osu! | What's up with pp maps? (ppv2 Part 1)

[@okk____]

"Hello, so while writing the script" is written in the script... top tier comedy

[@zippydipity42]

I will happily admit to pp farming whenever I feel like I'm good enough to break a recent wall. But most of the time when I play osu, the difference between a pp map and a "good" map, is whether I feel motivated to fix my score or not. If I miss half way on a pp map, I'll add it to a collection and fix it. However, with a tricky map I will typically either add it to my "fun maps" collection for when I'm in the mood, or leave it alone if it wasn't all that fun. I feel like doing this creates a nice balance between leaderboard farming, and playing osu for fun :)

[@gdash6925]

Zypre woah

[@billylanpowell8265]

Exactly dude I farm pp maps once I reach enough skill to fc on the first or second try and I just play other maps in general

[@CasperRaserbil]

PP does not measure skill, it measures achievement.

[@stun2235]

Ah, so that's why we get rank 100ks setting 800pps, I see! ...

[@CasperRaserbil]

StuNiPid that has never happened but if you are reffering to fgsky then yes. If you try something 4000 times you are very likely to ACHIEVE your goal (in this case getting some big pp). PP simply measures how many/good scores a player has achieved. Im not saying the pp system does'nt have flaws but thinking the pp system (in its current state) is a measurement of skill is just wrong.

[@seanscott1308]

Casper Röseby, which is stupid

[@CasperRaserbil]

Sean Scott why is that stupid? Measureing skill in a game where you can retry and learn the maps is extremely difficult, it's not like overwatch or battlefield 4 where situations are constantly different. The most comparable way of measuring skill to those games in osu is probably through sightread tournaments.

[@stun2235]

Actually what I said was sarcastic, I was pointing out that you don't see 6 digits with 800pps so yes pp is indicative of skill, FGSKY is no exception, he just retried the map nearly 4000 times. Making Osu! a sightreading game would make it literally unplayable, lmfao.

[@shadowllght]

Yes I farm pp, but that's not the only reason I play this game. (Help it wont let me escape)

[@bruhemoth5599]

Haha haha Every guy says this Lol Please stop saying that please

[@DA_MAYYA]

@@bruhemoth5599 Yes I farm pp, but that's not the only reason I play this game.

[@39nova77]

PP doesn't support technical maps or maps with trick hit circles e.g.: a slider then hit circle then another hit circle where the last slider ended, which is often difficult to read and can make you think it's a slider which isn't taken into account by the PP system.

[@TheRockzSGOsu]

A very clever way of editing this video :) Good job!

[@lolisamurai]

your explanation of the pp formulas and values involved is actually pretty accurate. also, about strains: they are used in std as well, and it's simply aim/speed values for each individual object. in the final star rating calculation, the max strains of each 400 ms chunk of the map are added in a weighted sum (like your top pp plays but with a different decay) to get the total aim/speed value. also there' some trickery in picking the max strains - it starts off with the previous section's max strain decayed with how much time has passed the decay for the weighted sum of the strains is .90, so it doesn't take many 400ms high strain chunks to saturate star rating which is what pp maps do (as well as artificially squeezing more circles to get that acc pp circle count bonus)

[@Kachulu]

bigger pp = better pp

[@wispy9859]

No

[@JustCluby]

Kachulu nice one

[@hideru_osu]

u forgot bigger cursor=bigger pp

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

Its not about the size of the pp its about your skill.

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@harleyHDz]

Very good, can't wait for the second

[@dogergolem6558]

What if I told you that.... I play Osu! For fun and dont care about pp.

[@nocop5382]

Dogergolem whats the fun in that

[@pav_pab]

I will report you for lying to the prosecution.

[@BillLeBo]

Same here, and let me tell you my secret: 6 digits

[@uwtaa]

liar. You can’t escape that amazing feeling of gaining pp

[@bananya6020]

you're lying

[@ektechnologies]

In standard osu! strain is used to calculate the star rating. The basic idea is that consecutive hit objects keep adding up the strain value based on the difficulty of clicking the next object. The strain values are then calculated in 400ms intervals, sorted largest to smallest and added up with decay (pretty much exactly how player's total pp is calculated, but for a beatmap star rating). And that's where you get aim, speed and acc values from. Hit me up if you want to discuss more technical aspects of osu!

