Orchestration Tip: Unison Trumpet Doubling

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Apologies for editing out the time change at bar 562 in the Bartók excerpt, oops! 🤭

[@Noblankit]

Is Carmina Burana canceled? You haven’t posted about it in a while.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@Noblankit I've been sick for two months, don't worry. The main series drops at 77K, don't forget. But we're getting closer and closer. Thanks for checking in.

[@YourFavouriteColor]

I've got to say, the pedagogy on this channel gets better and better. Explanation+short excerpt with audio and visual+principle behind concept. The perfect way to lean. THANK YOU. PS I own the second book "100 more tips." Should I also get the first one? Are they both unique volumes or is the second one more of an upgrade to the first?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi YFC! The first book is its own thing, with 100 other tips. The second book is an additional book of content. So all together, both books collectively contain 200 unique tips. Thank you so much for your great comments!

[@Qermaq]

7:23 that doubled C# made me wince just looking at it!

[@AndrewRayQuiroz]

Thank you, Thomas! I have noticed that Tchaikovsky loved trumpet a2 unisons, especially in the Pathetique symphony. My favorite example is a lower one near the end of the 2nd Theme of the 4th Movement (before the Tuba comes in).

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That's a great excerpt for lower trumpet unison as well. You can really hear them scorch, and it takes some focus to keep everything even. I really appreciate you chiming in, thanks!

[@sjmitchell1966]

Your comments about the lower register are certainly very interesting. I'm not a composer or orchestrator, rather a performer (symphony orchestra, opera pit) and I was drawn to thinking about Carmen. Blend becomes a major factor when you consider the limits of range below the staff, especially when different performers have such...... rigid.... attitudes toward which kind of trumpet they will play (written in A, often played on a C)

[@janjarvlepp382]

Excellent clear explanations. Thank you.

[@ErnestoComposer]

Awesome insight. I was listening to Summon The Heroes by John Williams just yesterday which has a very Fanfare of the Common Man-y type opening, and was wondering how many trumpets he used. I looked up the score and found he used six in unison, which is crazy because the recording of the Boston Pops makes it sound like less than that. Love these tips!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Yeah those players are crazy good, and they can match up their intonation spookily. Thanks so much, Ernesto!

[@itznoxy7193]

The version by the Boston Pops might have been using a reduced orchestra, likely 3 trumpets. It's common for when orchestras perform John Williams pieces live to use a "standard" orchestra, not the large-scale ones he uses on the recording stage.

[@J-MLindeMusic]

Your videos (and books which I need to get) are highly appreciated. Hope you're feeling better!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Taking it one day at a time, thanks so much. But having a good week at present, hope it lasts.

[@rondoman477]

I think you used the wrong audio at 1:47, where the trombones play that part 8 measures earlier lol.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

haha oops! I blame society (or the brain-fog, it comes and goes).

[@fedoraguy6774]

About to mention this

[@aeternamente13]

It's interesting in the Copland how the three trumpets, four horns, and two trombones balance perfectly

[@DmitryTimofeev]

Thank you so much! ❤

[@OrchestrationOnline]

My pleasure, Dmitry!

[@martinsaroch3512]

I've foud here answer to my question. Thank you!

[@floridianbat]

another great video 👍

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks, you're so kind!

[@looney1023]

Fantastic stuff. Very enlightening, especially about the subtle differences between 2, 3, 4, and more in tone. You can definitely hear the difference. One small correction: The Holst excerpt is from 8 bars earlier than shown on the page, I believe. You can hear the trumpets have the quarter note melody, not what's written in their staff (which is played by trombones). I think the audio cuts off right where that page of the music begins.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Thanks so much for your kind words. Yes, the wrong audio clip got dropped into my video editing suite while I was correcting some images. Sorry about that.

[@herveorus7432]

Thanks Thomas for this very important tips. To be used soon in a new score. All the best !!!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi Hervé! That's great to hear! I always love it when I find my advice has been put directly to work.

[@pilcaroo]

Thank you, very clear and articulated explanation. In Copland Fanfare, it baffles me why he'd choose to write the rhythm that way. For me, it doesn't sound like it's written, rhythmically. If you'd put a beat under that it would sound completely off. I asked myself the same question with part 1 of Pictures At An Exhibition when I conducted a band that played it.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I think this was from a time where composers experimented scoring things AROUND the best, rather than ON the beat in some passages - so the audience would be kept guessing a little about the metre. I was recently revising one of my big splashy pieces from two decades ago, and I saw that I'd done the same thing framing a 6/8 passage in 3/4 just to keep it a little nebulous. Snorting at my younger naïveté, I put it back in 6/8 with one bar of 3/4 so the players would have the least amount of confusion. Haha!

[@mal2ksc]

"Pictures" Promenade is in 11/4 time, that's why. It's written as alternating 6/4 and 5/4 for legibility. It doesn't feel that way to me either, but I'm not experienced playing in 11/4. 11/8, yes, but The Mars Volta is _juuust_ a little bit different so it's kinda hard to carry over.

[@hisc0rehq843]

very good video! thanks for the tips :D

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Good to hear that the information was useful!

[@CristianoFrankSax]

Really the trumpet in the upper region is a dangerous zone for musicians without experience. In my case I write to amateur musicians usually, even better is to fold in octaves, so I run less risk of spoiling the music. Congratulations on the video.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Great advice. Considering a lot of developing composers' first try at orchestration is usually with student-to-semipro ensembles, it's always best to make amends. Thanks so much.

[@MrHestichs]

I have a memory that you made a video detailing a Ravel chord. I have another vague memory it featured unison alto flute, english horn or bass clarinet. Do you know which one this might be?

[@rubenmolino386]

excelent !!

