One of the BIGGEST differences between old and new fighting games.

[@stuart5824]

It's cool to hear your thoughts on this subject. I started truly playing fighting games with Xrd Sign and for a good while all I could ever do in online lobbies was block. When pressure is so safe and powerful because of plus frames, you quickly learn as a new player that pressing buttons is effectively impossible a lot of the time without doing your research. A given player's 'turn' in Xrd was a lot longer, and it lead to gameplay that was frankly tedious to sit through without a good knowledge base of your opponent's options. I distinctly remember the hell that was dealing with Ramlethal as a noob and basically not getting to play at all. And you can see in their design philosophy how radically they changed her - they're obviously moving away from that style of gameplay. I think you're (justifiably) feeling it more acutely as a Millia player because she's one of those harder hit by the change - part of her whole appeal out of the cast was how you could say 'it's my turn now' once you got in and have safe offensive options - obviously not everyone in the cast had that level of mix. It feels powerful, but - as you said - it is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of that kind of pressure as a novice. I'm sure not everyone experiences things the same way, but I have always found that feeling of helplessness/powerlessness on defense to be a MUCH more negative emotion than the mild frustration of an offensive option going wrong, and I suspect that it's primarily that balance of emotions that ArcSys is aiming to adjust with their design changes. I'd also argue that one of the biggest and most interesting consequences of the change in style is that it allows people who are new to fighting games to get right into the mental game (which is for many the most engaging part) without a big knowledge barrier in their way. You can recognize your opponents patterns and make reads in Strive with a minimum of knowledge and research - much less anyway than required in Xrd. I am anxious about what they'll do to Slayer in Strive (assuming he'll be added sometime before 2030). Maybe I won't appreciate the game as much when it's my favourite character that feels completely different, but for now I'm enjoying Strive a lot for what it is. Probably because I'm still basically a fighting game novice in the grand scheme of things myself.

[@minty2156]

I definitely feel what LK's saying. I feel way more comfortable pressuring in some older games where i can just lean on my plus frames. Plus close slashes in strive are my lifeline, lol

[@taylorbee4010]

I feel this between super turbo and Street Fighter 4 a lot of the time and even Street Fighter 4 and 3rd strike. You're often a lot more plus

[@CrowsofAcheron]

Considering what you said about everything being minus, that's probably why characters with invincible dps feel really strong in this game. The more gaps in pressure, the more opportunities for beligerant dps.

[@boredomkiller99]

Disagree, plus frames don't make DPs less effective, if anything it makes them more valuable because DP only needs a 1 frame gap. The reason Strive DPs are so good is due to worse defensive options, more predictable offensive situations and higher reward. Sol gets a dp in Xrd? Gets in minor damage and knock down. Maybe get a small air combo mid screen with RC or a big corner combo. Sol gets a DP in Strive with meter? You might of just died. Then you also have things like teching. Get hit by chipps beta blade? Cool just recover in the air no biggie you'll get them next time. In strive you get knock down across the screen abd now chipp is running around high on cocaine, good luck.

[@Lykast]

This video is so big brain. Took me a while to understand it. But I never looked at it like this. Thanks man.

[@eduardoserpa1682]

Glad to see you finally gathered your thoughts on the matter. Coming from BlazBlue and UNI, it's kind of what I expected it to be, and it's something I think I like as a casual player. I can definitely see why it can drive people mad, though.

[@easygoingdude9990]

This is an interesting conversation. Coming from tekken I was able adjust to strive pretty easily because I didn't have to radically change the way I play or look at the game.

[@hctaz]

Hmmm... I'm really glad you made this video because I didn't understand what you were referring to before. If you read this comment and feel like replying, PLEASE feel free to correct me. I want to understand this aspect more, because I want to be able to effectively explain what I like and don't like about fighting games more than just saying "Uhh... I dunno Xrd is fast and stuff." If anything is wrong, tell me. I didn't have very much experience with past GG games. I came from Melee and Soul Calibur. I've played Strive A TON and put in the hours to learn the mechanics the same way I did with Smash, but I'm still learning a lot about Xrd and other GG games. This makes a lot of sense to me, and I realized why Strive's offense feels more limited than Xrd immediately when you showed me Millia's 2P is plus. Because you're plus, (and like you mentioned in your video) you feel like you're in a more powerful position. I feel like those plus frames are what allows you to go for interesting options since your opponent HAS to respect the plus frames. Mashing just doesn't work against plus frames. I know they've sorta replaced this with the ability to delay your gatlings in Strive so that you can essentially turn things into frame traps when they otherwise would not be. I think this is one of the reasons I tend to block so much in Strive. There's less opportunity for you to be able to try to escape or jump or backdash because your opponent can simply delay their gatling and turn their move into a manually timed frame trap. From what I'm understanding by your explanation of Xrd, it sounds like there is no variable timing in gatling cancels? If that's the case, that would mean that your opponent would need to commit to using a different attack if they want to go for a frame trap instead of simply being able to turn anything into one. I think both of these things create avenues for player expression within a certain character as well. You might run into a player who likes to use frame traps first and get weird with it, or a player who likes to keep you locked down in tight block strings first and then later busts out the frame traps, OR a player who likes to abuse their plus frames to scare you into blocking long enough for them to get fake block pressure on you or open you up with an overhead. So like one character can have multiple different things that they can do from simply making somebody block a 2P which is CRAZY. If you're trying to make somebody block a punch in Strive, then you're not clever; you're just desperate lol. I also think this is a reason why opponent's tend to turtle up in Strive. Since things are minus, most characters are going to have to let you go eventually. The risk/reward for simply turtling is skewed. I think Leo in backturn is a GREAT example of this actually. Because he's plus in your face OR has ways to make himself plus OR has a parry AND he absolutely can keep beating you up with constant mixes until you make him stop, the game actually gives you a BIG reason to stop turtling and do something. If you just keep blocking against Leo in backturn, you're going to get opened up. Even against Chipp you just kinda block low because you can simply react to his overheads, crossups, and command grab. Not with Leo so much. Leo in back turn makes me feel like I'm blocking against an Xrd character. It's that feeling of, "Oh shit, I HAVE to do something to get out of here or this is going to be bad." It forces the defender to interact AND provides the attacker with the opportunity to do something interesting with their offense. I think the speed of the move also has a part to play in this as well as it gives your opponent less time to recognize that they've blocked something and need to react to a possible mix. Punches are generally fast moves with lower blockstun. Ultimately, I think this is a BIG reason why people have begun to discuss whether or not defense is weak in Strive. It's not just that defense is necessarily weak, but defense needed to be weaker than in past games because offense is also weaker than in past games. My hypothesis is that, because offense has lost a lot of options and most attacks are minus on block now, defense had to lose an equal amount of options and strength to keep the balance the same as in past GG games. You feel like you can't do anything on defense because they had to nerf defense to match the nerfed offense, otherwise defense would be stronger relative to past GG games.

[@DragonflySwamp]

"From what I'm understanding by your explanation of Xrd, it sounds like there is no variable timing in gatling cancels?" No, there is. Most characters have gatling windows tied to their moves' active frames, which means they're smaller than the windows in Strive, but there is still variance from manual delays. Some moves intentionally have large gatling windows, and some quirks of the gatling system give other options (multi-hit moves can be cancelled at any point after they connect, even if there's a huge gap of non-active frames between two hits). "You might run into a player who likes to use frame traps first and get weird with it, or a player who likes to keep you locked down in tight block strings first and then later busts out the frame traps," What do you think a frame trap is vs a tight blockstring? If you mean airtight blockstrings that literally don't have any gaps, then doing them is almost a waste of time since you don't give your opponent any chance to hang himself. It can be usful to do something like that to push your opponent out of the corner or to catch your breath, but it's not very useful as a pressure option unless you're setting up a special move or an IAD. "I think the speed of the move also has a part to play in this as well as it gives your opponent less time to recognize that they've blocked something and need to react to a possible mix" Yeah. There are a lot of moves in Xrd and +R that have minimal blockstun, which means they can be used to catch delay mashing really well - by the time your opponent reacts to the first move, he's already passed the point where he could have interrupted. There are also some moves (Jam 5K, Slayer 2H) which are hardcoded to have less hitstop than usual, so reacting to them is effectively impossible. It's also worth noting that literal monkey mashing of just 2P > 2P > 2P is usually awful as a defensive option in older GG because it's so easy for a gatling to have a small numerical gap or to be a trap based on distance. I very rarely meet people who literally just mash all the time regardless of the distances between the characters. You make an interesting point about Strive's defence being weaker to match the offence being weaker. Stuff like that is probably one of the reasons I don't want to play Strive since I'd rather have the various options and the freedom to use them rightly or wrongly.

