Order VS Chaos

[@HyenaDandy]

That's one of the things I liked about the show. That even when there is a group with a clear ideology, they're not all the same guy. Kosh is not Ulkesh. Mollari is not VEEEEEr (hey, that's how Mollari says it...) Talia is not Lyta is not Bester. When we see Delenn meet with the grey council before she returns to start metamorphosing, the grey Council are all different. And that was I think part of the key, that separated this from other shows. Every character is an individual.

[@dennish300]

you needed one more E on Veeeeeer... LOL

[@captainnerd6452]

@@dennish300 "What do you want, you moon-faced assassin of joy?"

[@theyos88]

Well, to be honest, Talia is not Talia either.

[@HyenaDandy]

@@Grauenwolf aye, but it goes beyond that. They are all nevertheless clearly part of their cultures as well. It's a very hard balance to strike in fiction and it was done very well.

[@SaraPickell]

The Shadows - "There is only Chaos and Evolution." The Vorlons - "There is only Order and Obedience." When Lorien saves Sheridan he says "Hope is all there is." An interesting setup despite being several episodes distant from each other that I only noticed today.

[@tomabbott5259]

Even as allways Hope and prayer...

[@stephenbyrne2170]

The Shadows - "There should be only Chaos and Evolution." The Vorlon - "There should be only Order and Obedience." The Vorlons and the Shadows Together - *What greater meaning, can the existence of Life possibly have, to offer?*

[@biocapsule7311]

@@tomabbott5259 Not hope and prayers, Lorien (JMS) phrase is hope is all we have. Hope drives us on. Prayer is pointless and no first ones has ever use that word nor is it use in the show very often, it's at best a supplication to external forces to do what you can and should do yourself, at worst a crutch in favor of non-existence entities over self-determination. B5 is spiritual but not religious.

[@kimnice]

The other First Ones had their own questions and ideologies. All of them were just one part of the story. "Where are you going?", "Why are you here?" Examples of question posted by other First Ones.

[@TaliaIGhul]

Two things I noticed about this scene. The choice of who the first ones speak to. John was spoken to by the Vorlons. In a way, John represents the main species that sided with the shadows. Delenn spoke to the Shadows. In a way she represents the main species that sided with the vorlons. Their approaches were different. The Vorlons appeared as one person and was more like disciplinarian. The Shadows appeared as friends and loved ones, trying to seduce them into their side.

[@markfreeman4727]

being one race was literally called the shadows and that the vorlons (to my understanding) are being of light, that would be suddle hints to our view of good vs evil, although this would be a case which ones the evil one?

[@jodyw1]

Mark Freeman except the fight was never good vs. evil. It’s order vs. chaos. Both sides have good and bad qualities. It’s up to us to choose our destiny - somewhere between these two rigid poles.

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

@@markfreeman4727 Both aren't good nor evil. The Shadows don't wanna "rule" and "conquer" - They wanna create a enviorment in which the younger Races can achieve the same things as they did so that they became equals. True equals - it's hinted in the Show sometimes that the Shadows respect those which oppose them. They could've killed Sheridan several times but no ... they respected his freedom of choice. While the Vorlons sometimes directly destroyed whole planets if those didn't act like they wanted them to do. The Vorlons traveld around aons ago and mengled with the DNA of the younger races so that if we see them, we autmatically would see them as "holy" and "full of light". The Vorlons represent totally controll - While the Shadows represent Chaos, which means the Vorlons are "Good to you" as long as you do what they want you to do, while the Shadows just wanna embrace your true self. The issue with both of them is that both contradicting themself - The Vorlons are, like Kosh, not a unity which want actually "controll everything" and the Shadows aren't as "open" as they kinda present themself. Which is the reason they both have to leave - to finally take the next step.

[@teleruin8686]

@@DaroriDerEinzige As Sheridan Says. it's like two parents disagreeing on how to rais their children... The Shadows are the father that wants the kids to thougen up, and learn the hard way. Send them out in the woods at 9 and when/if they come back alive they will have become real men/woman that he can be proud of. While the vorlons are the crazy strict mother who wants the kids do be well behaved and disciplined, and use all the psycolocigal tricks to make the kids feel bad when they are not doing as she says.. None of them are really good parents

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

@@teleruin8686 Your comparision is rather disturbing than acurate. I hope you do well though.

[@SulliMike23]

The Shadows and the Vorlons don't realize this, but they're both right and wrong. Without chaos, order creates slaves; and without order, chaos will only destroy everything.

[@sparrowlt]

Both have valid points and both have despicable points. The Shadows are clearly pressented as the bad guys of the series.. but ultimatelly they were tecnically right.. it was conflict and war and the need to survive wich made humans advance and evolve so much in little time.. first the Dilgar war made humans advance and gain much power and resources... then the minbari war made them change and adapt so much to survive that even after the war was over they advanced desperataly so that would not happent again.. of course the fact the shadow's way involved extinction of those who would not adapt or turn to war was not convenient for individuals and unfortunatelly both ancient races ended behaving like childs manipulating younger races to win their point with the other side.. consider that they started as allies

[@thedarkmaster4747]

Lord Riggnarok but it is through order lore and principle that you can cultivate civilizations and preserve knowledge and life, allowing you to use the past to steer the future with true revelations. nethier philosophy ultimately wins, they're both as powerfull as each other. one represents evolution the other represents civilization, language, co-operation, ect, ect... what i disliked about the show is that it portrayed the shadows in an almost intirely negative light, although that light matches the biases of our civilization, it doesn't represent the shadows accurately.

[@thedarkmaster4747]

SulliMike241 Exactly, stagnation verses destruction. a meaningless existence verses an unsurvivable one. they are both different halves of the same coin.

[@duncanshaw1256]

The Dark master All coins have an edge,perhaps that is meant to represent the balance between order and chaos. Without balance everything suffers,both Order and Chaos alike.

[@johntailby74]

The Vorlons could build a society according to their philosophy, it would be very hierarchical. The Shadows could not build a society according to their principles. If the Shadows fought for conflict amongst themselves they would disintegrate. The Shadows could do what many animals do and ritualise the challenge for dominance. this would allow the stronger members to rise tot he top but would not destroy what they had built. The Shadows also had a number of subject races aligned to their cause who must have obeyed them totally how did the Shadows subject them to the forces of evolution. Neither philosophy results in a good society but the Shadows approach seems to contain a greater degree of hypocrisy..