[@FatfanKolek]

very informative as always, i really feel like you've improved your editing aswell, i dig it!

[@richardgrant973]

when i started farming it actually made me better at playing the game cuz i started to see patterns on other beatmaps before i did that i saw vids on youtube telling me i shouldnt "retry" cuz im gonna build useless muscle memory but that useless muscle memory helped me get better lol

[@retiredproject7602]

Part 2 when daddy

[@edgy_niko5218]

Narrator strange you're not being replied by either hate or love

[@AWESOMEDUDE2311]

@@edgy_niko5218 ...idk

[@meta04]

25 March 2018. I'm a year late but who cares^w^

[@LwL_]

Length multiplier doesn't apply to accValue btw. Source: the source code. Still interesting video though.

[@AMo_osu]

You are correct.

[@Littlefighter1911]

5:57 The question is most likely still biased towards jumps being easier, because it's the current (and past) meta. Many people just aren't good at streams and low AR because there are nearly no 4* maps that require these "techniques" (4.5* being what the majority of players probably know). I noticed that with certain maps on online, I totally outrank people online that are 100k better than me (I'm 285k), because they can't read AR8 at all, nor can they burst stream. Qualities that are usually not asked for. These people want to skip those maps, because they can't play that, but that's the one thing that I'm standing out comparatively, because I played a lot of garbage maps back then and I do not enjoy jumps. My aiming absolutely sucks, my reading is decent and I can somewhat stream, as long as it's not for too long. And you can see that in my top plays. Only maps with some burst streams are my highest maps. Despite me being proud on having passed "Mermaid Girl" on Another with Full Combo, which contains super annoying aim and jumps, what actually is my highest is stuff like "Ghostly Parapara Ship", because it contains easy (but many) streams. I also passed "Hitorigoto" (shown at 7:07) on the highest diff with A (and 6 misses). But that doesn't even show up, because apparently "no FC" is worth nothing. People just got so insanely good at aiming because of farm maps that exist. It's not that stream burst maps could not be farmable to certain people, it's that stream bursts maps are generally in less demand and as you've shown even discouraged. It's a chicken-or-the-egg problem. The stream maps aren't harder, it's just the majority of people that are currently playing are incapable of playing stream maps. You're devaluating their skill at aiming/jumping, because that's just what everybody's used to. Doesn't mean if the meta was stream maps, that these people wouldn't get the same reward (maybe even higher) for the same amount of effort put into it. 7:24 That's the fun thing, these short jump intense maps are HARDER to me, than many "stream" maps of the same star count. 8:02 These are the kind of maps that I bashed my head against. Banned forever is my third most played map and "Hitorigoto" my fifth most played map.

[@banana_]

the editing is so clean omg

[@dr.chopper3804]

Now I know why Harumachi clover and despacito are such easy farm maps if you are good at jumps

[@meramii5144]

Looks like some people don't get that some players enjoy gaining pp... But yeah, pp system is broken, although i think its more about mapping meta and players focusing on pp

[@bennygo3]

Yeah gaining ranks/pp is one very enjoyable aspect of osu. But many also wanna enjoy other styles of mapping, music, long maps etc. while ALSO gaining pp but with the current system its fairly difficult to do both.

[@bennygo3]

I spend about 80% of my osu playtime playing stream maps and 2.5min+ maps but 90% of my top pp plays are 1.5min pp maps. Its pretty fucked

[@ebbandfloatzel]

Honestly it feels like the other way around. Everytime I hear someone talk about pp, they always bring up that nobody plays for fun. There's even a few that claim if you play anime openings/endings that you're a pp farmer.

