Orchestration Tip: Tenor Tuba from Mars!

[@chriscombest]

As a tuba player I really appreciate the explanation you give in this video. My only suggestion is don't limit the range too much, unlike many instruments that have already been well established the tuba and tenor tuba/euphonium are still very much in their infancy in terms of what they're able to do musically and technically. Push the envelope and players will embrace it.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Cheers, Chris, always good to hear from a tubist. As I mentioned in the vid, the ranges are textbook, and of course euphs can go higher than the Mars solo. On the other hand, I sometimes err on the side of caution when presenting material I know will be studied by orchestrators at all levels. But good advice all the same.

[@vanillaguppy]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6mpmXekabB6opY

[@joeuphonium]

thank you so much for pointing out the differences between a euphonium, tenor tuba, baritone, etc. as a euphonium player myself, that's always an ongoing battle in my life. i've gotten to play The Planets with an orchestra before, the euphonium solo in Uranus is another gem!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks so much for your kind words and for your perspective as a player.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Emily. Two reasons this is not a Wagner tuba. 1.) The wide, fat mouthpiece. 2.) Wagner tubas are fingered with the left hand, not the right, as they are hybrids from horns and played by horn players. If you look at the history of the baritone horn, you see a descent through bugle-type conical bores that have a cylindrical start. This pattern was developed through several instrument makers, including Adolph Sax. So basic shapes may imitate each other, but what matters is the mathematics.

[@mr.starfish4965]

As a euphonium player, I knew that a baritone wasn’t a tenor tuba, but I thought that euphonium and tenor tuba were synonymous. I guess I thought that because euphoniums have the same construction style as tubas with pistons facing upward (like the tubas used in brass bands). Thanks for clarifying the difference.

[@seth094978]

Sometimes there isn't a difference. It is highly likely that when Holst wrote "tenor tuba" he actually did mean a euphonium. Terms in the brass world are often less well-defined them people like to say they are, and hugely influenced by the marketing of various companies over the years.

[@jfbmusic]

Thomas, what a fantastic installment, one of your best. I learned a lot, not only about horns but also about Mr. Holst as a human being. Thanks for sharing with the world. Worth watching multiple times.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

No worries - I appreciate the opportunity for clarification, or correction if I got it wrong.

[@SharmaYelverton]

Fantastic stuff! Hope you find the time to do more of these at some point.

[@JimCullen]

I think this may be the best weekly orchestration tip yet! But perhaps that's just my bias because of how much I love this movement.

[@djrbfmbfm-woa]

excellent thomas, as usual. best. j.

[@dupre55]

Thank you!

[@eklepse]

Just to say Merry Chinese Spring Festival, Thomas! Your orchestration tutorials really changes my life... Thank you!!! :)

[@ScoringStageEu]

Great, again! Good tutoring

[@maxcohen13]

How do you feel about the ending of this interpretation of Mars? Every score I've seen of this section has "Rall.al Fine." at the XII mark, meaning to go *progressively* slower. Yet, most orchestras play it with an immediate slower tempo from that mark. The only time I've heard it performed properly is with the recording by Berlin Philharmonic under Karajan.

[@twinklingjiwon]

I'm so grateful for uploading this video. It's very helpful for me to study orchestration :-)

[@Spaunsam77]

Awesome video! Thank you so much!

[@maxcohen13]

The dead room does hurt the overall effect, I think. But you're right, the sound will travel more as the environment allows. As an organist, I know all to well the pitfalls of "playing the room" as it's often described. Thanks for pointing out that recording. The rall. al Fine. sounded accurate. At least according to what he wrote down. This does, however, bring up the interesting topic of when interpretation overlaps definition in compositional instruction.

[@carlpowell0]

this was great info cheers

[@aminesoufari]

Great!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

If your tuba part allows for one player changing between standard tuba and euphonium, then don't worry about that at all. Just mark "change to euphonium." Most tuba players will either have a euphonium or be able to get ahold of one with no problem. That is actually ideal - the orchestra won't have to hire an extra player.