[@sunnchilde]

It took Lorien to talk sense to them that they would listen, as a father figure. They wouldn't dare back talk him. When they were talking about leaving, they spoke as children.

[@lovipoekimo176]

Notice how in the Vorlon vision, the Vorlon lady in-ice is the source of light (and is frozen in place), whereas in the shadow vision, Delenn is as well-lit as the Shadows/characters (who first emerge from the shadows btw) and the characters keep moving around.

[@rh906]

There's also the voice patterns/screech.

[@MrFbueller129]

If you think about it there was a "Star Child" presenting a choice: Lorien. However, he wasn't presenting the choice to the Younger Races, he was presenting it to the Vorlons and Shadows. Either join the other First Ones beyond the Rim as the Galaxy has outgrown the need for either of them or end up alone in a Galaxy that they have made devoid of life over their squabbles.

[@mattwho81]

I liked how this show was never about "Good vs Evil" but rather "Order vs Chaos" and how each of them is as destructive as the other in their own way. And how a people must find their own way between them if they are to survive.

[@saquist]

Both Order and Chaos trend toward corruption, in their extremes they represent a repressive control. The Old Father, willfully blind and partially corrupt or the Devouring Mother, Giving life but strangling it with Stagnation.

[@CrniWuk]

Eh, I think the Shadows have been painted as pretty evil for the most part. I mean Morden was a give away and the way how many of the Servants of the Shadows acted. They had a lot more depth than your typical villain and the Vorlons have done quite a lot of terrible things as well. But in the end the Vorlons had someone like Kosh. The Shadows didn't.

[@2QRh6g1I]

So Assassin's Creed then? Assassins vs Templars.

[@girlgarde]

@@CrniWuk That's one of my complaints about Babylon 5, it never had a Shadow who was like Kosh in mindset at least on camera. I would've liked to have seen a Shadow who realized that the feud between his/her people and the Vorlons had to end as it was destroying the Younger Races. If I'd been in charge of the writing, I'd have made a female Shadow character who was an openly kind caring and nurturing motherly being who worked behind the scenes to end the wars for good and perhaps even sacrifice herself like Kosh did to achieve that goal. It would've shown the audience that the Shadows weren't evil and had good in them but the problem is, how to introduce her? Perhaps she could've been one of the Shadows that was with Mr Morden for a set period of time?

[@warrendesonia7924]

@@girlgarde Very Well Said - I wish the creator of the series had done so.

[@WatcherOfShadows]

What I've continually drawn from this is the need to strike a balance/keep the to middle ground/keep an open mind/stay flexible. To adapt to situations. Not adopt to the extreme, extreme ideologies. In the case of the Shadows or the Vorlons they were both firmly mired in their extreme ideologies. The Shadows saw clearly that the Vorlons were locked into place. But they were just as locked into place. In the in end. I think this illustrates that we must continually question everything.

[@Cassadinegirlaz]

The cool thing that I just recently noticed is right after this scene, when the Vorlon figure and the Shadow figure appear to Delenn and Sheridan on the White Star, the Shadow figure speak with Ed Wasser's voice, the guy who plays Morden. Can't believe it took me all these years to catch that! Very appropriate. Another perfect little touch.

[@Lawcoom]

I love how throughout most of the series we think the shadow wars as a war of conquest but slowly over time as tactics are shown we come to realize along with the cap that its a war of ideas which in some cases are more deadly

[@thedragon133]

i think kosh was a lot friendlier towards the younger races than the other vorlons. he always tried to lead them to the truth, taught them how to fight legends, merged with sheridan. he perhaps, like lo rien, thought that their time in the galaxy was over and that they should move on, step aside.

[@SgtHydra]

If you notice, you have both race's favorites opposing the other. Shadows had been considering humanity to be their protege over the Centauri, Vorlons did the same for Minbari. In the background, each race is trying to get the other's apprentice over to their side (this is especially noticable with Kosh, less so with Mr. Morden, since Delenn basically detected evil on the guy, but still) Minbari confronts the Shadows, Humans confront the Vorlons. Brilliant writing, eh?

[@thedragon133]

@bingoman333 I think all of the four questions are important, not only the vorlons "Who are you?" or the shadows "What do you want?". "Why are you here?" and "Where are you going?" are also main factors and they all influence each other. All of these are questions noone can answer for another person, just for himself.

[@girlgarde]

When the Shadows were talking to Delenn as Ivanova and she said "and War!", she got that wicked grin on her face like the Shadows lust for war and conflict but then again, they DO promote that sort of thing..... When the Shadows assumed the form of Dr Franklin, it felt like the devil himself was trying to tempt Delenn and when the Shadows assumed the form of Lennier, it felt like the Devil was trying to sweet talk Delenn by using a pleasant face.....

[@pepecohetes492]

My son pointed out that the earth is being controlled by a single, totalitarian government, with its own "jack booted" Psi Corps of storm troopers, and that it was a statement on what we could become. Interesting analysis. B5 may have been lower tech, lower budget and some episodes bordering on campy, however I always found it revealing and profound in some ways, and always enjoyed it.

[@saberiandream316]

The best stories are those that the executives have no faith in. The worst stories are those backed by said executives all the way.

[@schlomoshekelstein908]

@@saberiandream316 say no more

[@kuryamtl]

And this was supposedly a big action episode. I loved how the action was just a tool to aid the story. What I loved most about the show, was the growth of the characters and the exploration of philosophies, more than just the action sequences.

[@geraldburke5147]

Great fantasy requires great storytelling. Unlike most scifi shows; or shows in general, the best stories are created fully and completely before being told. Babylon 5 is unique in that its story has fully realized, unlike most other shows that make up portions oer season as they go. This method of adding to a story in portions/ seasons means a plot to the story/series can shift and change season by season due to many factors. Changes in writing, changes in actors, changes in main writers, interference from studio or executives who think they know better. The danger of inconsistent and incomplete storytelling is much greater when the story isnt fully finished. They say Peter Jackson fully mapped out all three Lord of the Rings films before he began shooting because he understood that it was the only way to link all three films paced to a central theme with lesser themes twinned about that major theme like lesser tropes around a larger one to give it strength. That is what Babalon 5 did so well, and that is why it stands out as both unique and unforgettable. Dont get me wrong it is possible to create a great story piece by piece, but it's rare and requires a creator/storyteller that can keep the story consistent in their head until it is fully realized, but more often than not that method is more likely to give rise to problems and inconsistency. Like Athena bursting forth from the mind of Zeus, Babylon 5 did not spring forth till it was fully realized. And graciously weathers the test of time with amazing characters and story that remain vital and significant to any who have watched the show. A work of love, a work of passion, a work of art that speaks to us still. Thank you, Micheal J Stranzinski...

