should play a bigger role. Doesn’t make any sense that the top in your race has the same w/kg as the top in my race despite its two different categories

@AndrewBrown-em3ti 2 күн бұрын

Think you will get mixed responses on here to your question. Overall I’m happy that there’s been an attempt to change the system. For me personally it’s been quite negative. I’m at the very bottom of C Cat score and I’m constantly finishing in the last 10% of the field in races. I was able to stay in or close to the front group in most old C races. Plenty of people in the new C Cat who are very good old Bs and. Quite a few As too. I don’t think that I should be in D but C feels far too wide in banding for people like me with very poor punch. Still hoping that over time it will settle down. Still feel that a system based on 1,5 and 20 minute power with score progression would be better. Glad that you feel it’s representative of where you should be, as before I think this will work for some and not others.

@fraserp2377 2 күн бұрын

If you are in the bottom 10% every time surely you can enter the lower ZRS pen when your score drops enough?

@AndrewBrown-em3ti 2 күн бұрын

@ I’m stuck around 355-360 and it’s not moving , still trying in races and don’t want to deliberately look to be downgraded. Think I was down to 352 and ride a TT which bumped me back up to 380….sliding down again now. I’m really happy to see where it goes and what future changes (if any) are made.

@fraserp2377 2 күн бұрын

@@AndrewBrown-em3ti similar for me, i keep bouncing above and below 350. I am quite enjoying the variation of riding in both groups but i get it might not be for everyone.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

Hey mate, don't forget about one more consideration - the current C cat is more like previous low B/high C (as now there are 5 cats instead of previous four, so assuming the standard distribution of riders, skill level in all categories but the Cat 5 should be higher than it previously was). So perhaps you are really where you currently belong (which I can understand isn't fun if you are ending in the tail). Like @fraserp2377 said, you should get eventually drop to your true level if you are ending in the last 10% every time. If you aren't dropping, it sounds like you hit your personal ZRS bottom that is calculated by your max 30s and 10 min efforts - in which case I would guess you have more in yourself than you think (perhaps can push harder, perhaps can rest better/more, etc.). Keep going, you're going to push through eventually!

@AndrewBrown-em3ti Күн бұрын

@@RoadtoA I’ve been in the old B cat a few times and this feels similar. My lunch on Zwift Power is around 55% and I have pretty poor 1 minute power. I ride RGV yesterday and hung on until the aquaduct. I was around 2/3 seconds off the front group going over the top but couldn’t get back on. It’s the punchy climbs that kill me. My 20 minute is around 3.4w/kg and I can do that in a TT, just can’t sprint or kick over the rollers. Not complaining, it’s the type of rider I am.

@falkenjaeger-u2u 2 күн бұрын

Racing numbers have plummeted since they added ZRS across all categories. A is completely dead now. Even in the summer the numbers were a lot higher. Tour of Watopia has certainly an impact, but the numbers are also nothing compared to one year ago. Racers are moving to other platforms and outdoor riders are not returning due to price increase. Zwift has to get their shit together.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

Interesting points! To be honest, I would say the main impact is the Community Racing festival - when there are new races every day, people will spread across the selection because everyone has different course preferences. When people have only one choice of course (speaking about ZRacing) they have more opportunities to gather around a specific timeslot.

@talonlan 2 күн бұрын

I don't like that the difference in race finishing times in the current system, ignoring the top 2 and bottom 2 there can easily be 6-7 minutes in a 30 minute race. For me my race score is starting to settle down now but as a person who had only just got promoted to the old cat C I was amazed I got a starting score of 470 as that put me as a high cat C low cat B rider which I know I clearly wasn't. since it has been introduced I have raced once a week and consistently finish in the bottom quarter of the 350-520 where as my initial seeding should have seen me in the top half comfortably. I am now down to 408 which is probably roughly where I should have been initially. I am hopeful I can now start to level out and not feel frustrated after every race seeing my score plummet further and further.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

I hope you get to enjoy racing again! Thanks for sharing mate!

@cgmlcs 2 күн бұрын

The zwift racing score is a complete failure for me. I'm 581 and it's keeping me in A cat... It makes no sense. Great sprint.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@@cgmlcs wait what? How is that possible? You mean you cannot race in the second racing score category with 581 rating?

@talonlan 2 күн бұрын

I feel I should be in a cat lower than where I am, whenever I look at zwift power I still wouldn't get near a podium in the 180-350 cat but I am in the 350-520 and I don't think my initial seeding will allow me to drop far enough to get in it ( I will not try to deliberately tank my score as that is not good sport )

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@ I respect that. Would you say that you perform better in some races (maybe climbing races, sprint races etc.)? Is there a chance that you are currently racing races that are not "your thing"?

@forest7424 Күн бұрын

Sounds like you're at where you're supposed to be. If you race enough you'll drop with poor results. If you are stuck and mid pack every race that's a bingo.

@cgmlcs 21 сағат бұрын

@@RoadtoAthat is exactly correct, I am not allowed to race any category other than A in category enforced races. I’m a good B category rider , but I get dropped at the first climb in A category and usually finish many minutes behind the winner.

@SRK5227 2 күн бұрын

Not too bad, but you could have taken another half dozen places if you'd started your sprint 100 m earlier. And as for the 20 W for subscribing, I hope that's a permanent increase in my FTP!

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

@@SRK5227 hehe, that 20 w is coming! Sooner or later that is. 😂 Yeah this was not my best timed sprint but I was still a little hesitant to put too much stress on the knee after my crash. I could have but then again at the time I didn't really know.

@RoadtoA 2 күн бұрын

I imagine there might be a lot of disagreement with my evaluation. What has been the experience like for you? Do you feel it's fair now? What do you think Zwift could do to improve Racing Score? Let me know in the comments!

@gordon7904 21 сағат бұрын

They are due to release a couple updates in the next few weeks that hopefully fixes some of the issues with bad seed values and some anti-tanking measures. Hopefully that will go a way to stop some of the complaints. I think for 80% of riders it's probably not bad but there is a significant number of riders that are having poorer experiences.

@dawncourage1 16 сағат бұрын

I was a struggling C in mixed , a middling C in women's. I'm now towards the top of E and I'm getting some great racing there. I'm not winning but getting a great workout and staying in the pack. I've no sprint .