Orchestration Tip: English Horn vs. Oboe

[@kmk8284]

Filipino composers often use the English horn to sound like nature or to imitate some ethnic styled singing because of its low register and very open texture. I'm a Filipino composer and this video helped me a lot. Thank so much!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Great to hear, KMK!

[@kappabravomusic2101]

Very interesting point you've brought up.

[@liammalone9263]

That's fascinating, very cool

[@kovachito]

Clarifying about the nuances between "relatives" instruments. As usual, a great video for every orchestrators out there. Thank you, Thomas. Grettings.!!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Cheers, Frano! 🙂

[@WoFfan13]

I’ve been waiting for a video like this! I’m an oboist and composer and I compose for orchestra and it’s lovely to know how they’re different! Thank you!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Very happy to get a thumbs-up from an oboist, that means a lot.

[@Sploooks]

Thomas I’m ever thankful that you upload these videos for free, having not come from an incredibly classical background I learned most of what I know of orchestration either from score reading or listening/watching your videos, keep doing what you’re doing because you provide an invaluable resource to so many composers/aspiring orchestrators!

[@neilsaunders9309]

It helps me to think of the difference between oboe and cor anglais as somewhat analogous (in the relevant registers) to that between the violin and the viola or, if you want to get a bit more obscure, between the regular Bb (or A) clarinet and the basset horn.

[@PsychedelicChameleon]

Thank You OrchestrationOnline, I'm not a composer, but I wanted to hear english horn passages, and these are such beautiful examples.

[@FictionWriter95]

I recently orchestrated Chopin's famous Funeral March, in memory of my dad (who passed away in January), and I gave the opening melancholic melody to the English Horn; I don't think it would have worked as well on any other instrument. So much pathos and character.

[@danielf1066]

very sorry for your loss i agree the cor anglais is the best option for that piece (maybe im biased as an oboist)- the cor's tone really lends itself to sombre and introspective music and it can sound so beautiful when it gets those sort of solo moments

[@OCcanUsee]

The Arabian Dance (Nutcracker) is what got my attention for the English Horn sound. Very enticing.

[@markcox5385]

In England we call it the Cor Anglais!

[@laurencefinston7036]

Thank you for this interesting and informative video. I hadn't run across your channel before. I once heard someone playing an oboe in a situation where I couldn't see him or her but I just loved the sound. The next morning I asked what it was and somebody told me. Ever since then I've loved the sound of the oboe and even briefly took lessons. This may sound prosaic, but the two problems with arranging or orchestrating for oboe and English horn from my point of view is the expense of the instruments and the fact that I think they would disturb my neighbors. I believe the best way to learn to arrange (which is what I do) or orchestrate for instruments is to learn to play as many of them as possible, at least somewhat. There are reasonably priced and playable trumpets and flutes, but not oboes, to say nothing of English horns (or bassoons, for that matter). And woodwinds, especially ones with reeds, require more care and attention than most other instruments. Still, there's nothing like the sound of an oboe or English horn.

[@kappabravomusic2101]

This was superbly useful information for instrumentation. Thank you very much.

[@sergeandrejones.pianiste]

Very very good video. Very clear, very well explained. Thank you!

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

The English Horn is quite often paired with the bass clarinet -- e.g. Petrouska and first movement of Mahler 2.

[@HeimburgerMusic]

Thank you for this video! I was working on a composition and I had this section that was missing a melody. After watching your video I realized that an English horn was the perfect thing for it!

[@eastmarvista3267]

As a former Oboe player, very informative.

[@AdamOctorachmadi]

Thanks for the informations, i always wondered the roles of English Horn and tend to ignore adding them up or just used to doubling

[@MyScragy]

An interesting thing to note there are plenty of models that do have low Bbs for English horns. This is actually used in Mahler’s first Symphony.

[@Qermaq]

6:20 is there some sort of tinkly robot stuff going on in the background?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Good ear! I think those are processing errors.

[@pukalo]

Are you able to do a video on the alto clarinet for wind band and basset horn for orchestra?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Maybe someday. Great suggestion.

[@jtfy972]

Not sure if anyone else has already mentioned it but it’s possible to get an extension to play the low Bb (3) for the cor. But then you can’t play low B3 - it’s an either/or situation, you have to change the bell as needed.

[@sharlottedevere3009]

There are a few models of EH that come with the low Bb built into the instrument. These do allow for chromatic playing between the bottom notes (C, B and Bb). Many players prefer NOT to have this set up, as it adds weight to an already non-ergonomic instrument and is a very expensive option as well. For composers be aware when writing for EH that the low Bb is possible for some players but not all, and that chromatic writing involving the low B and Bb is not feasible for the vast majority of players.