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

@RockyH2 For a while I was more behind the Vorlons than the Shadows, until after my second full sequential viewing of the series. I mean, I understood that neither side were good or evil, but yeah, I think people tend to get in line with the Vorlons because theirs seems less violent, until they bring out their guns. But, it's awesome that B5 encourages actual thinking with it, instead of telling you "this person is right" or whatever. I have a sort of reluctant support of the Shadows' method.

[@martinmanifold2241]

A diamond of a sci fi series

[@daniels7907]

Ironically, the Vorlons are younger than the Shadows, but individually far more powerful. Also more technologically advanced. Sometimes war and conflict lead to progress. But just as often they break down civilizations and cause periods of regression (e.g. Western Europe after the fall of Rome). One wonders how many times the Shadows moved a step forward, only to take two steps back?

[@daniels7907]

Rulerzful Yeah, a ship with a big cannon with firepower to equal a Death Star but the portability of a star destroyer! The Shadow "death cloud" ultimately proved easier to survive, and to stop. In "A Call to Arms" they were able to destroy one such entire system without needing First One help as was required to stop a Vorlon planet killer! In "Interludes and Examinations", a Vorlon force curb-stomped a Shadow fleet, with their mid-size vessels shown as easily having enough power to destroy a Shadow vessel and their larger warship able to withstand a direct hit on the tentacles from a Shadow vessel without it even disabling their weapon system. They also *don't* use ion engines. Ivanova flat out tells Sheriden in "Hunter, Prey" that they have no idea how Kosh's ship's propulsion system works, and obviously since he flies the thing to and from B5 and parks it there they had plenty of chances to ascertain if it used a recognizable propulsion technology. The ship was also sentient (without needing a person plugged into it) and had the ability to extrude defensive systems to keep unwanted curious people away. The Vorlons themselves seem a *lot* more powerful and durable than Shadows. PPG fire will hurt Shadows, but not Vorlons. Vorlons can also put pieces of themselves into other beings to run errands or spy, whereas actual Shadows had to accompany Morden. They could also fly, were telekinetic, and possessed rather impressive telepathic abilities, as well as being the ones who genetically-engineered telepathy into the Younger Races. The gateway to another universe was also an impressive technological feat, and would have been cool were it not for the fact that the other universe was populated by aliens straight out of Lovecraft's head.

[@daniels7907]

And the Shadow death cloud needed to completely envelop its target planet and generate missiles to blast down into the core. A lot of extra work for little return, as compared to being able to just point-and-shoot a planet and then move on to the next target. Also, since we're on the topic of ships. To hide their ships the Shadows buried them in the dirt like kids, or parked them on planets like Centauri Prime. To hide their fleet the Vorlons created an extradimensional pocket in hyperspace! And it was only discovered via luck and the use of their own technology! The Vorlons only use the jump gates as a matter of protocol. Even their small ships can form jump points. No big surprise. They *invented* the technology in the first place after all! Since the Shadows never used their anti-jump point weapon against the Vorlons (only against the Narn), we can assume it doesn't work on Vorlon-created jump points. Pound-for-pound, Vorlon ships come across as more formidable, and everyone was a *lot* more terrified when the Vorlons went on the offensive than they were even over the Shadows! Might have something to do with mystique. After all, go to Za'ha'dum and you will supposedly die (although Delenn, Ivanova and Lyta managed a flyby). But *nobody* ever returns from Vorlon *space*, much less reaches their homeworld, unless the Vorlons bring them there personally. That would hold true for a million years after the Shadow War, whereas Za'ha'dum was open for plunder until Lyta telepathically triggered its self-destruct mechanism. As for the stuff from the technomage novels, I don't regard it as canon because we never saw many of the more impressive feats from the novels onscreen. If the writers are to be believed, the Vorlons had a whole planet of barely-sentient super-telepath prototypes! It was only the Shadows themselves who claimed that the Vorlons were stagnant. But of course they would - they were ideologically opposed to them after all! All the evidence we saw indicated that the Shadows were no less stagnant. Especially since they were older than the Vorlons, but were at best at technological parity with them and a *lot* easier to hurt! In their discussion in "Into the Fire", when Morden refuses to remove the Shadow vessels from Centauri Prime even though a Vorlon planet killer is on the way, he makes it clear that he is betting that the Vorlons won't really destroy such a densely-populated planet, not that he believes the Shadows can repel the Vorlon attack. Londo observes shrewdly: "You're afraid! *They're* afraid!"

[@daniels7907]

Rulerzful There you go with the fanon again. It was *not* shown that the death cloud could phase in and out of hyperspace on its own. In "Into the Fire" the Shadow ships are seen pulling the cloud along in their wake. In "Call to Arms" the Drakh had to bring it in fighting their way through the defending fleet. They could not simply phase it in around the Earth. If they could have, they would have won. JMS has in fact bounced around as to whether or not the novels are canon, at times saying that some or all of them are or are not depending on his mood. Although, funny you should raise the canon point, because you are putting a lot of faith in the novels, but you refute what was shown on TV (e.g. that the death "cloud" was actually a huge scaffold structure, which accounts for its limited mobility). It itself was scary because most people instinctively fear the unknown more than the known. The Vorlon planet killers were unquestionably more compact, mobile and efficient. But also easier to comprehend because they were visibly just big ships. On the downside, it took multiple First One ships to destroy one. In contrast, a death cloud was destroyed at Earth by the Victory. As for the Eye, again it's novel, but not extraordinarily impressive. While it could scan throughout the galaxy (as could the Great Machine of Epsilon III), its telepathic influence was limited to Za'Ha'dum's immediate vicinity. Nor was it an effective enough defense to prevent the Shadows from being repeatedly driven off the planet (as stated by Lorien). We really don't see *anything* to indicate technological superiority on the part of the Shadows. Indeed, armed with telepaths and regular ships, the Younger Races were successfully able to face the Shadows. But *nobody* seemed to believe that the Vorlon advance could be stopped once they went on the move. Hence the Shadows desperately resorting to the hope that the Vorlons wouldn't have the stomach to destroy Centauri Prime even with their ships parked there! Other than the Vorlon's lack of inclination to get directly involved in things, there is nothing to suggest that they were less powerful or advanced than the Shadows. Indeed, it is telling that the Shadows opted to subvert Vorlon-created telepaths, rather than create their own (the Drakh apparently being unsuitable for some reason). Likewise, the Shadows seemed scary because they usually carried out hit-and-run attacks seemingly at random (kind of like Vikings). In stand-up fights where opponents were expecting them their performance was only average (again, like Vikings). The Vorlons were not at all subtle, but were regarded as being like a tsunami - unstoppable once they were in motion.

