Plus Frame Mids Were the Least of Your Problems in the Old Games

[@Simon_E32]

"I'm not even gonna ban you, you can come back if you want. Just hold my nuts." LK is the goat man lmfaooo

[@zepolcin2412]

Lk for the people

[@superbaralai]

I only started watching bits of him recently. From what i've seen, he seems super reasonable.

[@SalamanderLights]

LK is pretty consistent. He always maintained that Sol was clearly very good, but f.S pressure wasn't as bad as most said.

[@evilblksamura1]

Consistently second

[@DXYS95]

LK also defended UI Goku when everyone and their mother was playing the character and it won every single tournament. I can see where he's coming from, since his mindset is "if there's counterplay, it's fine", but some of these characters are really toxic to play against, given how easy it is to pilot them

[@servebotfrank4082]

@@DXYS95 LK is one of those players who draws a clear line between "This shit is busted and ruins the game" and "This shit is strong but it doesn't ruin the game". The bright side is that if LK ever complains about something, you know it's probably insane.

[@NeoBoneGirl]

@@DXYS95 He was saying UI was strong, he just wasn’t saying that UI breaks the game, because he didn’t. LK is always keepin it real in the age where characters are either broken or F tier to the modern public

[@ackmedzambosama5327]

Lk also a clown

[@caelan5301]

"this game is just fishing for a knockdown and running your shit" is a description of literally every fighting game

[@RagnellAvalon]

knockdown or launch, one of those two

[@Furionic696]

There are plenty of games in which hitting a knockdown or launching ia secondary to picking your opponents healthbar apart with smart gameplay SamSho is an example of that, minimal combos and knd oki situations nore focus on footsies and approach game

[@MUGENanaya]

@@Furionic696 thing is - and dont get my wrong i LOVE SamSho as a series from old to new - Samurai Shodown is the exception that proves the rule 9 times outta 10

[@webbowser8834]

It really is. Heck, even in something like Fantasy Strike, knockdowns are one of the primary ways to get pressure for the majority of the cast. It's pretty much Rook's entire gameplan.

[@James-pb8xu]

@Katze, Keith @Furionic696 this is also patently false AF too. Which smasho game are y'all talking about LMAOOOO? 2? Get mixed on wakeup by Ukyo 50/50 strike/throw, dumb safe, dang near HnK Toki teleporting. 3? LOL say hello to getting grab DURING block stun, plenty of unblockables, infinites, and setups. 4? Nako, Genjuro, Hoahmaru, Hanzo, and more have conversions that at least deal 70%, strong 50/50s in neutral, and generally makes your character explode with the combos. Hanzo rules neutral with his projectile, especially in rage, Hoahmaru will two-touch you if need be, Nako infinites anything that moves, and Genjuro just sucks to fight against. Beyond that, you can make a case, but Samsho, like SF, has the false reputation of having little combos and mostly honest gameplay when it's full of degeneracy and disgusting options.

[@Sorrelhas]

I agree with Obama when he says that everyone should learn an old fighting game I think it just changes how you look at balancing and matchups

[@noah__jd4883]

Was right about to say the same.

[@Sorrelhas]

@@SolidFake That too Getting in touch with history brings many advantages We learn what we lost, but we also learn what we won

[@Jaynesslessly]

thats funny as fuck you say that because hes infamously the man that got fS to death in the corner by deb and then proceed to talk shit about how unviable axl is(jp evo winner btw) and even to this day is one of the biggest anti strive guys in the scene despite playing the most boomer games to give him perspective

[@kaleidoslug7777]

The first fighting game I seriously played and got determined to learn is +R, and it has some fucked up nonsense (Fucking Zappa I swear to god). Every game does

[@Sorrelhas]

@@Jaynesslessly Just because he sometimes is a hypocrite that loves to talk the good shit until he's called out doesn't mean he isn't right in this aspect

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

*"Man, this game is just clicking heads and getting good angles"* - a new competitive FPS player

[@SyRose901]

​​@@ckorp666Warfork gets a few good lobbies in the EU, and it's a ton of fun, but yeah, the arena shooters are mostly super dead. Forget clicking heads, fucking outrun enemy rockets to clip them with the classic Quake weaponry.

[@adambaryliuk3393]

@@ckorp666Titanfall 2 still has active servers.

