Orthodoxy and Wales - with Rowan Williams

"In hills or valleys / Or out on the deserts of the sea, / From Christ there is no escaping." So says an early Welsh Christian poem.
Rowan Williams, former Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican communion, sits down with Fr. Andrew at Ss. Theodore and Teilo Orthodox Church in Cardiff, Wales, to discuss his 60-year relationship with the Orthodox Church, including major figures such as Metr. Kallistos Ware and Archim. Barnabas (Burton). He also gives some pointers for pilgrims visiting ancient Christian sites in Wales, speaks of the peculiar character of Welsh Christianity, and answers Fr. Andrew's burning question -- what is it about dragons?
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[@frandrewstephendamick]

Some folks have contacted me about thoughts they have about Rowan Williams that are not what this interview is about, wondering why I didn't ask him about those other things instead in the short time I had. I hope you will listen to the actual content of the interview, but I'll respond to some of the concerns here, in case some are wondering in good faith. 1) What about when he "became a druid"? I'll let him speak for himself in this 2002 article: www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/05/religion.uk1 (Short answer: No, he didn't. He won a poetry contest and got an honorary title as an award in a ceremony that was Christian in character.) 2) Why didn't I challenge him about the heterodoxies of the Anglican communion? It might feel good to be confrontational, but I don't think one actually accomplishes much by that approach, and I also likely would not have gotten to have the good conversation that we did. These things are already well-known, in any event, and I have written about them myself in one of my books. 3) Why didn't I ask him why, after so many years of studying Orthodoxy, he hasn't become Orthodox? This would be a little less confrontational, but it is also the kind of personal question that I don't think is appropriate for a short interview. Ultimately, I chose to ask him the questions that I did because I thought they would appeal the most broadly to my audience, who would likely be interested in his relationship with prominent British Orthodox figures and, most of all, his vast knowledge of Welsh Christian history. I got to interview him for 25 minutes, and I'm quite happy with what he shared. I hope it is edifying to you, too. Thanks for watching!

[@thomascurry4762]

I don't understand why some Christians look for a fight with other Christians by looking for differences. I pray for the day when although we may disagree on theological matters, we can focus on what we all have in common as Baptized members of the Body of Christ. Thank you, Fr. Andrew, for not taking the bait and showing us an example of how we should treat others Christians with whom we have theological disagreements.

[@parsaeye]

​​​@@thomascurry4762This combative attitude and sense of superiority is very common amongst the Orthodox believers, as can be seen in these pages. It's a disturbing reactionary attitude that is devoid of Christian love which is one of true Christianity's hallmarks.

[@m0rgentraum]

I thought your questions were excellent and made for a very interesting interview!

[@danielfranzen9511]

Fr. Stephen, as a fellow Orthodox priest and admirer of Dr./Fr. Williams, thank you for your thoughtful and interesting interview.

[@jajohnson7809]

As a Welsh descended Orthodox American, visiting the holy places in Wales and all of Great Britain would be the dream of a lifetime. I have a deep love of St. Melangell.

[@joachim847]

Would you kindly point me toward resources? My son is somewhat Welsh on his mom's side, and I want to encourage him to explore the tradition 😊

[@ArchangelIcon]

I live about 20 miles from the church and relics of St Melangell. It's a beautiful valley where she lived.

[@lindaphillips4646]

I also am a convert with some Welsh background.. On our last trip to the UK in 2005, my husband and i took a day trip to Cardiff.. Liked going there very much but we knew nothing about the Orthodox tradition there although we knew that it had most definitely existed. I have only known until now of St. David of Wales.. Am happy to learn about more saints..☦📿💝📿☦ May your hopes come true. Please remember us with one of your candles if you ever get there. The Lord will know our names..☦📿💝📿☦

[@MrZadokthePriest]

""Britain will only become Orthodox when she once again begins to venerate her saints." - Arsenios of Paros" What a pleasure to listen to Archbishop Williams and hear his reverence for the Greek Fathers, the Welsh saints and holy places, and the monastic tradition. Thank you for this conversation.