[@daniels7907]

Actually, there was. The scene clearly showed the death cloud coming along in the wake of several Shadow vessels. Which makes sense. If it actually is nanotechnology, it is doubtful that it would have independent phasing capability. Unless, as shown in "Call to Arms", it actually is some kind of structure which would include the necessary phasing systems. As I said, we *know* the death cloud cannot simply materialize out of hyperspace around a planet because it never did so. It always enveloped it in real space. Ditto the fleet of the Younger Races, who were easily enclosed since they had both Vorlons and Shadows all around them. It did not, however, incapacitate their ships entirely. This was why various ships were still able to maneuver in order to protect White Star 2 from missiles being fired from the cloud. The Shadows fought the Vorlons at Coriana VI because Sheriden sacrificed a White Star and its crew to give the Shadows false information to lure them there. Once they arrived (at the same time as the Vorlons) neither side wanted to be seen retreating. What could possibly be a worse argument against their ideology than that? Early on the Vorlons played it as though the Younger Races need to ally to fight the Shadows because they were still playing mentor. It was when they rolled out their planet killers that Sheriden realized that they had been lying about not being able to directly engage the Shadows. The *only* reason Za'ha'dum was never just destroyed was because Lorien was camping out inside of it, and the Vorlons would not want to blow up the planet with him inside! Otherwise, Lorien noted that the Shadows had been driven off multiple times, only to come back, also because he was there and they basically worshiped him. Again, not seeing any evidence of the Shadows possessing superior technology. *Comparable* technology in many ways perhaps. But not more advanced, despite being older than the Vorlons.

[@daniels7907]

Rulerzful We never see the death cloud actually *in* hyperspace. As I said, we *only* see it in normal space. Now, if it is a cloud of nanotechnology, by definition a vast number of small particles, then the Shadow vessels could simply release it like exhaust. That would account for why it appears trailing their ships. Perhaps the Drakh needed the scaffolding structure since they didn't have Shadow ships with which to deliver it? Regardless, there was no evidence presented onscreen that the death cloud could move through hyperspace on its own, or be deployed independently of the Shadows (or some other operator). Lorien had only *just* left Za'ha'dum, literally days earlier. The Vorlons were hardly likely to go rushing over there to blow it up even if they'd known he had left (there was no indication that they did). As Sheriden noted, both they and the Shadows still prioritized winning the obedience of the younger races over destroying each other. It was why he needed to lure them into *one* place for the final confrontation. The Shadows were no more inclined to try to fight their way to the Vorlon homeworld than the Vorlons were to directly attack Za'ha'dum. Neither planet was the *real* prize, the Younger Races were. The Shadows had been driven from Za'ha'dum repeatedly and it changed nothing about the conflict, making it a low-priority target (which Sheriden noticed). The Vorlon homeworld was just too well-defended to attack, so the Shadows didn't even bother to try. The Shadows *did*, however, clearly have more individual members of their race to spare. There was never more than one Vorlon on B5 at any time, whereas Morden *always* had two or three Shadows with him! It is likely that there *were* fewer Vorlons overall. Individually they were more powerful than Shadows, and could put pieces of themselves into other beings if they needed to go out snooping. What the Shadows were unprepared for was the scale of the Vorlon fleet. The Vorlons had historically gotten other races to fight for them while they called the shots (probably why the Walkers of Sigma 957 didn't like them very much). Now, they suddenly abandon all pretense of being a passive support mechanism to others and instead go on the warpath themselves. fielding ships *far* more powerful than they had ever revealed to anyone before. Even the Minbari were seemingly unfamiliar with their planet killers! Which implies they were not used during the last war. Whether the Vorlons held them back, or invented them during the interim, is unclear.

[@thedragon133]

"Understanding is a three-edged sword..." That is SO true.

[@differous01]

“Those that think all virtue is to be found in their own party principles push matters to extremes; they do not consider that disproportion destroys a state.” [Aristotle - Politics Book 5, Part IX]

[@ShellySummers]

I have been looking for this clip forever for a video i want to make thank you :)

[@Sargonarhes]

Done long before that. The Lensman series of books has two ancient aliens in a struggle for dominance of sorts. The Aresians which does end up helping the forces of civilization and humanity, and the Eddorians who were all about dominating all other lifeforms. The Aresians gave civilization the lens to those that were incorruptible and they became the Lensmen, civilizations saviors. But ultimately the Aresians manipulated humans for the top Lensman Kimbal Kinnison, a perfect lifeform/starchild.

[@kuryamtl]

Well, through the illusion of Sheridan's father, right before Kosh died, he said, when one gets old, one gets set in their ways, it was his time to go. you can expand that to the whole situation of the Vorlons and Shadows.

Pretty sure that was the point of that statement.

[@JamesTobiasStewart]

Yep, Kosh seemed to come to understand the point of this scene shortly before he died. He'd always been more committed to actually teaching the younger races than most Vorlons, but as he himself said before he died "it's time to let you fight this war your way." He resisted that revelation at first, but finally he was forced to admit that if he and his fellow Vorlons were gonna make the Younger Races fight the war, then it wasn't their place to tell them how.

