osu! | What's up with pp maps? (ppv2 Part 1)

Discussion on osu!'s ranking system, ppv2, and its effect on competitive play and mapping.
GranDSenpai supplied replays again. Thank him, or something.
References:
pp wiki article: osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Performa...
osu! performance Github repository: github.com/ppy/osu-performance
How the PP system in osu! sees -GN's FC on [Notch Hell] (Circle People): • How the PP system in o...
oppai difficulty and pp calculator: github.com/Francesco149/oppai-ng
Maps:
ClariS - Hitorigoto TV MIX (Doormat) osu.ppy.sh/s/596704
Hanasaka Yui(CV: M.A.O) - Harumachi Clover (Karen) osu.ppy.sh/s/557733
KikuoHana - Nobore! Susume! Takai Tou (Karen) osu.ppy.sh/s/528821
Komiya Mao - (can you) understand me? (Sotarks) osu.ppy.sh/s/456986
RADWIMPS - Zen Zen Zense (movie ver.) (Monstrata) osu.ppy.sh/s/513590 pick which diff you like better.
Halozy - Kikoku Doukoku Jigokuraku (Hollow Wings) osu.ppy.sh/s/437683
Aoshima Moka (CV: Mimori Suzuko) - kibo refrain (Sotarks) osu.ppy.sh/s/715596
The Quick Brown Fox - The Big Black (Blue Dragon) osu.ppy.sh/s/41823
Renard - Banned Forever (Blue Dragon) osu.ppy.sh/s/16349
NOMA - Brain Power (Monstrata) osu.ppy.sh/s/546384
Elmo and Cookie Monster - Cookie-Butter-Choco-Cookie (Monstrata) osu.ppy.sh/s/542081
ClariS - SHIORI vs. Hitorigoto (Sotarks) osu.ppy.sh/s/707380
Tanaka Hirokazu - C-TYPE (MBmasher) osu.ppy.sh/s/426396
DJ S3RL - T-T-Techno (feat. Jesskah) (nold_1702) osu.ppy.sh/s/83560
osu.ppy.sh/u/2202163
/ amoman_
Skin: amo.s-ul.eu/oApvJHWA

[@okk____]

"Hello, so while writing the script" is written in the script... top tier comedy

[@zippydipity42]

I will happily admit to pp farming whenever I feel like I'm good enough to break a recent wall. But most of the time when I play osu, the difference between a pp map and a "good" map, is whether I feel motivated to fix my score or not. If I miss half way on a pp map, I'll add it to a collection and fix it. However, with a tricky map I will typically either add it to my "fun maps" collection for when I'm in the mood, or leave it alone if it wasn't all that fun. I feel like doing this creates a nice balance between leaderboard farming, and playing osu for fun :)

[@gdash6925]

Zypre woah

[@billylanpowell8265]

Exactly dude I farm pp maps once I reach enough skill to fc on the first or second try and I just play other maps in general

[@CasperRaserbil]

PP does not measure skill, it measures achievement.

[@stun2235]

Ah, so that's why we get rank 100ks setting 800pps, I see! ...

[@CasperRaserbil]

StuNiPid that has never happened but if you are reffering to fgsky then yes. If you try something 4000 times you are very likely to ACHIEVE your goal (in this case getting some big pp). PP simply measures how many/good scores a player has achieved. Im not saying the pp system does'nt have flaws but thinking the pp system (in its current state) is a measurement of skill is just wrong.

[@seanscott1308]

Casper Röseby, which is stupid

[@CasperRaserbil]

Sean Scott why is that stupid? Measureing skill in a game where you can retry and learn the maps is extremely difficult, it's not like overwatch or battlefield 4 where situations are constantly different. The most comparable way of measuring skill to those games in osu is probably through sightread tournaments.

[@stun2235]

Actually what I said was sarcastic, I was pointing out that you don't see 6 digits with 800pps so yes pp is indicative of skill, FGSKY is no exception, he just retried the map nearly 4000 times. Making Osu! a sightreading game would make it literally unplayable, lmfao.

[@shadowllght]

Yes I farm pp, but that's not the only reason I play this game. (Help it wont let me escape)

[@bruhemoth5599]

Haha haha Every guy says this Lol Please stop saying that please

[@DA_MAYYA]

@@bruhemoth5599 Yes I farm pp, but that's not the only reason I play this game.