[@cloudropis]

>Mashing just doesn't work against plus frames in airdashers/anime games they do, it's the main defensive tool against pressure resets/tick throws. The "don't mash when they are plus" comes mostly from footsie games like SF where you are expected to react and break the throw if they tick throw, airdashers usually have too tiny tech windows to do that - you have to gamble on the mash, if you can't use any of the usually generous universal mechanics like FD >I think this is one of the reasons I tend to block so much in Strive As you know, the mixup is frametrap/throw (or pressure reset). If you are not in range of getting thrown, there's no mixup, and you have no reason to not just block and wait their pressure out. Strive is a game that, without meter, really doesn't want you to reset pressure easily or enforce other ways to open people up like high/lows, so pressure resets are on the slow end of the spectrum, IAD resets are much more reactable and there's less JC normals from which to do them in the first place. If you block Ky's f.s, and he has no meter, what can he do to open you up? Foudre Arc is slow and can even end his turn, he can't jump cancel, a half screen run up to throw you starting from a -5 situation is a slapstick sketch. You tend to block so much in Strive because you subconsciously already mapped out the risk/reward of the situation, and realized that neutral is gonna come back sooner rather than later >it sounds like there is no variable timing in gatling cancels I haven't played a lot of GG chars because it used to be a character specialist affair, but i'm gonna say yes. You had chars who specifically subverted that expectation, like Anji, but it used to be a game where if Ky pressures you with c.s 5H, that can't frametrap - he has to cancel ASAP to get a natural blockstring, which can't frametrap, if he tried to delay it the window would disappear and the 5H wouldn't come out at all. Longer cancel windows in the vein of French Bread games are a Strive thing, which partially sort of maybe take the brakes off. As you surmised, long cancel windows > can threaten a frametrap for longer > opponent can't clearly recognize a point from which he's safe to mash, so he keeps blocking > you manage to run up and reset pressure from a move that's -7. You can see Kizziekay do it a lot with ky's 6H for example. It's like Melty Blood... Except you don't have rebeats to break the linearity of pressure, and leaving huge gaps for frametraps pushes you further out instead of keeping you in (cue release Ky's Stun Dipper not connecting both hits) >I think both of these things create avenues for player expression within a certain character as well. it's definitely something that people will have to make more use of and explore, otherwise pressure will always be wack in this game. I think calling it a huge venue of expression is too much, unless they have a DP you can leave huge gaps for frametraps for free, and you should, no point in keeping things tight. Doing something like Melty, where leaving gigantic gaps people could mash out of, keeps you closer, would add more variance to this dynamic. Overall, the number of options is flat out smaller compared to the older games >[Leo being strong] Yes, that's why people praise chars that "feel like playing Xrd in Strive", those peeps just have a lot of ways to open you up while others are stuck with very slow pressure resets or throws from comical distances. Even Sol, he "just" puts you in the same boring strike/throw mixup, but boy does he do it well - he cuts down defense to mash/not mash, which is pretty shallow and super skewed in his favor >[why was defense made weak] I think the crux of it was caused by deciding to do away with IB changing your advantage on block. We could categorize a lot of stuff in oldGG as existing in two planes, "almost overbearingly good" if you don't IB, "meh" if you do, point being that doing it (IB) was no easy task. With no oldIB, Strive's stuff had to exist in only one plane, and they (as it makes sense to do) picked the second. So now you get a lot of tools that are just "meh", and mostly work by crossing your fingers, closing your eyes and whispering "mental stack, mental stack, mental stack" to yourself (Ky's FA, Leo's crossup during blockstrings, everything Anji etc)

[@DragonflySwamp]

@@cloudropis It's impressive how every single time anyone discusses GG, someone who doesn't play it is compelled to write so much.

[@hctaz]

@@DragonflySwamp not sure if you’re referring to me, the person you’re replying to, or both, but I wouldn’t say that I don’t play GG. I was only introduced the series by my sister in response the announcement of Dragonball FighterZ as I thought that game looked really cool. She showed me Rev 2, but i didn’t have a lot of time to dedicate to playing the game, and I could tell it needed a TON of dedication to learn. I did, however, watch an absolute shit ton of Xrd tournament footage. Despite not having played the game to understand the intricacies, I immediately could tell I did not like the way Strive played as much compared to Xrd. I played a bunch of Strive while going back to play and watch Xrd after multi hour sessions of Strive in hopes of figuring out why offense and defense felt so different more so than just the gatling change. I am not familiar with the intricacies of Xrd or past games, but that’s why I asked for feedback :) I want to understand if what I’m writing makes sense or not. I want to understand what made the old games so beloved so I can be part of the newb crowd who is actually fighting for positive changes that will make the old blood happier instead of merely being like, “I dunno this game is fun who cares?” Part of that is because I’ve at least seen a ton of high level Xrd footage I’m sure, and I’ve gone back and played a lot more of Xrd after Strive allowed me to get a grasp on what the fuck was happening LOL Xrd just really had too much for me to dive in and feel like I was having fun playing the game. It’s hard to go from mid-high level Smash Melee (or any fighting game) to another series/genre of fighter because you’re so used to knowing how everything works. “Just play the game and don’t worry about all the intricacies,” doesn’t work when you’re coming from another game as a legit competitor. I do think Strive has taught me enough of the basics to where I can now play Xrd without feeling as bad.

[@cloudropis]

@@DragonflySwamp what did i say that doesn't fit? Outside of exaggerating by calling IBed options "meh"

[@Nyagro]

Appreciate your insight and I can agree on many parts. My biggest gripe about games with so many minus frames is that I feel like I have to take gambles on offense and when it is successful I don't get the feeling of "Yeah, that was sick and well executed. I deserve the following situation." but instead I go like "I only hit him because I took a (sometimes educated) guess and he was asleep at the wheel." which really doesn't feel that good to me and gives me less satisfaction when playing.

[@zatherog]

Ky gameplay be like

[@gtrgrgth]

Yeah you put my exact thoughts into words really well. I don't like this direction of fighting games at all :(

[@CaptainOfDoom]

Yeah, I see that, but for me that's actually an upside--because I get to the fun part (to me) of fighting games, which is conditioning opponents MUCH sooner. Educated guesses is what I'm here for, basically.

[@hctaz]

See and I agree for the same reason on defense. Since there’s not a lot you can do in Strive to force belligerent offense, I feel like I can just hold down back for the most part. It’s very boring. Versus when I’m fighting against Chipp or Leo in back turn I’m constantly thinking of the next move they’re probably going to do and what I might be able to do to escape this pressure sooner rather than later. Their offense forces you to do something on defense fast. You can’t just turtle, you NEED to get out of there. Also, because offense is riskier/nerfed, it also means defense had to be equally nerfed in order to maintain the balance. So not only do you have less options, SO DO I when I’m blocking. How is that any fun? It’d be like taking Pokémon and removing every type except water, grass, and fire. Like old GG games (using the Pokémon analogy) you’ve made me block something. I know your next options are normal, psychic, fire, dark, and ice. And my options are normal, bug, psychic, and steel. It creates an interesting series of thoughts where we both are deciding how risky we want to go. Do we go for the 10% chance of HUGE success with a 90% chance to get destroyed if we’re wrong? Do we go for something less risky but with less rewards? Do we go for the safe option of just doing the normal option with zero risk and nearly zero reward unless the guy is literally asleep? And there are varying degrees of how risky each option is. Strive is basically all fire, grass, water. Offense be like fire or grass and defense is water or block only. Super boring. Is he going to fire or grass my water option? Dunno. Might as well just keep blocking and do nothing cuz the risk is too high. :)

[@zatherog]

@@hctaz With Ky I literally do the same 2 blockstrings until they forget to block. I miss Ky pressure in Xrd.