[@charlesw5919]

It's unfortunate for the younger races that they got those two as "guardians" instead of Lorien and his people. Seriously, with "guardians" who will conduct genetic experiments on younger races, commit wholesale genocide when things don't go their way, and generally display utter disregard for sentient life, you don't really need a designated galactic "boogieman." The whole "forcing the younger races to choose between order and chaos" conflict is a false-dichotomy. Both order and chaos are necessary driving forces behind evolutionary process, you can't choose between order and chaos anymore than you can choose between wanting to have your arms or your legs. You kind of need them all.

[@patrickstivers7387]

We don't know that Lorien's people didn't do the same thing to the First Ones they encountered as they explored the galaxy. For all we know, the Vorlon/Shadow conflict is just the latest iteration of the "Elders" thinking they know what is best for the younger races.

[@celebrim1]

Patrick is likely correct. In one of the episodes, we see glimpses of the galaxy one million years into the future, and at that time, the humans and the mimbari have become the shadows and the vorlons - living in encounter suits so that the younger races won't recognize them as legendary beings, and as hinted, fighting with each other over million year old differences in ideology, and causing destruction, but presumably as with the shadows and vorlons, to much involved with each other to ever make an end of their conflict.

[@patrickstivers7387]

@@celebrim1 It's been a while since I've seen that episode but I don't remember it being pointed out that the same conflict was playing out all over again. In fact, it seemed like the "Ascended Beings" of that era were adamant about following Sheridan and Delenn's example of letting the Younger Races decide for themselves.

@@patrickstivers7387 It doesn't even really imply either of those, IMO. When the evolved human turns into energy before entering his encounter suit, he mulls over the long road of history and how now the 'children' (the younger races, humans, minbari, whatever) have truly taken their place amongst the stars and would be there to help guide the next generation(s) of sentient beings across the cosmos, yet pushing niether order or chaos, but something else in-between, the best of both. They'd learned from their own experiences that you can't force evolution, you can only offer it a helping hand, but one that must be willingly accepted.

[@philippes.9571]

@@patrickstivers7387 Indeed, there is not hint of a conflict like Vorlons/Shadows and we dont have any clue in this episode about Minbari evolution. This episode is an echo of the episode of season 1 with the first human reaching an ascended state. That human said that they will see again in one millions years.

[@mchance27]

I always get chills when the Vorlon says, "We are here."

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

@girlgarde The thing about the Shadows' ideals, and the Shadows themselves, is that the key to it lies in their own evolutionary history. You can see it just in their physical appearance alone, they're an insectoid race, and insects are incredibly brutal and creepy (from a common view on them) in comparison to other kinds of animals. So it makes sense that their ideals match that, progression through violence, evolution through conflict, survival of the fittest, etc. I like that about them. :]

[@geoffwilliams4478]

I had this kind of huge conflict about 10 years from ago. I had a mom mainly being my best friend, where I had a friend trying to be my mother. I felt so pulled by each side that they both could not see one way or another but when I made my own choices, I got spite from both of them. It was hard to maintain a relationship with both of them (the friend left for a while and my mother and I nearly renounced each other) afterwards but luckily the three of us, separately were able to find common ground.

[@girlgarde]

@InsurrectionistFungi For some reason though, I seem to think that since the Shadows are the polar opposite of the Vorlons, the Shadows just might be openly nurturing and caring towards their offspring and perhaps their servant races as well. In the B5 novels that cover Londo's time as Centauri Emperor, the Drakh who controlled Londo was nurturing to the keeper device that he had attached to Londo so perhaps the Shadows were the same way to the Drakh?

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

Anyone else notice that each race's planet killers were quite representative of their philosophies? The Vorlons' planet killer delivered swift, hard punishment, whereas the Shadows'was very brutal and in a way, more excruciating and painful. Heh, nice symmetry there.

[@OreadNYC]

It seems a bit ironic that Ivanova should be one of the people chosen to voice the argument of the Shadows (favoring Chaos) since it's fairly obvious from the show that Ivanova is someone with a very strong desire for Order or at least Reason...even though her efforts to find it appear to be thwarted far more often than not.

[@ayanithtalreign]

All of the characters that confront Delenn are proponents of Order or represent it: Ivanova is the rigid, fatalistic militarist that makes the rules because she's good at it and makes others follow them because she'll break them if they don't; Stephen is the scientist/physician who abhors conflict and wants everyone to be safe more than anything else; Lennier is the self-denying functionary with deep religious beliefs who always does the right thing; Marcus is the man with the strongest honor code, a human who is as much Minbari in soul as he is his own race; and, finally, Delenn herself, who believes in the rightness of Order for the right reasons and uncompromisingly stands against Chaos. They picked their targets well.

[@lunaticeagle3007]

@@ayanithtalreign But all of them had somthing they hide .. Ivannova is a Telepath , Stephen and his drug addiction , Lennier and his love for Delenn and Marcus his Death wish.

[@GreyDoofus88]

@@lunaticeagle3007 Each of them harboured their own dark secrets and innate desires. Something that the Shadows must have learned when Morden was on B5.

[@moviesrocks2]

this whole scene is just one mind trip. LOVE IT! Favorite episode ever! Watched it so many times

[@GarrisonHat]

I enjoyed how differing philosophies were symbolized in many different ways, not just the Shadows and Vorlons. Somewhere they both fell into the usual pattern of believing the other side stupid, pretentious, or even evil to the point of believing the other side didn't have the right to exist and believing their side to have 100 percent pure and noble intentions. And once the Shadows and Vorlons were out of the picture, the four major races worked to find their own way between order and chaos.

[@ChrisWilliams-zz1kt]

It just look like the soul edge and soul calibur at odds with one another

[@jeffman52001]

I also want to say that though the Shadows and Vorlons caused a lot of damage among the races, they did show us what we are capable of, good and evil. Captain Sheridan and Delenn convinced them that we can evolve without the Shadows and Vorlons's interference and Lorien also helped the Shadows and Vorlons convince them they need to go beyond the rim.

[@HorusHeresy1982]

I found the Shadow argument ironic "Why side with the old? Embrace the new." It amuses me that the Older race of the Shadows calls the younger race of Vorlon's the old.

[@tsm688]

the shadows tend to sleep for thousands of years at a time, the vorlons have always been here

[@NicholasBrakespear]

It's such a shame the sound quality on this pivotal episode is so muffled (at least it is in every version I've seen).

