What is the Altered Scale Really?

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Adam and Peter investigate what scales have the most character over a dominant chord. It's half/whole diminished vs altered... what's your pick?
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[@callmeal3017]

If magicians reveal their secrets it takes the magic away. When musicians reveal their "secrets" it just deepens the magic!!

[@sturdychinfilms]

Well put. I don't like the word "secret" in music. It implies that information is being kept from you as a musician. It's not. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

[@deejay7339]

Holy smokes. This is the best format I've ever seen for a music podcast. Hope to see more in the future!

[@dubnitsky]

could not be better an even time

[@caoimhinbenjamin9998]

Shit camera work.

[@stretchbatchelor]

This is why OpenStudioJazz rocks!

[@DaveDevourerOfPineapple]

Its gonna take 100 watches to properly digest the sheer volume of gold in this video. You guys should have 10 million subs. Thanks for this!

[@thecount9729]

I felt like I not only understood all of this, but was also able to immediately put some of it to use, especially the pattern practice for the different "giveaways" and the triad pairs. I love feeling hopeful instead of lost!

[@warrenguitar]

Amazing musicians, pianists, improvisers and teachers, world-class. Thanks for the lesson guys, appreciated!

[@orlandoresendiz4377]

I’ve listened to the pianos intro around 10 times, you guys are awesome!!!

[@Marklar3]

3:03 "because dominant chords are part of diminished family" If you did want to go into that, all the way back in 1818 Anton Reicha, the composer/theorist/friend of Beethoven claimed that diminished chords do not even exists in his 1818 book "Course of Musical Composition". In his system, "diminished chords" are "false" interpretations of rootless dominant 9 or dominant b9 chords. If you apply this framework to music of the time, such as Chopin (who once considered studying with Reicha), you'll find that it applies very cleanly to the music. There are English translations in public domain easily available online if anyone is curious.

[@cursedswordsman]

very cool thanks for sharing

[@Marklar3]

To clarify, Reicha does acknolage the dimished triad, but the diminished 7th chords are typically explained as rootless dominants.

[@jbachman01]

For a more modern bebop exploration of that concept, Barry Harris

[@Marklar3]

@@jbachman01 Barry Harris has great way of exploring diminished chords, but I think there are notable differences in the way he see diminished chords as opposed to the 18th-19th century conception of diminished chords.

[@StopCensorship]

@@jbachman01I tried the Barry Harris method and I admit that he has a profound understanding of jazz, 6 chords/Diminished chords etc. However, I’ve noticed that everyone who uses his system seems to have a musical stutter while trying to apply it. I’m of the opinion that it’s important to be able to flow and improvise freely/naturally without having to do DEEP “Thinking”!

[@taylorvertrees6689]

This is awesome. The back and forth of ideas and view points. Love the discussion.

[@LowKeyTired-q7d]

So glad you include etudes with the music on screen cheers !!!

[@claytronico]

In the south turmeric is often paired with black pepper. Medical science finally caught up with that pairing a number of years ago, showing that a component in black pepper makes more bio-available the primary medicinal compound in turmeric. Listening to you guys mess around is medicine, and we just got to that analogy's stop. Nope, there's more, Adam is turmeric and Peter is the pepper. There, done. I'm surprised you guys don't get more views. glad you have continued putting stuff up.

[@Anonymous-cm9md]

I loved how we could hear and see the examples applied-so good! You know you hear these progressions/scales for years and now you see-oh that’s what’s going on.

[@averygottshall217]

Y’all teach the hippest concepts. Thank you open studio.

[@garygimmestad4272]

I think of all modes and scales as two tetrachords so, yeah, half-whole + whole tone for altered. The tetrachord framing helps me to recognize the character of each mode and to recognize their similarities and differences. And it bypasses orienting to the source scales. The tetrachords in Dorian are identical with a half-step between 3 and 4, and separated by a whole step. So, my thinking about modes is knowing where the half-steps are in their tetrachords and what interval is between them. And once those patterns are learned, it’s a more visual and physical memory than a theoretical one (even though theory was necessary to get there).

[@CKoppStudios]

Can’t like this enough, amazing content, so well explained, GREAT job🔥🔥🔥

[@kudancer]

This channel is so amazing wish I had this in high school

[@idnemgk]

This is a wonderful exploration of this material. Thank you both!