[@Zedzilliot]

​@@adambaryliuk3393 probably the best fps game ever made, highly recommend. I like the gameplay of apex but I have deep hatred of it for what it stole from us.

[@adambaryliuk3393]

@@Zedzilliot Oh believe me, I know. I’ve been clocking serious hours for years.

[@protonjones54]

Lol

[@FGCErrorRick]

Saw that last Johnny clip and almost spit up my fucking sandwich like it was about to replenish Johnny's coins.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Underestimated comment

[@kholdkhaos64ray11]

I still wish when Johnny lvl 3 Mist Finer wall stuck you, you just T-posed

[@internetmovieguy]

Plus frame mids. I sleep. Full screen high low: I complain. 10 frame plus mid that aggressively moves towards me: I cry.

[@alexthezephyr]

My favourite video of AvoidingThePuddle is Aris talking about Genei Jin and Third Strike. Then there's a Dudley Vs Yun match and someone asks who is he rooting for: "They're both bitches" [...] "And Dudley is no David either, everyone is a Goliath in this game". I love that Kusoge so much

[@hongodongo9053]

I play third strike dudley and its really like this, people who only know newer fighers dont realize that 3s is yun, chun, ken and 5 fighters that absolutely shit all over the rest of the roster. Dudley is an absolute scumbag in that game, ex machinegunblow is an automatic corner carry and once youre there its constant reversal safe 50/50s into super on wakeup. Fast as shit overhead, huge damage, if you block its constant frame advantage and tic pressure.

[@MugenHeadNinja]

3rd Strike is not Kusoge, this terms way too overused.

[@Altares_V]

@@MugenHeadNinja 3S is largely, by today's standards, is Kusoge by the past standards with the amount of shovelwear fighters coming out back then it wasn't. Still wasn't that popular in its wake either.

[@rob0duck430]

​@@MugenHeadNinjaYou've clearly never been unblockabled to death, somehow dashed through Chun Li's 5HP as Remy, accidentally killed Makoto with a neutral throw as Ken, or played against a competent Yun player. 3S is a broken game.

[@zaedis5629]

I've never seen that Johnny I-no clip before that's hilarious

[@Arlo5.13]

LK rants are legendary lmao

[@ividboy7616]

This is why it's good to play some older fighting games, it gives you perspective

[@Suetakefan]

i will never forgive zato players for their past crimes

[@ssjAnnaPaquin]

Zato players literally cannot be trusted when it comes to game balance

[@malacara1335]

The fact that you call him Zato and not Eddie tells me everything I need to know.

[@Suetakefan]

@@malacara1335 That i learned about who zato was before he died and had his body taken over by Eddie??? Please do elaborate

[@Sakaki98]

This is why I respect MAHVEL fans. They’re just as big a proponent of player expression as anyone else, but they fully acknowledge and embrace all the shitty balance that comes with that instead of going all revisionist and pretending that their favorite games are perfect.

[@RagnellAvalon]

You know very different mahvel fans than I do

[@Bilndmann]

The mahvel games are good because they’re ass

[@felixc.4294]

I honestly love the high character power of +R, the wild shit in that game is so fun

[@jpVari]

people have never said 'once you knock the opponent down it doesn't matter who they are" about mortal kombat 11. the opposite complaint existed on defense for that game, which got me confused because it was my first game and then I expanded out to the fgc and was like, ah I know what would make these people happy. (it did not make these people happy)

[@Osiris2994]

Sajam EVO Speedwagon explaining the Johnny DHC glitch is funny to me

[@Living_Target]

LK the people's champ. Can't believe you did sq like that again though lol

[@RedMegaXIII]

Why does Johnny have the wall splat combos from Strive?

[@NemSumeragi]

Ladies and gentlemen, wallsplat is not a GGST original mechanic. The evidence is right there.

[@setxjrichie9745]

Watching Kid Viper play literally anything is so insane. He and a jp player named Kaqn inspired me to get good at Blazblie starting at the release of Calamity Trigger

[@IronyNinja]

Hey nice, I was also inspired by Kaqn's Ragna back in CT. It was my first fighting game :)

[@setxjrichie9745]

@@IronyNinja saaaaame. I truly thought I was gonna be a Ragna main watching him lmao but somehow I ended up on Nu/Lambda. Never once complained about those picks though 💅

[@IronyNinja]

@@setxjrichie9745 I found Lambda very fun to play and fight against. Even though Nu/Lambda are 'S' tiers most matchups in Blazblue were really fun, if a little unbalanced. Fuck CT Rachel though.