[@itznoxy7193]

How noticeable is the difference between a 3 trumpet and 4 trumpet unison? It doesn't seem to be immediately apparent to me on a recording. Is it perhaps something you "feel" more in a live concert?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

It's not hugely different - but some conductors and players feel that four is more stable and integrated in timbre. Certainly in the case of the Janacek Sinfonietta opening, if you put four trumpet players on each part, you'd get much less tense sound - but then you'd get 12-trumpet unisons at the ends of the first few phrases, and that may be illegal. (jk)

[@mal2ksc]

@@OrchestrationOnline It's not illegal to have twelve trumpets, but you risk being reclassified as a Drum and Bugle Corps. 😁

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@mal2ksc Haha fair enough! 😄

[@ryan_1314]

I marched in a drum corps for part of a summer, and in part of the music there's two trumpets screaming a high E (concert D6), and during earlier rehersals their intonation was almost a semitone apart and *super* shrill. Of course later in the season they got it under control, but I definitely heard firsthand what it sounds like for more than one trumpet to play in an extreme range. Thanks for the video!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Cheers, Ryan! Yeah, it takes some work to nail the intonation up there for both players sometimes. Way easier for one - but like I say, if the composer can make it worth the struggle, then do it.

[@tejasnair3399]

How would you explain the way spectral composers approach orchestration, or what are your thoughts on their scoring?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That would be a 50,000-word treatise. I've addressed some aspects of this over the course of many many videos on the channel, apologies that I haven't specifically posted that topic on its own yet.

[@tejasnair3399]

@@OrchestrationOnline oohh that would make for an interesting one. Also, I have a question that’s been with me for a while: what is it about Poulenc’s writing for winds? I’m doing a composition thesis on his use of harmony and form, and I feel like his sonatas for the different wind instruments and piano seem to capture the essence of the instruments so beautifully, is it just he writes so idiomatically for them?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@tejasnair3399 Poulenc had a beautiful understanding of registers, articulation, and timbral quality (not to mention shades of nuance). This does not necessarily mean he was a fabulous wind orchestrator on the level of Stravinsky - but his chamber works are deeply intuitive and moving, not to mention prized by many wind soloists.

[@Oriya-b1x]

1:47 Well, these are the trombones... And for the record, we also sound fantastic in unison Also, can you do video like this about Trombone unison?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Yeah, haha, the wrong musical clip got dropped into my video editing suite when I went back to fix something. Great suggestion!

[@MuzixMaker]

2:24 Knife Edge

[@gepmrk]

You beat me to it.

[@MuzixMaker]

@@gepmrk great minds think alike

[@pwdempsey02]

The Tchaikovsky excerpt you used is not the best example of "in the staff playing" because the part is written for trumpet in E. The modern trumpet player will have to transpose this part up a major third to play it on C trumpet (or up a tri tone for Bb trumpet), making the excerpt play mostly above the staff. Low trumpet unison can blend well in louder pasaages. Some examples of this are carmen prelude to act 1 and the ending of the tanhouser overture.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

For C trumpet, only the written E-flat will be above the staff as sounding G. That is not "mostly" above the staff. For the B-flat trumpet, if we interpret the written C5 as F-sharp 5, then more notes wlll be above the staff - but not by very much on the average. Certainly nothing about this excerpt takes any of the pitches up to a place where there's enough tension to cause any of the risks I talk of in the tip, and certainly it does show how two middle-(to-upper, granted)-range trumpets can play against the whole orchestra.

[@johnbjorgenson5481]

From a professional point of view, what are your thoughts on Schumann’s orchestration?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I think that people should listen to period performances before condemning his efforts.

[@jonathanp935]

Hope you're feelling well Thomas, I've been missing your content, wondering where the rest of the evaluations are for last years challenge.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I've been really sick for the past two months. But currently feeling better. More video content on the way this week and next week.

[@circuitgamer7759]

Most of the tips I've seen from you are really good and useful, except for the fact that I'm trying to write in MuseScore 4 and none of the balance is right between any instrument, especially brass. I need to learn a different composition program that has better and more complete playback at some point, but I haven't decided which ones yet.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi circuitgamer! Both Dorico and Sibelius are compatible with NotePerformer, which is usually pretty balanced and is very low-cost. I recently did an entire independent film soundtrack using NotePerformer run through Sibelius, just to see if I could do it. It worked fine (though usually I score for live orchestra).

[@circuitgamer7759]

@@OrchestrationOnline I'll have to try that sometime soon then. At the moment I have no income at all, so I would have to try just the free version or the trial version for now, but I can hope to use the full version in the future.

[@itznoxy7193]

@@circuitgamer7759+1 for NotePerformer. It is really a game changer.

[@PeterHAdams]

Apologies for something almost completely off topic. Finale music notation is going to die. Opinion?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

We're currently discussing this over in the Facebook Orchestration Online group. I think that Finale has been kept alive for a very long time by enthusiasts, now it can't be maintained as a commercial product. It may end up open-sourced. The professional options are Dorico and Sibelius for most composers at this stage. I would prefer not to have big arguments pro and con those two apps under this video. Both have their great features and their drawbacks. My recommendation is to try both of them out and see which one suits the best, rather than getting on one side or another of endless debates.

[@richirare]

I have been using Finale for close to 10 years and last month I made the decision to switch to Dorico when I realizded Finale is becoming stagnant while Dorico keeps moving forward with constant updates.

[@tamashitrying]

wow First

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That would make you the principal player. 🙂

[@tamashitrying]

@@OrchestrationOnline Thanks

[@amj.composer]

PLEASE why the clicking sound effects in the intro 😭😭😭, I have severe misophonia and this is one of my favourite channels

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi amj, which part? Do you mean the music or the spoken clip about Patreon? If it's the latter, then just jump 14 seconds ahead when you watch my videos.