Orchestration Tip: Tuba/Trombone Relationships

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[@JakeGuilbo]

Thank you for at least mentioning the tenor tuba - too often our orchestral contributions are overlooked or ignored

[@OrchestrationOnline]

My pleasure! The tenor tuba/euphonium is a wonderful instrument. I've scored it as the bass for the horns in my harp concerto. Also, I've released a video on Holst's use of tenor tuba in Mars.

[@mal2ksc]

On the other hand, brass bands show you lots of love. The euphonium parts are usually awesome to play.

[@rogercawkwell5413]

Good listening! It reminds me of a time I sat in with a light music orchestra with very little time to rehearse to play tuba but there were only a few pieces that had tuba parts included. I snaffled a spare double bass part & kept my eye on the trombones, joining in only when they played. It worked quite well!

[@toronado455]

Orchestration on the fly!

[@elleboman8465]

Smart move! I performed Beethovens 5th last year as second bassoonist, and our section leader (the only one of us with contrabassoon experience) played the contra part in the last movement. In order to have something to do during the other movements, he wrote up a part for regular bassoon which basically doubled the basses an octave up during forte passages. It made for a really warm and fuzzy tutti timbre! (I did nag him to actually double the basses on the contrabassoon throughout, but he wanted to save that extra bit of oumph for the finale. Which seems reasonable, but still, why be reasonable when you can bring more contrabassoon into this world?!)

[@ashleythorpe7933]

Struass' Ein Heldenleben features many tenor/bass tuba octaves. He treats the tenor tuba like a 4th trombone, but with a rounder, darker sound.

[@soundtreks]

Thanks Thomas! As a trombone player I enjoy writing for low brass (just finished a quintet commission actually). I’m totally going to use the euphonium in my next orchestral work. I like the sound of it. :)

[@jrlepage2a03]

13:09 that's the wrong Jupiter excerpt! The one that plays is from the end of the piece, where the theme is played in C major, whereas the score excerpt displayed is from the middle section where it is in G.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks for catching that! We'll add the correction to future editions.

[@christopherpaul1810]

This helps me a great deal. I'm trying to branch out from basic brass to more include a fuller section and am only beginning to experiment with trombones in my arrangements. Knowing how to connect them with tuba is a fun way to also include bass trombone as my orchestral template continues to expand.

[@patrickbrucemcardle]

I never clicked subscribe faster in my life. Thank you good sir!

[@michaelshort7472]

Good video overall and reflects my experience as both an orchestral tubist and orchestral bass trombonist. One nit-pick: at about 11:48, you show the trombone and tuba/ophicleide parts. In the fifth measure on beat one you have an A natural. In the full score right after, it is A flat. The A flat is the correct note. Thanks!

[@jammusique]

Great info, and a very instructive production!!

[@TubaTones]

Hi Thomas, great video, have been a professional tubist for 20 years and I learnt some things today! A few things you could maybe add for future material is the use of two tubas by Strauss, Berlioz, Shostakovich. Some noted examples are Alpine Symphony, Also Sprach, Symphony Fantastique, etc. Also, the difference in timbre a low brass section has when a cimbasso is replacing the tuba, Verdi, Puccini etc. Most orchestra, especially opera orchestra's have a cimbasso in their instrument lockers. One last thing I would add, in my experience, all the professional bass trombonists I know can go much lower than the G below the bass clef. I realise that range it's not often used in orchestral works, at least in classical music, but if aspiring composers are thinking of writing some more Bass Trombone soli, it can be something to appreciate!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Antonio! I appreciate your perspective as a player! Of course, bass trombone players can go lower than a low G, but I was talking about a general lower limit that would have the same reliable solidity as a tuba in octave playing with tenor tubas. Even at that, it's possible to go lower, but I'd want my students to have more practical experience scoring bass trombone before they took any kind of technique, articulation, and nuance for granted at the very bottom of the range.

[@LasseKarhu]

Once again, another wonderful lesson. Thank you for sharing.

[@accipiterignitus5123]

Thanks Thomas! Your orchestration tips are very helpful!