[@neonknight5857]

From a Tekken perspective, I think minus is more fun than plus, assuming not everything is so minus to be unsafe. Pressure based on minus makes back and forths happen more often. Having no 2 connected choices be totally guaranteed puts a higher focus on adaptation, conditioning and reads. Minus pressure is cooler to me because the expression of getting outplayed is a lot more obvious. Ya just done got read and you gotta hold that.

[@Zimx02]

Yup, Tekken, Soul Calibur 2, most Melee characters (not the broken top tiers), SF4 Vega, Vampire Savior Jedah. Just the most fun games.

[@boredomkiller99]

Well you also have a lot more options defensively and offensively. Let's say you do a +1 or 2 jab and the opponents blocks. If you both press jab you win, but they can duck it and either punish you. However if you go for a mid they can beat it with a jab as it is still fast enough to make up the frame difference. This is before we get into back dashing, side stepping and crush move

[@doomtron4]

I think tekken has a deeper wheel of options than most games that makes it more interesting when you're slightly minus. You can side step/sidewalk, go for a high crush, do a powercrush, go for d+1, just jab again and see if they tried something slow, backdash on out of there and try to induce whiff. Theres still a lot going on. In most 2d games when you're minus its just the opponents turn to do pressure unless you want to do a random dp or the opponent is asleep. Its not really that fun.

[@sylascole5254]

@@doomtron4 This is an important point. I came from SSBM to NRS games to Tekken, and the biggest thing I noticed in Tekken by contrast is the flexibility to you have in creating mental frame advantage. Jab strings that are not hugely minus (-1 to-3ish) into sidestep is so strong at blowing up people that want to mash launchers or panic buttons in an effort to steal their turn back that you effectively could build your whole offense off of minus frames reliably, just because of how quickly player habits/expression comes in. NRS it was really, "Oh gee, this black adam trait canceled and is now +15 on block, better deal with the overhead/throw mixup again," or something very similar. No reason not to hold back and try to react to the throw.

[@neonknight5857]

@@sylascole5254 I've always got a feeling from NRS games they really have no idea how they want it to play. They just really wanna put cool shit on the screen. I feel like there's so much "fuck it" and "good enough" in their design.

[@nekoinalydian]

Very interesting topic :0. My main fighting game I play is Undernight and while everything is minus I still think the offense feels really powerful and free because of how reverse beat works as well how different specials and normals cancel between eachother. I could see why its so jarring for old guilty gear players to switch to strive based on that fundamental difference or especially the change to dragonball where the only thing that is plus (especially early on) is mostly assists.

[@quad1948]

2:39 LK forgetting hes talking about the game that has fucking baiken in it

[@kevinrivera9917]

Strive is the first FG I’ve taken seriously and I actually prefer the way it is compared to the older games as you describe it. Pressure feels like a balance of risk reward and if I defend well by understanding my opponents patterns, i get a turn to fight back by nature of them running out of options to pressure with or me reading a gap on something risky. Furthermore i think this makes the situation when your opponent uses RC to extend their turn really exciting because it subverts your expectations of when your turn is supposed to start. Idk, a lot of people have issues with strives pressure and defense but I personally find it really exhilarating. Great vid tho as always LK!

[@joeyjoestar472]

boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring

[@renann3]

My thoughts exactly

[@TheFortySeventhPlatoon4700]

Yeah fr I think defense is perfectly fine in this game, I mean yes if you don’t have a DP or fast button that really sucks but EVERYONE has some way to force their way out of pressure if you really can’t figure it out

[@StringKiller]

There was something about strive that, compared to Xrd and +R, it feels worse the better I get, like the game is less fun the better I get... Probably you are spot on, I noticed that no matter the character pick you actually don't feel very powerful, even when you get your win condition you feel like you have to gamble a lot, specially if you play low health characters like Millia, Ino, Chipp or Jacko. I don't know if Devs could do something about this at higher levels of play but definitively I don't think I'll last playing Strive as long as I lasted playing Xrd, let's see what melty blood brings to the table although the shield RPS is not looking very promising if you don't like gambly feelings.

[@gutsbadguy50]

I think this is why sol feels so fun to play. You have actual plus frames to work around, every move feels strong, and you have plenty of offensive options.

[@soramercury7074]

i really feel you. it just feels wrong, when you lose games because you guessed wrong in your own offense. or when you try to play neutral, but regardless of your movement no option you have, really seems to be the right choice. because you always have to fear, the other player is randomly mashing, but choosing the winning button. when i play millia against may, the entire matchup just feels like a single coinflip. waiting for may whiffing a button that is heavily minus, while dodging all of those nonsense, which seems to let her recover out of, faster than you out of anything. you move around for ages, until you feel like now she won't expect you to try to attack, or even come close. then you try something, but get hit by a random swing, lose 60% health, find yourself in the corner and one mixup away from death... somehow you survive, start moving again, bait out one attack, 6p on reaction get nothing big out of it but carefully apply pressure. of course she blocks every mix and mashed out of pressure. you are at 20 % heatlh, moving helplessly around again and the game says "DANGER". it annoys the shit out of you, you think fuck it, i did nothing wrong. then you try to use kapel the first time in this round, but she gorillaswings you out of it and the match is over. not saying buff or nerf anything, but sometimes it feels so incredibly random and awkward, that i really think the game itself, or some characters are just incomplete. i hope the october patch adds a few solid moves for neutral which are not like all or nothing, but reliable. also why don't moves just clash like in granblue or dbfz. kinda stupid to me that both characters take damage, or disjointed hitboxes always win. some characters just can not trade hits. high damage characters with big moves just get rewarded for swinging this way. big reward for brainless button presses and eventually punishment when whiffing, but in this game people do not even fear to whiff a freaking dp lol.

[@Dragonboy55564]

@@soramercury7074 Clashing exists, it's just rarer outside of mirror matches because there aren't as many disjoints in this game. Also, it sounds like that May player read you pretty hard, so you needed to be more unpredictable in your offense. In games where your pressure is mostly unsafe, you need to be good at conditioning your opponents to expect one thing while choosing to do another. And also be better at reading your opponent than in safe pressure games. Whiffed DPs should be an automatic punish because of the recovery frames. Even blocked DPs are. There aren't really safe DPs without Roman cancel.

[@DragynFyre12]

Yeah I feel this. As a Chipp player whose offense is largely based off the concept that "he could press another button after and frametrap you, but if you dont get out, it stays his turn" on my end, it feels like everything is a risk. And then you get characters like Nago who you have to respect because of how the blood meter makes him truly advantageous and it just feels like the risk reward is off.

[@soramercury7074]

@@Dragonboy55564 i know this. i agree with everything except the may player is reading me hard. in fact i see the same issues even at pro players matches, like lk gets gorillaswinged out of everything the same way. not AS often overall, but it just happens. not saying i'm a master of the game and all it's mechanics. also my knowledge about the framedata of every single character really is not enough to play the "real" matchups. i'm completely aware of that. the point just is, even if you are unpredictable, everything ist still a gamble. and to me, there are just too many situations, where too much options in neutral and offense are covered by one single move, which also leads into big rewards. and yeah... clashing is there.. in theory. not a big factor in this game tho.

[@KugutsuYushiro]

Probably why Nago is so fun and why he has the blood gauge. Fukyo makes so many things either plus or unpunishable, which is why it needs to be limited so hard. That's even excluding his ability to cancel specials to specials

[@Hawko1313]

wrapping my head around the Nago matchup is frustrating. hes great at taking away your turn, and you have to accept that it cost him blood guage to do, and if you can force him to spend it without reward it becomes one of your wincons. i like that extra layer to the game, but i havent played enough nago to understand how much each move builds guage.

[@johnhurley8918]

@@Hawko1313 Fukyo (telaport) doesn't build much, but all fo his other moves do. Doing more than four of them is just asking to go into blood rage. He has three ways to drop a lot of meter: Play slow and try to poke with a lot of regular sword strikes or do one of the two faster options, which are blood suck (command grab) or SSS. the last strike of SSS drains the most blood, but is punishable if blocked and since blood suck is a grab, he needs to be on your ass to successfully do it. If you can deny the grab after he uses a lot of blood moves, he's toast and will either have to fish for an SSS (which is risky) or will have to play for pokes and won't be able to use blood moves until they can shave off enough meter.

