Ben, review the F model again using a line that is applicable to the rod then report back tobus with your results.
@Tridentflyfishing7 ай бұрын
We've cast the F with lighter lines - as I mentioned in the video, it's what I would use for that rod. Switching lines while testing reveals less about the intrinsic qualities of the rod. I've gotten really good at evaluating rods with our test set of lines, so I can tell you a lot about a rod with an MPX, but if I put a Triangle taper on the rod (which might be the more appropriate line to fish with), I won't be able to tell you as much about the taper because we've introduced another variable into the equation. If you put a lighter line on the F, it will feel more like the D, which is way less interesting and useful than having a second, softer taper that suits different strokes and fishing situations.
@casperd63887 ай бұрын
@@Tridentflyfishing what rewiev on your Channel should i study if i search distance casting (5 or 6 weight) more models are prefered
@ryanstines97487 ай бұрын
The difference, Ben, is that when you are testing one thousand one hundred dollar rods - you treat the rod and line as a system; meaning they work together to establish peak performance. Most people reading this understand the AFTMA standards. Perspective buyers, IMHO, should be leery of what you IMAGINE an F MIGHT cast like would you have actually used a more suitable line - despite your familiarity with the MPX. You shouldn’t need an MPX to tell you how a rod is tapered and its level of stiffness in different spots along the blank. Above you said you cast it with other lines, but in the video you recommend other lines, but don’t say or even infer that you’ve actually tried the other lines. And, again, you show us casting with MPX AND ONLY report on how it “clunkily” casts with MPX. Buyers are repeatedly telling you that if they spend that much at your shop, they would like to hear with as much detail as possible how well it casts with a specific line. Lastly, were you to take a more scientific method approach (as you’re referencing with variables), the scientific method starts with a problem and a testable question. As such, you’re looking to inform your buyers of the absolute peak performance of a specific rod/line system when the buyer spends $1,100. Remember the saying about the customers being right, maybe consider being more open-minded and doing what they’re asking. That’s customer service. I’ve bought from you before and I wish your business well. Please take this as constructive criticism.
@ryanstines97487 ай бұрын
“The F feels a little bit clunky with the MPX.” Well, of course it does. You’re not controlling a variable by casting both rods using the same line, as the F definitely wasn’t designed for MPX. Perhaps consider using an appropriate line for each rod in the future, as others have continued to comment in your videos over the years. Thanks for any consideration.
@stevenagy53537 ай бұрын
I was gonna say the same thing. It’s odd to me that “true to line casting” is mentioned like it’s something odd only a few people may want to do. Line choice can make or break a rod IMO.
@mikedunn52507 ай бұрын
I own a H2 5wt. I will never part with it, and might sleep with it if not being a bit kinky. Big fan of Orvis is so many ways. However, that white butt section is degrading to the appearance. I believe it is there for marketing purposes only. Looking across a river and seeing that white and you know it's a Helios.
@mojeena12 ай бұрын
H2 5wt owner as well... the feeling is mutual
@bkrred76387 ай бұрын
Accuracy comes from mastering your skill not buying a $1200 fly rod
@spearfisherman30823 күн бұрын
It can help.
@twill1437 ай бұрын
Why would you bother reviewing the F with MPX? Nobody would ever use that line on that rod.
@Dream-season7 ай бұрын
That white logo is atrocious… I’m sneaky glad they went back to it so I’m not tempted to buy one
@scott30655 ай бұрын
🤭
@44925737 ай бұрын
They are a great product I’m sure and Orvis backs their products. But when I look at it. It’s got no soul. I donno. Just looks cheap, cold. I know it’s not. But honestly looks cheap. No malicious intent. If it’s anything like the 3D , then people should buy one line size down. You want this rod in a 5wt , get a 4wt and it will perform like a 5wt. My 3D Blue Label has allot of power for a 5wt. Wish back in the day I bought the 4wt.
@tomwiggins12257 ай бұрын
A rod this expensive should not only look like a brand new Porsche, it should handle like one too with zero compromises.