[@pnojazz]

Peter, I’d love to hear your take on the ballad of the sad young men. ❤

[@tomhenderson6673]

When I bring up the HW scale to non-jazz head guitarists, I call out the big dramatic riff from Radiohead's "Just." It's also simply a HW climb, but the tone and timing and where it's deployed sounds *great*.

[@21centuryhippie61]

16:50 always thought of that as a major 7 flat five chord myself! It has a lovely, surprisingly serene sound!

[@deangoritz9625]

Gotta be the best explanation and demonstration of those two great scales. Thanks fellas

[@RyJohnsonMusic]

The way of thinking about the Altered scale that made it click for me: Major scale with a sharp 1. I.E. G altered = F#major, but with G instead of F# Kinda weird but it’s technically just as many steps as the other methods

[@michaelmullmusic]

That's a great approach when you are trying to hear a full ii-V sound a tritone away

[@pabloanonlijo]

Ionian #1

[@geocosmicvalentine]

I’m so happy to see you guys this surprise morning. I really needed this today. 🥰💖 This was Crunchy Level 11 - Chipped Tooth! 😎👍🏽

[@rickreynolds36251]

The best video on this I’ve seen so far. 🙏

[@Bardon222]

14:27 playing the scale at the same time was great

[@walterpaiva719]

I'm not a musician, but I like to hear these guys talk

[@drummersmrc]

The half/whole then whole note scale is referred to by Kent Hewitt as Super Locrian. Kent mentions Chick and Herbie also.

[@Anossov]

Sometimes I like to think like this: Lydian Dominant is Myxolydian ♯4. Half-whole Diminished is Lydian Dominant «split 2» (into ♭9 and ♯9). Altered is Half-whole Diminished, but merge 5 and 6 (into the ♯5 between them). Whole-tone is Altered, but put the 9s back together. You can also go backwards, Altered is Whole-tone «split 2», etc.

[@rgferreira78]

Why not an album made of the first minutes of these episodes? WE would love it

[@sidneylutara9786]

Awesome stuff like always. Thx for sharing your knowledge. 🙏🏼

[@JesusIsLord411]

Super helpful for me to re-calibrate my thinking on modes/scales

[@SWExplore]

LOVE YOU GUYS! LOVE THE JAZZ!!

[@alejandroacevedo9409]

Man you guys are masters🎉🎉

[@elephantfootrisers]

Great lesson. Listening to you is training my ears. Will watch this over and over. Is that Queens Blvd in the background?

[@OMNICHROMATICA]

Absolutely wonderful.

[@dominichowles9092]

This is a top draw post chaps. Keep it coming.

[@theone9638]

You guys posting this early, nice! 👌

[@brian106699]

This! I’ve been too lazy to think about the difference. I knew they were, but I’m like no way. Brain exploded.

[@djshmul1]

Omg the same

[@manusiabumi88]

Me too 😢

[@OMNICHROMATICA]

Damn it bro there's 427k other people subbing this channel. I want to be the only one learning these secrets.

[@callmeal3017]

If magicians reveal their secrets it takes the magic away. If musicians reveal their "secrets" it just deepens the magic. All the music masters are busy sharing their "secrets" every time you hear them play!!

[@erichkusterer6339]

Great stuff❤

[@WilliamSaadGuitar]

Great stuff, thank you!

[@Ericstlaurent]

excellent episode!

[@davidsummerville351]

Great intro riffs! 😎🤓

[@pbissell1]

Great lesson.

[@BobMazzo]

Hey guys, the triad pairs over the half whole dim scale just knocked me out. 😮😮😮 At 17:20. But the triads CHANGE in this case. C#m G. Bbm. Em, etc.

[@Wanielyo]

Half diminished and half whole tone is the way that worked best on guitar for me. It made it easier to see the interval patterns all over the neck without needing to know and repurpose the melodic minor scales.

[@alphakid9000]

Love this ep!

[@richardadeymusic5698]

Auditory Dynamite..! - long live the longer form deep dive episodes .:)

[@brendonk-71]

Love this❤❤❤❤

[@mitchkahle314]

Great opening.

[@nelsonramos208]

Brilliant!

[@macwellbeef]

Super interesting how these different approaches to the dominant sound can impact people’s ears differently. Like they seem to agree that the diminished sound has “less tension” in it than altered bc of the natural 13. My ear absolutely disagrees (tho it’s all valid of course). Something about the natural 13 with the #11, # and b9s, the combination of that makes the diminished sound quite a bit more tense to my ear than the altered, which sounds a bit more cohesively “minor.” Like diminished seems to teeter between both minor and major vibes. Idk if I’m explaining this right, but this video rocks!

