The difference between Arabic and Turkish Quartertones/Half-flats/Microtones

Easy Oud Songs
learn.oudforgu...
Oud Foundation Program
learn.oudforgu...

[@robertbecker3595]

Navid your knowledge is so comprehensive and you are so generous in the way that you share it with us. I learned more from this video than I have in a long time. Thank you so much for your kindness. I will watch this many times until I have fully understood it.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Hi Robert, you are most welcome. Thanks for always commenting. I found a podcast that I think you will really enjoy. I'll message you with a link.

[@clh6879]

Regarding your question in your blog post about the intervals of Rast, there seems to be evidence that the third degree used to be flatter in the past. But we may say that at least around 1800s, it was sharper than an exact quartertone. Villoteau described the scale of Rast as performed in Egypt as a scale on D, where the third and sixth degrees are a third tone sharper, which means a major scale where the "quartertones" are actually about a sixth tone flatter (~ 367 cents). Plus, Mikhail Mishaqqa, to whom the 24TET quartertone scale is attributed, wrote that the octave division as done by the Orthodox church was more accurate. He refers to the scale formulated by Chrysanthos of Madytos in early 19th century, where the octave is divided into 68 steps. 12 steps from C to D, 9 steps from D to E, 7 from E to F. When you do the maths, the C-E third is 371 cents wide. It would be safe to assume that the Turkish intervals of Rast were not lower than that, possibly about 365-375 cents.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Fascinating.

[@robertkingmusic]

Hearing Turkish Rast transports me immedially back to Ilâhi songs at a Sufi "Sema" gathering in Turkey... I think I never consciously realised that it wasn't quite a western major scale at the time... but it's a very specific feeling, very evocative memory association!

[@OudforGuitarists]

Cool. Great memory aid.

[@gregoryn7745]

Navid, this was an extremely informative video. Largely because you referenced the degree (cents) flat or sharp using your tuner. Almost never is this done on instructive videos. The comparison of Arabic and Turkish styles of playing the same piece was very effective (your musicianship really showed). Thank you for this video. I'd like to see more like this from you.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Hi Gregory, I'm glad you enjoyed this. The next two videos are going to discuss more intonation stuff like this. Good to hear you find it valuable. That means I'm on the right track.

[@CloveCoast]

Couldnt agree more, I’m so glad I found this channel! Clears it all up

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@CloveCoast thanks for your comment!

[@bluebellbeatnik4945]

this info is everywhere for people who make music on computer using arabic or turkish maqm. you should get a DAW.

[@testerbleck]

Nice, very informative! The chords you played in the Muhayyer saz semai made it sound like Medieval lute music for those brief moments.

[@Ukraine_Rocks-OK]

Amazing... New horizons in my musical education.

[@cmyk8964]

Is this lowered E note the reason why that one Nokia ringtone sounds how it does?

[@zulkifliramli8022]

This is really informative. Thanks Navid!

[@amirsharifi7521]

This was an splendid video, Navid! Thanks for the great info. It's hard to learn the differences as there is very little material out there.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Glad you enjoyed. Thanks for watching.

[@michaeljaguardumdum]

I want to send a huge thanks for ALL of your videos. This is actually my personal favorite of all the ones I've seen so far, because you bridge so clearly a gap in my understanding that until now I thought I would never be able to bridge -- clarifying how and to what extent different traditions tune their quarter tones differently, particularly with the values in cents that you provide, and how this differs on the way up vs. down and even at the end of the phrase, and how it differs for different maqams.

[@OudforGuitarists]

I'm happy to hear that. But do take the cents comparison lightly as it can never be absolutely precise. Just don't get hung up on it. In the end, trust your ear.

[@saadalazmi2703]

Navid ure a great person thank you for this content brother

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks for watching and commenting Saad.

