ORC ROMANCE, MONSTERS, and BOOKTOK

[@ReadswithRachel]

Check out Rocket Money for free: RocketMoney.com/readswithrachel #rocketmoney #personalfinance

[@Princess_Weekes]

As someone who spoke about this a few months back in a video I'm glad people are talking about this more and listening to BIPOC romance fans about this topic.

[@ratgurl1]

OMG Princess!!! I was gonna recommend your video in the comments here lol

[@tsi_lusine]

PRINCESS!

[@ReadswithRachel]

holy shit HI this is wild because i was just watching your video from yesterday about book censorship HI!

[@Evelyn_Okay]

😮‍💨 I foolishly thought The Shape of Water had opened ppls eyes the what the "monster" in a monster movie really looks like.

[@FEARSICKNESS]

kinda wish people with the "just turn your brain off" stance would understand that, on the positive side, there is a lot of fun to be had in critically examining art! and on the negative side, being able to "turn your brain off" when it comes to works that harbor some form of bigotry, be that overt or covert, is in and of itself a bit privileged.

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

That, and I don't think enough people realize that an author can make a "turn you brain off"/ feel-good story while putting a lot of thought into curating that environment. The author shouldn't be turning their brain off in the process of writing that kind of book, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[@CEMonaghanOfficial]

This. I genuinely find "turn your brain off" stories to be immensely boring. Furthermore, I generally find the people who champion this kind of engagement with stories to also be the kind of people that are allergic to thinking about real problems we're facing and flashing their privilege to NOT engage with these issues (like you mentioned.) I know I've had it a lot better than others, but I've experienced enough marginalization - especially with my disability, my experiences with homelessness, and indirectly as part of the LGBTQIA+ umbrella - that I cannot afford to not grapple with these difficult subjects. This is why marginalized people often make the best and longest-lasting art - we cannot afford to be blind.

[@ihsissmedeiros4482]

Yeah, i turn my brain off as in i can ignore some plot holes to a point,not that i lose all my sense of criticism. I just don't want to stress about letters that are now numbers and chemical equations.

[@wanda_walker]

Racism aside, seeing that cover and then hearing this described as "monster romance" is hilarious/pathetic. He's a regular dude with horns, a tail, and some fur. That's not a monster, that's just a satyr. Like, these people would not last a day in the same room as the pyramidhead smut writers, just saying.

[@MykkiOnTheCusp]

True.

[@Amaiguri]

Is it even "Monster Romance" if they only have 4 limbs? XDDDD

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

I've read some alien romances where the cover is just like a green buff dude, but in the book, the dude actually has like a crocodile shaped head and stuff. 😂

[@onesantalks8105]

​@@Amaiguri 😂😂😂😂 I can't

[@monster-enthusiast]

Bro not even a Satyr. Satyrs have goat legs at least.

[@birdenthusiast5421]

Glad to see some more discussion of this topic. I've been uncomfortable for a while with how it seems like elves are codified in fantasy as a stand-in for idealized whiteness, while the "bad" fantasy races all match up with racist stereotypes too consistently for it to be a coincidence. I've seen some authors do interesting work deconstructing these tropes in the fantasy space but too often it's just.... entirely uncritical of why we've got the Western fantasy tropes that we do

[@emilienocture7215]

could you perhaps recommend any of the books doing the deconstruction work? pretty pretty pleaaaase

[@birdenthusiast5421]

@@emilienocture7215 Admittedly my favourite examples lean more towards scifi, but if you're open to genre blending I'd recommend checking out the works of Nalo Hopkinson; she does a mixture of science fiction, fantasy and horror, and I'd say she deconstructs a lot of the implicit Eurocentrism those genres tend to have.

[@likepocketsjingling]

@@birdenthusiast5421 Thank you for that! I came here to ask the same question about recommendations too :)

[@BanjoJill]

"The cavity between my legs." I get what she was trying to say but that sounded so painful. I'm scared.

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

Cavity, when associated with the body, is always super clinical and kinda gross as a consequence. Like, I have cavities that house my organs. Please leave them alone, lol.

[@MortMe0430]

Right? Like does her vag have a tooth that got infected down to the root and has to be filled in with metal?

[@Artemis-athena]

They could have just say “vãgina.

[@ReadswithRachel]

HI listen i know the picture at the very beginning of the video is missing, but i refuse to fix it because this thing was such a pain in the ass it took FOUR HOURS to export and I simply will not re export for that lmao. the picture pops up around 00:48 anyways. Anyways, fuck the export process for this video

[@JaredNunn-tl3wk]

The editors in the comments feel for you and understand

[@DarthHydra456]

Same. I get it.

[@kbird6208]

I figured if it was not there there was a damn good reason 😂

[@lagoonsnaps6917]

"He bludgeoned others on his way to get to her (the queen) to propose to her instead of just writting a letter because hes more barbaric than her," THIS IS BOWSER AND PRINCESS PEACH IN THE MARIO MOVIE! LMAO

[@ReadswithRachel]

Yeah, so it turns out that that’s exactly what this was supposed to be 😂 bowser and peach inspired

[@gregoryvn3]

Repurposed fanfic strikes again??! Is this Fifty Shades all over again! 😮

[@Sarah-gd1hl]

"I turned my brain off to read this" is what we say about like, fun books with big plot holes, not literal racial stereotypes

[@ReadswithRachel]

EXACTLY

[@minimareanie1044]

Hoping you see this, but there is a monster romance story that I feel is several steps above most others in the genre. It's called Someone You Can Build A Nest In, it's a sapphic romance that takes place entirely from the monsters POV as she falls in love with a human woman, learns what love really is, and helps her girlfriend deal with her incredibly toxic family. It's quite good, and I personally found it to be a refreshing palette cleanser after the slop that pervades the genre.