[@Ryo-sj8wn]

To put a good sided spin on it I see this like left brain verse right brain, objectivity, logic & rationality (order) verse emotionality, imagination & creativity (chaos). To live properly you need to have a balance of both.

[@megavide0]

*V* & *S* *Vorlons* & *Shadows* / *Vishnu* & *Shiva* ::: *Vishnu* (who takes various avatars as "the preserver, protector": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu) & *Shiva* (known as "The Destroyer": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva)

[@thedragon133]

@Tearvon well, technically, Lorien is the oldest of the first ones. Or he is a generation before the the First Ones, he does refer to them as his children. His race discovered them when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

@girlgarde Exactly, the Shadows weren't evil, and the Vorlons knew it full well. They became too wrapped up in ideology. It would've been interesting though, to see a Shadow representative who, like Kosh, actually cared about the younger races, or at least actually still cared about helping them grow. I think that may have been a missed opportunity, and it could've provided an interesting dynamic. :D I think that the Shadows/Vorlons would've at least had a mutual respect for each other, though.

[@GreyDoofus88]

Maybe the writers could have explored that possibility with John's wife Anna?

[@suchiuomizu]

@nesteph Or maybe that happened later, they would not be the last race to 'ascend' to becoming energy beings. The Vorlons did it too, and we have seen humanity will as well in 1,000,000 years (which according to Lyta is also when humanity will be ready to be allowed into Vorlon Space). It looks like it could be a technological advancement rather than evolution (obviously if it was evolution, it would not apply to Lorien).

[@Intranetusa]

Totalitarianism states that love order are intrinsically unstable for a reason - because order to the extreme does not work since it goes against mankind's inherent nature. People desire freedom and individuality, which is considered chaos in a totalitarian regime. An example of totalitarian order that works would be something like the Star Trek Borg-collective, where there is no individuality.

[@clairestark9024]

their's also an issue with their total unwillingness to tolerate minor deviantion being ironically destabalizing.

[@Gothic7876]

And anarchies are inherently unstable due to the lack of order. Humanities inherent nature is a mix of both, Structure and freedom

[@AmericanPoliceState]

@sunnchilde Originally when humans first went into space, they met the centauri which allowed them to do interstellar travel cheaply and quickly at the cost of a tax, eventually humans figured out how to build their own jump gates. and eventually jump drives for larger ships such as warships and large trading and mining vessels.

[@xyhmo]

I have to say both the Vorlons and the Shadows are pretty decent folks, even leaving when convinced by Sheridan. There was the nasty businnes with the planet killers, but things just got out of control for a while -- but lo and behold, even that contributed to progress in the end (as the Shadows might have predicted), though it could've gone badly. In any case, compare these old races with the strange and indifferent ancient beings in Lovecraft's mythology and you'll have to agree that these are pretty benevolent.

[@girlgarde]

Compared to the Thirdspace Aliens, they're decent races. I do think that each of them wanted to help the younger races but they let their dislike of each other's ideals affect their judgement and lead them to act stupid and obsessed with defeating each other. While their core intent wasn't evil, it's of no comfort to the younger races who got royally screwed over by their stupid feud.

[@daniels7907]

Well, most of the First Ones *are* strange and indifferent for the most part. Even the Vorlons and the Shadows, because immortality has dulled their ability to really see entire generations as anything more than fleeting moments in time. The problem was that they didn't know when the time had come to stop. The younger races had evolved far enough that they no longer needed external pressure to guide their progress. That's why the ideological aspect of their conflict came to the fore. Sheriden had it slightly wrong. They weren't parents fighting in front of the kids, they were parents who were still trying to run their kids' lives after they had grown up. Ironically, this had halted the evolutionary progress of the Vorlons and Shadows themselves, as they were too busy looking down at the younger races to look up towards their own evolutionary future.

[@sunnchilde]

***** I think you're right. But the First Ones are so ancient that they really had no choice but to look at the younger races AS infants. A million years before the humans or the Minbari were BiPEDAL, the Vorlons & Shadows had a galactic empires. It would be like us taking relationship advice from a little white rat. In another way, the First Ones were like a father dealing with his 25 year old daughter as if she were still eleven years old. As a parent, you are always going to feel that you "know best."

[@daniels7907]

sunnchilde Well, that's the mortality versus immortality problem. Eventually, mortal parents want/need to retire. Immortals never need to. So the Vorlons and the Shadows clung to their original task far longer than necessary because they were never feeling the weight of eons dragging them down. It's telling that even the Shadows themselves seemed to have ceased evolving, despite their philosophy.

[@sunnchilde]

Perhaps adversity really is the mother of invention. The Shadows were the oldest and strongest of the First Ones. When your power is infinite, when you have everything that you can possibly want, then you don't need anything else. Perhaps if they met a superior race like the ThirdSpace Aliens, the Shadows would begin to grow again, out of need.

[@freewilliam93]

This show is THE TRUTH. Very esoteric in an open way. This IS what the military industrial complex wants to believe think, besides wanting money. Thank god for Turner in the 90's. The woman is with chaos and male is with order. Curves and straight lines, the outer pillars of the tree of life and solomons temple.

[@Tripp1993]

Having watched the show, you are correct.

[@girlgarde]

@SgtHydra Yeah, the Minbari vs Shadows spat shown here was a battle of morals which ended with Delenn making the Shadows look like Nazis who wish to impose their ideas on everyone else. The Humans vs Vorlons spat in turn was a battle over free will where Sheridan called out the Vorlons on trying to impose their ideas onto everyone else and not caring about them which ended with him making the Vorlons look cold and uncaring towards the younger races.

[@suchiuomizu]

@jdreyn02 Incorrect. There is a reason Ulkesh (Kosh's replacement) and the remains of Kosh showed their true forms at the end (and why Kosh was so tired after being seen by so many while saving Sheridan earlier). It is very strongly implied, if not outright confirmed, that the angelic form is a telepathic illusion that they intentionally create.

[@thedragon133]

That's the trouble with doctrins. They are absolute and don't accept anything beside them.

[@nat51543]

This show taught me a lot look at our society now they make you choose between Left and right when Delen said it's best to not choose and walk away it's about ideology and only between the choices you give us that is no choice at all

[@Taospark]

At least in this scene, the Shadows were more honest about what they wanted - answering the question they always asked their partners.

[@dumaskhan]

honestly is pointless when it is the string the puppeteer uses to move the puppet.