[@39nova77]

PP doesn't support technical maps or maps with trick hit circles e.g.: a slider then hit circle then another hit circle where the last slider ended, which is often difficult to read and can make you think it's a slider which isn't taken into account by the PP system.

[@TheRockzSGOsu]

A very clever way of editing this video :) Good job!

[@harleyHDz]

Very good, can't wait for the second

[@lolisamurai]

your explanation of the pp formulas and values involved is actually pretty accurate. also, about strains: they are used in std as well, and it's simply aim/speed values for each individual object. in the final star rating calculation, the max strains of each 400 ms chunk of the map are added in a weighted sum (like your top pp plays but with a different decay) to get the total aim/speed value. also there' some trickery in picking the max strains - it starts off with the previous section's max strain decayed with how much time has passed the decay for the weighted sum of the strains is .90, so it doesn't take many 400ms high strain chunks to saturate star rating which is what pp maps do (as well as artificially squeezing more circles to get that acc pp circle count bonus)

[@FatfanKolek]

very informative as always, i really feel like you've improved your editing aswell, i dig it!

[@Kachulu]

bigger pp = better pp

[@wispy9859]

No

[@JustCluby]

Kachulu nice one

[@hideru_osu]

u forgot bigger cursor=bigger pp

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

Its not about the size of the pp its about your skill.

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@TopicTide2]

Very very very nice video btw 👌

[@circle5622]

Thanks for the video. I might try out different ways of calculating pp when I get home.

[@richardgrant973]

when i started farming it actually made me better at playing the game cuz i started to see patterns on other beatmaps before i did that i saw vids on youtube telling me i shouldnt "retry" cuz im gonna build useless muscle memory but that useless muscle memory helped me get better lol

[@banana_]

the editing is so clean omg

[@VirecGames]

Great video :))

[@dr.chopper3804]

Now I know why Harumachi clover and despacito are such easy farm maps if you are good at jumps

[@dogergolem6558]

What if I told you that.... I play Osu! For fun and dont care about pp.

[@nocop5382]

Dogergolem whats the fun in that

[@pav_pab]

I will report you for lying to the prosecution.

[@BillLeBo]

Same here, and let me tell you my secret: 6 digits

[@uwtaa]

liar. You can’t escape that amazing feeling of gaining pp

[@bananya6020]

you're lying

[@yppie1459]

Quality edit, luvv ya boi

[@novadude1255]

Great vid

[@LwL_]

Length multiplier doesn't apply to accValue btw. Source: the source code. Still interesting video though.

[@AMo_osu]

You are correct.

[@ektechnologies]

In standard osu! strain is used to calculate the star rating. The basic idea is that consecutive hit objects keep adding up the strain value based on the difficulty of clicking the next object. The strain values are then calculated in 400ms intervals, sorted largest to smallest and added up with decay (pretty much exactly how player's total pp is calculated, but for a beatmap star rating). And that's where you get aim, speed and acc values from. Hit me up if you want to discuss more technical aspects of osu!

[@oxey_]

Great video :)

[@jaysans4746]

very informative ty

[@Zelepha]

great video

[@borisborisov54]

the editing was sick

[@GuyFromSomeWorld]

We absolutely need this.

[@gryzus2475]

Really good video

[@jaakkohintsala2597]

really like the presentation at 1:54

[@jesusfajardo2357]

nice vid

[@SquashyBoy]

11 mins of KNOWLEDGE

[@Snaily_Lefette]

7:29 that's a really good rhyme

[@retiredproject7602]

Part 2 when daddy

[@edgy_niko5218]

Narrator strange you're not being replied by either hate or love

[@AWESOMEDUDE2311]

@@edgy_niko5218 ...idk

[@meta04]

25 March 2018. I'm a year late but who cares^w^

[@auxiliusm]

i hope they change some things up in lazer, with community input and constant tweaking we could actually get close to skill=pp stuff like 6.5*+EZ = Hard, or nerfing Jump maps when it comes to angles, or HDDT reading

[@meramii5144]

Looks like some people don't get that some players enjoy gaining pp... But yeah, pp system is broken, although i think its more about mapping meta and players focusing on pp

[@bennygo3]

Yeah gaining ranks/pp is one very enjoyable aspect of osu. But many also wanna enjoy other styles of mapping, music, long maps etc. while ALSO gaining pp but with the current system its fairly difficult to do both.