@larryh95257 ай бұрын
Over the weekend, I had a chance to cast the H4 8D compared to the Hardy Marksman Z 890-4. With the Orvis, I could make longer casts with better power and control. However, at 20% more than the Hardy, I'd be buying the Hardy, if I were buying a new rod. Since I had the chance, I compared both to the H3 8F. The Hardy was much closer to my H3, meaning it had more feel, but wasn't quite as smooth. I found that for longer casts, say 70', the H4D had more power and control than the H3. What struck me as I looked at the rod compared to the other high-end rods in the shop was that the Orvis looked like a lower-cost production rod, so the $1,200 price seemed high. Note: All three rods were cast with the same Cortland saltwater line.
@richardgill94847 ай бұрын
I have an 843 H3F and absolutely love the way it casts. Every time I cast that rod it makes me smile, with one exception, how it looks. That grey spacer is just the most crap thing I've seen on any fly rod and coupled with the dull grey blank it produces a rod I simply don't want to look at. I was hoping for something of a renaissance with the H4, but it would seem that aesthetics don't count for much at Orvis HQ. Perhaps I'm just getting old.😁
@dankochanek80567 ай бұрын
Love my white Orvis 3H & 3F. Color does not affect my casting at all. And since I'm not a professional, even my Recon casts awesome!!
@profpigeon54417 ай бұрын
love my 3d as well, I did get a blue one :)
@MrFunkyko6 ай бұрын
Debating trying to find one on closeout!
@mkendle877 ай бұрын
I cast a 486 F today with an airflo tactical trout taper. It was a pretty good match. A couple things that stood out to me was the blank recovery and stability. There was really no need to alter the casting cadence or power from a short cast to a long one as well. Also cast the 890 D with SA general salt water taper and noticed the same qualities. Seemed like good rods. That being said neither made me “giggle”. I’m a sage guy though so what do I know 🤷♂️.
@stephenlazarionok70225 ай бұрын
Looking for a Scott Session review!
@awnik992 ай бұрын
I dont understand how people can be so butthurt about something as trivial as color of the logo😂
@TheChrisfleury17 ай бұрын
Lost all give a shit when you did a review with wrong line while saying you knew it was wrong line
@slhibbs5 ай бұрын
These are made on mass not to order. Carbon in not as expensive as you think, nore are the resains. Why are these so expensive. Its because wages have gone up cost of living has also increased and there is a lot of good competition out there, even with rods coming from the middle east. How long can company's like Orvis, Sage and other American company's build in the USA before price,s get out of hand and become unaffordable. This is the way the industry is going as there is only a limited market for these top end rods. You only have to look at Hardy as all off there rods now come from Asia and they must be doing something right as there top end rods are selling as well as Orvis, Sage etc. food for thought shame we have to move aboard, but it will happen.
@robertprestwood30937 ай бұрын
definitely not a fan of the white label
@TheChrisfleury17 ай бұрын
yeah makes you cast worse
@rangerwhite51657 ай бұрын
Why, oh why did they stick with that logo. It looks like something for the blind.😟🙁
@rangerwhite51657 ай бұрын
Free Labrador with every rod!!😂
@berndziesche97707 ай бұрын
"The H4F is more of a true to line weight rod." Most fly lines on the market (according to my own over 300 measurements during the past 15 years) are not true to line weight, but violate AFFTA by underlabeling (more weight for the line than labeled on the package). So the new Helios H4F does not fit well with all these fly lines on the market. Is that what you are saying? Kind regards Bernd
@bradtucker59577 ай бұрын
Even though I have one $800 rod, I don't think I'll ever spend that kind of money again. The $300-$500 price point rods are just too good. I'm the biggest variable in my casting, not the rod. All that said, if I were going to spend over $1000 on a rod, I'd expect performance as well as aesthetics. And that big white label just screams mass manufacturing. And their reason for dropping the hook keeper is indeed lame. For that kind of money, I'd want everything I'm looking for in a rod, not to make compromises.
@MrAmarbayasgalan21 күн бұрын
Once buy 1000 rod, always use 1000. Sell old half price and add 500. Now you have new series 1000 rod by 500$ xaxaxa
@robbannilsson2126 ай бұрын
This orvis Rod costs 1600 dollars in sweden 😂😅
@UrMumSaysHiWTАй бұрын
Same in Norway, could get two Guideline NT11s for that price with reels and lines
@jasonnye14363 ай бұрын
I casted a 7wt Helios D and a TFO Axiom II-X. I took home the Axiom II-X. It casted further (dumped the entire line) and more accurately for me. You even get recoil guides with the TFO. I don't like the single locking reel seat on the Helios, I prefer the double locking seat. For $1098? I'll pass.