[@brav0wing]

@J0N0614 It is also a religious debate, not only philosophical! This topic is not limited to just one venue of interest!

[@girlgarde]

@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah,i figured that it would make an interesting twist since it's shown that there are shades of grey amongst both the Vorlons AND the Shadows that the latter race would have SOME good things about them that punch holes in the "Shadows are evil incarnate" line of thought that the Vorlons put forth. I can even imagine the Shadows looking down on the Vorlons on how they treat their own servant races.

[@adamwu4565]

Another interesting thematic point is that the ultimate result of the Shadows and Vorlon’s actions often end up being the opposite of their stated ideology. By threatening the younger races the Shadows set the stage for those races to cooperate with each other even more and come together into even bigger ordered social structure. They helped the Centauri conquer the Narn, which reduced the number of major powers available to compete and fight. They helped Clarke establish a totalitarian regime on Earth. Meanwhile the Vorlons created telepaths, and in doing so triggered repeated episodes of massive social unrest in almost every race they made telepaths in, resulting in civil wars, disunity, intrigues, extermination of the telepath populations in several races, and a general increase in overall chaos. It highlights how both of them have lost sight of the original philosophies to some degree.

[@girlgarde]

@SetsunaNoroi Agreed. Both races were hurting the younger races with their stupid egos and desire to prove which of their ideals was superior. Still, I'd like to think that there were individuals amongst not just the Vorlons but the Shadows too who cared about the younger races and wanted the "my ideals are better then yours" crap to end but were blocked out by extremists who were obsessed with winning at all costs.

[@Brownshoe24]

Into the Fire: Season 4, Episode: 6

[@crazylarryjr]

When i saw this, i immediately saw the light side and dark side of the force (yes star wars). light side is order and structure and dark side was chaos and destruction. In order for one to exist the other must also exist. Either one taken to extremes (such as the Vorlons and Shadows) and you have nothing but destruction of everything. Both must co-exist for true progression and evolution

[@Kainlarsen]

You've missed the boat by a whole league, there. The point was that the Vorlon/Shadow conflict of ideology had grown so stale and meaningless *because* they had forgotten those virtues of each standpoint. Only their mythos as older, more advanced races kept the truth from being known by the younger ones until Sheridan and the others figured it out.

[@protorhinocerator142]

This was a defining moment for the end of the Shadow War and the pattern to follow afterward.

[@rizon72]

I liked this because it came out the Shadows are not really bad, nor are the Vorlons good.

[@Sargonarhes]

I would hope that it would, the anime movie of Lensman fell far short, B5's creator JMS has said he'd love to do the screen play for Lensman, but after seeing how John Carter of Mars turned out I doubt any one will touch a story that old and one that's been so heavily borrowed ideas from already.

[@thryce82]

the vorlon three edged sword line i think originates in the japanese mirror saying not 100% on that but fairly confident

[@michaelhviper]

@TheJboy88 Yeah, Kosh would never force them like his kindred in this video, If he was forcing them into things he wouldn't have helped Sheridan by bringing his proposal to his people of taking on the Shadows in the episode that Kosh was killed at the end. Maybe the Vorlons lost it because Kosh died and before that it was a long time that a Vorlon had died.

[@tsm688]

I think Kosh was playing interference between the Vorlons and the younger races. Him and Ulkesh might have been the only two to even see any, for a very long time. With Kosh out of the way, his more moderate policies were discarded

[@girlgarde]

@InsurrectionistFungi Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. It would have been very interesting to see a Shadow representative who cared about the younger races and wanted to help them evolve and grow. I can see him/her being openly caring and engaging in action to help end the Shadow Wars for good so the younger races could evolve and grow. If this rep survived the Shadow War though, I could even see him/her telling the Drakh that they had to leave but to continue their work in their place.......

[@JnEricsonx]

And somewhere, some people who would one day work at a company called Bioware got a idea!

[@meryatathagres1998]

Mass Effect was good, but not B5 good. And tbh, only the second Mass Effect was really a masterpiece.

[@sunnchilde]

@nesteph The Shadows don't need Jump Gates NOW, because they're very old and very powerful. But I bet they used to, as did Lorien's people.

[@Wolfen443]

Great scene, classic theme that is not often covered in the other shows, except Star Wars, maybe.

[@mecurian485]

Hmmm... is that what the original Vorlons looked like?

[@mobiusbelmont]

wow thanks, one of my favorite scenes in the whole series

[@colinmoore7460]

So, he got Lost In Space again.

[@jeffman52001]

@Cassadinegirlaz Liked hearing the Shadow speak, finally.

[@gooflydo]

@ScutigeraColeoptrata The shadows didn't enslave Centauri prime, That was the price Centauri Prime payed in order to win the war against the Narns. And Molari was asked/tempted to sell out his race to them. Also the vorlons where the 1st ones to use their planet killers.

[@girlgarde]

When the Shadows posing as Delenn told the real Delenn "You will fight because we tell you to fight!", I felt like saying "OR WHAT?! You'll kill us?! If I side with you, the Vorlons will kill me! If I side with them, YOU will kill me! Either way I'm dead so even if I die by choosing not to get involved, then at least I'll die free!". As for Sheridan, I like how he verbally hammered the Vorlons and called them out on how they've been treating everyone.

[@darthkarr]

@Fbueller129 because they all left..passing beyond the galaxys rim..the vorlons and shadows wwere left behind to "guard and shepard" the younger races, while i guess some of the other first ones stayed behind out of sentimental reasons, but chose not to interefere in the shadow/vorlon dispute over how to teach the next races to come

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

@girlgarde That's an interesting thought! I don't think that the Shadows would've been as harsh on the Drakh after they became strong enough to serve them faithfully. The Vorlons did no such thing with the Minbari, they treated them almost the same, just "gracing" them with their presence. The Shadows seemed more nurturing with their philosophy. Allow your "children" to fight it out, evolve with conflict and war, and those who emerge from it are rewarded, and so on.

[@brav0wing]

@Tearvon To quote the epiphany of G'kar: Does it matter who started it, since in the end everything will be destryed until there are no more races?

[@girlgarde]

Exactly. It doesn't matter which race started the Vorlon-Shadow feud, the race that didn't start it behaved as badly by resorting to the same tactics as the race that DID start it which caused a lot of death and suffering so both sides at equally at fault.

