Convergent Evolution Beyond Earth? | Other Worlds #3

[@LimeyLassen]

It's interesting to think about the possibility space of evolution as a map of hills and valleys. A valley represents the most optimal solution to a problem, and the hills are the barriers of what's feasible. Like how insects backed themselves into a corner optimizing life at a small scale so much, they could get bigger but they can't do it in a way that's competitive at this point. Makes you wonder what options are unavailable to our own species but could be an option for other intelligent races.

[@Mark-rc4wz]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaCueYFnlpyqsJo

[@alvaroacwellan9051]

Then look how some groups of these very insects started to form super-organisms to overcome their limits. Possibilities, again.

[@bjd1980]

Never understood the difference between parallel and convergence so well! Great job!!!!!!!

[@genericalfishtycoon3853]

With things like the Fibonacci sequence appearing so many times across so many different classifications of species, I imagine there would be recognizable patterns or body parts in alien anatomy if it's out there. Even if it was some gaseous super-colony of sentient microbes, I'd be willing to bet you would see some familiar fractal pattern or something in how they represented themselves.

[@LimeyLassen]

To my understanding, the reason we see fractal patterns in life is because DNA is linear code, and fractals are the most efficient way to turn 1d code into 2d structure. But would aliens necessarily use a linear code?

[@Phrenotopia]

Good points both of you! More for me to take into consideration on this issue.

[@genericalfishtycoon3853]

@@LimeyLassen Hah, won't know until we know on the DNA, but even if they didn't, I guarantee something would be familiar. Patterns we see in living things are seen in the cosmic scale and atomic scale for example. One of my kitties has a pattern on his hip that looks just a spiral galaxy, and a M on his forehead. I've got a small meteorite in my collection that looks like it has a perfect human face. Lol Anyways, just seems there's always some familiar recognizable pattern, by coincidence or by design, no matter how far or how close we look out there.

[@genericalfishtycoon3853]

@@Phrenotopia Thanks Phren, glad our comments could get you thinking! Your videos always get me deep in thought. Keep up the great work man! 👍

[@pedroavellarcosta9389]

@@LimeyLassen fractal is paramount in bridging dimentions. miniminzing volume over surface area, for exemple. is a very simple and physical constrain, and appears repeatedly because is a simple solution.

[@JoseELeon]

i love the idea of using a convination of convergence and divergence to create interesting alien designs

[@allthelittleworms]

I agree with almost everything said in this video, and I think it's something that a lot of people overlook when it comes to speculation about alien life. I really appreciate you speaking up about this! I typed up this paragraph when I first saw the title of the video because I wanted to speak my peace but you've essentially said everything I wanted to say. Here it is anyways: I also don't think aliens would resemble life on earth in any superficial way without extremely similar ancestry. Some of the examples people use for convergent evolution (sharks, dolphins, ichthyosaurs) are only possible because all of these organisms have a baseline of similar traits to begin with. Dolphins and ichthyosaurs are tetrapods, sharks are also vertebrates, all of them have dna, cells, muscles, skeletons, appendages, etc. But if you look at the other half of life on earth, most of which have very very few traits in common with the examples given, you can see that they are totally alien in comparison. Jellyfish are marine predators that stun their prey to paralyze them before eating. The filter feeding anomalocarids and baleen whales, for example, look entirely different from each other, despite having similar ecological niches, because they have wildly different ancestry. And even that considered, both anomalocarids and whales have the capability to produce the features necessary for their niches to overlap. Again, they have muscles, flesh, dna, cells, etc. This just goes to show, similar niche =/= similar body plan without similar ancestry. All in all I think it's really quite naive to say that convergent evolution would apply more or less the same on other planets as it does on earth. Convergent evolution is only truly possible if the organisms have the capability to evolve convergence. To assume we might see alien life forms that look like theropods or whatnot is to assume a lot about alien life based on a very narrow slice of information. I get the keyhole thing, we only know what we can see, but we must remember that much of what makes life on earth what it is was highly circumstantial, and life on other planets may have entirely different circumstances too. Perhaps the things that made life on earth possible are specific to the circumstances from which earthly life arose. Who knows; maybe most other life forms aren't even detectable with current science. Maybe some aliens are little jellybeans that explode to move around. We really have to be more creative than we are right now, in my opinion