[@brianfrederick9799]

There’s a love for Orthodoxy within Anglicanism that I noticed when I was Anglican.

[@feeble_stirrings]

A lovely conversation. I admit, it's difficult to understand someone as clearly devout and deeply studied in Church history and Orthodoxy in particular, not seeing enough to enter the Church. I don't mean that as a judgment or criticism. I often wrestle with the questions about why some are captured at their first encounter and some, while respecting - even deeply - our Tradition are content to remain outside - admiring from a distance. Many don't have even the slightest inclination to investigate. The heart is a mysterious thing.

[@minui8758]

I think the answer is probably ancestral and pastoral. As the video addresses the sacred sites of Wales are now Anglican and the largest group of Christian people when Rowan sought ordination were Anglicans by far. I know plenty of holy Anglican clergymen who have a vast love of both the Roman and Orthodox traditions but can’t quite separate themselves from the national church. For the most cynical and careerist it’s the fact it’s a state church that offers a post in parliament if you’re successful or they can’t accept stringent discipline… I certainly don’t think Rowan is that! There are lots of possible answers but the specific UK context must be remembered

[@nonameronin1]

Being convinced of the beauty and truth of your neighbor's tradition does not mean you have to abandon your own tradition to follow after his.

[@ethanfreeland2510]

It’s not a “tradition” it’s the literal body of Christ, it’s THE church

[@nonameronin1]

@@ethanfreeland2510 Sure, that's exactly what they believe about themselves. The Roman Catholics and Anglicans believe the same about their own Communions. But what exactly are the Orthodox doing to demonstrate the correctness of their claim? Causing more schisms and helping to wage wars on their fellow Christians? With the recent split between the Russians and Greeks it hardly feels like there's such a thing as Eastern Orthodoxy anymore, just a bunch of old bishops bickering.

[@Havoc2317]

I celebrated the feast of all saints with you in Cardiff on Sunday and attended your talk in the evening. The parish of St. Teilo’s is my parish. I didn’t get a chance to thank you after your lecture but I want to thank you personally for your orthodoxy and heterodoxy podcast and for your work on lord of spirits. Both podcasts were instrumental in helping me to discern orthodoxy and start my life in it. I was received by Fr. Jacob into the church last December. Glory to God, and thank you for all you’ve done and continue to do.

[@Triplewing]

Our parish heard that you were in Wales, Father, we went on a pilgrimage from Shrewsbury to Saint Seiriols well in North Wales over the weekend, shame we couldn't have bumped into you!

[@marcussmall782]

I used to visit St Seiriol's well on Ynys Mon a lot when I was studying at University in Bangor, it's a wonderful place.

[@sgtshdfg]

I like your KZbin channel format. An interesting mix, often unexpected topics that produce a lot of conversations. Keep it up!

[@saintedward318]

Father Stephen, this was very interesting and informative. Thank you!

[@thomasewatt]

As a former anglican convert I hope Mr. Williams becomes Orthodox

[@NH-zi4jr]

I went from orthodox to Anglican.

[@TalkShowKelly]

@@NH-zi4jrwhy?

[@Pop-wn3il]

Mr ? Williams….rude

[@edwinm-m5008]

This interview is a real treat Father! God grant you and Dr. Williams many years ago

[@kurtbansag935]

Thank you for this talk very edifying.

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

The story of the lady hermit saving the rabbit is so deeply British. I think pity for nonhuman lives is a hallmark of the British soul deeply impressed in all the best parts of their culture.

[@darlenegriffith6186]

Fr. Andrew - Thank you so much for this interview! Wales sounds like a fascinating place to visit.

[@terrytzaneros8007]

G☦️D Grant His Emeritus Beatitude Rowan Cantuar Many Years 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿❤️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

[@jeremyfirth]

Rowan Williams' series of lectures on the Sayings of the Desert Fathers is an absolute treasure, not to mention his books, of course.