[@TheCommanderjoe]

@@johnhurley8918 dont forget super for lowering blood gauge!

[@johnhurley8918]

@@TheCommanderjoe that's true

[@choriflanero]

Cool take, didn't think about that. I play Zato and while all his shit is minus (except drill on oki), having a buddy who's got your back, turning your pressure safe or doing the riskier approaches kinda feels like a relief.

[@boredomkiller99]

Meanwhile in under night you have a character that is like - 16 on all his normals but has a rekka and super long delay windows and puts you into set play hell off every hit. Don't need plus frames to have oppressive offense

[@saltyluigi4011]

byakuya?

[@gassygorilla4767]

Which character is that?

[@choriflanero]

He didn't say you can't get oppressive offense in games based on minus frames though, I think the most important point is that it plays differently and it feels different, less powerful and more risky. Which you know, is true, you are playing a guessing game when using delayed rekkas as your pressure.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

He didn't say you need plus frames to have oppressive offense, and that wasn't the point of the video. It was comparing and contrasting plus frame based and minus frame based games and saying "In plus frame based games offense feels better because your opponent can't just mash out really easily, and in minus frame based games defense feels better because it's easier to mash out of stuff by default"

[@boredomkiller99]

@@NeoBoneGirl except that is such a shallow take. Go play a good Byukuya player in Undernight and mash on him and see where that gets you. It gets you into vortex hell is where it gets you. LK is legit just wrong this time. Some of most powerful feeling characters I have every played in a fighting game did not have us frame normals.

[@dylanh.3793]

I think the new approach to frame data is really simple and cool in fighting games. Characters can either end their block string with a slightly minus but safe ender to reset neutral or go for a slower/interruptible but plus button to take their turn back.

[@YoJimbo0321]

Ooh, I've been really curious about this topic since you brought it up in previous videos, so I'm glad to see it covered! You kind of bring this up when you mention the +7 situation @ 2:35, but one thing that is frustrating for me in GGST is having to be aware of situations where a move/sequence that is minus but normally not punishable suddenly becomes punishable in specific (and sometimes character-specific) situations. For example, ending Ky's block pressure with Dire Eclat is USUALLY safe because of the pushback, but if they get a good IB (or if you're playing against Ramlethal), suddenly what you thought was your standard block pressure ender no longer works. It turns into a situation where an ender that is normally quite strong (frame traps, leaves him at a good spacing, chips a bit, applies Shock State, etc.) feels kinda unreliable. Of course, you can mix up your options to make the Dire Eclat ender less predictable, but in that and similar scenarios, I find myself wishing that there was a more intuitive "safely end my turn" option that works universally no matter what, even if it were less strong or rewarding. I played Ky in Xrd as well, and, like you brought up, at a beginner level it was really intuitive knowing that ending your turn safely was very simple, and most of the risk instead came from going for pressure resets, which made sense. Obviously there will always be aspects of character matchup differences when it comes to building a gameplan with a character, but I feel that in games that are balanced around minus frames, you are forced to confront and work around those differences at a much lower level of your gameplan than in games built around plus frames.

[@MenaceLendil]

The entire point of IB is to be able to punish your opponent easier so that is an intended interaction i think.

[@YoJimbo0321]

@@MenaceLendil Sure, I get that, but in the video LK mentions how in Xrd that kind of thing was reserved for specific moves. It wasn't usually a worry you would have for your standard blockstrings and pressure enders.

[@Neogears1312]

Just a reminder that KOF gives you a plus frame jump in on literally everyone that on hit leads to an untechable knockdown.

[@Kizzie_Kay]

Great video!

[@lordknightfgc]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@cuecrunch]

definitely defined my problem with how strive feels, like after going for a franetrap, instead of being + or being able to reset pressure quickly compared to older fgs, i just felt like i had to take risks in pressure all the time and hope i dont get blown up. Its obviously also harder for the defender to deal with just because the situation is so strong, and getting out is just so much riskier, but you also actually feel rewarded for getting your pressure started compared to modern fgs. Great vid

[@Dasaltwarrior]

My biggest gripe with retrofitting the new style onto older games, is that it leads to lopsided play on all skill levels in many situations and or match ups. Like, these characters and their kits were designed with hyper aggressive play in mind, and you can FEEL that with Faust, Anji, and to a lesser extent I-no. But then there's Sol, Leo, and Chipp, who're still super aggressive for what the game wants to do half the time, and they wind up advantageous even in situations where they lose. To be clear, I understand why that's the case at the moment, Strive is essentially still in its beta test and Arcsys is expirementing. Still doesn't change the fact that the game feels half-baked when it comes to ... I guess balance? Iunno, it's still fun most of the time.

[@Dasaltwarrior]

@@SolidFake I-no still has trouble, but you can make her work way more than before. Speaking as a floor 10 I-no scrub

[@bryancorona25]

I knew something felt off, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. Great video LK!

[@qedsoku849]

In Soku (2009 FG) there are only a handful of plus melees, but a lot if the opponent guesses high or low wrong (unlike most fighting games, highs and lows don’t hit when blocked incorrectly, but instead reduce the opponent’s shield bar and give extra blockstun) also, every projectile (there are 2 projectile buttons, so they are like normals) is jump cancelable or airdash cancelable for plus frames, and some are plus with no cancel, and all of them reduce shield. Combined with the extremely lenient cancel system where normal melees can be canceled into projectiles it’s actually quite easy to get strings where there is never a gap in blockstun, but there is a defensive more mechanic where you can cancel blockstun with a projectile immune dash or jump, also dashes and highjumps are projectile immune frame 1, so it leads to projectile cancel into plus frames, but can be avoided on read/melee cancel that reduces options on block but catches escape attempts being the main mixup, in addition to not canceling and using the threat of cancels to make the opponent block. Huge oversimplification as I can’t fit everything that goes into pressure as a KZbin comment, but it is my favorite part of the game.

[@Commonsens8]

Great video LK. You definitely get it!

[@thescatmanr1802]

This is a super interesting point that I missed picking up strive for the first time. Only fighting game I player before strive was tekken, and hearing the description of older GG there is a key difference. Your mindgame in a plus frame game is "get plus frames, apply mixups" your mindgame in a minus game tends to be "do a string or gatling, and see where you can delay or just stop early to catch mashing and get a hit". It feels pretty rough because even though you're on offense (specifically block prssure), you're the one guessing what your opponent will do. The safe spaces have been flipped and blocking is far more comfortable

[@lcg1555]

Great video. Really interesting to consider the difference from a design perspective

[@Vanfernal]

I think the focus on online gaming also has something to do with it. A game being slower and more calculated probably helps the rollback be smoother.

[@DragynFyre12]

Nah, older games and games way more chaotic than strive have rollback. Strive isn't exactly "calculated" either when you have endless cancel windows and the blockstrings can all have gaps for frametraps if you want to add a bit of delay to your strings.

[@AsteriskBlue]

Great video! This is trend I noticed in fighting games as well. I hope to see more games in the future that DON'T go in this direction.

[@ERRandDEL]

Way back when SFV first dropped, I very much felt that way about the game (so much stuff feels minus, feels like I just throw a thing out, hope I'm right, and either they'll eat 50% or I will). In Strive I think the biggest thing was how there weren't as many jump cancels. Even though I main Sol and he got to stay in and be sticky, it wasn't for reasons that made me feel particularly powerful (ironically). The jump cancels were there, on good buttons too, but ending out at 5H range for instance and not being able to take a risky IAD to force my way back in just felt kinda bad to me among other things. I think Strive is a great game, I think plenty of people are rightfully having fun with it, but man even as an amateur +R Sol player it just feels better to take my turn and keep it instead of feeling like *every* interaction is a massive gamble for the round.

[@EliTheGleason]

I can't really agree with plus frames being new player friendly, extended block strings and pressure is what leads most people to feel like they cant do anything

[@s_factor_sam]

Exactly this. Though, many of the hardcore pre-invested either don't think of that or don't care.