[@MeMyshelfAndI]

While SYCBANI is my fav book of 2024, I don't think I'd categorize it with Monster Romance. I've been calling it a horromantasy, but it has more in common with Fantasy Romance or Cozy Fantasy than it does with Monster Romance. There's overlap, and yes it's technically an ace sapphic romance with an alien/monster... but there are more things that go into a genre than just that? The conventions and the pacing and the demographic and the intention of the story matter more.

[@emitheorbit1118]

I mean, the monster is a woman, that alone makes it fresh among the rest

[@MeMyshelfAndI]

@@emitheorbit1118 no, there are already female monster romance that are sapphic and ones that are ace. this can't be fresh for a monster romance because it's _not a Monster Romance to begin with._ totally different tone, pacing, storytelling, purpose, etc. great book that I love!! but absolutely a different genre. (just like having a hero and a quest doesn't automatically make a book an Adventure book; Han and Leia doesn't automatically make Star Wars a Romance.)

[@emitheorbit1118]

@@MeMyshelfAndI I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to the OP

[@zenfirebird5360]

What type of monster. Are they a monster or just human with few monster parts like horns and a tail?

[@conline5489]

It feels so weird to call orcs monsters, we don't call elves or dwarves monsters, despite their similar amount of human features. What is the divide between fantasy races we see as equals to humans, and those we call monsters? The monsters i like are things that you can't reasonably comare to humans, the theme of calling humanoids who are only slightly different, but have a more "barbaric" culture monsters feels... Weird.

[@bettyunicorn6132]

Hi Spleens!

[@HuckleberryCyn]

For a while I feel like “orc” romances are just a sub-in for the “noble savage” trope. Like, it’s not “okay” anymore to write romances about prairie school teachers getting kidnapped by Indigenous men (jk it never was), so this is the next best thing.

[@chellyfishing]

This is it exactly!!

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

I'm not super into orc romance, but from my outside perspective, I always associated it with breeding kinks and all the things that go along with that. I will not be describing it because I don't want to run someone's day, lol.

[@ClementineOlympia]

I can't stand Orc romance or certain tropes with alien romances. I wish Kindle would stop recommending them. I read one orc book 3 years ago, dnf, and deleted the book. Now i have to deal with amazons stupid system to try and constantly say I am not interested. Over and over again. Just a for a new orc author to show up.

[@Batz-on-paws]

I hate that paranormal/fantasy romance is just... this. It's so hard to find books to read as a YA reader when all the books in the store are ACOTAR wannabes and toxic relationships that get excused with "I have trauma"

[@shanicek5188]

Sjm needs to answer for her crimes 😭

[@brandon8667]

I’m watching the rest of the video but I want to interject something. Tolkiens orcs were representing the forces of Industrialization, destroying the magic of the world. If people with good intentions or bad want to uncritically look at Tolkien orcs and call them black people stand ins; that says more about them than tolkien. That authors presumption is inaccurate and lazy to make. Tolkien recognized the problem with his orcs and its much more complicated than most people let on. Most people aren’t going to dig that deep though (he spent significantly more time writing about his world, than in the world itself. It’s well documented) He was a left leaning college professor from the 1930s. He was progressive for his time but he is still a product of his time. It’s not responsible to cede the ground of Tolkien to the right. He’s one of ours. And those damn movies live rent free in most men’s minds. Tractors made him nervous for f-sake, he’s ours. Frankly people are backtracking the Orcs of d&d, look at Gary Gygax’s beliefs, onto Tolkiens orcs. They are not the same

[@noko8692]

Not a romance nor a book, but genuinely Dungeon Meshi (manga) has some of the best worldbuilding around fantasy races that Ive ever seen all the while avoiding these unfortunate... undertones (orcs in there were chased away by elfs but tbh they're pretty damn chill when you dont piss them off or trespass on their home) ; there's the portrayal of how long-lived races and short lived races see each other (as pretentious or as children basically), how it permeates their culture and the different subsconscious bias... and its not even the focus of the story but its so omnipresent in how all of the characters interacts and all of their story, its seriously impressive As a tidbit, in this world the word 'troll' was created by halfling to refer to tallmen (human) usually to warn the other, and the tallmen basically mistook that as warning tales against some sort of creature lmfao

[@lauracamille4065]

Reading critically is SO much fun! I loved my literary criticism class in college because it taught me how viewing the same text through different lenses can change it so much. Agreed- you don't have to turn your brain off to have fun reading!

[@JadeReloaded]

I love how you were concerned if you can use the word "legs" but then just went ahead and said "pen!s" several times. Anyways, get well soon!

[@themanbehindthecurtains]

So don't eat while you watch this because you WILL choke when the 'scene' is described and that fuckin caterpillar starts wriggling around

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

😂

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

"MOist and swOllEN" 😭

[@readbycandle7489]

😂

[@apigeon4192]

D:

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

This comment was wild to read and still could not have prepared me

[@FridayGirl19]

The monster romance trend feels *very* reminiscent of the 'forced seduction' (that means r*pe) of the sixties and seventies romances when the s*xual revolution happened but societal standards still said that good girls didn't do that before marriage.

[@emitheorbit1118]

When you put it like that, it makes me realize why it never clicked with me and always got the ick from them, despite the fact that I like monsters myself. But the issue is: I like women only, and so the fact there are basically no romances where the human is a man and the monster is a woman, made it the initial factor on my disinterest before realizing this.

[@emilybastong3896]

"He smooches the bean" Stop it, Rachel, I'm howling😂 Edit: SHE GAVE BIRTH DURING SEX?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! I'm ill. I'm so ill.