[@SamDiMento]

Rowan Williams is one of the good ones. I always had admiration for him when he was at the helm of the C of E (not an easy job, I assume). He seems to be very Christ-centered.

[@lindaphillips4646]

My husband and i were in Oxford at a conference in 2005. We stayed at the college where that famous painting, of Jesus knocking at the door, is displayed in a room off to the side of the nave of the beautiful college church there. I walked over to see it one day and then i sat down in the back to listen to the organist practicing.. I saw a book about praying with icons by Archbishop Williams and sat there and read it as i listened to the organ. Later i went to one of those famous local bookstores and bought a copy of it..i may have brought his other book on the same topic then as well. I don't remember now. One book is about praying before an icon of Jesus.. The other is about praying before an icon of the Virgin Mary.. Just remembering that time.. ☦📿💝📿☦

[@eglaham]

It would have been interesting to learn why he has not come to the Church given his purported affinity.

[@silveriorebelo2920]

he is very far from Orthodoxy

[@Magnulus76]

Williams is an Anglo-Catholic, and fairly liberal. While he can appreciate the early Church and patristics, Eastern Orthodoxy wouldn't be a good fit for him. He also subscribes to some form of the Branch Theory, as do most Anglo-Catholics.

[@lindaphillips4646]

This was a truly lovely interview.. What a joy to stop and be calm and just listen and watch.. Thank you both for making this possible.. I could not hear some of the names very well.. Who is the monastic spoken about at 15:00 or a bit before? Looking forward to the other interviews from Wales.. Father, i am deeply grateful that you decided to take this pilgrimage and take us with you. ☦📿💝📿☦

[@frandrewstephendamick]

The abbot mentioned is Faustus of Riez.

[@lindaphillips4646]

​@@frandrewstephendamickthank you. Another name that this frmr prtnst didn't know. The nun, a former Anglican, at our Russian Orthodox church, once told me that she was trying to collect icons of every Orthodox saint in the British Isles. I just realized that i must send this to her, as i already have quite a few others.. Thank you. A great blessing..

[@rossyrossross]

It was a great privilege to speak with you, Fr. Damick. I sincerely hope that The Lord will provide you and your family the opportunity to do the same in Scotland as you have in Wales. Saint Gabriel's will be waiting to host! God bless and thank you again for your time & contributions. Ross/Enda.

[@emmaaustin123]

English, Welsh, Slavonic, Latin and Greek I wonder how many more languages Rowan Williams speaks.

[@annestjohn4017]

He learnt Russian to could read Dostoevsky in the original language!

[@mitchrivers9737]

Very fun interview. Can’t wait to hear more about your pilgrimage when you get back.

[@Jeem196]

Great video, thank you for the insights, Fr

[@anya7014]

POG

[@sivanadesireeholler7727]

I named my second daughter after a welsh saint: Saint Endelyn. I love the saint and the name is gorgeous, but I get mixed reactions sometimes. Also It's a little hard to explain to non orthodox people. One of the coolest things about her is that she was the god-daughter of king arthur, but apparently people just tend to think I'm a little weird when I say that

[@London-Lad]

Our last true archbishop

[@MrCharlieC23]

How can you be a scholar of Orthodoxy and stay Anglican? 🥴

[@Burgermeister1836]

Anglicans think they can believe anything and still be Anglican.

[@user-dx9nr1jm9c]

By believing that the two communions are both members of the one Body of Christ.

[@PaulSmall422]

@@user-dx9nr1jm9c How one maintains this seems impossible: if they were they would be in communion.

[@merecatholicity]

@@PaulSmall422 As an Anglo-Catholic with a deep love for Orthodoxy, it's not as difficult as you may think. We would understand the oneness of the Church to be primarily through sacramental realities, not jurisdictional ones. Thus, both Anglicans and Orthodox are part of the same Church because of their sacramental life, even if their jurisdictional unity is still impaired at the moment.