@kansasscout43227 ай бұрын
Why would you even put an MPX on the F? Makes no sense, especially after saying it needed a true to line wt
@kansasscout43227 ай бұрын
The F review was very unfair.
@Tridentflyfishing7 ай бұрын
We cast rods with the same line so that there's consistency across tests.
@mountainstream13227 ай бұрын
That "consistancy" will inevitably make some rods perform not to their true potential. A certain Rod may even shine beyond belief with the right match of line. Some outfitters try several lines in order to find that match, something regular Joe can't do easily.
@kansasscout43227 ай бұрын
@@Tridentflyfishing irrational.
@brooktroutangler59177 ай бұрын
Things that make you go hmmmmmm @@Tridentflyfishing
@ryantherock76647 ай бұрын
I don’t think much new tech went into this rod.I reckon it’s very close to the H3.If you want a classy,world class rod get the Scott Centric.There is little NOT to like about the Centric.
@cameronenright99477 ай бұрын
You haven’t had to deal with Scott’s service department have you?
@ryantherock76647 ай бұрын
no@@cameronenright9947 nope is it bad?
@christopherrosser33647 ай бұрын
The Centric is by far the best rod I’ve used and is a thing of beauty
@chrism11577 ай бұрын
I'll start by saying I'm an orvis fan. I've owned 7 or 8 recons and helios rods over the years. The H2 was a huge leap in tech and performance. The H3 brought the ultra high tech and performance. I just don't know that the H4 is bringing that much more to the game. It may just be that we're at the pinnacle of performance and we need a new technology or material to come in and change the game. I think it's a hard sell to if you're already an H3 owner.
@larryh95257 ай бұрын
I agree. I watched the Orvis (corporate) video that Trident emailed this morning and I have no doubt that the rod is evolutionary. However, how many of us can justify the added cost for an incremental improvement if we're not fishing at the extreme of the current H3. I think the remaining H3s in inventory will fly off the shelves today. While I appreciate that engineers don't think about the point of diminishing returns, those of us who write the check tend to be aware of that concept. I'm certain that other manufacturers are thrilled with the new Orvis pricing. Also, this new pricing opens the door for a hefty Recon price increase.
@chrism11577 ай бұрын
@@larryh9525 The Recon is the hidden gem in the lineup. From an action standpoint, I feel that it sits right between H3D and H3F. So for most angler's, it's almost a better choice if you're only going to own one 5wt or one 8wt.
@pickledud77037 ай бұрын
@@chrism1157I owned one of the original Recons in 5wt and hated it. It was as thick in the blank as my 8wt Meridian and lackef feedback. I could punch a line a long way with concentration but I just didn't find it enjoyable to use. Sold it for a Hardy Zephrus which I felt was a much better rod.
@GisleNesbakk7 ай бұрын
The best thing aboute the new 4d is they are selling 3d with a big discount
@SuperBee0397 ай бұрын
AGREED! Makes that white label thing less of a problem in my mind. I’m finding the 3F/D right at $400 now. I’ll take that price all day long….sold.
@scott30655 ай бұрын
👍😁
@richardgill94847 ай бұрын
Thanks Ben. I'm looking forward to the 9 foot 8 weight review as I have a 908 Helios 2 Covert (We all know it isn't really an H2, don't we) and when I put it up against the H3D and H3F both myself and the local Orvis Staff preferred the Covert. So it'll be interesting to see how the Helios 4 908 compares. As for the price tag...? I think that going over the £1K price point is hard to swallow for a fly rod, especially when you look at the shorter models.
@stevehendrick34547 ай бұрын
Ben, always a great review! I have a 3D 8wt and love it, could care less about the white. Looking to get a 7 wt and am looking for your opinion. Looking at this rod, a Marksman Z and a Winston air 2 salt. I can’t cast them all at the same time due to availability around me. Also, what are your thoughts on the 8’5” 4D. I will be using this in Florida but also throwing sink line streamer fishing in Michigan rivers. I will cast them, but do appreciate your opinion. Thx for your time.
@Scottttyboy2 ай бұрын
Surprised people really care about the small white label on the rod, it’s a great talking point when you see anyone fishing it, such smart marketing tactic for orvis.