[@GreyDoofus88]

Note how Delenn holds her ground against the Shadows that move around her, whereas Sheridan is moving around the Vorlon who is standing firm.

[@jimdandytheboss]

As a Radical Centrist, I agree.

[@InsurrectionistFungi]

@jeffman52001 I think, that in their own way, the Shadows stayed more true to their ideology in the end. The Vorlons did too, but they just expected the younger races to stand by and do nothing, and be good little lapdogs or whatever. Or maybe I'm just overplaying the good of the Shadows and the bad of the Vorlons. :3

[@davidgroll-cook7125]

Deepness of thought this show gave us. Amazing

[@cyradon393]

I started watching this when i was about 3 or 4. Stuck with me all the way now, into my late twenties

[@jeffman52001]

When Captain Sheridan said to the Vorlons about that they had the technology to destroy Z'ha'dum, the reason I think the Vorlons didn't attack Z'ha'dum is cause of Lorien being there and it is out of respect for Lorien since Lorien was living on Z'ha'dum. Lorien was around when the Shadows and Vorlons were infant races.

[@suchiuomizu]

That contributed to it, but it was clear that Sheridan was right too. Neither the Vorlons or the Shadows wanted to kill the other, they wanted the other to be around to see themselves proven right.

[@callumprice1710]

I love the "you don't want to kill the messenger, you want to kill the message"

[@thedragon133]

It was their duty to nurture the younger races and then step aside, just like Lorien did. But they missed that moment because of their ideologies...

[@SirCraigius]

An interesting game. The only winning move is not to play.

[@therisinghope]

Sometimes it is even more important to know, that you are the order, in all your chaos.!

[@СергейНогинов-ж5е]

Понравился этот момент фильма.

[@ordelljones]

The defining moment of the series.

[@nesteph]

@sunnchilde nether lorien or the shadows require jumpgates, so the need came with vorlons.

[@dglt31072010]

JMS will go down as one of the greats along with Herbert, assimov, and Corey

[@SulliMike23]

Shepard should go through this when he met the Catalyst. Because this is exactly the conflict the Reapers represent. Order vs Chaos.

[@observer2484]

Absolutely, what the Reapers failed to see was they proved their own point. Organics creating synthetics and both distrust and misunderstanding ultimately leading into war that kills the creators of synthetics. Intelligence was created to preserve life from extinction at all cost and after data gathering and some thinking, it decided to start a war against its creators because `they were part of the problem`, what is basically doing same mistake other races made and starting mass murder in galactic scale. Leviathans weren´t blameless either, they treated Catalyst and treated it as little more than a tool and a slave. Also Leviathans enslaved other races and honestly only reason they cared about the problem was that their slaves were dieing and not being useful in death. Neither side spared one thought to the victims and consequences of their decisions or they never cared. All they cared about was their own benefit and their own view of the universe.

[@LightHawkAlchemist]

Isn't the main reason why the Vorlons didn't destroy Z'ha'dum was because Lorien was there?

[@thedragon133]

Nah, that was also a reason, but if they wiped out the shadows (if they could), they would never know who was right. Also, the Shadows would have retaliated and destroyed Vorlon Prime or whatever their homeworld is called.

[@TwiceStruck]

Or Bring The Full Wrath Of The Remaining First Ones On the Vorlon Empire......

[@suchiuomizu]

@@TwiceStruck With how few they were in numbers, I can't imagine the Vorlons feared them much. Sure they were impressive in the battle of Coriana 6 but that was all of them together against one ship, large as it was, while the Vorlons were also distracted by both the Shadow fleet and younger races who were both stronger with the help of the White Stars and no longer considering the Vorlons allies. Under other circumstances I suspect the Vorlons would have not have cared much about the other non-Shadow First Ones.

[@fieldy409]

@@suchiuomizu Maybe they didn't fear the First Ones but they did respect them.

[@mainmanbumfuzz8983]

for someone so obsessed with evolution, they never considered that morality itself is subject to evolution too.

[@adrianstone8541]

Choices,consequences and responsibilities.you will make decisions,you will make mistakes but have you the courage to own your responsibilities? B5 always was more grown up and showed morally ambiguous choices and what happened next.an excellent series ,a universe without heroes and villains just individuals who trued to make the least bad choice often not understanding the choices offered

[@pyrodiscoflash6115]

Fantastic sci-fi in storyline, in character development, and opposing forces, a lot of fun and could be revived , with some tweaking B5 could be integrated into a Trek universa at least a cross over , through a looking glass of course

[@girlgarde]

@SetsunaNoroi I'm aware of that. Both the Vorlons and the Shadows forgot that they were promoting their ideas to guide the younger races but they became obsessed with besting each other so they did things that harmed everyone else. I'm merely saying that the message the Vorlons gave was more ethical even if the Vorlons themselves acted as badly as the Shadows did in their methods. In this case, the message isn't discredited because the messenger was an asshole.

[@RonanMacQuarrie]

The Shadows and Vorlons are in reality reflections of opposite sides of the human condition, on one side anarchy, on the other order without mercy

[@sunnchilde]

@Fbueller129 Who left the Jump gates? Well, perhaps Lorien's people? Lorien's people were first, the Shadows were next, then the other First Ones.

[@TwiceStruck]

Vorlons did it Millions of Years ago...--

[@NickPayne]

Yeah but if Kosh were more akin to Ulkesh, there's no way Sheridan would've walked away from the confrontation in Interludes & Examinations. Kosh actually cared for the younger races... trouble was he was tied down by the ideology and directives of the rest of his race. He said of the Narn/Centauri: "They are a dying race, we should let them die". That was the Vorlon view... yet he helped G'Kar nonetheless.

[@Revkor]

His death rocked the Vorlons and that likely didn't help. but yeah Kosh was good

[@scrap.catastrophe]

@@Revkor we are all Kosh...

[@girlgarde]

Because he wanted to see the Narns become noble and caring once again. Even if the Narns are a dying race, there's no reason for them not to live out their remaining days with honor and use their skills and talents to aid others and leave behind a positive legacy on the universe around them. Everyone dies sooner or later but while we're here, it's up to us to aid the world around us and insure that after we die, the world we leave behind will be a better place because of our presence in it.