[@PaulSmall422]

@@merecatholicity I appreciate the point you're trying to make but, believe me, the foundation of the two faiths is like a mirror image, of which Anglicanism is the reverse. I know this. I am a retired Anglo-Catholic priest who served at Anglican altars for 25 years. And while Anglicanism has a simulacrum of episcopal unity through diversity, there is no Magisterium and no liturgical or doctrinal discipline. I would still be Anglican if I thought otherwise. DO I say there is no salvation in Anglicanism? Above my pay grade. But the differences are fundamental and one must convert to the other. One can suggest that as ABP Williams does, that Anglicans looked to the East (sorry Doobies) as well as the West, but that look was not thoroughgoing.

[@ceh5526]

Beautiful - thank you

[@Ettoredipugnar]

Bravo Fr. Andrew !

[@dimitriosvlissides5781]

Η Αγία Τριας να σας δεινή δύναμη και Φώτιση

[@lauragiles5193]

Absolutely loved this. I have a slim volume at home written by an Orthodox priest who came to Ireland to be the pastor of a small Orthodox community. As he delved into the history of the Irish church and the experience of living with the Irish he was surprised to discover the many similar roots as Rowan Williams described through the monastic traditions that link in with Orthodox traditions and understandings. The west of Ireland had monks living their that came directly from Egyptian communities. A quote "Early Christian writings are clear that John Cassian (360-435), the noted ascetic and theological writer, made a tour of the monasteries of Palestine and Egypt and brought that spirituality back to the South of Gaul. The monastery he founded at Marseille had a rule of life modelled on the Coptic, and its influence spread northwards. Not far away, on the island of Lérins (Lerinum), off Cannes, St Honoratus founded a monastery c.400 which followed the Egyptian rule until the introduction of the Benedictine rule in the 6th century. It is held by some that St Patrick of Ireland came to Lérins and learned Coptic spirituality and practice. Certainly Patrick quotes from Coptic sources in his Confessio." BTW I was at the monastery of St. Honoratus in France. Another worthy pilgrimage.

[@davefitzgerald5334]

The Orthodox Christians are every bit equal and totally acceptable as the Catholic Christians. We are all part of the Universal Church. We should strive for unity. I like the Eucharist under both species. That is following the teaching of the Last Supper EXACTLY as Jesus taught . " Take and eat, this is My body. Take and drink, this is My blood. " I don't understand the Catholic teaching of Concomitance. God bless you.

[@bman5257]

If by concomitance you mean that the Body Blood Soul and Divinity are present for both species, then that’s standard Cyrillian Eucharistic theology accepted by both Catholics and Orthodox. “Further, that in every part, or the smallest division of the transmuted bread and wine there is not a part of the Body and Blood of the Lord - for to say so were blasphemous and wicked - but the entire whole Lord Christ substantially, that is, with His Soul and Divinity, or perfect God and perfect man.” Decree 17, Confession of Dositheus, Pan-Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem

[@spiderb3367]

The gap between him and welby is an abysmal chasm

[@manwe254]

Whales*

[@hz3917]

😂

[@ThisCharmingBat]

Cymru!

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

you refer to the RIGHT REVEREND Dr Williams as DOCTOR but not REVEREND or FATHER???? he is a priest. it strikes me as odd

[@Phlebas9202]

Standard Orthodox behaviour. Edit. Apologies to Fr. Damick who did his due diligence below.

[@frandrewstephendamick]

I asked a friend of his beforehand what was appropriate in his case, and he said this worked fine. I've noticed the same approach used in the UK for other retired Anglican bishops, many of whom are even just referred to by their names without any titles at all. Anyway, I hope the actual content of our discussion was of interest to you.

[@HenryLeslieGraham]

@@frandrewstephendamick thanks Father Damick. if thats what you were instructed to do, then I cannot fault you for doing so. My apologies dear Father for assuming you were being rude when you were not. Perhaps then the fault lies with some Anglican Clergy who for a multiplicity of reasons (odd ones no doubt) eschew titles. thank you for taking the time to clarify this point. I did (in fact) enjoy the whole discussion!

[@stuckmannen3876]

Yeah, there is 'ethnic pitfalls', still, race is not nothing. :)