[@jtfy972]

@@sharlottedevere3009 I had no idea they existed! Learn something new every day :)

[@dion1949]

Shostakovich uses the high register of the English horn in his 4th and 11th symphonies. They're somewhat strained, but they was intended.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Big big solo in the 8th too -- doubled by oboes and clarinets in the high register.

[@misi1979]

I'm glad to see again with new material. Are planning to make the orchestration series with the brass and percussion section ? And I really miss a new night story with the orchestra with Berlioz read by You! :) Best wishes for You and You're loved ones!

[@timothytikker3834]

When you call for more frequent scoring for English horn, it reminds me of someone once noting that in fact most all professional oboists own English horns, so there should also be the possibility of scoring for more than one English horn in a work. One of the only examples I know is a passage in Maurice Duruflé's _Requiem_, in which he has one of the oboes doubling on second English horn. Also, where does the Oboe d'amore figure in all this? I used to think of it as neither fish no fowl, but recently have come to think the opposite: the best of both, i.e. combining the best qualities of the English horn and oboe in one instrument. I was recently involved (as continuo organist) in a performance of JS Bach's "Ein' feste Burg" cantata, which calls for no less than three oboi d'amore, which is quite a sound!

[@mr88cet]

The story goes that the English horn - “cor anglais” in its French original name - was called that because its body was so long that it needed to be bent, so that the right hand could reach the lower toneholes. “Bent horn” in French is “cor anglé,” pronounced the same as “cor anglais” - English horn. However, as the technology to forge keys improved, they no longer need to bend the body for the right hand to reach the lower tone holes, so they made it straight. Calling it the “bent horn” no longer made sense, so people started calling it the “cor anglais” - English horn instead! That’s a lovely and amusing story, but unfortunately it’s very unlikely to be true. There are no historical records of it being called the “cor anglé.” Oh well!

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

Great story! Sounds plausible to me!

[@mr88cet]

@@CloudyMcCloud00, it is for-sure true that they used to be built with two bends, BTW, but the story that that’s how the name came about is probably apocryphal.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

@@mr88cet If you look at how words get mangled today ("everyday" being a prime example 😡😁) I can well believe it (and that the etymology got lost). Btw, "crumhorn" also means "bent horn"!

[@mr88cet]

@@CloudyMcCloud00, that’s interesting, and in that case it does indeed seem to be the case (or “curved” horn perhaps). Another amusing one is the “French” horn, from Germany.

[@CloudyMcCloud00]

@@mr88cet Indeed. Apparently there is a true French horn, with a smaller bore.

[@shosho_hrubblefongers9311]

6:16 Weird noise in the audio?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

All I hear is the oboe and English horn fading in as the harp plays.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

It's a very old recording.

[@jeclipse129]

The English horn typically does not play all of the technical flute, oboe and clarinet runs as much that you would find in concert band orchestrations.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

And yet pro second or third-chair orchestral oboists should be able to play nearly everything in terms of articulation and fluid passage work on an English horn that they can on their standard oboe. The English horn is really a fantastic instrument, and in a lot of ways has been barely explored in the main concert repertoire.

[@alfabsc]

HINDEMITH March from Symphonic Metamorphosis is the only band piece I ever played that requires 2 oboes, EH, and 2 bassoons. Otherwise, you are 100% correct.

[@jeclipse129]

@@alfabsc there are a probably more than a few symphonic band pieces like this, Minor Alterations, Russian Christmas, Where Never Lark or Eagle Flew, Alfred Reed stuff

[@ThePianoFortePlayer]

Thanks

[@renevillarreall.r.3503]

Hello Mr. Goss! I'm a long time admirer of your teaching and viewer of the channel. It's not directly related to this specific video, but I wanted to know if you could help me out with some research. It's about conical and cylindrical bore wind instruments: I remember you explained how it affects overtones and doublings, in your video on Bartók's Game of Pairs (and probably elsewhere) for example. My specific question is if you could tell me of books/literature where I can study this and cite it from, as I am working on a dissertation about Ravel and I believe this is very relevant to it. Thanks in advance for the help, and thanks always for sharing your insight and content.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Hi René! You can cite my book 100 MORE Orchestration Tips, with its illustrations of the differences between spectrographs of cylindrical horn and tuba waveforms compared to cylindrical trumpet waveforms - not to mention the specific chapter dealing with this issue, Tip no. 33 Cones vs. Cylinders. Also Bret Newton has information about this in his Band Orchestration book Volume 3: Brass.

[@renevillarreall.r.3503]

@@OrchestrationOnline thank you so very much!