[@jacobbass6437]

I’m loving your last couple videos on brass. They really help me get a better overview in how to write better for brass as it’s been a weaker part of my writing. In an admittedly selfish request, I’d love to see some more content on saxophone writing as well. The instrument is so versatile and often under estimated in its capabilities as a woodwind. I’d love to see you do a video on how the saxophone is one of the only instruments other than strings to create multi-instrument alchemy. Just in the same way that having an abundance of string players creates a larger homogeneous sound that is greater than the sum of its parts, saxophone ensembles have that same ability (check out saxophone orchestras that have played Holst’s Jupiter and note how similar the saxophones create a worldly sound like a full symphony orchestra). Though large ensembles of most instruments can be very effective if written well, the saxophone and the strings stand alone in their regard to do so quite effortlessly. This multi-instrument alchemy is also why, in the words of my quite esteemed saxophone professor: the saxophone quartet is the only chamber group to rival the timbral complexity of a string quartet and is why they dominate national competitions. Much love for what you do, -Jacob

[@rachelblaquiere9134]

Wonderful video as usual. Would love to know more about bass trombones playing pianissimo in their low register (two octaves below middle C, for instance). I love that sound, however I've had mixed feedback from using it, ranging from wholly positive to "never again". I guess it depends on the player.

[@geirsolerd6479]

This was exactly answering my question I had in mind. Thank you!

[@jamessmith6333]

i loved playing jupiter as a euphonium player

[@miguelalvarezmartinez3012]

Awesome videos! It's a great resource!

[@kovachito]

Great.!! Set aside the main subject, your videos are kind of históric musical journey. Thank you, Thomas. Grettings from Chile.

[@AlexSonicsMusic]

Thanks so much for these extremely helpful videos.

[@michaelquillen2679]

Good video. Not much of a composer, but I've done several arrangements for trombone choir. The bass trombone and tuba in unison are one of my favorite tools/sounds. I love the fullness of the tuba with the pronunciation of the bass trombone. Powerful. Thanks for the video.

[@disgustangy4901]

Your videos have been very helpful

[@ADarkandStormyNight]

Another outstanding video from one of the best musical channels on the internet!

[@toronado455]

PRO LEVEL

[@alwalw3692]

Thanks, you enlighted me.

[@GrotrianSeiler]

Very interesting material!

[@garygreen7552]

Great lesson. I know that this video is about trombones and tuba. However, as a tuba player, I have found that some composers have used the tuba as a base for the horns. The reason it works is that both the horn and the tuba bores are more conical while the trombone is more cylindrical. This bore shape affects the tone of the instrument. I also remember way back when that Roger Bobo, tubist with the L. A. Philharmonic at that time, had a contrabass trombone made which he used in some brass ensemble music. Again, the trombone bore allowed the tone to blend better with the trumpets and trombones.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks, Gary! I've covered the relationships of conical bore instruments in other tips and videos - and in my harp concerto, which has the option of either tenor tuba (euphonium) or bass tuba along with a quartet of horns comprising the entire brass section.

[@gastonduroc201]

Thank you for this...

[@petedenton9434]

Interesting video. As a tuba player, it's probably worth pointing out that there is no such thing as a standard orchestral Tuba. The instrument is one of the youngest members of the orchestra (the earliest tubas date from the 1830s) and developed in parallel in different countries. For example, a 'French' C tuba is half the length of an American CC Tuba, with instruments pitched in F, Eb or BBb also being common, depending on which country you're in! Bore sizes, bore profiles and bell sizes also vary greatly. Tuba also has one of the widest ranges of any brass instrument to play across the repertoire. I'm just home from playing in an orchestral concert where my lowest note was D# 5 leger lines below the bass stave and my highest note was F# above the 2nd leger line above the bass stave. That's near enough 3 1/2 octaves! There are some great orchestral excerpts of tuba parts on this channel if you want to see the variety: kzbin.info/door/4Wmv514kH1EQCaAyTVRjggfeatured

[@OrchestrationOnline]

The nonconformity of tuba model usage is indeed featured in Chapter 51 of 100 MORE Orchestration Tips, under the title of "Tuba Models - Why Worry?" Developing composers often get side-tracked over which variety of tuba might be used in performing their music. The answer, of course, is almost always "whichever tuba the player thinks will get the job done". I didn't touch on that information here, as it wasn't really relevant and the video was long enough already.