@caseycravens70624 ай бұрын
The white label is the dumbest thing in modern fly fishing history. Don't wave it at large wild browns and not expect them to bugger off.
@BVDsGoneFishing4 ай бұрын
It's all marketing. The giveaway is claiming it's 4X more accurate than the last version.
@billkeenum13037 ай бұрын
The white label is just not appealing in any way shape or form... distractingly ugly. As for the price, I don't think there is a rod mad that is worth 1K or more. Having said that, I own 3 Scott Centric and 3 Sage rods, X & ESN, and all of those rods are right at the 1K mark. NONE are worth the $$$ paid. You just have to know that rods with a lifetime replacement guarantee, when purchased, you've paid for at least 2 rods and leaving the store with 1.
@springteen37437 ай бұрын
This new rod has no value for customers, not even if the price was 800 usd. Great marketing price tag on the butt section but no thank you. 😂
@davincifpv39837 ай бұрын
If only they could get rid of that white paint color...
@bradsherrick65757 ай бұрын
If I am spending 1000 bucks or more for a fly rod, which I won’t, it better look like a Porsche. That thing looks like a Yugo no class. No style. This latest and greatest bull crap is getting out of hand.
@ibookje7 ай бұрын
Haha, I love this
@Blipp6197 ай бұрын
7 damn years....and they give us the same rod....EXACTLY the same rod as far as appearance. I'd imagine ANYONE who has a few H3's would want something to differentiate....big..BIG miss. I mean, they're just ugly and my time with the H3D left me with the feeling that it felt "cheap". These appear to suffer the same virus. Is Sean designing the aesthetics of these rods? If so, he needs help because if the 5 looks like this people will likely lose their shit.
Reading the comments section has been such an interesting experience. Most fly anglers seem to be more interested in the looks rather than performance of their rods. As a marketing expert, I have to congratulate Orvis for such a bold and controversial move with that white color patch and their decision to stick with it in H4, despite the criticism. That sort of boldness is rarely seen this days, especially with big companies who tend to "play it safe", trying to please everyone. The fact that anglers TALK about that white patch THIS much is a testament that Orvis' strategy works. As somebody here has said, when you see it on the water from a far, you know that that particular angler has some serious money to spend on a rod. Same thing happened in photography when Canon started coloring their premium "L" series lenses in white. Brilliant.
@davidball50024 ай бұрын
You sound like the same “marketing expert” that Bud Lite used.
@airpaprika4 ай бұрын
@@davidball5002 Well, one of the first things you learn in this business is that everybody is a marketing expert.
@PaulKing-h9m3 ай бұрын
😆😆
@damonm75412 ай бұрын
Most fly anglers are far better at judging aesthetics than casting.
@walshmikool7 ай бұрын
what reel and what size were you using in the video?
@frederik75117 ай бұрын
I own a couple Orvis rods imcluding the 3D but Im gonna say Im ashamed now to be an Orvis owner, this is just ridiculously expensive and not what flyfishing is supposed to be. I know its top shelf stuff but come on man its getting ridiculous. Im never getting this or any other Orvis rod ever again.
@allendks457 ай бұрын
Every year it's the latest and greatest rod from 'x' brand. An expensive tool in the hands of a poor professional will never make that individual better at what they do. Own just about every $1k and up fly rod there is. I'll match a $200 Temple Fork against any of the expensive rods I own.
@mcraigb15 ай бұрын
The White label sadly is a step back for Orvis, they seem to have forgotten performance is where it counts, not pandering to the "In Crowd" who spend more time talking about themselves, ie. what need is there for "The Cool Factor" fish don't bit on that ......
@intoflyfishing7 ай бұрын
Another great review Ben. We're hoping to get these in this quarter as well. Nicely done. (I much prefer the other colors over the white... but it's Orvis branding and recog. I'm sure)
@shencatteau74297 ай бұрын
Glad I picked up the 3s for $600. No hook keeper on these either which is always a nice option to have in the more premium rods imo.
@glenndotter50653 ай бұрын
Ridiculously expensive!
@DC-uz1my6 ай бұрын
If Orvis would add cosmetic character like my beloved Scott Rods I believe they would have more people take a look. For this price there should not be a printed label covered in epoxy and the thread wraps should be done nicer as well. The rod has no soul. I’ve casted every Helios since the 1st and they are nice rods but lack fit and finish.