[@setxjrichie9745]

@@IronyNinja CT Nu was my jaaaaaaaam! Lambda never made it passed mid tier but I genuinely think she was the most fun character across all games cause she could half zone / half rushdown. She didn't excel at anything in particular but her kit was just soooo rad

[@krbay1019]

People will always hate mid-dispensers more because it feels like it takes your ability to play. Even with the crazy offense that Melty has, the most hated character was Honest Mids Michael.

[@TheSingularity3]

I play Melty so I can do wacky air neutral not get hit by a bunch of lightning and die lmao

[@mylesdavis135]

Honest Mids Michael was a class all on his own who was busted because he was playing a projectile zoning game leagues above any other character's calibre in a game with mostly rushdown characters, not just being overtuned on chip damage, with an oversized heat activation and a dp, as if the character shouldn't have been weak on defense. I think your point's a good one with a bad example. New players think you should be able to win a punching contest with the gorilla king and haven't yet learnt the value of fighting from positions where their character is strong.

[@Frostedd_]

you mean honest mids +27 michael with an air unblockable fullscreen proyectile? yes, he was busted lol

[@jy61]

People hate C-Roa, but that's also because despite being a "mid" dispenser he has some of the best ways to break cross up protection in the game. Additionally, his pressure does absurd chip damage, so even if you block you'll lose a ton of health. All this on top of the fact his neutral with orbs up is basically impassable for every character in the game and he has strong reversal options like heat activation and a meterless DP. Every top tier in melty runs mix on you. The rest just generally have better high/low mix than C-Roa. "Honest Mids Michael" is only a meme for a reason, it's not honest and he can still mix you with some of the stronger cross-ups in the game, or just slowly kill you with the chip from his +27 mids.

[@ultimatebada55]

"Honest Mids Micheal" is the funniest thing I've heard in a while. I am using this phrase from now on.

[@MrCowman57]

Rev 1 Johnny was glitched to in the beginning to I think.

[@mallow2902]

You've got it pretty good when all you have to complain about is a little frame advantage.

[@ASmashingGentleman2]

is it bad i still want S tier lowain just to see the type of chaos that would ensue

[@evendrag6302]

That mistfiner broke the Xrd wall... damn, ya hate to see it

[@duggyfresh8899]

Well japanese players don't PUBLICLY complain as much according to jiyuna. The way he showed it there a bit more private about it i guess. Obviously not always just in comparison, but i dont know i dont live there or speak japanese.

[@2Eliishere]

Maybe professional Japanese players, but man go to an arcade in Japan and woof, you'll hear some real scary salt. See a drunk business man beat the shit out of a 3rd strike machine while screaming

[@janematthews9087]

Oh you weren't around when Kazunoko was still playing in God's Garden? There was a webm of him thrashing an xrd cabinet so hard, he got physically thrown out. Dunno if he ever paid for the damages but I know he was banned for, like, a month or something. And of course the legendary Bonchan Beatdowns. Man lost mad weight from the stress. Daigo can be a sadistic mofo, apparently.

[@duggyfresh8899]

@@janematthews9087 nah i know that, but jiyuna meant more on social media like i said this isnt me saying this just from what i understand According to someone that lives in japan and speaks at least a little plus thats not really the same as critiquing.

[@ponchoman6277]

Calling fighting games cooking simulators has aged like fine wine

[@SomniaCE]

People only parrot the "It's ok because it's hard" statement cause they heard some FGC boomers who hate new games say that while they performed infinites and instant-stun combos. People absolutely refuse to look at the risk vs reward at play. What happens if an MvC or Fist of the North Star infinite gets dropped? 9 times out of 10 the only thing that happens is the person returns to neutral or gets another mix-up opportunity. Same goes for Zato in +R. If that oki gets blocked the opponent still has to guess for game like 2-3 more times and then the opponent can actually do something. That is the definition of not making it ok. If it was an insanely hard setup or infinite and the risk was that dropping it meant wasting a ton of resources or getting punished then it might be ok. But the risk reward just isn't fucking there

[@absoul112]

The FGC never changes.