[@Phrenotopia]

Well put! Nice to see how strongly we think in parallel (or convergent?) ways. 😄

[@dagnation9397]

I think there are some general things that are likely to evolve in a given environment. Assuming chemically similar life in a pond: Larger things need some kind of structure like a skeleton; faster moving things get streamlined; everything needs an immune system; if the ecosystem gets advanced, there will be primary producers (plants, algae, thermal vent chemical eaters) , something that eats those things (grazers), and eventually predators to eat the grazers. I'm sure there are plenty of other similar themes. Would there be a wolf? No, but in a place where lots of plant eaters live, eventually there will be predators who develop some pretty good hunting skills. On Earth, on land, for the last few million years, these roles have often been filled by cats and dogs. In the past that might have been members of the tyrannosaurus family. If you squint a little, the do look a lot alike. P.S, In Star Trek there were suggestions of purposeful panspermia, both by the Q at the birth of life in the galaxy (in the form of some DNA sampled from a human) and by some old-timey race that have plain faces and wear robes (they spread humanoids on a bunch of different planets).

[@quintinscreaturecorner899]

Amazing video! Keep up the fabulous work!

[@Phrenotopia]

Thank you so much!

[@ericvulgate]

I love this subject matter. I suggested Issac Arthur do a video on this very thing.

[@tsgreg1]

Still patiently waiting for Other Worlds #4 and Alien Biosphere Evolution #9 🥲

[@iivin4233]

I'm disappointed I can't watch part 2 right now. That's a good sign.

[@janisleimanis7080]

We will find crabs

[@Antiling_the_Squidkid]

Cordala system

[@Antiling_the_Squidkid]

Cordala system

[@PaleyDaley]

Thank you thank you! I am always trying to explain this when having discussions with people who think convergent evolution is 'magic' that will make aliens look humanoid.

[@ChrissieBear]

4:33 That clip doesn't exemplify convergent evolution though, that entire scene is an ancient alien hologram explaining that their species pre-programmed the humanoid form into the genetics of primordial life on thousands of planets in order to intentionally create sapient life that looks like them.

[@thumper8684]

I heard somewhere that animal life need not develop on other planets. Other types of photosynthesis are possible that do not produce oxygen. If these dominate early evolution, the atmosphere would remain unsuited to animals. I don't know if this is anything you could say anything solid about.

[@PeterDanielBerg]

well other types of respiration are possible that don't require oxygen either. e.g. methanosarcina barkeri turns carbon dioxide and hydrogen into methane and water. i bet there are conditions where that could sustain macroscopic animal life. life finds a way

[@westongarner-qo2ez]

480th like!👍 Awesome video!🤘

[@michaljanovsky8966]

Awesome video! Can't wait for the next one. It's a great food for thought as someone designing a speculative biology project.

[@quintinscreaturecorner899]

Oh also, so you're aware, elephant shrews aren't related to whales, they're more closely related to manatees, elephants and hyraxes. I know you were trying to use that as an example for your convergent evolution video

[@Phrenotopia]

Did you watch the video at high speed!? 😅 I just published 5 minutes ago! Anyways, all life is ultimately related, but my point is that elephant shrews are more closely related to whales than to marsupial dunnarts. 🙂

[@quintinscreaturecorner899]

@@Phrenotopia Gotcha. My bad 😂😂😊. But still great video

[@needfoolthings]

"Aren't related" is ALWAYS, ALWAYS the wrong choice of words.

[@iCherrryyt]

Cant wait to watch!!!

[@Mark-rc4wz]

then how about kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaCueYFnlpyqsJo

[@claytonhalligan2067]

There were multiple types of humans 200,000 years ago but we killed or outcompeted all of them

[@Phrenotopia]

They were from the same stock, so not convergently evolved.

[@kfcroc18]

1:50 One could argue that most of the Vertebrate's on Earth are humanoid.