[@itznoxy7193]

Ah, the low-boe

[@OrchestrationOnline]

That's "El Lo-boe." 🙂

[@Mothloverforever]

That’s my cat’s name, lobo

[@itznoxy7193]

@@Mothloverforever Tellem I said *pst pst*

[@leszekkarczewski]

I used to play oboe but as a #vgm composer I've shifted into wind MIDI controllers instead. Hence I really appreciate your video lecture on Eh role in orchestration. I think the whole oboe family is worth many videos, don't you think?

[@DallasCrane]

Are there examples when two or more English horns are used?

[@laurencefinston7036]

I can't think of any examples, but it's hard to rule something out entirely. I have never seen more than one in any score, neither for chamber music nor for symphonic music. In most orchestras, there are two or three oboes, with one doubling on English horn. I know of one case where the English horn was owned by the orchestra and not by the player. As an arranger or orchestrator, one couldn't count on an orchestra having more than one available. Another reason would be that English horn would normally play the occasional solo and otherwise would be a middle voice. I think a score would tend to sound muddy if there were too many English horns.

[@laurencefinston7036]

I just checked a couple of vocal scores for Broadway musicals, which list the instruments in the pit orchestra. I thought Bernstein's "Candide" might possibly have two woodwind players doubling on English horn, which, however, wouldn't necessarily mean both at the same time. However, there is only one oboist, doubling on English horn. I thought Leigh and Darion's "Man of La Mancha" might, too, because it only has two guitars, bass, percussion, woodwinds and brass. However, it only has one oboist, not doubling on English horn. Finally, I checked Weill's "Street Scene", but again, there was only one oboe with no doubling on English horn. I didn't think it was worth bothering to check any others.

[@laurencefinston7036]

I'm rather surprised, but I did find an example: Mahler, "Des Knaben Wunderhorn, Der Tambourg'sell" ("The Drummer Boy"). There are two oboes and both double on English horn. In the second section, they both switch to English horn and it stays that way until the end. It is rather dirge-like music, fitting the subject matter. So, maybe there are more, but I suspect examples are as rare as hen's teeth.

[@mr88cet]

Great thoughts here, thanks. However, a lot of the English-horn photos here appear to be oboe d’amore.

[@sharlottedevere3009]

And I saw a photo, labeled bass oboe, that is actually the lower joint of a Heckelphone - which is NOT a bass oboe. Though, because of the rarity of both instruments and the 'overlap' in their low register pitches, are often used interchangeably. Not always successfully, because there are significant differences in sound characteristics and dynamic possibilities between the two.

[@stefanalexanderlungu1503]

I'm sure you're tired of seeing people ask this, but do you have any idea of when the next orchestration course is going to come out?

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I'm really not able to schedule recording sessions until Covid eases. Apologies to all who've been waiting, I'm not happy with it either.

[@arbiforumnow]

How do I download ebooks after I've paid?!

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Contact me directly via orchestration online dot com website and I'll sort your order. We're getting quite a few buyers' server rejecting our replies.

[@sashakindel3600]

I would rather like an instrument that is like an oboe but a fifth lower. If not that, than an instrument that is like an English horn but a fifth higher.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

The compromises are what make both instruments not only beautiful, but playable. An English horn that wasn't optimised for its lower range would prove very difficult to control, not to mention orchestrate - whereas an oboe that was too smoothly evened out across its registers would lack a lot of its native character. Trust the pro players - they deal with all sorts of issues like this on a daily basis, and will deliver what's possible in a well-scored piece of music.

[@padraicfanning7055]

You might be thinking of the Taille (or tenor hautbois), which is pitched exactly the same as a cor anglais, but it has an open bell. This makes for a sound that's more piercing than the cor anglais, which makes it suitable for use in the louder or more jubilant movements in Bach's cantatas (e.g. BWV 140). Unfortunately, this instrument is rare outside of Baroque ensembles. No, I'm not talking about the oboe da caccia, which has a completely different shape.

[@Felixplaysthecello]

You might want to look into the Oboe d’amore, pitched between the English horn and the oboe.

[@cdirth]

Bass oboe is not a dreaded auxiliary! I prefer playing bass oboe to playing oboe or EH.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

Not for you. 🙂 And that's fine. You have to view my other resources for the context of why a lot of other oboists find the instrument a struggle, chief among them difficulty sourcing or making a fresh reed, and/or being hired to play an instrument that's been sitting in a case for years and is now in bad shape. But then I also talk about how good the new lupophone is, and how it should eventually replace the heckelphone and the Lorée-style bass oboe.