[@daddytchaik]

this is a difficult topic for me bc I am HUGE monster romance fan, especially orc romance, but even my favorites of the genre sometimes have these tropes. what I want most out of monster romance is “society thinks this monster is horrible and evil, but they’re actually not”. (there is plenty of analysis about monsters as an allegory for queer people that I really connect with as a queer person, but that’s a whole other essay.) even still, that concept can easily become “this guy is just one of the few redeemable orcs” (“one of the good ones”) rather than “orcs were never actually evil brutes”. I just want to read about my big green people with fangs without them being portrayed as a “barbarian” that must be civilized by a woman’s love 😅 (and that’s not even getting into all the gender essentialism that shows up in this genre)

[@mazeltovcocktail2.0]

"is burbar supposed to sound like barbarian" It's either that or Berber and neither of those are a great choice but one is definitely way more racist

[@MosseningEntity]

Don't those both mean the same thing or am I mistaken? It definitely feels like a somewhat more subtle word to say the racism.

[@gio_giotte]

​@@MosseningEntity Barbarian came from greek barbar and meant "stutterer" thorugh onomatopoeia in relation to every non greek population. The term was absorbed into latin and became barbarus and it was a way to other non latin people or those who haven't fully integrated into proper roman high society. The romans looked down heavily on outsiders so with time the term evolved to mean brute and uncivilized. After the fall of the western roman empire it cemented itself because these populations were pagans and took time to evangelize. Berber comes from the french barbare and has the exact same connotation, it was a colonial term used to refer to colonized people of North Africa.. The proper term would now be Amazigh and denotes people and tribes with ancestry that predate the arabian conquest of the region. The relationship between the term Berber and Amazigh is complex and more nuanced than this though so I'd refer to MeNa writers and thinkers to deepen your understanding of it. Some tribes and people choose to use the term Berber and it's in their own right of self determination to do so as it's their term to reclaim.

[@MosseningEntity]

@gio_giotte That's fascinating. Thank you for the information.

[@jennderqueer]

i'm sorry, the sex scene in this book is just... no. jail. jail for author for one thousand years.

[@JadeReloaded]

Miette reference? A person of culture, I see.

[@redblushinrose]

TO THE MILLION YEAR DUNGEON WITH THEM

[@strangeaelurus]

​@@JadeReloaded i was thinking the same thing! XD

[@oneshot453]

genuinely annoys me when I see people say fiction doesn’t affect reality just to defend their shitty smut

[@kaialexander6806]

Ah yes, my favourite fictional character Count Fædinand von Zeppelin.

[@AlishaHerbiederbie]

Is it bad that my brain autocorrected that to Lord Farquad von Zeppelin?

[@TheNumnutRandomness]

Only second to his distant cousin, Cliff S. Noteworthy

[@lavendermothboy]

just wanna say that reading critically on purpose is the only way i had fun in high school english when we were given a book i didnt like. because then i could talk about why i didnt like it in a more nuanced and complex way.

[@definitelynotashark1799]

Right? Turning your brain off just makes it looking at words.

[@Theliteraryghost_]

“Burbarre” sounds way too similar to “Berber” which is the name of a real ethnic group.

[@tobyaseme9737]

It’s not outdated. That’s what they actually call themselves.

[@Theliteraryghost_]

@@tobyaseme9737 thank you for the correction, I couldn’t remember if they still referred to themselves by that name!

[@tobyaseme9737]

@@Theliteraryghost_ I mean…well….the hyper-correct name is Amazigh, but Berber is the name used by most people, and it’s not really considered an issue on a wide scale. It’s “Barbary” that’s the outdated term.

[@ReadswithRachel]

I didn't even realize that was the name of an ethnic group and now I'm veeeeeeeery curious if that was on purpose

[@libertyrichardson4724]

The word barbarian also comes from "bar bar," which was what Greeks thought any non-Greek language sounded like (i.e. babbling) so using what sounds like a mishmash of Barbarian and Berber is kind of a wild choice.

[@cj1986x]

Thank you saying critical reading is fun, because it is. It's really is. I always read critically as best as I can and it's not only fun to think about what you are reading, you also develop a better sense of what books you'll enjoy because you understand writing and your own self better. Conversely you develop a better sense of what books won't be worth your time.

[@Musiclove702]

oh I have to shout out my friend's podcast pages and prejudice, 'cause they have an episode all about monster romance and racial stereotypes and it's absolutely worth a listen

[@ReadswithRachel]

I’m gonna look this up!

[@pilveon]

Thank you for the rec! This podcast seems like just the thing I've been looking for.

[@Zealous_Delusional]

I think the “it’s not that deep” argument is used when “they did not think this through” is more appropriate. The problem is the latter implies someone’s at fault which is uncomfy and some people seem to think being bigoted is less embarrassing than being ignorant. Also, I’m glad I haven’t been to Florida because I would have picked up one of those fluffy bastards on sight. If not friend, why friend shaped?

[@Sarahcakes613]

I am SO SO sorry for what I'm about to say, but regarding the tight inner layer thing... All I could think of was this one omegaverse book I read where there's like, the first... space inside the omega, and then another. um. channel. that leads to the actual womb. And like, you can fuck into the first space without hitting the second. Like y'know, hanging out in the anteroom before you go into the office. so maybe the writer was kind of going for that energy? I don't know. I don't want to know. I'm so sorry I've said any of this.