[@jamesgabor9284]

It would probably be more accurate to say that humans are ‘tetrapoidal’ or something along those lines.

[@chrisgaming9567]

Where can I find the chart at 0:45?

[@Phrenotopia]

It's not really a chart but a wide audience "The Tree of Life" evolution poster.

[@Antiling_the_Squidkid]

Cordala system

[@JoseELeon]

i think the chapters in the video that display on the bottom are for another video...

[@Phrenotopia]

Whoops!!! Thanks for pointing out! 😅

[@pendox99]

such impressive coherent thought and communication.....thank you

[@akabeni_mj]

Looking forward to the next video on basic life forms!!!

[@OdinComposer]

Excellent video! Really looking forward to the nest one!!

[@Dedicatedfollower467]

incredible video, as always. i love the way you explain things!

[@lexibyday9504]

My belief with convergent evolution is that the simplest bodies on earth (jellyfish, starfish, snails) are definately on the majority of life sustaining planets, instances of convergent evolution we see on earth between completely unrelated creatures (fish, dolphins, icthiosaurs or birds, bats, pterosaurs) are probable, and precific earth creatures (human, horse, tyranosaur) will never apear anywhere else.

[@idle_speculation]

Not too sure about starfish given how utterly insane echinoderms are anatomically and developmentally. Like, they start out as bilateral larvae until the radial head region tears the larva apart from the inside and then lives out its life as its own organism.

[@lexibyday9504]

@@idle_speculation I still think that could happen anywhere but maybe earth is the only planet where the starfish shape and lifecycle occured in the same animal

[@Phrenotopia]

Vertebrates are actually not completely unrelated hence the need for the term "parallel evolution"

[@needfoolthings]

The reasons why fictional aliens are almost always humanoid is, guess what, relatibility and movie budget.

[@fedoralexandersteeman6672]

No way! 😮 kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpzFeqJ7rZygo8U

[@benquoyeser4401]

Phrenotopia please make a alternate history documentary about Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Greenland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway and Sweden as one country with one currency with Murmansk, Karelia, Leningrad, Saint Petersburg, Novgorod, Tver, Arkhangelsk, Vologda and Pskov. I want each of the 8 countries to speak Old Norse and all of Canada belongs to this country I call it Vikings. I want to see what would happen if these 9 countries is country. What would happen if Scandinavia has all of Canada and several Caribbean Islands thanks 🥺👍👍

[@MycobraII]

If we ever meet alien life chances are high we will meet an AI robot of some kind sent by the host species as they are probably the only 'being' able to traverse interstellar space.

[@Dragrath1]

Good coverage on this topic its an important nuance that tends to get lost in complex subjects like this including the importance of molecular machinery in determining the evolutionary trajectories. One additional factor that really adds to the complexity is polyploidy or full genome duplication often occurring as a consequence of hybridization. It is quite rare in animals largely because any such hybrid is likely going to be genetically incompatible with its parent species however based on comparing genomes of extant lifeforms reveals that on rare occasions these have played critical roles in shaping the trajectory of life. Bilaterians are probably the best example of this as in this case we know one of the major genetic factors which enabled the lifestyle shift the chemical gradients associated with HOX genes and genome duplication providing a second copy to work with. In effect it added a second dimension which allowed more complex tissue differentiation during development than the stem cnidarian relatives which we descend from. ancestors. Radial symmetry is really the best you can do with one chemical gradient in terms of telling what cells should do during embryonic development if your only other signal is the relative timing of cell divisions or similar. Once you add a 3rd degree of freedom your options really open up enabling much more complex body plans that can better explore the morphological space of complexity. We know radial symmetry occurred at least twice independently but the two examples of radial symmetry giving rise to bilateral symmetry in some form bilaterians and the anthozoan cnidarians both effectively stumbled on the same solution in parallel even if they subsequently have diverged from each other considerably. It is this connection between parallel paths leading to very different outcomes which helps bolster the importance of this example. For example in Anthozoan corals there planula stage is free living able to swim and feed meaning it isn't dependent solely on the nutrients within its egg and thus can disperse farther from its parents. As adults however they only make limited use of this increased capacity for complexity however this may be more of an ecological constraint than anything since bilaterians were already around when that latter mutation occurred.