[@sirgermaine]

As a tuba player with a fair degree of study, I would like to point out a few things that I think could be more accurate here. It might be worth noting who would actually play which type of tuba as you describe them. A tubist would normally be competent in and own at least one bass tuba and one contrabass tuba, with CC and F being the most common here in the US. Tenor tuba parts here are pretty much always played by a euphonium player, and Wagner tubas are played by hornists.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Very briefly - it comes from a tradition in which composers wrote several pieces in the same genre of work. For instance, in my case, I fully intend to write a second bass concerto, in another key probably. So one might refer to them by key: "Oh, I heard the e minor, but not the new D major concerto!" Of course, things would get complicated as the works started to pile up, and a composer might end up with dozens of concerti in the same key. Hence the opus number: "Concerto in D, Op. 1, No. 3."

[@BluemountScore]

Gosh I love Mars

[@timothytikker3834]

Check out the detailed, carefully-researched program notes for the New Queen's Hall Orchestra's CD recording of The Planets. These explain that Holst's inspiration for the suite was a specific book about astrology, and that each movement was meant to characterize the archetypal energy of each planet. In the case of Mars, this was essentially just about primal chaos; it was not meant to be a commentary in the impending war.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

And listen to the words of my script more carefully. The point of this video is not about the composition of Mars (which occurred before the war broke out), but about the orchestration, which happened once the fighting was well underway. The character of the sound picture was surely influenced by the scale of events. And the dull, urgent simplemindedness of the tenor tuba's call to action is quite reminiscent of what we see from back then. As to reading sources - as an erstwhile presenter for Radio New Zealand's Concert-FM, I have my hands on a vast amount of recordings and historical materials. I do have a presentation that you may listen to over on their website if you like.

[@SharpWalkers]

I haven't listened to The Planets, aside from Jupiter and Venus, in long time & I always thought that Tuba solo was a Horn. So I learned a couple things again! Great that next week is going to be on Sul Tasto! I've been delving into that a bit more lately. And I get Sul Punticello, because it's so recognisable. But Sul Tasto seems more vague (in what it is, it's sound & how to use it) for some reason. So I'll be paying attention!

[@brasschick4214]

Thanks for your video. I play Euphonium and the range you suggest is practical. I also wonder whether Holst added in the Tenor tuba/Euphonium as a euphemism 😉 for the working class being brought in? The Euphonium is key in brass bands which was seen as a working man's musical outlet.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Very good point - though it would have been doubly ironic in symbolism in that case. Holst tended to take the common man's side in a lot of viewpoints - not as a social reformer, but as a realist. Thanks for your great insight!

[@NeilABliss]

I'm glad that someone else pointed out that the range given is only a practical range. As with all Brass the upper limits of range is only limited by the strength of the player. I'm sure Thomas knows better given his frequent mention of getting to know the players, but I don't know how many times I have sat in a reading session for young arrangers, orchestrators and composers where the "book" definition is the extent of their knowledge.

[@MrInterestingthings]

tubas and brass chorale. im having a time just getting the different sounds . will i ever be able to write for more than trumpet and french horn ? the horror oh the horror.Yet i love this strong brassy shiny metal sound!

[@tesmith47]

the commentary on Mars was heart rending, thinking about all those european youth fighting for their country................then i heard you mention the date and i remembered that europeans hjad been doing this to innocent , non threatening people in Africa for 300 years

[@beakf1]

Oh and while i remember i just bought a Roland Fantom G6 and because it was a store demo model i notice it had the ARX Brass card installed worth £400 each still installed to show its potential lucky me.Anyway this card boast supernatural real sounds and amazing flexibly.I dont have real Brass to compare it to and nothing beats the real thing,but if your ever getting a new piano/synth this is worth a look.They have drum and piano ARX expansion cards too all with smart tec playing.

[@composerdoh]

I always found the connection from Mahler's 2nd, to Holst, to Star Wars intriguing. Most people notice how Star Wars takes directly from Holst, but don't notice a more subtle "borrowing"... or perhaps it was concurrent or coincidentally similar ideas or something???- but it's strikingly similar- with these crashing chords in Mahler's 2nd... well, to be honest, I'm not 100% sure it was the 2nd, but I think it is somewhere towards the end of the 2nd movement in his 2nd symphony.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

You have to ask yourself whether such a marking is a commandment or a guideline. Most conductors are interpreting it one way, not exactly as written. There may be any number of reasons why - I suspect that the main one is cohesion of brass articulation, which may fall apart somewhat in extended ritard, especially with highly separated baton strokes. Also see the opening of Jupiter - on the first tutti chord, all orchestras play a ffp< even though none is indicated. But that's better IMHO.