[@readbycandle7489]

😂 hanging out in the anteroom

[@_teen_hag_]

after reading this, i really want to pick the brains of the folks that came up with the omegaverse 🤔 "hanging in the anteroom" is a CRAZY fictional biological feature

[@Sarahcakes613]

@@_teen_hag_ if it helps (it probably doesn't), I read a ton of omegaverse and this one particular author is the only one I've encountered who wrote the pre-womb room. now that I've written those words in that order I'm gonna go consider all my life choices.

[@aliaspurr9745]

@@_teen_hag_ Strange Aeons is actually doing a thorough deep dive on the history and origins of omegaverse and the implications therein. Do recommend the vids, but be prepared for an absolutely unhinged story

[@legendaryfrog4880]

When people tell me 'just shut off your brain and enjoy the movie/book/show/game' I now respond with 'try turning your brain on and enjoy the movie/book/show/game' critical analysis is exactly how I enjoy my art. I don't want to shut off my brain. I won't enjoy it, then.

[@onesantalks8105]

13:51 i like being critical of the media I consume, I enjoy toxic problematic tropes but does not mean I can't critique the portrayal of it

[@NortonTaylor]

As a mom I'm so offended by the immediate suggestion of a second child getting the FMC horny. That read more "12yo fanfic" than anything else to me.

[@cheyenneguest4495]

Yeah there's definitely a conversation to be had about monster romance (at least regarding the herosextual ones since the queer monster romances I've read are more concious about what the monsters represent when involving a human in the mix or use it to talk about things in a way that isn't tone deaf) and how often things get ignored for the "satisfaction" of a sexual scenario for people, especially white women. Bc things do bleed into the work as Rachel mentions and it can be so uncomfortable to see while reading whether it was meant to be that way or not. Critical thinking doesn't ruin the "fun", it's meant to make you understand the work, why it has the elements that it does and even that talking about it with others will expand your view on it since nobody has the exact same thoughts about something even if they read it at the same time.

[@crouchingidiot]

I think another layer to this is that the vast majority of monster romance protagonists are white women. It kind of makes the “savage poc coded man” more of a stark contrast

[@kittenskittenskittenskittens]

I love that she is the kindest, most generous, whitest white lady to have ever existed and he just HAS to have this democratically-elected benevolent queen based on a parasocial relationship he developed after hearing a few stories. Also I assumed immediately that burbarre was a twist on barbarian.

[@voicememosforthevoid]

i'm folding laundry while i'm listening so maybe i missed something but the beginning of this book feels like being tossed into a fanfic for a fandom i have no connection to. very much "don't worry about the world building, we have a harmful character dynamic to get to."

[@chellyfishing]

This also ties so well into Marines’ recent post about the ambiguously brown romantasy love interest. Also, I don’t think that’s a correct use of the word spider. Do they mean it’s like a spiderweb? Because a web is different from a spider.

[@tsi_lusine]

"To spider" is used as a verb, it's just not common.

[@chellyfishing]

@ the only verb definition in the dictionary is related to web crawling on the Internet

[@pauieeepau]

I've seen spiderweb as a verb. So that's my vote.

[@festivesnake7288]

always appreciate the kinds of nuanced dialogues you encourage in your videos! reading everything completely uncritically is a plague upon this earth and I’m glad people are talking about it more.

[@frankensteinlives]

Learning to analyze literature feels like learning to savor food, how to eat the whole sandwich, so to speak. There's nothing wrong with eating only the bun, but why would you when you could sink your teeth into something and feel the crunch of the lettuce and the tang of the cheese? I'm not going to make anyone clean the plate, and not every sandwich is going to be fun to savor (sometimes people forget to grill both sides! It happens!) but why should I? Why yes, I am eating dinner right now why do you ask? *Edited bc I got to the caterpillar part: Eating during this was a mistake.

[@jenny5272]

The orc's name. I am genuinely in shock, jaw dropped. How did literally no one call her out before she announced it online? That is just so absurd.

[@SuperEkkorn]

Tbf, as a non-English speaker I didn't immediately clock it from the screenshot either, to me it initially looked Middle-Eastern coded, not that it would be okay either.

[@atherisGAY]

I'm also not a native speaker and dyslexic, I tend to not pronounce most words/names I don't immediately recognize in my head so it didn't register to me either until I watched the video.. That should've been noticed 100% by someone before that book was published.. And id say it should've been noticed by the author too, they wrote that name presumably a lot of times

[@DarwinRoger893]

Tbh i didnt clock the word either, it has some semblance of middle eastern name and ive seen similar sounding names from where I'm around.

[@shadowfox009x]

Yeah, if I pronounce the name in my native language it sounds perfectly fine. I had to conciously try an English pronunciation to figure out what the slur might be.

[@shadowfox009x]

@@DarwinRoger893 Googling, I actually found several men with that name. Ethnically, all seem to be from the Middle East.

[@pebbleinboot]

When you were talking about the prince having her portrait my mind went to Shrek and Lord Farquaad so I was very confused when you began talking about a terrible movie based on a terrible book 😅 I know it's a common trope about obsession but my mind is hopelessly Shrekified

[@CEMonaghanOfficial]

I am SEVERELY trying to avoid typing egregious Shrek-based puns in response. Well played, lmao

[@kandycult]

Misread, thoguht this was referencing Shrek x Farquaad and I wondered if I missed something in the movies

[@bib4eto656]

​@@kandyculthahahaha same 😭

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

These iner species books can fall into the same sketchy tropes so easily. An alien romance book I read recently reminded me how sci-fi can actually be used in a thought-provoking way. The human girl was kidnapped, but it was an accident by the AI on an alien ship. The aliens collect things from the galaxy to put in their museum, but you don't know that right away, so its an interesting twist. There is another point in the story where the alien doesn't know if he should see her as an "animal" or a "person." That was kind of the 3 act conflict. This seems like the things that should actually exist in an alien x human romance. Like, what are the ethics of us bumping uglys? lol.