[@vincognito]

I like using the diminished scale on Secondary Dominant Chords that resolve to a minor chord. On the other hand, (no pun intended), I use the Altered Scale on Tritone Substitution chords. They seem to be the most appropriate under these conditions. Using the Altered Scale in a V7 to I situation, will get you a lot of outside notes, if that's what you're shooting for but I tend to be more conservative. The flip side is also true (at least for me), that if you use the Diminished Scale on a Tritone Substitution, again you'll get a lot of outside notes. I don't often make those last two choices.

[@tbonealex]

I actually prefer the H/W diminished in major keys (the 13 is the major third of the key center) and in minor I prefer altered or fifth mode harmonic minor.

[@babydiminished]

On the guitar G13 b9#11 is more like EMajor⁶ over G⁷ - could just play it on the 6th (DbM⁷) - either way a major sixth on a dominant is a nice move in the family of B diminished. When i see G⁷ alt i think of expressing it with minor 6th on the fifth of the tritone sub or borrowing from Its secondary diminished family and playing Eb⁷°, or mixing Bb minor 6 with Eb⁷. (So a dominant and its imortant minor from the b6 degree.. or even Eminor⁶° I realize the color pallette changes slightly as a result.

[@rgraham9792]

I think of the altered scale as just using the Tritone #4 over the top, for some reason that’s easier for me to fathom, for example for the G7, I play Db7#4 scale which ends up being the same thing as the altered scale, using a 3,7,9 voicing for Db7 works fine as well

[@LanceHamright]

This week on Piano Jazz with Marilyn McPartland

[@MikeL-7]

It’s a major 7 tetrachord. It can have a minor third or a major third.

[@cameronpeterson1175]

Cool stuff. I learned the altered scale as a 16 year old (25 years ago) and remember thinking "what the heck is this crap all about"? I couldn't understand it. But just the other day I was noodling around with the diminished scale and thought "wait, is this the altered?" You answered that question. Thanks you. Hey, what is that music app you're using?

[@Thomonpiano]

i cannot believe this is free

[@aron.gortman]

Luka Doncic looking slim and fit for once in the offseason.

[@sidneylutara9786]

This is really "the nerdiest stuff" ever, ...but also the hippest!

[@ums07]

Excellent

[@tiluriso]

As far as usage I essentially have sort of rule of thumb and more or less use the Dominant Diminished exclusively for a target chord w/ a major third, , whereas the Altered Dominant I use for both minor and major third containing 'target/tonic chords) , I prefer this more 'diatonic ' (i.e., less chromatic) strategy. And on a complementary note, , I will more or less only use the Phrygian Dominant for a minor type target chord, same w/ the so called 'Lydian diminished', I think both work best if the intended target of tha Dominant chord is a minor tonic. If I recall correctly, Adam kinda adhered to some of the same principles on at least one of his guided practice live streams, where on a I/vi/ii/V cycle, the vi was turned into a V7/ii and he employed the Phrygian Dominant chord-scale, then on the V7 goin to the I, the chord scale employed was the half whole Dominant Diminished scale.

[@grocheo1]

Guys you're amazing

[@kankan7940]

thanks masters

[@strat1227]

Love the duo lingo lessons 😂

[@alexander_llancer]

Excelente contenido

[@jazzpianorocks]

wow fantastic

[@medioenjodamedioenserio2510]

Hey! Isn´t the altered scale just like the Secondary Dominant, but from a diferent starting point? For example; G7alt would be just like Db7sharp11, but starting from G.

[@rgraham9792]

Yes! That’s how I think of it too! Just dawned on me

[@bierrepoulez8524]

Turmeric makes food look yellow

[@isaacrobinson8065]

Can you play and entire solo just using the Diminished or Altered Scale respectively? 🎹

[@easypeasy2938]

Could you do a breakdown of C Major vs A minor?

[@pianoman_JP]

Excellent, is there a pdf? Anyway ... gala!

[@Buckleupbucko]

I can’t believe I actually understood anything that was said in this video. I must be getting pretty good at the piano 😂

[@jerrylevin8497]

great episode. is there a pdf? i don't see a link.