[@luoshengying]

outstanding!

[@jarrod8579]

In the "Night on the Bald Mountain" example, I thought the tuba above the bass trombone had a bit of a bassoon-like quality. Is that something one could expect with real instruments, and has any composer or orchestrator used that effect before?

[@ziv_tendoora]

About the excerpt of Tchaikovsky‘s 6th by the Orchestre national de France. The bass trombone part would have almost certainly been played by a tenor trombone player by that time.

[@tyelerhiggins300]

I'm pretty bad at recognizing pieces by looking at scores, but I definitely recognized Mars and Jupiter at 12:30.

[@cookie0329]

Something I wish you could have mentioned (though not orchestra) is the role that euphonium plays in other settings. For example in brass bands and many wind ensembles, euphonium is used as a brass solo instrument. I think it's a really great voice to fill that role and it's a shame how little its used in orchestra. Just something to think about, loved the video!

[@edbuller4435]

Great stuff. Off to see Scheherazade at tHe Festival Hall on Sunday

[@csarbaloa]

Thank you for this great video, the absorbing quality of the overtones is really interesting, do you have a video about it? I remember reading about the same effect between a trumpet and a violin section but never had this level of detailed explanation

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi César! You're very welcome. I recommend reading more chapters of 100 MORE orchestration tips, and also watching my Bartók Orchestration Lesson videos on the Game of Pairs from Concerto for Orchestra.

[@csarbaloa]

@@OrchestrationOnline thank you, I just watched it, it's really interesting and helpful.

[@caterscarrots3407]

It's interesting, these relations between tuba and trombones. I've always had the tuba take the "Bass of the Bass" role in my orchestral arrangements, similar to Double Bass for strings, while the higher trombones, trumpets, and horns get the interesting melodic parts, just because I know it will work and I don't want the bass register too muddied by melodic parts.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I've used bass trombone, euphonium, horn, and even tenor trombones as the bottom note of the brass. It just depend on what kind of colour or weight I need.

[@caterscarrots3407]

OrchestrationOnline Yeah, I can see that. I tend to use the horn for the lowest note of the brass only if I’m writing for an orchestra with a small brass section of horns and trumpets(As I’ve done in for example Mozart orchestrations) or even just horns alone. For a slightly larger orchestra with trombones, I tend to use the bass trombone for that role. And for my largest orchestras, I use the tuba for the lowest note of the brass and the bass trombone gets more melodic parts.

[@TomMAF4]

Great video! I just think it would be preferable to use some more modern audio examples that are in stereo and less distorted and muffled as it's just easier to hear what you are demonstrating IMO

[@OrchestrationOnline]

If you can find me some public domain examples of some of these works that have great audio, I'm all for it. The issue really is permission. Not every work on IMSLP has a good recent reference recording with a CCA license. To source all these works with permissions is more work than I can manage with the time I'm given.

[@TomMAF4]

@@OrchestrationOnline OK, that is obviously completely understandable! We as listeners can always find the example with a non-public domain source anyway : )

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

@@OrchestrationOnline i could create a specific mockup for some measures

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@emanuel_soundtrack That is an incredibly kind gesture. I really appreciate the offer, but I think that would defeat the overall purpose of demonstrating each passage with a recording of live performers. As Tom says, people can (and should) go reference passages in other recordings.

[@hom2fu]

his examples are popular music. should hear it on the radio.

[@LordNev4]

In the Dies Irie in Symphony Fantastique, Berlioz puts the melody in two tubas, backed by four bassoons in the lower octave. Would this be a similar sound to if trombones were backing the bottom octave?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

There would be some similarities, but the overall effect would be different due to the characteristics of the combined bassoons, which are pungent in a much more throaty way than trombone. Also keep in mind that Berlioz's original intention was that what we now call tuba parts should be played by a serpent and an ophicleide, which he later changed to two ophicleides. In either configuration, the sound would be even more different from the sound of tubas in octaves over trombones. Go hunt around on the internet and listen to different performances - there's at least one very fine performance using the original instrumentation and it's nothing like what we have today in terms of low brass.