[@turtlestar87]

Apparently these two went to the Court of Wings and Ruin school of mourning those who died tragically.

[@ReadswithRachel]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@aliner66]

I'm so sorry you got sick but your ranting about the Zeppelin in a broken voice was hilarious hahaha get well soon!

[@ReadswithRachel]

Thank you I am currently on cough drop number 4754379

[@Wildchildstudioco]

That rant had my cackling especially the harder she went in.. the higher her voice rose 😂😂😂

[@suprafatadecontact]

"Integrating these beasts? But they don't even speak our language, we don't know if they can be trusted!" Perfect representation of Medieval Europe right there! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@UmamiMamiUwU]

You said "orcs" and "romance fantasy" and I knew *EXACTLY* where we were heading with today's video. 💀

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

28:12 It can be a verb, but I think we hear "spidering" or "spidered" more often than just "spider." Eg. The ice began to break, spidering quickly in our direction.

[@alexandrahoward3686]

My favorite line from any book ever is from the husband's perspective in The Grip of It, when he turns to his wife sitting on the bed, who has then fully lost her mind - "Like a car crash, I can't look away. I search for my wife through the spiderweb of glass." The incredibly evocative image this book gave me actually made me put it down to think about it for the moment. The broken image of his wife. The horror of their situation. The fact that he can do nothing to stop it, and he's already too late. The imagery of her reflection, shattered as much as her mental state. There are so many authors who wish they could write prose half as good as this in so few words. I think it's good when authors yoke words together and make verbs out of nouns to create an image that isn't as direct as just describing it, but it can get overused very quickly. This book needed a good editor to trim a lot of the fat, at the very least.

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

​@@alexandrahoward3686Yeah, that's a nice use of it. Especially because the broken glass looks like a web, and the situation feels like one.

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

​@@alexandrahoward3686 love the double meaning. Thanks for sharing.

[@kamimaru587]

Ive always liked monster romance but as a person of colour it's so exhausting to find decent ones that don't feel lowkey racist, or where the main character isn't always super dainty small and white , ive been burnt out on the genre for a few months due to this. It feels like such a rare treat when i find one where the main character is a woman of colour and the monster isnt giving racist stereotypes 😭 im glad people are talking about this, ive avoided specifically orc, minotaur, and alien romances for years because of some of these tropes because its so prevelent with those specifically. Like you can absolutely write super attractive monster men without taking from indigenous cultures or making them "savage" to a lily white and pure fmc 🥲

[@bib4eto656]

42:15 I don't know why this is a thing, by the way; reminds me of the Mass Effect video games where one dev, in an interview, when asked why there are no Turian women to be seen, despite them existing and being talked about, said "What are we gonna make, a Turian with lipstick?". Took them quite some time to introduce one.... And then killed her at the end of the quest.

[@kati4858]

When she described the picture plot with the Italian guy who fell in love with a picture and tried to kidnap a girl because of love my dumbass immediately went to "Aah, Mozart's Zauberflöte" and not the obviously one

[@melowlw8638]

as someone who was obsessed with this opera at the age of 2, this is fucking hilarious

[@aliciashoe]

The inclusion of the crawling caterpillar footage as you recount the particulars of his downstairs mixup…. Very cursed. Also… “curtain of hair parted”, hate that lol. Makes it sound like a solid hair chamber that the appendage resides within. Like furry pocket doors, instead of just what I assume is just a mass of hair that conceals the otherwise limp noodle.

[@aliciashoe]

This book is my nightmare between the offensive tropes, and the truly cringey sex.

[@ReadswithRachel]

Yeah lol so the earlier in the video is the more I sensor because I just assume that KZbin won’t flag me after like 30 minutes in the video unless I say something like really outlandish 😂

[@aliciashoe]

@@ReadswithRachel don’t get me wrong, I cackled lol. I just couldn’t shake the image of it wriggling for the rest of the vid lol.

[@sarahbaker7100]

@@aliciashoe I was thinking some sort of prehensile appendages pulling the hair back like curtains. (I’m sticking with the visual because it’s cracking me up. )

[@aliciashoe]

@@sarahbaker7100 in my mind the fur curtain functioned like automatic doors with like a sensor lol. I like where your head is at though, far more mechanically conceivable.

[@ranniazorya]

The Burbarre terminology in Prince of Beasts is reminding me very strongly of the many different indigenous groups under the Berber category 😬 I’ve found that most writers who perpetuate Orientalism in their writings often borrow from cultures they think are unknown to their ideal demographics. It’ll seem like they’ve made something up but they’ve often lifted it wholesale from some part of the world they consider ‘obscure’. Also the sheer amount of gold and metal he’s described as wearing and the places he wears them in sounds like an Orientalist description of a ‘desert man’ (stories like these often hegemonize people into one caricature like the ‘sultan’ that pitches a gold-filled tent wherever he conquers).

[@noditschi]

I wanted to comment on the «Burbarre» and thought to myself that someone most probably already mentioned this. I wasn't wrong. Also yes to every point on the vague orientalism. I feel every single word of it.

[@NadirEatsRocks]

Tea Dragon Society and Dungeon Meshi continue to be the superior "demi-human species based on racial minorities" books. The coding is still very much there in both of them but they manage to approach it appropriately and do a great job of humanizing the demi-human races

[@astralvelocity]

44:26 midway through laughing hysterically at the silent caterpillar footage i realized that i literally own that exact cat person mug you're holding 😭😭

[@elskabee]

i really appreciate the important topics discussed in this video AND it is also possibly your funniest book review to date, i am WHEEZING every time that caterpillar appears on screen 🤣

[@Jealousofyou951]

I've never liked when a heroine refers to the hero/his people as 'beasts' or 'savages' - that's always felt racist.