[@ericvulgate]

There might not be a common ancestor to us off world, But we will share the same physics, which will dictate similar solutions to similar challenges everywhere life exists. I think that implies intelligences will be similar to us in shape for similar reasons. Form follows Function.

[@jamesgabor9284]

This is a pretty flawed world view, and you should really take into consideration many of the points brought up in the video (as in, it may be highly improbable that our bauplan could even occur on aliens with different biologies, they may not have a spine, legs as we know them, etc) But instead of just telling you to rewatch the video, here is some proof on Earth that intelligence arises in any, or at least vastly different, body plans. The best examples of life we have on earth are from different body plans. One group, primates, have a very similar, human-esk body plan (although it would be more accurate to describe our body as primate-esk), another mammal known for its intelligence and language are porpoises, notably orcas which can communicate with language, and of course they have a much different body plan even though they share a common ancestor. Another vertebrate example we might consider are birds like parrots or corvids, which display an extreme amount of intelligence and problem-solving skills not found in most animals or birds, and they have achieved this not only without arms, but with much smaller brains and little means to manipulate objects. All of these examples heil in comparison to cephalopods like the octopus, which has the most distantly related ancestor, and is also one of the most intelligent animals on Earth, being that it problem-solves, plays, is curious, etc. Another example are ants which aren’t traditionally intelligent, but as a colony can do much of the things that so called ‘higher life’ can, and can recognize themselves in mirrors. it’s close minded to think that these animals are the outliers when, in fact, there is much more variety in all of these species and groups of organisms than there is throughout the history of the ‘homo’ genus. And it goes to show that aliens which share no relation to us would have much stranger or more different bauplans than that of tetrapods to the cephalopods.

[@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8]

"Form follows function" and yet out bodies are deeply flawed pieces of machinery, and evolution shapes things via serendipity and chance and not to human sensibility. Take for instance the spine that will stress and ache easily despite the fact we adapted to walk on the open savannag, the fact we get cancer at any age, not just 60, the neck that can snap painfully and instantly to things many, ending a life beyond quickly. Our technology that defines us as well is not form follows function, but more form shaped by the function that follows the form, our tools are shaped to use and perceive via human hands and senses, on a human scale and are formed to the function in a way such that our form can use. To think that intelligent creatures will automatically look like us is folly that ignores the circumstances of our evolution and disregards other paths to similar destinations. Take orcas, smart enough to communicate with one another in highly complex manners considered at times as a language too foreign for us apes to decipher, yet have bodies shaped rather different to our own. It's like saying that since one road leads to a gas station that all roads that lead to a gas station will be quite similar to that one. When in reality they are often not, due to the circumstances the road is created on and its development over time.

[@rexmann1984]

Convergent evolution is a must at the Intelligent life form scale because of the needs for high tech. Brains are very expensive. That's why even though ants have been evolving for millions of years they are no smarter than what they are because the cost for a bigger brain and the slight advantage it would give them is outweighed by the extra calories needed to run it. Which means what we run into out there will have as few appendages as possible and their brain will be separated from the rest of the body so it can stay cool. Which leads me to believe they will be very close to humanoid in shape. As far as other life on their planet, it could be whatever we cannot fathom. But at the end of the day whatever chemistry they use brain power will be expensive and force them in a particular direction that will likely have similarities to us.

[@PeterDanielBerg]

the mormyridae fish have a brain to body mass ratio very close to that of humans and they're basically locked into an electric eel niche in lake tanganyika. intelligence doesnt mean you get to use tools, sometimes you get a raw deal!

[@rexmann1984]

@@PeterDanielBerg are you agreeing with me?

[@rvoight92]

My non-expert opinion is that humanoid aliens are possible, but not necessary. A hyper intelligent species would need a way to move around, interact with their environment, and sense their surroundings. 2 legs, 2 arms, and a head on top is one solution. However, it may be a bit anthropomorphic to assume that it's the only solution. In the end, there's really no way to know until we actually encounter multiple alien species.