[@kasai9560]

Sol being a mid spammer and people getting really mad over it is why I really want HOS in strive Fuck it, bring in testament and zappa too. Let people know true pain

[@aidanpupilis2979]

HOS would be tight, that character deserves a spot in strive as honestly he kinda is a strive character in accr already all they have to do is take away his Gatling

[@jeremiahmatos3763]

XX series Test is the only time I had fun playing a trap character and I know I'm never going to get that feeling in another game. Is this how Gargos mains feel?

[@arcfieri5965]

@Leith Aziz PAGY honestly the trees weren't even the most annoying part, at least imo. The nets and exe.beast were way better at controlling space and just being overall obnoxious to deal with.

[@Azmodeus87]

As a casual who just had a rough day, i say: Bring back XX Justice, Kliff, Zappa, full powered Megalomania, Testament, Bridget should of been back last generation & OG Mission mode. LET CHAOS REIGN AND THE SALT FLOW!!

[@aidanpupilis2979]

@@Azmodeus87 I hate Bridget and kliff,they should have never been made, characters with that good of buttons don’t need those tools (lest there is a punishment for spamming them like nago). I think the rest are annoying, but cool at the very least

[@tukoijarrett9155]

lmao in melty just always assume shit is plus like i play f-roa I just get to hit buttons on block and be plus my lows? plus overheads? maybe not plus but probably safe

[@h4zrd-rs252]

I still get flashbacks of Cyrax from mk9. that was some real crazy shit

[@sugararmor8]

Where is that Ogawa Eddie clip from

[@fgcbird]

Meanwhile in skullgirls “here is a low throw standing over head instant overhead character”

[@KiskeFriedChicken]

Back here to celebrate the return of our Perfect Degeneracy

[@imp086]

Tell me Johnny doesn't have mad Poochie energy.

[@SaiKisaragi]

KZbin recommended me this after John boy came out. Thanks for the reminder.

[@basicweeb4272]

5:52 69 on the clock it was the will of the gods

[@stonebbq5474]

LOL THAT JOHNNY SHIT IS ABSURD

[@AdjutantAntithesis]

Why do fighting game streamers put their mics up against their sticks

[@bobrianfo104]

they don't, most sticks' buttons are just loud af

[@LinNick]

Sticks just loud af

[@noah__jd4883]

They dont, they just hit the sticks and buttons so loud it sounds like it lol. I know a few streamers actually do have “stick asmr” secondary mics though, its actually sounds pretty pleasant when they have clean inputs

[@SalamanderLights]

I personally installed a silent lever and button mutes. Best money I've ever spent.

[@AgentBacalhau]

Hey let people get mad at mids, it's funny to have people mald at my 6H and ex puffball in +R

[@Nether2342]

Can’t you backdash the johny unblockable with correct timing? I know for a fact backdashing works on the elphelt unblockable.

[@ssjAnnaPaquin]

He usually does a true blockstring into mistfiner so no. The way arcsys said to deal with it in mission mode was "try to make your dead angle clash with mistfiner" lmaook

[@TheJbrown60]

​@@ssjAnnaPaquin thats toxic

[@anotherinternetperson8495]

Do you know any resources for me to learn to play stick? I dont even think I hold it properly and dont know any players with hand cam

[@matrix3509]

I've always heard the best way to hold the stick to avoid hand strain is to hold it like you'd hold a wine glass: with the stem inbetween your first and middle finger with your thumb resting on top, or inbetween your middle and ring finger. That has always worked for me. This is for ball type levers. For bat type levers, its different. Whatever you do don't actually rest your hands and wrists on the stick. Doing that will very quickly lead to painful strain. I used to let the bottom of my right palm and wrist rest on the stick when hitting buttons, and after a few hours, it made my wrist hurt like a mfer.

[@slyrytang]

honestly, i found that stick takes much longer to learn and use consistently. For the most part its probably only still used as left over from arcades only using them. It took me a few weeks to just do quartercircles consistently on stick, and a day on keyboard and i'd assume not much longer on pad. tldr consider other controllers if you dont want to spend a lot of time getting used to stick

[@Karaage_]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4mzYZ6Zbrilr5o ignore "Ultra Street Fighter 4" it applies to using stick in general and once you've found your grip its just getting comfortable.