[@belovedwinter]

I do read a lot of monster romance (though for the record, I don't consider orcs or other "regular" fantasy creatures as monsters, more just fantasy romance), and I will say that this is the first discussion of any racial implications or similarities to problematic tropes that I've ever seen. When I read monster romances, I tend to look for books that emphasize the strangeness, and 'otherness' of a monster, whether their mannerisms, their bodies, etc., because what I'm looking for is the literary experience of loving the monster, loving something/someone that is considered to be "unloveable", freakish, undesirable or ugly. I could just be reading very different novels from this one (I would not have picked this book up for a number of reasons), but this video has introduced me to something I'll keep in mind as I'm reading in the future.

[@rl.garcia]

I was not prepared for what the caterpillar was called.

[@flowersandcheesecake1710]

I love how the main character doesn’t change her belief know racism a thought process that no should have

[@Amandanders]

Waterboarding couldn't make me admit to having no thoughts in my head

[@lianajay04]

first thing i thought when you mentioned his name was a jackal (animal close to a wolf/fox) which kinda confused me a little because this guy doesn't seem to have any wolf-like features and even has horns

[@hughjasss420]

this is very random and from like 10 seconds of the video - but yes you can use spider as a verb! usually its "spidering" when used as a verb and not "spiders". its meant to describe moving kinda like a web i think? like how if a little pebble hits your windshield, the glass around it forms little cracks that look like a web. so in this specific instance (the book, i mean) it would be that the spark she's feeling is spreading through her body. spidering is kind of an odd term for this instance (in my head i view it more like the spark appearing as spidery web-like veins appearing all down her body or something) but it is a valid verb!

[@whydoesyoutubehavehandles]

this topic is extremely interesting to me, partially because my favorite version of orcs are the ones in the skyrim (elder scrolls) franchise, where the orc culture follows more inspiration from mongolian stereotypes more than anything, and they actually are a people that gets respected in canonical writing and have customs and traditions that make sense other than “blargh blargh colonizing warmongers”. (they do get discriminated of course based off appearance and hearsay, but the elder scrolls is kind of known for having an ouroboros racism system between all cultures in that world so shrug i guess) i honestly didn’t even realize these orc/monster romance books exist, but hearing this is so shocking because i personally can’t imagine engaging with media that portrays orcs or any other monster race as a ‘simpleminded’ warmonger brutish race, because that is frankly a really dumb writing decision for an adversary nation, and is one of few critiques i have of lord of the rings. (tends to also make or break what fantasy shows i watch, because it’s a really good pointer to how little a writer actually cares about worldbuilding, which i care a lot about!) sorry if this doesn’t make sense, good video! 👍👍👍

[@rae3781]

Tbh you can sum up most of the Elder Scrolls races with racism 😭 90% of the races in TES are racist 😭😭😭

[@whydoesyoutubehavehandles]

@@rae3781 i think argonians are like the least racist but they are also still racist 😭

[@Hacker-PTW]

​@@whydoesyoutubehavehandles I don't know. They're really isolationist and they also don't like dark elves very much (granted, totally understandable why, what with the whole slavery thing). Personally, I think the Khajit are pretty chill. Can't remember any big race wars they started at least, so better than the humans and elves. Edit: Wait, aren't the Khajit technically part of the Aldmeri Dominion?

[@bluseadragon]

​​@@Hacker-PTWmy knowledge of TES lore is fuzzy st best these days but iirc Elsweyr and Valenwood were annexed by the Summerset Isles at one point. Or maybe one was annexed and one volubtarily joined or something. Like i said, my knowledge is fuzzy. Edit: I also seem to remember that one race believes Khajiit descend from the High Elves. So its entirely possible that thet voluntarily joined the Aldmeri Dominion, or at the very least, they saw Altmer as their closest ally. Sorry for typos. My tablet uses a non-English keyboard and won't autocorrect.

[@rae3781]

​@Hacker-pt3wm Yeah they were kinda, but the Aldmeri Dominion wasn't like it is in Skyrim at the beginning. The Thalmor really was like "Okay but what if we were like SUPER racist"

[@HarbinGarble]

Reading got so much more fun for me when I started to read more critically

[@KakiOlsenCreative]

0:14 there’s nothing on screen when you point to “this.” Thanks for not reading it. 😂

[@ReadswithRachel]

it's at 00:48

[@MlleReglisse]

I am asexual, and i would love to read a monster romance, without sex. I want to see an ace woman dating a cute vampire man, with a giant silent movies collection. And they watch "Nosferatu" together. ❤

[@lowlyworm9323]

Write the ace vampire romance you want to see in the world!

[@net_has]

I mean, it doesn't just sound like "Barbarian," it also sounds like "Berber," which is just an actual ethnic group

[@NeichaUnagi]

As an artist from Switzerland, the "Are artists neutral??? ARE ARTIST SWTIZERLAND?" bit had me creasing

[@Daraa100]

“How did u learn our customs” is giving “How is ur English so good vibes”

[@Merdragoon]