[@johningham1880]

Scoring trombone below tuba sounds ideal for keeping ships away from rocks in foggy conditions

[@amj.composer]

Luv the trambone

[@QuikVidGuy]

what is being said at 6:00? a-two tenor trombones? or is it more "a 2 Tenor Trombones" because it's 2 trombones on the same staff? I'm very new to orchestration

[@OrchestrationOnline]

"a 2" is using English to say "a due" (pron. "AH DOO-ay") in Italian. It means "two instruments sharing the same voice on the same staff."

[@LordNev4]

In the case of four stacked trombones (3 tenor 1 bass), would interlocking work with the three tenors (like how Mahler interlocks harmony with 1-3, 2-4, etc.)?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I wouldn't bother with anything like that. Horn interlocking is based on relationships that are baked into their section and reflect an overall heritage of orchestration going back three centuries. Massive trombone harmonies are probably better off scored in simple vertical order, despite the occasional experiment by Mahler.

[@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516]

How would two bass trombones sound with two tubas, combined with two tenor trombones?

[@jeffreyanderson5503]

Bar #5 in your Corsair example should be Ab in both tuba and trombones.

[@chessematics]

Is it ok to write for the 3 trombones and tuba in choral form? Alto and tenor in one stave, alto stem up tenor down and same with bass and tuba. Is it ok?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That's perfectly fine - but be aware that tuba usually has its own staff in modern scores, and the alto part may well be played on a tenor instrument (though altos are making a comeback).

[@justspectator9963]

Make a video how to combine strings, woodwinds and brass together to make them sound good

[@kermitthemutantlevitatingf7836]

euphoniums should be used more in orchestra they have such a sweet and mellow sound

[@Qermaq]

I think the trouble is that we already have violas and cellos and horns, which are (or can be) similarly sonorous and lush. It's kinda like frosting a sugar cube at that point. But I do agree that the color is beautiful, and a bonus is that if you use it in a score, nearly every orchestra is able to get a decent player to sit in to play. (Whether they want to pay for the euphonium player is another thing, but there's little chance of getting scores rejected on account of not having a player available, like if you write for sitar or crumhorn or something.)

[@emilemerten6535]

Hi what is the scoring program you used to check the sound of your music? its similar to Musescore.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Emile! As I mention on the screen, it's a plug-in called NotePerformer. At this point, I don't know if it's compatible with Musescore, but it does work with Sibelius, Dorico, and Finale.

[@emilemerten6535]

@@OrchestrationOnline Thank you very much!

[@NeilABliss]

I am curious if you can think of an example where Tuba roots the Horn section, while contrabass trombone roots the trombone section?

[@NeilABliss]

Tuba+Bass Bone = Body + Bite , In band scoring Euphonium (Tenor tuba) is kinda seen as the cello of the group.

[@paulroutledge4923]

There's examples in concert bands which the euphonium is basically the extension of the horn section or adds depth to the horn sound. The opening of Shenandoah Frank Ticheli is one example which only euphonium player is used to add depth to the low range of the horn.

[@NeilABliss]

@@paulroutledge4923 Agreed. Orchestrally the tuba often fills that role, especially if it's Tuben parts in the horns. Contrabass Bone of course sounds more bonelike than a tuba does.... so I still wonder if there's examples where tuba bottoms the horns and contra bottoms the bones.... Cylinder versus cone shapes.

[@ruramikael]

Liszt beging his Dante Symphony with three trombones unison and the tuba one octave below.

[@user-yq3iw1mo6h]

What is the piece at 0:14 ?

[@whoddoncarlsson]

10:23 There is no such thing as overuse of tuba, it is an impossibility

[@itznoxy7193]

Is there a special reason why so many chorale works have 4 trombones? After you mentioned it I realized almost every score I know that has chorus also has 4 bones? I thought it was just a scale/balance thing but there are plenty of large works with only 3 (like the planets). Is there something about the inclusion of voices that necessitates a 4th trombone in terms of colour, voicing options, or functions?