[@cdirth]

All valid points! I wish there was more work out there for bass oboe. Lupophone should be a game changer if composers write for it. Bass oboe reeds are easier to come by than lupophone reeds and at 26k, the lupohone is astronomically more expensive than even the nicest Loree or even Hiniker bass oboe

[@randolphfriend8260]

Amazing! I suppose. However, for some, me; sadly, I would need to have MUCH trainings in just WHAT each of these words used today mean. And also, just HOW do they each relate to those around them. 😢 I WAS expecting to HEAR how the two woodwinds were different, or and, the same. May BE these instruments' color are similar to Oriental food flavors; subtle, VERY subtle. 😢

[@OrchestrationOnline]

There's a link in the description to free samples of my course on woodwinds. You can also watch my other videos on orchestration, and buy an orchestration manual. Everybody starts somewhere - the point is to keep going.

[@randolphfriend8260]

@@OrchestrationOnline oh.... 😳 just a sales gimmick. 😢 Thank you for the teaser

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@randolphfriend8260 Nothing stopping anyone from sampling as much as they need. I hope you find it useful.

[@randolphfriend8260]

@@OrchestrationOnline I went back, & reread the title. I realized that I was looking, listening, for something else. I am sorry for confusing you with my mistake. On a side note; in my last semester of a master's program, one of my professors told our class - that it would take at least two years before our language choice would morph into what more common folk would be able to understand. I determined that I would choose simpler words, ones that I used before university, to talk with everyday ordinary folk. And I reserved the bigger ones for my classmates & those who showed an interest in my subect.

[@nandoflorestan]

@@randolphfriend8260 dude, this video is for students of composition and orchestration. University level. You do not say what words you found difficult. If you have no background in music, for instance, if you don't know the common musical meanings of the words fifth, transposition, fortissimo, register etc. then communication with you is much slower, since these would all have to be taught first. This video could not have been made for you, it would take hours instead of 10 minutes. The word "fifth" is learned during the 2 years of music theory that precede a composition course. Students of orchestration usually already know most of these words and wouldn't want it repeated all the time. You are wrong about jargon. It can be bad (such as in law) or simply necessary (such as in music). It is extremely difficult to talk about music -- even when technical terms are used, much more so if one can't rely on them. Also you don't know where you are; this channel is one of the best things ever to happen on the Internet, yet you are making up your mind against it -- "sales gimmick"... Your mind jumped the shark there! You jump to conclusions, OK? Apply this warning to your entire life. The advice already given to you is correct: instead of complaining here, go get your introductory information -- it is out there, in books, in teachers, in courses, in friends, in life. If you reply, I really really hope, that you reply with a question about where the information is, instead of a reiteration of your baseless complaints. I really hope so.

[@luzangelzumarraga1234]

An English Horn is also known as a Cor Anglais.

[@mr88cet]

I am mystified as to why more composers don’t write for English horn in small wind ensembles.

[@andrewphillips-hird3761]

As much as I am fond of the solo in the Rob Roy Overture, please do not write top written Es for the cor anglais!!! At least on my instrument there was a massive difference between the already weak E flat and the infinitely weaker top E. So my opinion is to set E flat as the hard limit (but ideally you don't really want to be hanging around up there for long either)

[@OrchestrationOnline]

I do stress not hanging out up there very often, but it does bear repeating. 🙂 I think the thinness of the excerpt speaks for itself. Great to get a perspective from a player, thanks for sharing!

[@cdirth]

I hate playing anything above a high A on my EH. The tone gets thin and unstable

[@FreeportRichmond]

Modern instruments (with third octave keys) are absolutely fine in terms of usefulness up to written high F# or G, same as the oboe. Many converted oboists try to use oboe fingerings up there that don’t work as well. It really is a different instrument as you said. The Berlioz Rob Roy you included is a great example of successfully using the high E, as is his Roman Carnival Overture. The Persichetti EH Concerto offers examples of good high register use, up to written G. The Donizetti Concerto treats the high E very much as a normal note, as do the french impressionists like Debussy and Ravel. That said, even as the principal EH in a full time symphony orchestra, I resent composers/arrangers who score for high EH without purpose (such as loud tuttis passages). Used in the right contexts however, the third octave can be used to really great (and beautiful) effect.

[@OrchestrationOnline]

@@FreeportRichmond Another great player perspective, thanks so much Shawn!

[@SquidKing]

i always thought the last movement of Das Lied von der Erde was a cor anglais... woops lol

[@maxwellkowal3065]

Aren't they the same

[@stefanalexanderlungu1503]

English horn is synonymous with cor anglais

[@HamletBert-y1e]

Walker Jason Davis Michelle Lee Michael

[@slendrmusic]

Thanks