[@jamesnordberg9323]

@@s_factor_sam GG is a cult, I swear. If you don’t know how to play, they tell you that you’re still new so your complaints don’t count. You get better and those complaints don’t go away. The player on offense still always is at an advantage, no matter if the defender is playing risky or conservative. The defender is actively punished by RISC and giving the opponent meter, or they get hit and take damage. Stages are small, corner carry is good, all “strong” defensive options are easily baited and punished. Strive puts a band-aid on this gaping wound, and also makes offense less interesting by doing so. It exposes that the very core design philosophy of GG is flawed “The defender isn’t allowed to have any fun, ever, and escaping offense is always going to be risky or expensive”.

[@naejimba]

Well it is possible to have plus frames without extended block strings and pressure... look at old school SF2 that had insane pushback haha. I wonder if you could build something off of that... at least it is VISUALLY easier to tell whether or not you can mash and has the upside of not really having to learn frame data.

[@Zetact_]

Honestly, anything that minimizes the need to read frame data is good in my eyes. I hate how just because it's available thanks to the internet that some devs feel like it's a good idea to unironically validate people who say they "can't get into fighting games because I don't want to have to study hundreds of moves." It feels good to learn a frame trap, sure, but it feels worse when you are completely helpless and then when you look up matchup data the reason you lost is because you NEED to know the frames. Also I have experiences of beating someone by just doing a frame trap and found it really unsatisfying since it just feels dirty to just have one knowledge check and suddenly you can easily win. I believe that's a legitimate issue that probably should be experimented with how to deal with in some way. Fighting games are already super big on rewarding offense. I think that making moves to get people to slow down their aggressive play and think more methodically about it since they are more likely to get shut down also has benefits worth considering. Really my stance would be that there's room for both types of balance but also that devs should always be thinking of ways to improve it.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

You need to learn frame data anyway. I don't get why so many people act like it's this gigantic hurdle when you just look at the startup and advantage on block, check if it's notable, then decide to remember or not. It's not like you don't need to know that Sol has a 3f 5K that extends fully on frame 4, making it an excellent mash and punish tool, in Strive. If you don't know that, you'll get "Knowledge checked" all day because you think your ender is safe vs it when it isn't.

[@HellecticMojo]

@@NeoBoneGirl all that verbiage said to say that it's a fast punish move. That's why people don't like frame data memorization because all it is just dilution of necessary knowledge. The need to actually check data is failure of conveyance from the game because it's not clear what needs to be done and looking up data or hitbox info is basically an admission of that.

[@MenaceLendil]

@@NeoBoneGirl You need to know less frame data though. It's viable in strive to jsut assume that after the opponent did a block string they're now minus and you can fight back. It's easier to know plus frames on like 1 or 2 moves per character. Knowing minus frames is less crucial since for a new player it's likely just gonna mean the opponent is just gonna block when do wrong punish rather than score a score hit.

[@midorixiv]

idk I feel like if people keep getting counterhit over and over at the same point without realising they should stop I don't think knowing the frame data will help

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@MenaceLendil And? Eventually you move past the new player phase and need to start learning actual punishes and shit. It may be easier when you’re in the “just mashing” phase, but people are still complaining about Strive defense, so it seems like all it did was make offense less fun, huh

[@oklimbo]

It's one of those things where - as a defender - if you're never at advantage, you never mash which transitively makes frame traps weaker. Obviously using "never" hyperbolically, but you get the idea.

[@tongpoo8985]

Good point.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Not really? Unless throw presence in the game is really really bad, throw is specifically designed to make you do “something” other than block, and frame traps are designed to catch whatever that “something” is. Trust me, frame traps are by no means weak in Xrd haha

[@hctaz]

See, I actually find it to be the opposite of this which is strange. I feel like you're actually given more incentive TO mash because you're disadvantaged if you keep blocking. Like against characters in Strive who don't have a way to keep their advantage, I just turtle up until I'm pushed out/they're minus enough to where I can just... leave. Leo is the counter example to this: I can't just block against Leo. He's got too many plus frames to abuse, and too many ways to open me up. I HAVE to take a risk and back dash his overhead, or mash when he tries to dash through me after a K, or jump out if I think he's going to command grab. I don't feel like I need to take those risks against other characters because they can't just keep abusing their plus frames to stay in my face. Like... another example is Sol F.s into F.s into F.s into F.s..... repeat forever; It forces you to DO SOMETHING or else you keep blocking forever. You have to spend meter using FD, or YRC, or mash. Mashing is meterless but you can get Frame Trapped if they go for Heavy Slash. But they start off by spamming F.s because it forces your hand. It makes you do something other than turtle.

[@shreybana4377]

Yo this was an amazing video. I definitely feel what you're saying & imo strong pressure and lower damage is just more fun. I enjoy executing comlex and strong pressure sequences and also doing the right at the right time against your opponent to get out of pressure or perhaps even get a good punish.

[@breaka666]

Personally I like risks and more interaction between players in all situations (even pressure) so my preferences are definitely more in line with Strive than Xrd (Xrd still top 5 games for me though). Totally see where he's comin from though, losing the satisfaction of "I did this correctly so this will work" must feel awful. Really well thought out video.

[@wr41thx29]

This was really helpful in more technically explaining something I felt intuitively, but could not properly express.

[@webbacon7106]

I felt this so hard going from strive to blazblue. I've been playing strive for a while, then me and some friends got blazblue and started playing. It felt fine between us, but each time I went into ranked, it felt so stupid having to wait so long to finally get my turn. Sure in strive it's annoying how safe mashing is, but in older games, you had to do research just to learn when it was your turn to play the game.

[@agni2051]

I hope over time they move just a little closer to the classic titles. Not too much, but the mindset this game puts you in is definitely different than other games. I have definitely become more aggressive of a player due to this game, and ironically I feel like it has actually elevated my play in older titles (more offence and bigger cojones I guess) but it does add to the scrambly feeling this game has at the upper-mid level.

[@yosha101]

Everything unsafe? Easy solution, just play Goldlewis! Jokes aside I do see where you're coming from but at the same time as an intermediate player across multiple Fighting games I don't notice a HUGE difference between these 2 types, so take that for what it's worth (which is very little).

[@naejimba]

I wonder what you think of the insane amount of pushback on block from versions of SF2. This was a way to allow people to be plus and feel safe on pressure, but 1) You could tell visually whether or not you should likely hit a button or not, making it easy for new players, and 2) you never really need to learn frame data EVER which can't be said of something like SFV. I understand they moved away from this model since every dev past that point was wanting combos that lasted longer, but in a lot of ways it did make the game more accessible to new players without any of the problems you mention (it was the strict input buffers that was a barrier to entry). Considering different mechanics like dashes, air blocking, etc. that we usually think of from anime fighters, I wonder if we could have a happy medium between that and traditional footsies and what it would feel like.

[@RainbowLizardOne]

There's always been characters who have generally minus frame data; Xrd had Dizzy and Raven, who are almost completely lacking in plus-frame normals. It's definitely odd that in Strive these are considered the norm, rather than the exception, though, to the point where Sol is considered exceptional for being +2 on his far slash. Basically everyone is a neutral-focused character now, and the definition of a "neutral win" has shrunk significantly. I don't mind playing as a character who lacks frame advantage (I've recently picked up +R and am enjoying Dizzy there), but I find it kind of sad that variety in playstyles between characters has dropped.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Characters who are generally minus (Like Dizzy, Zato, Venom) usually have ways to create plus frames outside of normals (Summons, Eddie, balls) in Xrd

[@boredomkiller99]

Thing to remember is that Xrd has 8 frame IB windows and reduced frame advantage. Most plus frames in Xrd are only +1 or 2 meaning often times you could escape pressure or even punish moves with it(via 0 frame throw) In strive plus frames are stronger because you can't reduce them but there are fewer of them.