@RNSOutdoors7 ай бұрын
The white above the grip is so god damned pretentious. It’s the Tesla of fly rods. Look at me and how rich and awesome I am.
@roberttucker95366 ай бұрын
I’m going to Greenland after arctic char , I’ve got a sage r8 6964 but was looking for a 5 weight, it’s fishing streamers and floating flies how does the 9.6 #5 Helios compare to the sage r8 5964 for that type of fishing
@komando83657 ай бұрын
Nope. No angler anywhere in the world needs to spend this much money on a rod. I don't care what application.
@casperd63887 ай бұрын
Agree 1000% more than insane the brands goin that Way .
@bkrred76387 ай бұрын
I agree. I don't understand why you should buy 1100,- $ rod to catch a fish 😂
@kuttycrew6 ай бұрын
I looked at 10 pages of promotion in the Orvis catalog that came today, and still couldn’t find the price. Guess I know what we are paying for.
@Colin212335 ай бұрын
Overpriced junk, liked the H3s better and love the new Scott Session, especially at the lower price point
@jimr50007 ай бұрын
Okay Ben, got one for you. Looking for a 6 weight to throw dries at distance or wind. 45-75'. Got it narrowed down to the truth z, ultralight X, igniter or this. Which would you pick?
@carlskinn71295 ай бұрын
SO what is the best top end 4 weight 9 foot fly rod for the price? Looking to buy but it's a mine field out there!
@pecosnick457 ай бұрын
The white has grown on me. I didnt like the two tone effect on this new series but it to seems classier the more and more I look at it.
@Alister-t8tАй бұрын
Is that the 5wt?
@fishingwithemin7 ай бұрын
Why did you test the F model with the wrong line 🤣. Do the test again with the correct line.
@Subaruuu127 ай бұрын
for $1100-$1200 id rather buy a Sage, Winston, Loomis or T&T. The white label is horrendous.
@swagstevo24423 ай бұрын
That’s why I’m hoping they bring the blue back asap
@kkswain963 ай бұрын
$1475 Canadian 😅 I’ll stick with my Scott centric
@23v0lv324 ай бұрын
The white is absolutely for the label recognition. 100%
@slhibbs7 ай бұрын
I just brought 2 Hardy Zane Pros for 459.00 each 8 and 10wt from a UK dealer why would you pay 1259.00 in the UK for this rod. 1259.00 no way and i love my tackle
@broken8wt4077 ай бұрын
They'll keep making these BS rods if you keep buying them.
@scottcaldwell74807 ай бұрын
I am glad those who can afford such rods have a good time fishing with them. Also glad my friends and I have fun fishing with our $100 combo rigs bought online. Either way it beats going to work!
@charleshatcher-m6n7 ай бұрын
Great job enjoyed the information. Makes me think about casting one myself with the info from your show
@jeffhansen89935 ай бұрын
Are you going to do reveiw on the winston air 2 max?
@axelg42637 ай бұрын
The action of the 4F is different than the 3F ? more soft / More stiff ?
@69texaseyes7 ай бұрын
Prices getting out of control. I won't pay 10 dollars for a big mac and I'm not paying 1100 for a fly rod.
@wahipple7 ай бұрын
I would never pay this much for a fly rod. But I do like the white section on the rod because it's like a big flag that says look at me I am a tool and I know not to talk to that person
@simonpeters34996 ай бұрын
Still no Hook Keeper?!
@scotte37287 ай бұрын
It’s not called the Helios 4, it’s just Helios
@tomwiggins12257 ай бұрын
Perhaps that suggests it may be the end of the line for the Helios
@michaellacy85107 ай бұрын
My first fly rod cost about $10. It cast for shit but I caught fish with it. After several years I saved enough money to buy a Fenwick fiberglass 6 wt. I think it was around $75. I used that rod for decades. Yeah, it was soft, but you could still cast a fly and fight a fish. Eventually, in my 40s I got a Sage XP. I held my nose and forked over $600. It's a great rod and I'm still using it. I'm in the market for a new trout rod and now I can actually afford just about anything. I know I'm just another old guy yelling at the computer, but, I just can't convince myself to spend $1,000-1,300 on a fly rod. I'll be buying something less expensive if I buy anything new at all. And yeah, that white label is an abomination. It screams low self-esteem.