[@ghostrobofan1]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5qTgoCjjtOUga8 ^Good relevant video tutorial^

[@Jaynesslessly]

its more intuitive to do piano like sequences on stick though, having 4 fingers to hit buttons rapidly is way better than thumb and shoulder buttons. which is why people praise hitbox because it combines easy motions and fast and precise buttons

[@agaed7676]

i love johnny and elphelt and because they are fucked up i just love myself some fucked up characters i dont care if you do it to me cuz i know someone did it to you and that makes me laugh and forget any anger i might have

[@imdabous1970]

Damn, who would have thought I could get mad at games I don't understand.

[@FGCbaronkorvo]

Dang only 57 views when I got here? Man he's early

[@Amutsal]

I don't understand the mindset in that tweet. That's what fighting games are. If I don't get to run some kind of messed up 4 way mixup that loops into itself why even play. I can't imagine anything more boring than an "honest" game where you can literally only land a hit if your opponent screws up and gives it to you. "reads" lmao give me grime all day compared to that trash.

[@AaronRotenberg]

I find SFV Ryu vs. Ryu incredibly fun to watch and play. But I'm also playing I-No in Strive lately. Just two different flavors of fighting game.

[@Vsolid]

This. I love mashing my 1f startup 22C reversal that is plus enough on block to make coffee, wins every trade, and starts combos.

[@tbc1880]

Well add a guard bar and chip and it becomes less of a guess and more of a when. You have to push sometime or you lose. So you don't need 4 way mixes... But I like to have a situation where my foe has to guess. That's all. The more they are aware the more fun I have because I feel the I outsmarted them rather than they just never saw the set up.

[@punishedbrak4255]

People who want "honest" fighting games don't actually want to play fighting games. There's nothing fun about every character having every normal do the exact same thing with the exact same range at the exact same speed. That's just MK1.

[@biggestbungus1295]

@@punishedbrak4255 you mean Footsies

[@sladevalen]

I think one of the reasons people get so mad about the mids from sol and not as mad at the crap from the other games is the difference in power level. Like yes, zato could do that crazy instakill set up, but he was in the same game as monsters like Zappa, testament, and Faust who all were crazy strong. In strive the power level is so much lower so seeing sol get to do what he does (in my opinion it's the damage that's the most frustrating part of it) and noone else is on the same level really aggravates people.

[@scarletnoct5807]

Coming from the future, this is funny as shit

[@Youbuu2]

Damn he's right.

[@covetouscat9597]

Xrd is some shit and I love it

[@Zetact_]

What's DHC glitch? It means you can do a combo into another combo with a super but that combo is not landing any combo but when he knockdown it's still a combo, you understand? But seriously, it's a matter of perspective. Personally I find that stupid unbalanced stuff in older games that largely is the result of a lack of polish tends to be more charming than what is is now where it's basically only the natural result of a character in a fairly balanced game having a couple moves that shift the flow way in their favor. Especially if they're tied to just pressing one button which means any gorilla can do it as opposed to hard stuff which at least requires a trained gorilla. I wouldn't want to go back to the old ways as the norm but I would say that there is a space in the genre for weird kusoge where they just throw their ideas at the wall without thinking about balance and not doing extensive bug testing to be made even in the modern market. People seem to want it.

[@valeoncat13]

It's a specific type of glitch in the Marvel Vs Capcom series. I believe the mention was just a joke at how broken Johnny was. AKA "hes so broken he's doing broken things from other games."

[@Amutsal]

Games are more fun when everyone has their own op nonsense to bring to the table. They suck when everyone exists on a level playing field and it just becomes a matter of "who do the devs like more this season?"

[@touhouenjoyer]

Johnny is so fucking cool

[@themando5625]

We just gonna gloss over the vocals at 5:25 ?

[@GameConnoisseur69]

Mmmmmm Johnny

[@m.czandogg9576]

The context is the cherry on top; IIRC GGVS still doesn't have rollback and these people are getting mad at ingame mechanics. Homie, you "shouldn't" even be spending your time on a game with subpar fundamental infrastructure. Life is too short for that ish! With that said, lemme get outta this comment section and do something meaningful. From the future, Granblue is getting rollback and cross play :D

[@TheMariox222]

if only johnny didn't exist...