[@RainbowLizardOne]

@@NeoBoneGirl This is true for Dizzy and Venom, but Xrd Raven doesn't have anything like that apart from his orb, which is hardly a neutral tool. And by the same token, you could argue the same thing for Strive Zato, Faust and Jack-O; these characters can generate frame advantage in other ways

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@RainbowLizardOne Yes, but those characters are far from the norm. Raven is pretty much the only character in Xrd like that, and makes up for it with his stellar neutral tools, especially in poking and approaching

[@rasengandx]

I couldn't find the words as to why strive feels off for me but this video perfectly describes how I feel. I also noticed a lot similarities between strive and sfv in that everything feel is minus

[@DreamerADV]

5:49 where did LK get 27 frames from for lust shaker? was that how fast it was before the buff to the attack's startup? also what does he mean by 9 frame gap? how is he calculating that?

[@lordknightfgc]

Yeah I talked about this on stream before the patch. Old Lust Shaker was 27f. The numbers about gaps come from understanding attack levels and a little math. All this info can be found on dustloop!

[@sparksdojo9091]

Something I was thinking about was do you think the smaller sprites of the old games change the dynamic of neutral compared to new games which have bigger models?

[@Miru-dono]

It's a pretty interesting topic. I played like 1300 hours of Mortal Kombat 11, then i bought GG Strive like a week ago and I'm already on floor 9 with Faust. Now needless to say that feels wrong, I mean of course I have experience in fighting games but they have an entirely different combo system without gatling and roman cancels and in strive I'm still just learning my matchups. In MK you have combo strings that can be cancelled into specials either for combo extending or to keep yourself safe, it is obvious when you lose your turn because the pacing of the fight makes it self-explanatory. In Strive however you have pretty similar frame advantages but due to the built-in system you do not necessarily need to stop advancing, it depends on your opponents knowledge of the game and/or if they are mashing. If you do something unsafe people can mash out of it for a huge reward, on the other hand if they do not know when to start outpokes you can just steal another turn. It kinda feels the gatling was invented to profit out of plus frames, it strait up just works better that way as advancing on your opponent isn't just easier overally but you have to do something really unsafe to get punished, while minus frames eventually lead to outpokes from actual mix-ups. With some characters in that case you really need to know what your opponent is going to do, it is a bit more read heavy, and keeping yourself safe also means sometimes you have to fall back into the neutral to set up your offense. How much this bothers you is up to you of course but it's certainly a standard in fighting games for the new titles to experiment with new mechanics and new ways to make players think differently and just be more careful. I hope I made sense here, as I said I'm playing only for a week, but i really enjoyed the vid!

[@Raxyz_0]

I _very_ much prefer the new direction, for me it just makes the match feel better, like everything is more intuitive. For me the feeling of conditioning your opponent and then banking on that successfully is great, that GOTCHA moment. That's probably why I liked SFV more than IV and Strive more than Xrd. That being said, I also hope it's not the only way fighting games are going to be balanced going forward. Kinda like competitive FPS have both the slower, more paced shooters and the chaotic arena ones. They require different skillsets and reward different playstyles, there's something for everyone and the entire scene thrives because of it. I hope Melty is more legacy in that regard, we need a hit with that balancing philosophy in mind.

[@tukoijarrett9155]

this is part of why melty blood blockstrings feel so great, you get both plus frames and huge cancel windows feels good to pick up, you can just find a character and hit buttons

[@happycamperds9917]

Don't let this distract you from the fact that Anji's 2H in +R is +6. Not to mention he has huge cancel windows.

[@mirror2922]

my first fighting game I invested in was tekken 7 like I learned the whole Korean back dashing and what not and sidestepping based on the 3d nature of it. Their is reallyno right or wrong way to think about it. I'm no game developer I just like nerding over my favorite fighting games like BlazBlue (now strive) and tekken 7. I guess I would say I started playing a game based on negative frames on how I consider tekken 7. The trick though with that game is that you have to play around a system entirely unique to 3d fighters which is sidestepping, which can make someone's plus frames a lot less scary if you know the direction to dodge, or option select a recurring flow chart. Some of the most common flow charts from tekken from what I remember of it at least considering strive grabbed my attention by the neck, is a character initiates a "Stance/Form from x string or x command neither knockdown or blocking scenario" Obviously said stances had certain traits such as only tracking to one side, or only affecting a certain portion of the body to leverage out all the other strengths or flaws of said character. I feel like (I might be entirely wrong) that the game becomes more about getting good footsies/call outs in a negative frame game. I guess if I were to take an example I'm familiar with right now is a millia rage running in for 2k 2d a when the opponent is starting to initiate or start offense. So the emphasis shifts from how good is my offense to "how much can I get away with at a reasonable opportunity cost to me?" if a millia in strive gets a situation that as you said the devs intended to be really hard to deal with example being H disk on knockdown for setplay the easiest way would be to whiff, out footsie, and maneuver in neutral. Idk just mainly speculative stuff just don't know the full extent/ implications that a trend like that has and how it most likely impacted my own growing period with the genre.

[@gigzyboi1631]

As a newer player, this change to offense make me really understand that getting hit is my fault. I played Xrd, and I always felt like i would have to learn all the frame data on every character or I would be stuck blocking the entire round and lose. I wasn't really able to understand the situations by playing, so I stopped playing. With strive and the change to minus frames I can straight up see that I got my button, but they were too far away and i got counterhit. I can tell that they have to stagger and take risks to stay in, and that i just have to find the right moment to act. I can learn by playing, rather than looking it up or labbing, so I play it more. I actually got to the point where I wanted to lab some things because I played it so much, but I never felt that it was required to escape the corner for once. (except when fighting chipp, but you get the idea) The downside is, now that I can escape pressure and get the change to run my own, I absolutely feel uncomfortable running offense myself. It's the give and take of a system like this. i have to read and learn offense now instead of defense. Edits: Grammar

[@Assassin21BEKA]

9:32 thanks to this video i understand it now. Thank you.

[@doomtron4]

The thing I hate the most about balancing everything around minus frames is that it feels like all I'm doing is learning fuckin frame data and when I can hit 2k for some shitty little combo. When everything is plus but has a lot of pushback you don't need to spend time on frame data outside of super specific scenarios since you already know you can't mash. Way easier to learn in my opinion. Also it would have been nice to elaborate more on the fact that in games where everything is plus there tends to be a lot of pushback. A lot of the comments seem to think that in these older style of games everyone is just doing blockstring infinites constantly, which just isn't the case.

[@MaadLuck]

fg devs "we cant make plus frames, its too hard for noobs who only play for 2 weeks, so lets jeopardize the entire game for noobs"

[@NeoBoneGirl]

I pretty much got the gist of what you meant when talking about this in other vids, but thanks for making a whole vid about it. This is the number 1 reason why I don’t play Strive, cuz it feels like my character cannot do shit on offense. It might be fine if it was another series, but as a sequel, playing any of the returning characters feels like I got my ass kneecapped cuz people were mad they got hit for mashing. I really hope plus frame based games make a comeback, because like you said, you just feel stronger. And isn’t that what like 90% of the Strive players talk about, that “buff, don’t nerf!” kinda stuff?

[@seokkyunhong8812]

People generally want faster startup on few moves when they want buffs. Very few moves are being advocated for plus frames, mostly from Anji players.

[@boredomkiller99]

I feel like you should of mentioned how Xrd and XX have much better defensive options to compensate for the high amounts of plus frames. IB is fairly easy to do and makes most plus frame moves minus or even punishable by a zero frame throw.

[@AdamSmasherReal]

some of fausts' moves in strive aren't even plus on hit. shit drives me mad.

[@Xeroxthebeautiful]

I come from Blazblue so most things being minus wasn't a huge shock for me but I also play Mai in CF and she has a lot of genuinely safe block strings thanks to some really solid plus moves and a command back jump but there're pretty low reward so I'm encouraged to mix it up a bit with less safe options.

[@CaptainYokkiller]

I have no idea what anyone is talking about lol. Strive is my first fighting game I'm just here because I like his videos.

[@Hawko1313]

Lk talking about + frames causing fucked up situations. Garuda loops makes me inclined to agree.

[@ThogrimGrudgebearer]

The problem with Garuda isn't the plus frames, it's the Guard Crush. Guard Crush is a cancer that shouldn't exist in its current iteration.

[@Hawko1313]

@@ThogrimGrudgebearer i understand that. i was just referencing the move because it was brought up in one of LK's previous videos.