[@bennygo3]

I spend about 80% of my osu playtime playing stream maps and 2.5min+ maps but 90% of my top pp plays are 1.5min pp maps. Its pretty fucked

[@ebbandfloatzel]

Honestly it feels like the other way around. Everytime I hear someone talk about pp, they always bring up that nobody plays for fun. There's even a few that claim if you play anime openings/endings that you're a pp farmer.

[@Sidetracked_Day]

The last fact, i experineced it when i cut out to the last part of marisa wa taihen (the old map) and leave only the end, the last partbslider stream just got a ton of spacing and still have the same star value

[@humanitypng1211]

quality video

[@yukiaimissa3874]

Oh well at least i made the 10 minute mark *ad in the last second*

[@Fluffsoup]

oh well atleast i made it to the 10 minute mark i see an instant ad

[@BowieProYT]

3:10 rip, strain value does apply to std

[@ksg8176]

score grind is life

[@Billybaka]

im an og player and i agree, sotarks maps are .. ok. fun ? yeah to some point .. but ... fun factor is my main thing to judge a map and of course its preferences on playstyles...

[@Flare-nd]

1:59 genius

[@2wice4RICE]

dude i know u made it much simpler but my brain died

[@apaajaboleh104]

An irrelevant comment I play taiko, so technically I don't really care about this video (although it's still a very interesting topic which is why I watch it to the very end) DT is mathematically op in Taiko because it shrinks the time window for 300s (The time window for 300s is one of the main factor of how Taiko pp is calculated and unlike standards, an increase of OD by 1 reduces the time window in Taiko by 3 ms (compare to Standards which is 6 ms). OD 7 in Taiko is equivalent to OD 8.5 in standards in terms of 300s time window And the best way to create pp maps in Taiko is to spam a lot of 1/6 note (still get ranked) The other way is to spam spinners (like hundreds of them within 1 second) or spinner that overlaps with hit circle (won't get ranked)

[@shoeforlunch]

Nighthunter 1 and HR sv is underweighted

[@StrawberrySilica]

Nicely made video. When is part 2?

[@Yotanido]

I play osu for fun. And I also play lots of pp farming maps. Why? Because I fucking love them. Fast, high-spacing jumps make me feel much better than I actually am, especially since I can't stream at all. (I usually fail jump maps at the one stream they always seem to have...) Apart from those, I also play old maps (I like these "super slow, spaced streams", if you know what I mean) and marathons. Both of those aren't great for pp, but as I said initially, I don't actually care that much. My interest in maps just happens to align with maps that give lots of pp.

[@vulcanprincess1584]

Would people object to changing sliders so that they have aim value? needing to let go of the slider at the right time? it always bothered me how slider heavy maps feel very "off" to play, and i think thats why. its not rewarding trying to end the slider right on time, so when i find myself ending the sliders late, but it still doesnt affect my score, it is disconcerting

[@pillsins8832]

*Ну чё, пошел фармить xD*

[@BigDBrian]

You forgot to take something pretty important into account. There's 2 halves to the pp system. One is how the raw pp value for a map is calculated (which is explained in this video), and the other is how scores on a given map are interpreted (not even mentioned). Here's some examples in how that's relevant: - The difference between 100% acc and 99% acc on a map with OD10 (hard rock) is much greater than if the map was, say, OD7. - Streams are also objectively harder to acc than jumps because of the amount of strain (which, as you said, ppv2 doesn't properly account for) - Since sliders effectively give a free 300, they will boost your accuracy on the map. Since your accuracy of the entire map is taken into consideration, rather than just the accuracy you got for hitcircles, sliders give an indirect accboost and are actually somewhat factored into ppv2 as a result. (Of course, with scorev2, this would be removed, but scorev2 won't replace the current system.) This somewhat negates the downsides of including sliders in your map (more effort for the same aimvalue/speedvalue or even a decrease in accvalue) Anyhow. pp will never be truly balanced, I actually don't think the current system is all that bad, despite its shortcomings. Some of the glaring issues are: - you simply can't measure flow - the formula for speed and aim has to be consistent for all BPMs. but this creates a disparity between stream aim and jump aim. Since these two are fundamentally different, it's impossible to balance a single formula for both. To fix this the system would somehow have to perfectly answer the question "what plays like a stream and what plays like jumps?" - tablet aim and mouse aim differ in what's comfortable and what isn't (the short version of it is that mouse is better at stream aim whereas tablet is better at jump aim) To sum it up: with a tablet you aim in position, with a mouse you aim in velocity. I somewhat disagree with the idea that maps rarely get popular for being hard and interesting. But maybe that's just my own bias, I really love maps like Impulse and other technical maps. And they don't feel underrated since pretty much nobody can argue that the map is amazing.