[@johnnyblue1101]

Regarding “altered Dom vs Diminished scale Dom”, may I suggest we stop confusing the dynamic at play here: 1) “Altered” strictly speaking is “diminished” whole-tone (just ask Jamie Aebersold for starters) and it’s got the flat 13. Also called Super-Locrian for some reason. Half-Whole Dim dominant, on the other hand, does NOT incorporate the flat 13. Try seeing that starting with a C diminished chord (C, Eflat, Gflat then A). Subtle but “noteworthy” sound difference. Still too much confusing nomenclature out here fir students if the genre

[@tiluriso]

The Altered Dominant/ Scale, Diminished-whole tone/ 7th mode of melodic minor is also called 'Super Locrian' simply because the tetrachord it forms is a half diminished 7th (m7b5) chord. If you stack the melodic minor in thirds, and extract its 7th chords you'll see that

[@Rafaelfo.]

Love this channel. I always think it's pitched at exactly the right level for jazz musicians who are already pretty solid but need that extra boost in understanding. Please keep up the videos and thank you!

[@Rafaelfo.]

100% agree with what Peter is saying around 9mins

[@The8BitPianist]

Is this an episode of you'll hear it? I think I'll have to watch on KZbin and stop listening on Spotify from now.

[@robintyburski9918]

I think you're mixing up your spices Adam. Tumeric is the yellow one, it tastes nothing like cumin.

[@JohnTussey]

Par Excellence!

[@Anthony_Collier]

This is how I view the Half/Whole & Whole/Half diminished scales: The Half-Whole Diminished Scale is literally just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a half step. And the Whole-Half Diminished Scale is just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a Whole step. C Half-Whole Diminished Scale: C, D♭, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B♭ The 2 Diminished 7th chords: C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A) Db diminished 7th (Db-E-G-Bb) C Whole-Half Diminished Scale: C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B The 2 Diminished 7th chords: C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A) D diminished 7th (D-F-Ab-B) Sorry if I’m late to the party 😅😅. I just know it helps me see and construct it more quickly now.

[@julienfraipont2810]

Haaaa, finally someone mentions the great B. Harris. If I may add something: it could be interesting see it as a whole. There is 1 diminished scale: for exemple here > Ab diminished. Ab diminished is made of Ab B (Cb) D and F + the bass note of the dominants made from this > G Bb Db and E. So we get: Ab Bb B Db D E F G. If you want to play this scale on a diminished chord you start this scale from Ab B D or F (according to the diminished) AND you play the same notes on a dominant but from G Bb Db or E ( according to the dominant) (half-whole)... Same for the two other diminished... Have fun! Peace ✌🏻!

[@Anthony_Collier]

@@julienfraipont2810 I deleted the Barry Harris part before reading your comment 😅🙃 I thought it was off topic lol. But your perspective is interesting. I’m going to try to see it that way.

[@E.L.I.Y.A.H.U]

Would you say the piano you play is intentionally out of tune like a regular piano? Or is the problem with the piano's display screen?

[@ImpulseGenerator]

we are on to some danny elfman shit here!

[@greenscreenscene7076]

look at a dominant chord up a half step and play the melodic minor scale Dom demystified

[@VzlaAndJAZZ]

What software do you use to make the piano appear on the screen?

[@佳子生田-w3e]

it should be changed structure of the money. we should make some video it says "money is not all thing of life for us.

[@RicardoReyes-uh1he]

5:38 was casually very beautiful ;(

[@СергейШишкин-л5с]

🎉

[@luisxugar853]

I like better the piano sound than the rhodes.

[@andrewstrasser]

I thought the myxolidian was more hip in a bossa Nova vibe

[@Rheologist]

Is the thumbnail supposed to say "ALTERED VS DIMINISHED"?

[@alonwiesz3180]

Solarrrr

[@ResistTheNonsense]

Adam who?

[@bellygunnermusic]

totally "Gorge' "

[@tenthgate8090]

Peter martin is hilarious

[@williammdsilva]

Damn

[@benkatof5852]

Maybe as a guitarist I simplify things too much, but as you say the flat vs nat 13th, plus the symmetrical movable nature of diminished and dominant chords available in half/whole scale are the key differences.

[@mathtrixmusiclix4248]

Good lord….I suck.😞

[@loujr9869]

These guys are probably saying the same thing to themselves when they see the greats playing. Its not about being the best but enjoying your musical journey and learning to the best of your ability.

[@neverdiminished]

Cumin and Turmeric are nothing like each other

[@joshuamollette1676]

Thank you 😂 Terrible comparison.

[@_sonicfive]

Don't be Half-Whole.

[@LowKeyTired-q7d]

😂😂😂