[@simondrew2914]

This point about commandments versus guidelines would be an excellent subject for another video, as it goes to the heart of what constitutes music making. Tempi can of course be specifically written as metronome markings, but anything that steps outside these strictures, such as dynamics, rubato, (ri)tenuto, or fermata introduce an element of interpretation which is open to debate. Another question, of course, is: to what extent are conductors and musicians duty bound to be faithful to the composor's wishes? Is it legitimate to play older music on modern instruments that may have different timbres than their ancestors?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

It all depends on the context of the doubling. Tenor tuba can actually be doubled by just about anything in that range, including Wagner tuba and baritone horn - but should it? That's the question for the conductor who has limited options. Horns can go quite low, but their tessitura is quite different from the euphonium or the tenor tuba. I would say, though, because of the profusion of euphoniums on the planet, that finding a good substitute will seldom be a problem.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Rather than "more accurate" - I would say "more specific." I do refer to the Wagner tubas as being "huge hybrid horns," and I have addressed them in other tutorials, and composed several pieces for combinations of W.t.'s. And indeed, I do say "Nowadays, the euphonium is used most commonly when the score asks for tenor tuba." And there's a missing footnote at the start: "tuba players will commonly play both a CC and an F over the course of one performance." Does that about cover it?

[@Darkserpentes]

But say I would only need the tenor tuba/euphonium in certain parts, could I ask certain brass players(I would guess the tubist) to switch instruments? Isn't it right that tenor tuba/euphonium resembles the tuba in playing style? Or would it be recommended to always use a specialized euphonist?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Good point - but from what I understand, the two-piano score was composed as the war was being declared, and the orchestration was completed during the war. Holst denied that "Mars" was a direct reflection of the exact events of the war - but I don't think there's any question that the utter devastation was a comment on the mood of the day, and the growing horror towards what was initially thought of as a noble fight. It's the orchestration that's being analyzed here, not strictly the notes.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

In this case, we do have the composer's original recordings - you could dig them up and compare, I suppose.

[@beakf1]

What the most common Major chord substitute for the ii dim in minor keys in classical and other Genres like pop?.Say the key is A minor which is more common B flat or B major as the Major chord substitute(in root position).

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Of course - my ranges here are textbook rather than extended, out of consideration for you and other beleaguered tubists, who might otherwise be asked to play Flight of the Bumblebees an octave higher. I think you have to appreciate that this video is about a specific moment in tuba repertoire, and that other minutiae are given within standard parameters, as this is not a tuba tutorial per se.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Cameron! Glad to hear that you've found these videos useful. I am currently creating an audiovisual orchestration training series, please go to my channel page and watch my latest video. I'll be announcing the first course on string instruments soon.

[@TheCoastermann]

this isnt related to the video, but why do composers name there works after the key it was written in. eg; Borodin, Symphony in B minor Mahler, Symphony in C# minor Double bass concerto in E minor

[@steveeliscu1254]

I always heard that Holst wrote The Planets BEFORE WWI. Also curious as to which movie scores used Wagner Tubas.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

He wrote the two-piano score to Mars before WWI broke out. However, he orchestrated the movement during the war.

[@sirgermaine]

As an additional note on ranges, most tubists are capable of playing lower than you list, well below the pedal (though this range is essentially never used in literature). The upper range should be the same for all tuba types, since it is not really any more difficult to play the F above the staff on a CC tuba than an F tuba. The upper range limits you've presented also dismiss the tuba's ability to play even higher, such as the tuba solo in Bydlo, which has G# above the staff.

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

I noticed the piano there. We live in total new era when you see that a very good simple set up with piano and sibelius is "old fashioned"; i was like this till 2017 , then i changed adding more software and other things. Because of the pandemic i sold my piano, the only e-piano now ;/

[@cameronbrown2530]

Hi i just wanna say thank you for you videos there great help, do you know of any computer software helps teach you orchestration, with real life samples and techniques? From England (::

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Do a KZbin search on "GUSTAV HOLST conducts THE PLANETS (First Recordings - 1922-23)." After listening to the ending of "Mars," I feel that the modern tempo interpretation is better. The tempos in general on this recording feel a bit too fast - but that may be the result of recording in a dead room, which was the custom back then. In a more expansive chamber, tempos often slow down - and perhaps that is the cause of the general convention now of playing the Mars coda meno mosso.