[@lomina7868]

I didn't even know what pp is until now. I actually like playing OSU and I'm doing it for fun

[@eonstar]

As someone who barely understands the PP system, I really do just play for fun >.>. I just try to get as many maps as high as I can get them (Like S, A B etc).

[@jeffrypig23]

Hey! As of May 16 2018, there has been an update to the PP system. Are the points in this video still relevant?

[@luc222GH]

if you're really gonna mention dan courses as a way judging player skill then i'm waiting for part 2. I've always wanted someone to consider them for osu std after seeing them in o!m and bms

[@satyamsharma8369]

Nice

[@immrfly1462]

I play some popular maps that are pretty good with pp mainly because I love to play jump maps so I don’t mainly go for pp but I mainly go for fun maps so it’s a fun game and no t a farming game.

[@xZyvon]

i play music cause i enjoy it, offcourse i do sometimes check pp or try to fc for pp but only if i enjoy the map.

[@Torphage]

I do play for fun, I can easily rank up if I wanted to (apparently I am at rank 250k, never look at my rank normallu) but I only play the maps I like the song of and/or the feeling of the map. I have never bothered looking up what pp actually is since I dont care what rank I am. I may not play as much as some people but I play every other day.

[@Artikash]

My issue with this is that the most overweighted maps (Mynarco, rog-unlimitation, Save Me, Uta, Defenders) are basically just streams.

[@jazznego8640]

longer maps = more pp (rog unlimitation is only 230 pp fc)

[@rumissile]

I got distracted part of the way through and then realised I wasn't listening to Yahtzee from Escapist

[@wop0319]

Aye I hear Zen Zen Zense is the background

[@jow2059]

My pp has been rising these past few days

[@gobahgaber6909]

i just knew that there were rankings in osu, i just played osu to increase my reaction.

[@Arantxa177]

I play osu for fun and I can't wait for osu! lazer.

[@loomon2610]

i don't know how pp works at all so i just play whatever songs i like. been doing this for like 2 years.

[@holdmywaifu6108]

I got osu like a month and a half ago and have recently gotten really into it i play it for fun i dont really understand pp and rankings and all that

[@Jalapinecone]

oh dang, i thought I was the only person who used that cursor

[@sefeo0]

8:59 well, badeu showed us that any map can be counted as farm

[@AldoTheBoss]

I didn't know what is pp until i watched this video

[@muazbadrudeen429]

Wait so me just playing tech maps makes me gain op slower? Damn.

[@oceanlawnlove8109]

dude we constantly have Osu!Archive on circle people o.o

[@paper2222]

what's updog

[@pentacoilz8560]

"sliders are severely underweighted" me in 2021: haha

[@Littlefighter1911]