I think the better way for people to handle things, instead of saying "turn off your brain", It should be "Let's put it in a different perspective". Because you can't really 'turn off' your brain as you read. The subconcious is going to catch the things anyways. As a Monster Romance reader, I started to enjoy it because I was seeing it more of the perspective of "I'm seen as a monster for being Ace and Agender. And even I can be loved." type of thing. I do however do see how the perspective of the Race comes into play in this conversation as well. I can't "turn off my brain" and not see either of those perspectives. I can maybe see one or the other at a given time, but not none of them. (I've also noticed the world building in monster romances in my experience have been better than Romanctsy... I'm sorry for this spicy take.) But I also enjoy the mermaid romances which apparently is under "Monster Romances" as well, so it's easier for me to project myself as the "othered". I thought of this turn of phrase when thinking back on when you were reading the one that you weren't enjoying until you realized "Oh, It's based on spanish soap opera!" And then you enjoyed it more. You didn't stop reading it critcally, you just changed your perspective of the intent and you had a better experience. So I don't like the whole "Turn of your brain" comments. Turning off your brain also means you "should not be angry at these tropes being repeated". People have time and again not liked certian tropes. Even the sillier, less problematic ones (How many times have we heard people not liking the "insta-love" trope even if they were reading it "mindlessly"? A lot in my experience.). (I wanted to put in my thoughts as I'm trying to finish A Soul to Keep before the end of December along with the Crane Husband which is not a monster romance... and this timing of this video had been too on the nose lol.) Note: Omg, the beginning of this books is just already telling me it's poorly written in general. I don't think I would enoy this one at all.

[@corvi_dae]

Anyone think orc romance and their mind just goes “tusk love”

[@antheathetiefling8581]

Or legends and lattes

[@JadeReloaded]

Always... thinking of Oskar.

[@antheathetiefling8581]

@corvi_dae "oh Oskar" "it's Fjord" "thank you Oskar!"

[@mariaepsilon]

that's where my mind went xD (and legend and lattes too)

[@a.j.torres3131]

I wrote a monster romance short story where the lady is inspired by both the Amphibian Man from The Shape of Water and Abe from Hell Boy who meets a Latine inspired guy who is such a cinnamon roll because I like cinnamon rolls. I wanted to write a monster lady who was as brawny as Karlach from BG3 while mixing in some Taíno inspired magic and Puerto Rican inspired characters, and I’m so so so SO glad I’m not doing any of this . . . rooooomance? Yeah, sure, let’s go with that. Anyway, hope you feel better and I seriously hope you’re able to read more books you love ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍

[@DarwinRoger893]

Karlach is awesome!

[@a.j.torres3131]

@DarwinRoger893 She really is 😁🙌🏼

[@rightsarentpolitical]

I blame you, Rachel, for the absolute goddamn CACKLE that erupted around 45:00 for the caterpillar footage while you were reading. All while my poor kiddo was in a nearby room trying to go to sleep. Absolutely hilarious. 10/10 no notes.

[@Cakelynn6]

“he smooches the bean” I am dying 🤣 I hope you are feeling better!!

[@bluemena8399]

13:48 no but this is true. Like I have started watching castlevania nocturne this past weekend and I only really started enjoying it by actively engaging and analysing the narrative. Engaging with the things that you read or watch is fun

[@likepocketsjingling]

I loved what I saw of Castlevania. Sure, there are vampires and demons, but the most 'monstrous' behavior I saw was from humans and had historical precedents.

[@lacata2570]

This video is making me rethink my experience reading ice planet barbarians...

[@Batz-on-paws]

Noooo why would you remind us of that existing-

[@immortan-valkyrie90]

🫣 and I really enjoy that series

[@daddytchaik]

as a big IPB fan (though more of the extended universe than the original series), it’s def something I’ve struggled with. honestly IPB handles the subject better than most in the genre, but when the bar is so low, that’s not saying much 😅

[@missmishka8379]

44:48 I think this is my thing with these monster romances. I don't see racial coding in the monster characters, I see beastial traits like the fantasy is spurred by a different species, not a race. Like centuar romance is straight up wanting to inappropriately ride 🐎🐓 but they can't publish that for money or mass production so they put a man on top & claim it's fantasy based on myths. I recently read a lion shifter romance where more happened in his shifted state than I was comfortable reading. Either way, there's no denying that some of these fantasies are pulling from wrong places. Even if an animal is the desired focus, they attribute manly characteristics to it & those characteristics often align with racial stereotypes of certain races being like certain animals so it's really all kinds of problematic that I had only seen or commented on a few times myself. Like there have been some monster stories where it is obvious & uncomfortable that the big monster is black & the little femme one is Asian & that big nosed troll is Jewish & what was done to those characters is not cool. So I definitely need to be more aware of the broader implications of that in my reading & reviewing.

[@Reverse_Cowgirl-cat]

I suppose you could argue that the characteristics we attribute to different animals are just us anthropomorphising them. Therefore, we subconsciously put our world views on them, and that can inherently come with deeply ingrained stereotypes.

[@LisatheWeirdo]

Literally watched a Storied video that talked about how the Romans used monsters like centaurs and satyrs as a way to dehumanize their enemies!

[@araneljones]

Getting screamed at by Mickey Mouse about airships was the thing I didn't know I needed.

[@christophermerrill8925]

Id say a lot of monster romance authors fall into this trap whether they willingly went into it like that or not. Often times the monster love interest is painted as either different from the rest of his species or is redeemed through his white woman love interest. One of the authors that comes to mind for me is SE Wendel as almost all of her love interests come off as the different from the rest of his species trope. I think a lot of these authors need to start thinking about what they’re writing into these characters or get more sensitivity readers especially BIPOC ones.

[@palamedes4740]

I think that's a very good topic! That monster seems to be a satyr from greek mythology and they were the worst when it comes to SA (not as bas as Zeus tho) . I think the classic Tolkien orc would make more of a point and be less easy to deflect.