[@dylanh.3793]

Just remember pre-patch Sol had one of the most broken mids in fighting game history and didn’t win a single evo.

[@jy61]

It was good for Strive, but one of the most broken mids in FG history? lmao

[@gatocochino5594]

​@@jy61 It's a joke I guess, f.S isn't even the best mid in strive.

[@dylanh.3793]

@@jy61 I mean like relative to it’s game. I’m sure there’s some kusoge with +100 mids but Joe Blow can execute the Shitass Maneuver and get out no problem.

[@lane9668]

@@dylanh.3793 melty has a character w/ a mid that's +7 into an infinite blockstring and you get to run this on every hard knockdown lol. melty top tiers make prepatch sol look like a joke

[@dylanh.3793]

@@lane9668 you say “top tier” like there were other characters in that tier lol sounds like infinite block strings don’t get wins in melty blood 👀

[@RioBrando_]

Surprised to see my Xrd Johnny clip make it in, don't put him in Strive tho

[@magicalgirl1296]

Xrd Johnny was so fucked up

[@ShouVertica]

LordKnight is a milia player right? The character who usually gets free damage on Oki because 9/10 times people can't be bothered to block the mixup even at the highest level. But yeah, Melty Blood has so many crazy things that it's funny that people were like "but sol + frames" lol. (Actually Sol was fine and fun to play against. Axl and Ram....not so much.

[@jotarokujo4754]

It’s an unreactable 4 way mixup….

[@ShouVertica]

@@jotarokujo4754 yep.

[@jotarokujo4754]

@@ShouVertica My point was that your original statement implied the mixup was trivial to block. Saying “can’t be bothered” implies that. Also, I think Millia is fine. A character being rewarded for pushing their win condition is pretty normal and Millia has been like this forever.

[@ShouVertica]

@@jotarokujo4754 It clearly implied the opposite. So no.

[@biggestbungus1295]

@@ShouVertica nah

[@zepolcin2412]

What a old man

[@tukoijarrett9155]

why you gotta do sonicfox like that smh

[@connorfinke506]

This is a cope and a half right here lol

[@Jaynesslessly]

mid dispensers infinitely get their turns back is my issue. they just be pressing shit and i have to play 4d chess and read their offense pattern and look for the one move that my character's fastest shitty 6 frame move can beat because i dont play sol and cant just mash a 3 frame kick in block stun and instantly punish any gaps

[@jy61]

Ah yes, the 4D chess of "I'm gonna press 2k/2p". Truly far more galaxy brain than "I'm gonna press 5k". Get over yourself lmao, most frame traps done properly beat 3f and 6f moves, or don't beat either of them. There's even a buffer for normals to easily mash as early as possible cause it's not an older fighting game. It ain't that hard. Get good.

[@Jaynesslessly]

@@jy61 go ahead and try to press those buttons without giving Sol/May/Nago an 80% hp counter hit combo

[@Link135]

@@Jaynesslessly idk what character you're talking about maybe their 6p isn't good for this but if your problem is "f.s 5H counterhit my fastest button with a gap where sol's 5k would have won" then your characters 6p would have also won probably. also sol's 5k gets counterhit where some 6ps would have won

[@reverieofmusic436]

Sonic salty because he got mollywhopped by "eurotrash". He's such a joke of a person

[@Johnny10Guns]

unblockables are cringe.

[@egrassa1480]

Johnny in xrd was fucked up therefore Sol f.S in strive is ok. Good argument Sajam

[@RabbitEarsCh]

Saying fucked up shit is okay because it's gated by execution is a take written by someone who doesn't know a IIDX player. Those people are out there hitting hundreds of frame-perfect inputs in a row and you're telling me it's okay to have some fucked up unblockable or whatever "cause it's hard"?

[@Furionic696]

2D fighters feel terrible when it comes to powerful tools because every game has like 3 tools per character, so you see those 4000 times a day, 2D games suffer from 1D options still to this day, some break the mould but most anime fighter you got like 10 moves, good luck not growing to hate some of them

[@workernetZX]

Here's Johnny!

[@GGinoboyz]

Lol