[@TopicTide2]

Very very very nice video btw 👌

[@BigDBrian]

You forgot to take something pretty important into account. There's 2 halves to the pp system. One is how the raw pp value for a map is calculated (which is explained in this video), and the other is how scores on a given map are interpreted (not even mentioned). Here's some examples in how that's relevant: - The difference between 100% acc and 99% acc on a map with OD10 (hard rock) is much greater than if the map was, say, OD7. - Streams are also objectively harder to acc than jumps because of the amount of strain (which, as you said, ppv2 doesn't properly account for) - Since sliders effectively give a free 300, they will boost your accuracy on the map. Since your accuracy of the entire map is taken into consideration, rather than just the accuracy you got for hitcircles, sliders give an indirect accboost and are actually somewhat factored into ppv2 as a result. (Of course, with scorev2, this would be removed, but scorev2 won't replace the current system.) This somewhat negates the downsides of including sliders in your map (more effort for the same aimvalue/speedvalue or even a decrease in accvalue) Anyhow. pp will never be truly balanced, I actually don't think the current system is all that bad, despite its shortcomings. Some of the glaring issues are: - you simply can't measure flow - the formula for speed and aim has to be consistent for all BPMs. but this creates a disparity between stream aim and jump aim. Since these two are fundamentally different, it's impossible to balance a single formula for both. To fix this the system would somehow have to perfectly answer the question "what plays like a stream and what plays like jumps?" - tablet aim and mouse aim differ in what's comfortable and what isn't (the short version of it is that mouse is better at stream aim whereas tablet is better at jump aim) To sum it up: with a tablet you aim in position, with a mouse you aim in velocity. I somewhat disagree with the idea that maps rarely get popular for being hard and interesting. But maybe that's just my own bias, I really love maps like Impulse and other technical maps. And they don't feel underrated since pretty much nobody can argue that the map is amazing.

[@circle5622]

Thanks for the video. I might try out different ways of calculating pp when I get home.

[@SquashyBoy]

11 mins of KNOWLEDGE

[@Yotanido]

I play osu for fun. And I also play lots of pp farming maps. Why? Because I fucking love them. Fast, high-spacing jumps make me feel much better than I actually am, especially since I can't stream at all. (I usually fail jump maps at the one stream they always seem to have...) Apart from those, I also play old maps (I like these "super slow, spaced streams", if you know what I mean) and marathons. Both of those aren't great for pp, but as I said initially, I don't actually care that much. My interest in maps just happens to align with maps that give lots of pp.

[@yppie1459]

Quality edit, luvv ya boi

[@BowieProYT]

3:10 rip, strain value does apply to std

[@apaajaboleh104]

An irrelevant comment I play taiko, so technically I don't really care about this video (although it's still a very interesting topic which is why I watch it to the very end) DT is mathematically op in Taiko because it shrinks the time window for 300s (The time window for 300s is one of the main factor of how Taiko pp is calculated and unlike standards, an increase of OD by 1 reduces the time window in Taiko by 3 ms (compare to Standards which is 6 ms). OD 7 in Taiko is equivalent to OD 8.5 in standards in terms of 300s time window And the best way to create pp maps in Taiko is to spam a lot of 1/6 note (still get ranked) The other way is to spam spinners (like hundreds of them within 1 second) or spinner that overlaps with hit circle (won't get ranked)

[@shoeforlunch]

Nighthunter 1 and HR sv is underweighted

[@Dymm2454]

the editing was sick

[@auxiliusm]

i hope they change some things up in lazer, with community input and constant tweaking we could actually get close to skill=pp stuff like 6.5*+EZ = Hard, or nerfing Jump maps when it comes to angles, or HDDT reading

[@pentacoilz8560]

"sliders are severely underweighted" me in 2021: haha

[@Artikash]

My issue with this is that the most overweighted maps (Mynarco, rog-unlimitation, Save Me, Uta, Defenders) are basically just streams.