@rossbickers86497 ай бұрын
Can somebody please teach Orvis about pretty, they have no clue.
@Hippiehansie7 ай бұрын
😂😂😂😂😂
@wayneessary77687 ай бұрын
I am proud to show the label on my rods
@scott30655 ай бұрын
😅
@KevinMcIntyre-q6t7 ай бұрын
I'm always amazed at the reviewers who care what the rod looks like (the white). I care about performance and the white is just fine with me. I'm sure it's a marketing issue and bevis of the controversy it's working.
@anonym1anonym2436 ай бұрын
Well, the rod has to match your reel..so it matters :)
@jacekmyslinski96297 ай бұрын
Excellent presentation Ben , thank you.
@dragfreedrifter91737 ай бұрын
A fly rod is a tool. There are a lot of good ones out there there at various price points. I’m not against expensive rods. But one thing for sure is that buying an expensive rod will not make you a better or a more accurate caster. Only time and practice will do that. If you Ike the look of a particular brand, and have the money, then by all means. Orvis makes a good rod but so does TFO and St. Croix (to name just two) and for a lot less money. Keep in mind that rods break and the Orvis guarantee is not as good as it once was.
@rhonda8377 ай бұрын
check out the price on the new top of the line st.croix.
@dragfreedrifter91737 ай бұрын
@@rhonda837 I was surprised by that. Didn't know that St. Croix has entered the luxury market. Appreciate the info. I believe you can still find a lower end St. Croix for a couple hundred bucks. Redington (same parent company as Sage) is another more affordable option. Both companies make good rods. No way I would personally bring my favorite fly rod (which happens to be an older Scott) along in my drift boat. IMHO expensive rods are for wade fishing only.
@ruebdogg17 ай бұрын
Nevermind Orvis...your new theme music is intense! Gets me jacked to go cast in the park!!
@pickledud77037 ай бұрын
😂
@greenhornflyhorn7 ай бұрын
But is it 4X better than the H3? HAHAHA! Appreciate the review Ben
@olivertwist44077 ай бұрын
Dear Ben, I appreciate your reviews especially those on tackle which is not reviewed by others, e.g. Hardy. I also understand that testing different fly lines on a single rod multiplies the effort. However testing the Helios 4F with an DA MPX is useless and doesn’t provide me with the information I need to get a feeling for the rod‘s action. You are the only fly rod reviewer using the moment of inertia to describe a rod‘s swing weight, in my eyes the best measure available for this task. Now, this objective measure is not mentioned ad it apparently doesn’t match Orvis marketing claim. Instead, the new grip on the Helios 4 makes the rod feel lighter. Yet another objective measure out of the window…. If buying fly rods is reduced to subjective measure, I couldn’t care less about such an ugly looking rod. I wonder what is left from „Made in the USA“… when Korean made rods have more soul those those from Vermont. I will never appear with a white banded rod on the water. You will recognize my rod when I hold it into the sun and you see the emerald green blank
@anderste46497 ай бұрын
I like to spend on Scott, Winston, etc, because they are real rod makers still around. They’re just using graphite instead of split-cane. Orvis screams machine made which I guess it has to be if replacement sections don’t need fitting.
@banjovass0077 ай бұрын
Sleazy salesman trying to sell an over priced fishing stick. What a sad way to earn a living.
@Subaruuu127 ай бұрын
Sage doesnt sell $200 dog beds. please dont compare them to Orvis.
@kkawai77 ай бұрын
$1,000 plus and no hook keeper? What'll be next to go... the alignment dots?
@brooktroutangler59177 ай бұрын
It's a Sean Combs thing......feels the lack of a hook keeper reduces breakages. I'm with you.....prefer the keeper
@petermoore1437 ай бұрын
Buy 4 tfo rods instead
@barry4fish197 ай бұрын
For that price, and no hook keeper? And, the Orvis excuse they give for eliminating that feature from their rods is lame. They claim it’s because it causes more broken rods. There is no more risk of that happening with a hook keeper, than hooking your fly up on the stripping guide, which is what you have to do when the hook keeper isn’t there. The other thing, is that the improvements over the Helios 3 are unlikely to be significant enough to change, if we already have some of the previous models. This is true for many of the other “new versions” of rods that I have tried over the last few years. But Ben, keep up on these reviews because they still help us learn.