[@ThogrimGrudgebearer]

@@Hawko1313 my bad then, I misunderstood the point of your post.

[@Jaynesslessly]

tfw you try to condition Sol or Leo to block your fake ass minus frame pressure and they just mash DP at every single opportunity and blow your shit up

[@happycamperds9917]

The issue I feel is that usually you can still stagger, even when moves aren't plus, but the changes to gatlings means that unless your Millia or Chipp that's not really an option.

[@christianlayne2824]

I agree with you. As a person who reads frame data everything looks unsafe/mashable and it just doesn't seem fun to be on the advantage side simply because, well their is no advantage your minus. I just hope they don't make every move minus make some of them at least +1 - +3. And make it so mashers don't mash all the time.

[@SlothWindGod]

I mean you're forgetting the amount of pushback things have on block. If someone's mashing on defense vs any one who staggers, counter hit confirms are a lot easier too because you know exactly what you were fishing for, rather than doing an autocombo that you muscle memoried in to deal with mashing. Idk as someone who's first fighting game (serious at least, I played xrd but god was I bad) is strive, I enjoy the fact that if I'm actually paying attention to the attacker, I can know when they're pressure ends and press rather than having to assume that you instead did a +5 Ender or some shit. Main reason why I hating Vs gio lmao

[@flavorgod]

This is my first big disagree eith lord knight. I think the new way has their advantage. Strive has more back and forth which what Daisuke wanted in the first place. I am a Dizzy player and her she only had one move that was + on block and that's c.S. Not everyone is created equal in Xrd.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Dizzy has summons for plus frames

[@lordknightfgc]

I'm not saying one thing is better than the other. They both have pros and cons.

[@luckyumbasa417]

Interesting difference in design. Would be curious to see a deep dive on it.

[@StubenhockerElite]

I usually Like to work out safe blockstrings, but you have a problem when all high level play looks the same.

[@megatenshi]

Another note on game feel that I've noticed: When you have a game that's designed generally around minus frames, having a character break the mold and be heavily plus tends to make them feel oppressive and braindead. On the other hand, in a game balanced around plus frames, characters can be created who on paper do not have good frame advantage, but utilize other tools to create pressure, and it feels more coherent overall. Blazblue is fairly in the middle as you said, but Taokaka having virtually 0 plus frames in her entire kit in CF is A-OK, and she still feels great because of all the ways she can open the opponent up. Delat cancels, her mobility, Overdrive, and RC all work together to make her feel great. TL;DR making fighting games is fuckin hard bro

[@MorphRed]

CF doesn't have many +frame on block moves, at least I think. Naoto, one of the most oppressive character in tha game has all of its moves -frames, although they are all within the -4 and -1 range

[@megatenshi]

@@MorphRed CF definitely leans more toward being balanced around minus frames than the rest of the series, but it's still pretty in between since it's so character dependent. While it has a fairly small number of plus on block moves on paper, a lot of the cast has access to their plus moves super easily through situations they actively want to create. Taokaka is explicitly balanced around always being minus unless you cancel your moves or space very specific options, while staying mobile and unpredictable enough to pressure the opponent anyway. It makes her low tier, but she can still play the game just fine and she's a lot of fun.

[@Ali-fs7ze]

Thanks for elaborating.

[@midorixiv]

I think this kinda puts into words one of the things I don't really like about strive, it feels like a lot of character blockstrings basically end with either doing a safe-ish special that ends your turn or going for a reactable move that can be punished if the opponent catches it and it feels pretty boring to do after a while

[@s_factor_sam]

That's good game design though. Having the safe moves be low reward and risky reachable moves be high reward is the primary way to balance a fighting game. You shouldn't be able to do an unreachable move that's safe on block and grants a combo or knockdown on hit. That's just objectively imbalanced. And locking it behind execution doesn't work because those with the most time, dedication, and/or ability will use it to their advantage. In anything PvP, all players involved should have agency for as much playtime as possible. If you want to be oppressive and powerful over your opponent, play a single-player action game, not an interactive competitive PvP game.

[@aganaom1712]

Doesn't reducing the cancel window also make stagger pressure less of an option since you can't delay the cancel as much? Also, in general, what threshold would you say that a move in strive, despite being minus, becomes functionally safe? You mentioned how a move that's -5 in this game can be basically safe despite being minus. Cuz knowing something like that can be a big deal for people who aren't comfortable with a specific move on a character or the character themselves

[@lordknightfgc]

Good question! You would think so, but again, things are just straight up plus so you could pull up. Of course characters in Strive have one or two things that give advantage, but for the most part (in Xrd for example), everyone's P and K were plus, and the strike/throw types had multiple normals that were either a good amount of advantage, or slight advantage still (like +2) but low total duration (making it difficult or "impossible" to react to). To compensate, IB changes frame data in the defenders favor and FD has more push back. Strive I would say straight up "safe" threshold would prob be -4 or -5. Not a lot of chars have 4F normals and you would have to IB for the most part to get the punish.

[@suburiboy]

Two words... Behemoth Typhoon.

[@Yeldibus]

To summarize: game design is evolving into a direction that lets players play the "mind games" part of fighting games sooner. Old fighting games tended to reward frame-perfect execution first and foremost. You drop a combo? You get blown up. You play against someone more experienced? You don't really "get to play" much - it's more about getting humbled and going back to reading up on numbers and figuring things out in training mode. Of course this process can be fun, but it requires a ton of commitment and tolerance for frustration. I much prefer to have a FGC community where everyone can improve and have fun playing against friends, intuitively figuring things out and getting better. The old design philosophy will always create a more niche type of game that most people will abandon quickly or never even give it a shot. Strive makes it really obvious and intuitive when it is your turn and what you can get away with. It feels much more dynamic in that you are constantly thinking about what the other player is doing and how you can counter their current plans.

[@s_factor_sam]

Right on the money. But the majority of the FGC hardcore show, time and again, that they'd prefer the gameplay design methods remain what made the genre so niche and unappealing to the vast majority of human learning styles and personality types. Change bad.

[@KonoDmaxda]

See I dont have this, 9:48, problem, yet, as my past main isnt in Strive so I already am playing a different character

[@n00bleaker19]

+ Frames seems to be more of a "Knowledge Check" vs - Frames being more of a Conditioning thing

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Not really. You still have to condition your opponent not to mash before going for throws, and condition them to mash if you're going for a frame trap. Being plus isn't inherently winning a situation, you still need to open an opponent up

[@zero123alpha6]

Minus frames are still knowledge checks, epecially with rebeats

[@n00bleaker19]

@@NeoBoneGirl Of course, what I meant was mostly a perception thing. My wording was a bit too vague.

[@n00bleaker19]

@@zero123alpha6 You are right I was mostly only thinking of personal experiences and haven't really played games with rebeats. Again I may have been too vague.

[@gamelord12]

I'm glad you finally articulated what you meant by "balanced around minus frames", because now that I know your definition, I can say that I absolutely prefer it that way, haha. I don't know if it's a trend among "newer fighting games" per se, but the less I have to think about frame data, the better. As you pointed out, it just introduces a bunch of knowledge checks when there are a ton of random moves that are plus, and I can't really think of a game that conveys that to people mid-match other than Fantasy Strike. When you've got a bunch of knowledge checks like that, you introduce a lot of unintuitive homework really early on in the process, and that's the exact reason I bounced off of Street Fighter V. Meanwhile, I've put like 700 hours into Skullgirls, and I rarely think about frame data. Knowing frame data will always give you an advantage, but by making it matter so much less than other aspects of the game, it makes it easier to learn and more fun to learn.

[@tongpoo8985]

Yea the new way is better imo

[@footrest3854]

Doesn't SG have a ton of plus light normals? (also the minus moves can all be made safe with lockdown assists)?

[@gamelord12]

@@footrest3854 Pushblock and PBGC prevent those things from feeling oppressive.

[@footrest3854]

@@gamelord12 Maybe I'm just a scrub but pushblock isn't that effective against assists since even if you push the point character the assist still locks you down (vice versa if you push the assist). The only thing you have is PBGC which has a tight timing that varies depending on hitstop. Assists like cerecopter and butcher's blade do feel oppressive IMO, tho it's not really a knowledge check.