[@mindfighter1]

As a florist, I doubt daisies blooming in the morning have a distinct smell

[@robinronin]

I was so confused about how racism was related to monster romance, because I’ve only ever read gay monster romance where the monsters are actually very soft and sweet. The heteros are certainly... doing things a little differently, wtf 😂

[@angelawossname]

Same. I love gay monster romance. Who is your favourite?

[@perryrhinitis]

Why are ppl talking about how it's different if it's gay romance when the issue is about racism? The monsters in het romance can also be soft and sweet lol depending on the writer; that doesn't negate the issue at hand

[@baka9466]

Just give me Lily Mayne's sweet cinnamon roll gay monsters who do no wrong.

[@machinegods]

The LGBT community famously has severe racism issues that are frequently going ignored. Even if we don't think the things we like or create have racist undertones, it's always important to examine them. I've read some gay romance that turned out to be extremely vile orientalist garbage. We are not immune, and we owe it to our community to always keep our eyes open, as well as our ears and hearts to our friends of color when they talk about the exclusion and violence they face within it.

[@kaijuhunting]

this is not a het issue and i think detracting from the conversation and just going "lol straight people!" helps nothing. gay people can be racist. i don't doubt there are gay monster romances that do the same things

[@amylemcoauthor]

I still feel like this monster is very monstery so it also feels almost ableist that he's a dude whose legs are a little bit different

[@vahilus]

Re: the name the author who shall not be named gave her orc character; it struck me as being "vaguely Mediterranean", i.e. Orientalist. I read the sounds as overall reminiscent of the language group used in the SWANASA regions, and I thought it was soooo predictable that a white romantasy author would happily decide to base their "barbarian" race on SWANASA cultures. I didn't even pick up on the close paralleling to a slur for black folks. Either way, it stinks of at best uncritical uninformed indulgence in shitty racist fantasy tropes, and at worst of straight up racism dolled up in "but they're one of the good ones/it's a nuanced perspective!" Bs. Thanks for the video Rachel! You're informative and entertaining as always, even when slogging through the mire of booktok controversy and slop.

[@cakt1991]

I didn’t know much about the monster romance subgenre at first, but I’m glad my intro was through stories by BIPOC and/or queer authors. One of my favorite gateway stories was Mirror Monster On My Wall by Tam Nicnevin, a polyamorous Regency monster romance short by a Black queer author that reimagines a mix of fairy tales, like Snow White and Alice in Wonderland. While the love interests are physically monstrous, the point it drives home is that they are the ones who support and love the protagonist, Alice, as well as protecting her from her human tormentors.

[@tmd_95]

That sounds so good! Thanks for mentioning it, I would totally be down to read that

[@Bridget108p]

The word barbarian comes from the word the ancient Romans used to describe people who weren't part of the Roman empire, barbar. So i feel like she did that on purpose to signify further that this character is an other.

[@ThePeachGirlDiaries]

As someone that is writing a monster romance, this video is so helpful. Thank you, Rachel. I love your content.

[@ralunix4612]

Humanoid monsters are for the weak. Embrace the real monsters, embrace the tentacles, embrace the furr, and embrace the real monstrous creatures. Not just size difference and aggression. Boo.

[@serendouss9575]

I keep hearing 'berbil' for some reason. As in the robo-bears from Thundercats. No idea why but now I'm picturing someone writing some dark corn about robo-bears

[@stormieblogger5287]

The damage 365 days has done is astronomical 😢

[@colleen6644]

This is copypasta of a lot of other stories. Most recent to me, there's a new webtoon that is basically this. The savage dude, kills a buttload of people to meet and convince the lady to marry him. She's a pale, busty broad who acquiesces to anything he wants and can't help but be attracted to him despite his savagery (for her people, of course). Minus the literal "monster" physicality.

[@weirdandproudofit1]

Burbarre sounds so much like barbar, the romanian word for 'savage'. I don't think it was intentional but I've also had my language coopted enough where it itched my brain wrong

[@whydoesyoutubehavehandles]

probably not coincidentally that the name is written as it is, because “barbarian” i’m guessing was copied from your word! would not surprise me if the writer subconsciously chose it due to this (fun fact, in sweden we also use ‘barbar’ to describe a savage individual! we borrow a lot of words :P )

[@daddytchaik]

to me it immediately sounded more like “Berber” than anything else, which refers to different north african ethnic groups, but I think it’s believed that the etymology is related to “barbar”/“barbarian”. kind of wild that this random monster romance that Rachel picked just has this term in it 😅

[@dumbbluejay9525]

genuinely the first thing i thought was "so barbarians? like a really simple way to name the 'barbarian' group?"

[@melowlw8638]

the word is also similar in other romance languages, so being french, i made that connection too

[@KRayEpiale]

Losing my mind of the caterpillar section. Fun anecdote, in 5th grade I sustained one of the worst injuries I've ever had panicking because one of these things got on my clothes. I'm still scared of them, but I feel like remembering your outrage here might help in the future lmfao.

[@equinoxcrow]

Yeah.. I stopped reading monster romance after reading and dnfing one where the devil is taking traumatized women and setting them up with monster men to produce half monster babies. Yeah fuck no..

[@Grace-qw1js]

It’s interesting to see how these conversations continue to pop up. The radicalized aspect of monsters has been discussed in the DnD community for decades.

[@edeedeeward]

The racism in these books also tends to overlap with harmful misinformation about antisocial personality traits and what cultures deem socially acceptable. Especially through the theme of nature vs nurture (is he like this because he's a monster, or because he grew up in a monster culture?) and "I can fix him" protagonists. It's all just a fucked up way to say, *is he tamable?* And they pass it off as acceptable in-universe because nonono, see, he's not actually human-he's a beast.

[@jo_helaci]

"Are artists Switzerland?" 🤣🤣🤣 This had me laughing so much.