[@jazznego8640]

longer maps = more pp (rog unlimitation is only 230 pp fc)

[@ronandasylvo]

Congrats with the 10 minute mark

[@Static-EN-]

it's actually very informative for me so shush

[@eggyolk8067]

I cant do jumps because i use a bulky mouse

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

really like the presentation at 1:54

[@vulcanprincess1584]

Would people object to changing sliders so that they have aim value? needing to let go of the slider at the right time? it always bothered me how slider heavy maps feel very "off" to play, and i think thats why. its not rewarding trying to end the slider right on time, so when i find myself ending the sliders late, but it still doesnt affect my score, it is disconcerting

[@4ma-deu5]

The only thing i would change would be the sliders. I'd make them weight more so they had any meaning. I like current mapping style, no matter if it's focused on pp or not. It's looking good. The old mapping style was just hit circles put in straight lines in som e patterns like single hit-single hit-fast triple hit etc. At least that's what i see watching WWW playing this game. And i honestly would never play maps like those.

[@Snaily_Lefette]

7:29 that's a really good rhyme

[@sefeo0]

8:59 well, badeu showed us that any map can be counted as farm

[@GuyFromSomeWorld]

We absolutely need this.

[@LasrAnneimations]

What I say: I don't farm pp, I play osu for fun What I really mean: I'm not good enough at osu yet to even pass pp farm maps

[@lomina7868]

I didn't even know what pp is until now. I actually like playing OSU and I'm doing it for fun

[@connerhagerman2470]

I dont get why people cant farm and still have fun

[@muazbadrudeen429]

Wait so me just playing tech maps makes me gain op slower? Damn.

[@eonstar]

As someone who barely understands the PP system, I really do just play for fun >.>. I just try to get as many maps as high as I can get them (Like S, A B etc).

[@oxey_]

Great video :)

[@Zelepha]

great video

[@novadude1255]

Great vid

[@Billybaka]

im an og player and i agree, sotarks maps are .. ok. fun ? yeah to some point .. but ... fun factor is my main thing to judge a map and of course its preferences on playstyles...

[@StrawberrySilica]

Nicely made video. When is part 2?

[@Lillakk23]

I got osu like a month and a half ago and have recently gotten really into it i play it for fun i dont really understand pp and rankings and all that

[@jow2059]

My pp has been rising these past few days

[@derpybubblez7746]

I don't play osu!, but it'd be for fun. I play Project Diva X for fun, but eventually you'll always reach a barrier. (Somewhat an issue of not being good at Extreme difficulties, somewhat my Triangle button squeaking)

[@2wice4RICE]

dude i know u made it much simpler but my brain died

[@luc222GH]

if you're really gonna mention dan courses as a way judging player skill then i'm waiting for part 2. I've always wanted someone to consider them for osu std after seeing them in o!m and bms

[@sanji1927]

I’ve been playing this for 2 months and i still dont know what pps stand for

[@jeffrypig23]

Hey! As of May 16 2018, there has been an update to the PP system. Are the points in this video still relevant?

[@cjqmt]

What's the map at 0:27?

[@MadDoctor567]

i actually do play the game for fun, and have been trying to fc "Can We Fix It? TV Size [Normal] 3*

[@SuperNikio2]

part 2 when

[@varungandhi8796]

Combo/score doesn't change the pp given?

[@Torphage]

I do play for fun, I can easily rank up if I wanted to (apparently I am at rank 250k, never look at my rank normallu) but I only play the maps I like the song of and/or the feeling of the map. I have never bothered looking up what pp actually is since I dont care what rank I am. I may not play as much as some people but I play every other day.

[@Krix08]

what if im actually playing for FUN?

[@yukiaimissa3874]

Oh well at least i made the 10 minute mark *ad in the last second*

[@xZyvon]

i play music cause i enjoy it, offcourse i do sometimes check pp or try to fc for pp but only if i enjoy the map.

[@vulcanprincess1584]

it seems what people want when pp farming, is maps that will give them pp, without actually working on the areas where they could improve..i mean i find myself guilty of that. when i hit a wall, its humbling and difficult to look at and to improve on what i could

[@Marpfie]

"You only play for pp" .. Hmm at that point I feel like closing the video, because it is clearly not aimed at me

[@gryzus2475]

Really good video

[@Fluffsoup]

oh well atleast i made it to the 10 minute mark i see an instant ad

[@jaysans4746]

very informative ty

[@AMVLifez]

so number one on a map does not give extra pp?

[@azarely1440]

Is it bad that I have all farm maps already downloaded?