[@gamelord12]

@@footrest3854 Butcher's Blade you just have to respect because of the armor, but all that means is that you just have to pushblock whatever comes after. Otherwise, PBGC will bail you out of just about any lockdown if you've got a reversal handy. Go into training mode against copter assist, and I think you'll find the PBGC window is easier to time than you think. Just input your reversal to come out roughly when the pushblock animation ends. The plus frames on light attacks just aren't oppressive in SG because pushblock pushes the enemy back so far, and if you're patient enough to just block after the light attack, the opponent doesn't get to steal an entire additional turn.

[@zman8471]

Make everything a bit plus but make the push block OD as hell. That'll balance it out

[@CrispyGFX]

"In games with minus frames you feel like more things are inherently unsafe and there's more risk versus reward" I totally get why you and other people wouldn't like that feeling, but I actually like it a lot from a gameplay concept. There's more of a focus on poking in neutral, spacing, whiff punishing, etc., rather than pigeonholeing yourself into using certain moves or certain openers that you know are plus or safe which might stifle more creative/situational approaches or options. If it was always the safest and most rewarding option to run up and do crouching jab, everyone would always just run up and do crouching jab.

[@emersonpage5384]

grounded neutral footsies? say it aint so!

[@mikethegreat4296]

They have these super wide cancel windows, then 2f window to IB :^)

[@AstralTaurus]

>(in dbfz) "they get full combos for mashing...they take 50% of your health and knock you down" yeah see that's my issue with dbfz as a whole lol. people will mash out of every situation every time because if they're right even once they potentially are KO'ing a character. and people will just randomly mash in situations that make no sense (like on wake up, from midscreen, etc.) because the reward for mashing is just too high in that game. The "everything being minus" certainly doesn't help but eh that's just DBFZ on the whole

[@lordknightfgc]

Yeah you just learn to accept it over time and play around it. Plus, you could do it to them too lol.

[@thegoose8663]

Strive is perfect for a guy like me.

[@Ragingspoon]

For me the biggest difference is how they release games and market them now compared to 10+ years ago. As for balancing around plus or negative frames I am not to fussed either way but what I personally like is a good balancing of risk and reward. Ideally there should be no braindead go to moves but that is going to be extremely hard to do in any fighter that has more than a few moves i.e most of them but its what I feel they should go for in balancing. For content I feel they should load it up as much as possible on release so that all types of players of all types of skill levels feel they have something to do and then work on the next game so we can get a fresh experience every few years but this is not the easiest way to make money off an established game especially if its very successful so it wont happen until they have milked that one into the ground 1st. Now its release with the minimum and then slowly turn it into a full experience over a few years and charge along the way for it.

[@gabrielveiga305]

Is that 3 Houses music in the background

[@gigawhopper]

He just said: "Conditioning with bad frame data" In the best way possible.

[@BlueDragon7100]

Yo LK, just wondering, could you do an in-depth guide on Millia's H-disk set-ups? I know you don't USUALLY do Millia specific videos, but for us LK wannabes, just wondering.

[@sighyawn6378]

i have been asking myself why the strive frame data is the way it is since launch.

[@unsolol]

sounds like the offens person can toy more with the opponent in older games, sounds fun

[@boredomkiller99]

You also had far better defensive options to balance it out. IB and FD were strong.

[@Szarps]

yo i havent really dug to much into frame data in terms of strive (or xrd for that matter, more of a BB player myself) but on DBFZ i found many shit that is neutral on block or just totally safe, on strive i only check nago and fucker has pretty much everything safe, like "dude... the minus frames in another set of pants didnt you?" and a command grab on top for good meassure, so he can spam all that safe shit without the downside. Anyway back on point, i thought most fighting games were like in BB, the harder the punch the more minus it becomes, and only specific shit is plus and usually is because some reason that you can theory around. On strive i dont feel like there is much minus frames either way, sure they are there, but at least your normals are usually just minus but safe (as far as my experience led me)

[@loneylowf8876]

if strive had as many plus frames as xrd the people complaining about the lack of options on defense would go wild

[@ThogrimGrudgebearer]

That's because the defensive options in the old games were a lot better. Strive is just a failure all around. Offense is more of a gamble than a strategy, defense is underwhelming. I hope it bombs hard.

[@calebmarshall5739]

@@ThogrimGrudgebearer imagine being so butthurt that something that other people like exist that you have to cry about it on the internet and go to sleep in tears because it's successful

[@dragoslove]

The biggest trigger for me by far is stuff being minus or zero on hit. I should not be at disadvantage for landing an attack. Ex. Axl 6H in GGST has no combo options without RC and is 0 on hit. Axl's fastest normal is 6f meaning that against most characters he gives up his turn with the move.

[@garethcf1016]

I played a few other games gbfv, uniclr, bbtag, xrd, and yes, millia being unsafe on everything especially when she first came out was very irritating

[@VolatileExceedra]

Confused Giovanna noises.

[@MaulusRS]

I think the way offense and defense is fundamentally structured is just less interesting to me than xrd. I really miss just how elegantly IB and FD worked with the smaller cancel windows to create more active, thoughtful offense and defense. Definitely the main reason I cant get down with strive as much

[@G0dbeast]

I'm not hating on Strive, but I hate how people act like the old GGs didn't have hella neutral tons of back and forth interactions. Since there are generally more + frames the game is also more balanced around being able to fight against them. The games are just different.

[@lordknightfgc]

This is true. Sort of happens on both sides too - both games have tons of neutral interactions, both games have strong offensive situations, they just go about it a different way + character power is lower in Strive.

[@eighthgate842]

I’ve worried about this myself for a good while as well. DBFZ didn’t seem like too big of a deal to me considering the role that good synergy/high block stun assists play, but I really started thinking about it when Granblue came out. The game was so beautiful, but felt so offensively limited (depending on who you play I guess). I was really big into Under Night and early NRS games for a long time, but I’ve played a healthy handful of just about every fighting game for a while now. This new-age approach to offense is the single thing that worries me most

[@creativedegree]

Why are those chairs spinning in the stage 🤣

[@Living_Target]

As a Gio player... Minus frames exist in this game?

[@CrowFGC]

Why did you just… not talk about the safe and frame trap options in Strive that both new and veteran players will do? You can mix between spaced Disc and Shaker/Mirage

[@peacemakerpewpew]

I assume that's why gatlings work like they do in Strive. If mashing out jab is easier they needed to change it to avoid mash-fest. At least that's how I understand it.

[@unluckylux7781]

I’m not sure how much this is worth, but as a relatively new player, I much rather have more interactable defense than really good pressure. It makes a match feel more swingy and exciting.

[@vigorouslethargy]

I've been playing GG since X, never competitively just for fun, and I agree with you. In older games if your opponent got a counter hit and happened to have memorized their 37 hit combo they could do you just had to sit there and wait it out until they were done. I like the shorter gatlings and the greater back-and-forth in Strive.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

The thing is is that defense has far less interaction in Strive than it does in Xrd or XX now haha. Minus frames don't make defense "deeper", they just make it easier to challenge. If you think every character in Xrd had like launch day DBFZ 30 second blockstrings that you had to sit there and just take, you simply just haven't seen the game

[@dante9284]

The thumbnail is making me miss Millia's old design a lot.

[@DevilJin01]

Funny enough 3rd Strike was a lot like this and I think it's part of why a lot of older players were turned off by it. Characters like Elena have almost 0 plus frames on block. 3d fighters do this as well and a lot of turn taking revolves around movement or mashing out a evasive or crush move after. In Tekken if you play Kazumi you have like only 1 plus ob move and have to rely on clean hits for plus frames otherwise. Usually plus ob moves tend to be whiff punishable by ducking or stepping also.

[@cytosine6870]

I'll be honest I never noticed this feeling. But I've pretty much only played Potemkin in AC+R, Xrd, and Strive. Maybe it doesn't apply to him as much?

[@boredomkiller99]

Probably because Pot actually has more plus frame moves in Strive not less. I think in general saying Strive is less based on plus frame then Xrd doesn't hold up well in many cases.