[@TheSacqueboute]

All I can think of is that four part harmony is quite common with vocal writing.

[@mpsmith9913]

There are *so* many counter-examples that come to mind - Beethoven’s 9th symphony, Mozart’s Requiem, Brahms’ German Requiem, to name just 3 major works - that I’m extremely curious what works you had in mind that have 4 trombones. The only ones I can think of are Mahler symphonies, and he often used four trombones + tuba regardless of whether there was a choir present. That said, the use of trombones as support for voices dates back to long before trombones ever joined the symphony orchestra, so it stands to reason that if there were enough different vocal parts within the trombone family’s range, you could see more than 3 trombone voices supporting them. And that’s not even getting into the Moravian tradition of trombone choirs with true SATB trombones…

[@mmoo364]

I appreciate what you do. But you do not have an educational series on orchestral arrangement. Why?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I do have several courses/resources: macProVideo Orchestration 101-104 Orchestration Online Playlists • Intro to Orchestra • MOOOC Term 1 • Piano to Orchestra • Orchestration Questions

[@infinitudedc]

One day, technology might have ears to tune up the chords like real trombonists would

[@MiloDC]

Patreon link is broken. Please separate it from the "Visit" text at the end.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks! Fixed.

[@OdinComposer]

Damn the reversed mussorgsky example sounds a little bit like a basoon timbre

[@toronado455]

This is absolutely no way synthesizer can demo this accurately

[@_emanmodnar]

Step with caution when mixing sharps keys with brass (the Note Performer examples in this video clearly illustrate why … ouch). And please stop using brass so stereotypically 🥺💔 They are not only made for glissandos and heroic fanfares and ugly loud sounds… They can actually play pretty, mellow melodies and create rich, deep and beautiful sounding textures, if you would allow them 😔 but instead you give them 278 bars rests, and write music with FFFF where the floor rumbles and everyone is holding their ears.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

The NotePerformer mockup doesn't necessarily prove your point about sharp keys, as the designers of version 1 (which I use here) intentionally built in some randomness in the intonation to match typical spreading between sections and groups of instruments. It's the best I can do just for a video like this. People are quick to point out imperfections, but slow to fund the kind of investment that perfection would require. So please forgive my little video its inadequacies. As to your other points, no arguments from me, as I have been promoting a wide range of approaches for brass that frequent, omnivorous score-reading will reveal.

[@_emanmodnar]

@@OrchestrationOnline Of course. I’ve followed your videos, and as far I see, you have a great understanding of brass instruments. If novice arrangers chose certain keys without understanding the brass instruments, they can easily end up in situations with bad fingerings or slide positions due to nature of the instruments, which will lead to brass players struggling with intonation. All of which could have been avoided by choosing certain voicings or placing the arrangement in another key.

[@bennischwarzfisch1828]

Warum nehmen Sie keine Klangbeispiele echter Instrumente? Es gibt viele Bauarten von Tuben das Klangspektrum geht von topfig bis sehr hell. So kann man niemandem ein fundiertes Wissen über Instrumentation an die Hand geben. Ich bin selbst Tubist in einem renomiertem deutschen Orchester. Dies trifft bei dem Posaunensatz genauso zu. Es gibt Posauenen deutscher Bauart und Posaunen amerikanischer Bauart. Die deutscher Bauart mischen sich besser mit dem Orchesterklang. Die Posaunen amerikanischer stechen eher grell durch. Sie sollten von diesen scheußlich leblosen digitalen Klängen wieder zu Klangbeispielen kommen die von echten Musikern dargeboten werden. Gerade in den aus dem Stück herausgelösten Instrumentensätzen.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

The perfect is the enemy of the good, my friend. A video containing an exhaustive comparison of different models of instrument would be many times as long, confuse the point, and be far beyond my capacity to produce. Because you see, just like you I am also a professional working at very fast pace at a high level of commitment - in my case, composing and arranging works for clients and orchestras around the world. I am using a general approach here because I know that my viewers who can use this information are intelligent enough to adjust it to their own needs and situations. And I'm well aware of the variety of timbral qualities between different makes. Don't assume that because I use a sample occasionally that this means my own information and experience are limited. Far from it.