[@noahgodard3338]

4:27 Now wait a moment ... that's a euphonium, isn't it?

[@JakeGuilbo]

Some of the range comments have been deleted but it is odd remarking Concert Bb as the highest note for Tenor Tuba when Holst himself wrote up to Concert B Natural and C in The Planets. Regardless, great video!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Jacob! I didn't delete any comments. When KZbin accounts close, their comments disappear. Also, people often take down their own comments. In this case, I added an annotation that the ranges shown were textbook, not complete. But now KZbin has done away with notations. :D Thanks for the ups!

[@arugula_fan]

Is the music at 8:25 (Tip for Feb 8 2013) from Prokofiev 5?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

No, that's all Mars from Holst's Planets.

[@Darkserpentes]

Can the tenor tuba you're talking about be played by hornists as well as tubists? I've seen some scores instructing hornists to be doubling tenor tuba. Is this some confusion with the Wagner tuba, since they transpose the same way?

[@viola4344]

"Tenor Tuba" is a term that historically could mean the euphonium-like instrument or a tenor Wagner tuba in Bb. Only Wagner tubas were doubled by horn players, but other than that, you just have to know what it means for each work.

[@maxalaintwo3578]

It always baffles me how the British brass band was evolved out the working class and stuff. Were brass instrument cheap at the time? Cuz as a euph player I know for sure that they aren't cheap now haha.

[@tenor1190]

Cheaper than good string or woodwinds, less fragile, don't require reeds or rosin, and easier to learn

[@emilygclarinet]

That instrument that the guy's playing at 2:01 - is that not a Wagner tuba though?

[@Apfelstrudl]

No it is a Tenorhorn with a mouthpiece similar to trombones. It is a bohemian model of a euphonium but has a more compact sound and is played in Germany/ austria/ czech Republic mostly in wind anf military bands.. Mahler was using much military/ March music that he heard as a child in his symphonies.

[@djrbfmbfm-woa]

no wonder Zimmer got into trouble with the Gladiator score. lol. j.

[@ShawnSlapsDaBass]

Eb and F tuba easier to play? As a tuba player, the bass tubas are not as easy as the contrabass tubas.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Well you are one awesome guy then, Shawn! :) The tuba players I work with mostly use F's and Eb's, and tell me that it's harder to maintain a very long note on a CC or BBb. But they use them as well, depending on the player and the piece. You're the expert, but from what I've seen, upper bass staff work is quite a bit harder on the bigger artillery, easier on the smaller tubas. Of course getting a clearer tone on lower notes is much easier on the contras, hence their manufacture.

[@AndrewMerideth]

I ask this purely out of curiosity. "True Tenor Tuba, like the kind you hear in Strauss." Do you mind clarifying this? I've recently done research on the Wagner Tuben to discover that all Strauss parts that say "Tenortuba" are Tuben parts, like in the Alpine Symphony or Elektra. The solo parts in Don Quixote and Ein Heldenleben were also originally a Wagner Tuben parts, but Strauss later changed his mind thinking a tenorhorn would be better. Is it these solo parts you are referring to?

[@Apfelstrudl]

Tenor Tuben and Bass Tuben are alternative names for Wagner Tuben in Bb and in F.. He calls the normal tuba Kontrabass Tuba there. Strauss never wrote for Tenorhorn (tenor tuba) which is played by trombonists as far as I know.. Only Wagner Tuben!

[@maxcohen13]

I suppose that's the draw-back (or luxury) of not having the composer around. I guess I've always felt that it's like someone slammed on the brakes in this section; strikes me as such an interruption.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Well - I try to keep things polite here. I encourage respectful disagreement - there's no need to be pejorative. Ideas flow and the truth comes to the surface the best for me when we all show each other some patience. It's not a question of offense, it's a question of tone. As to your correction, thanks - I do appreciate your perspective. The tenor tuba is an instrument so little understood on its own terms that even orchestration texts are bound to be cautious, and sometime in error.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Gently, gently. There's no need to shout "poppycock." My reference is to the conservative textbook range of the tenor tuba, not the euphonium. And of course capable players may go higher - I've heard overtones ripped above the treble staff by bass tuba players. But I'm not going to make life difficult for serious orchestral players by recommending extended techniques without qualification. With all respect, tubaman...

[@kioselnelio4598]

Poppycock hahaah