[@sachachristin5592]

Imo, pp should be calculated based on the amount of similar scores on the map. I mean, a score is good if few people can manage to get it. So pp should be calculated on the map rankings.

[@cruzneto0]

PP itself should be based on the diff itself, but I can see your point being valid as to how it can weight in a players profile. Interesting idea.

[@trakodonKR]

Well that would be kimda hard becuase if an unpopular lvl gets some plays then a 5 star might give 1000 pp just because noone knows it and havent tried toake a play

[@potatotremo2205]

I only play hard maps to improve my skills, a lot of misses :u

[@Brieen]

So how much pp would centipede award if ranked? 🤔

[@순수한일삼이]

6:01 ......????

[@lomarix]

When the next one?

[@loomon2610]

i don't know how pp works at all so i just play whatever songs i like. been doing this for like 2 years.

[@ScubDomino]

Have you ever tries putting faint lounge music Or something in the background of videos to keep attention?

[@AMo_osu]

Kinda hard when my videos rely on sound so much :(

[@ScubDomino]

You could try muting the music and only include hitsounds while doing videos, or add them in "silent" parts of the video

[@kiinain6181]

I just play all my maps and when i see my rank is falling out of 15k i just farm it back to taht rank and then i just go back to having fun

[@oceanlawnlove8109]

dude we constantly have Osu!Archive on circle people o.o

[@airikomiya5992]

how do people hit star patterns wth

[@adrientchamitchian4990]

it s lost also a lot easier to get a good accuracy (and so more pp) and built muscle memory on jump maps, so even you dont have the lvl you can try somehow manage to finish it and get your pp's, stream's maps cant be done unless you have the lvl to.

[@immrfly1462]

I play some popular maps that are pretty good with pp mainly because I love to play jump maps so I don’t mainly go for pp but I mainly go for fun maps so it’s a fun game and no t a farming game.

[@rumissile]

I got distracted part of the way through and then realised I wasn't listening to Yahtzee from Escapist

[@gobahgaber6909]

i just knew that there were rankings in osu, i just played osu to increase my reaction.

[@poiuytrewq4645]

did you steal that from tom scott @ 8:10

[@isellgimbap]

Ive hit a wall, i cant gain ranks anymore cuz im restricted =/

[@yepcock5814]

Long sliders should be giving more pp based on their angle complexity, speed and length, this can also be abused but it allows for more flexibility while making a “pp farm” map

[@Littlefighter1911]

Optimally, a map would need to give more pp, if it included a decent amount of jump as well stream sections.

[@niklas1572]

Why does my circles just have 2 or 3 colours (believe just blue and pink) while your circles have also like a orange tone(dont have this colour and using the same skin)? I just play the game for fun trying to improve myself ofcourse and i believe its not the amount of pp u get at the end which is the reward but rather the score you get or to finish a map u tried very often(at least for me). Idc bout pp as long I can have fun while hearing the music I like and actually getting some new songs I also like.

[@AMo_osu]

I have "Ignore all beatmap skins" disabled. It'll use the beatmap's combo colours that way, and most maps don't have skins anyway.

[@niklas1572]

Actually i also have this disabled. :x IDK why there r just these two colours q.q But thanks for the respond

[@leo72192]

did you just say having fun is not possible, pp is the only thing that can keep you playing?

[@itzjandro9881]

That's why scarlet rose only have 5 stars?

[@zombiesharkzzzTEAMSHARKY]

I play for fun since i have no internet so none of my scores save

[@tilmanrotationalinvariant2257]

Sorry but i can't see why slider velocity, acceleration and deacceleration of the cursor and angles is still not awarded? I could program that in 2 days, seriously, I fail to see whats hard about this, especially if they're already developing a new pp score!

[@jesusfajardo2357]

nice vid

[@kohimame]

This is why I play offline haha (You don't necessarily have to do this, but it gives you the merit of, "Oh, I don't play for rank! I play for the fun of it!")

[@realsekai3778]

guide how to make a pp map

[@humanitypng1211]

quality video

[@Jalapinecone]

oh dang, i thought I was the only person who used that cursor

[@Darrentime]

0:38 i dont even know what pp is xD