5:57 The question is most likely still biased towards jumps being easier, because it's the current (and past) meta. Many people just aren't good at streams and low AR because there are nearly no 4* maps that require these "techniques" (4.5* being what the majority of players probably know). I noticed that with certain maps on online, I totally outrank people online that are 100k better than me (I'm 285k), because they can't read AR8 at all, nor can they burst stream. Qualities that are usually not asked for. These people want to skip those maps, because they can't play that, but that's the one thing that I'm standing out comparatively, because I played a lot of garbage maps back then and I do not enjoy jumps. My aiming absolutely sucks, my reading is decent and I can somewhat stream, as long as it's not for too long. And you can see that in my top plays. Only maps with some burst streams are my highest maps. Despite me being proud on having passed "Mermaid Girl" on Another with Full Combo, which contains super annoying aim and jumps, what actually is my highest is stuff like "Ghostly Parapara Ship", because it contains easy (but many) streams. I also passed "Hitorigoto" (shown at 7:07) on the highest diff with A (and 6 misses). But that doesn't even show up, because apparently "no FC" is worth nothing. People just got so insanely good at aiming because of farm maps that exist. It's not that stream burst maps could not be farmable to certain people, it's that stream bursts maps are generally in less demand and as you've shown even discouraged. It's a chicken-or-the-egg problem. The stream maps aren't harder, it's just the majority of people that are currently playing are incapable of playing stream maps. You're devaluating their skill at aiming/jumping, because that's just what everybody's used to. Doesn't mean if the meta was stream maps, that these people wouldn't get the same reward (maybe even higher) for the same amount of effort put into it. 7:24 That's the fun thing, these short jump intense maps are HARDER to me, than many "stream" maps of the same star count. 8:02 These are the kind of maps that I bashed my head against. Banned forever is my third most played map and "Hitorigoto" my fifth most played map.

[@TacoSnoz]

i went on osu!direct, went to most played and the most played was despacito so i downloaded it and all i got was an s on hard but it gave me 41 fucking pp. I thought that's fucking ridiculous but after watching this I understand why it gave me so much. Nice Video.

[@pizzastock111]

I just look for the most tech/weirdest maps

[@varungandhi8796]

Combo/score doesn't change the pp given?

[@derpybubblez7746]

I don't play osu!, but it'd be for fun. I play Project Diva X for fun, but eventually you'll always reach a barrier. (Somewhat an issue of not being good at Extreme difficulties, somewhat my Triangle button squeaking)

[@azarely1440]

Is it bad that I have all farm maps already downloaded?

[@SuperNikio2]

part 2 when

[@MadDoctor567]

i actually do play the game for fun, and have been trying to fc "Can We Fix It? TV Size [Normal] 3*

[@anscheinend2668]

im playing for fun, but sometimes im farming dirty maps

[@eggyolk8067]

I cant do jumps because i use a bulky mouse

[@VerkoAviarhidea]

ok dad

[@kiinain6181]

I just play all my maps and when i see my rank is falling out of 15k i just farm it back to taht rank and then i just go back to having fun

[@airikomiya5992]

how do people hit star patterns wth

[@lomarix]

When the next one?

[@jebb4093]

Sad that Panda Eyes - ILY is one of my fav songs. Now I can’t play it without farming. I don’t wanna be a farmer 😂

[@Placeholder-lowercasen-ame]

*scorev2*

[@sanji1927]

I’ve been playing this for 2 months and i still dont know what pps stand for

[@Krix08]

what if im actually playing for FUN?

[@vulcanprincess1584]

it seems what people want when pp farming, is maps that will give them pp, without actually working on the areas where they could improve..i mean i find myself guilty of that. when i hit a wall, its humbling and difficult to look at and to improve on what i could

[@MrKapucyn19]

The only thing i would change would be the sliders. I'd make them weight more so they had any meaning. I like current mapping style, no matter if it's focused on pp or not. It's looking good. The old mapping style was just hit circles put in straight lines in som e patterns like single hit-single hit-fast triple hit etc. At least that's what i see watching WWW playing this game. And i honestly would never play maps like those.

[@insop6432]

Fast sliders deserves more pp amd star rating imo.

[@larc6534]

u should make senya pp maps

[@mooshiros7053]

i usually play for fun but sometimes im iching for a pp fc

[@danilo.354]

Peppy points

[@chaoticneutral1090]

I play for fun and totally didn't hit a wall a year ago Also nice hit that 10 min mark but got demonetized anyway :^)

[@HexaHvH]

PP farm maps have some use. For me who try to make himslef faster i play pp farming maps cuz thats the current diffiulty what i have to beat to go for harder maps.

[@potatotremo2205]

I only play hard maps to improve my skills, a lot of misses :u

[@ronandasylvo]

Congrats with the 10 minute mark

[@Static-EN-]

it's actually very informative for me so shush

[@Blahboobah]

My favorite button is f2 It's the random button