[@justaddcorn]

Outstanding work

[@CloveCoast]

This video and your past video from 6 years ago have been VITAL in my search for answers on the quarter-tonal differences in Maqam. Now I’m not an Oud player, I play keys and other strings. But I’ve been very interested in composing Maqam types of score/songs, and making an ableton virtual Oud & Saz with the music theory that you’re teaching! Knowing how to descern those different nationalities in Maqam is super eye-opening. Your list that spreads it out into 3 nationalities in the difference of cents on that 2nd scale degree, is super comprehensive and nice to have all those differences so concisely! No one else has uploaded better reference material, it’s so much easier to understand and the national differences are clear on that note. Thank you! I will buy an Oud eventually, it’s a long list but I want one so bad!! 100% gonna do it though

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks for your comment!

[@sanamusic]

Very good video thank you

[@OudforGuitarists]

You are welcome

[@lynx777]

That was FANTASTIC!!!!

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks!

[@cameronpowers]

Very nice... The detailed descriptions in my Harmonic Secrets of Arabic Music of which I sent you a copy a couple of years ago goes into the multiple justly intonated intervals which can make each tonal choice from each culture leap out and sound great... all ultimately based in the real science of acoustic physics... hopefully you took a look at that book and found it interesting/useful... The beauty of the Middle Eastern Musician's art of deep listening is that we eventually learn to actually hear the approximately 58 most commonly used just intervals in maqam-based music. The mystery around precise finger positioning on the oud or violin vanishes and is replaced with near-certainty... Keep up your prolific and wonderful work! You are consistently creating beautiful teaching materials and performances! Thanks again! Cameron Powers

[@OudforGuitarists]

Hi Cameron, It was very kind of you to send those books to me. I really enjoyed the Nay book. I have recommended them to others. Here is the link to the Maqam Book in case anyone is interested. www.amazon.com/Harmonic-Secrets-Arabic-Music-Scales/dp/1933983191

[@gregoryn7745]

Cameron, I have your book. It has been very very helpful to me. I have several source books that I use in my studies of middle-eastern music, and your is one of the few go-to books. Great job! Thank you. It's nice to have this opportunity to communicate with you!

[@cameronpowers]

@@gregoryn7745 Wonderful to hear! Wishing you super musical fun!

[@kasunmaduwage2316]

Thank you!

[@Zaphod313]

This was a fine presentation! One note: that E in the Turkish version was a bit too sharp. You should aim for at least a just major third from the tonic, meaning E -14 cents: preferably even lower than that in the case of makam Rast. The just third is used in makam Segâh, where E is the tonic, while in Rast it may be played when the melody gravitates towards or stops on the 3rd degree. When I play, I'm personally always drawn to a ~30 cents flat E in descending phrases. If you make a suspended cadence on Dügâh (D), you can go even further and lower the E by about 45 cents. Check out the song "Ben küskünüm feleğe" as a great example of the behaviour of the note Segâh in Turkish music.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks for the song suggestion.

[@akinoz]

Great video.

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks!

[@cia6858]

Thanks 🙏🏿

[@PetrosArgy]

This was fascinating for me to see and hear. I grew up listening to a lot of Turkish (and Greek) music, but never learned to play any of it or the theory behind it. My dad played bouzouki and had a band that played Greek and Turkish music, as well as an incredible collection of records. I've always prefered the sound of Turkish to most Arabic music, and this video helped me get a little better understanding of why that is. To me, the Turkish style seems more "colorful" in the way it expresses the notes with edging closer to what your ear wants to hear whereas the Arabic style sounds more rigidly off key, as though it were following rules rather than adding emotions like yearning, longing, or heartache which I hear in the Turkish style. Interestingly, although the difference seems slight, to me it sounds as though the Arabic versions were transposed to a minor key compared the the Turkish ones. I know that's not what's actually happening, but the difference is that noticeable to me.

[@ZakariaAli-v2w]

Also I read a comment a while ago where they said that Arabic Oud players employ more right hand techniques like with rhythms and Turkish Oud players focus on finger plucking carpma for instance and trills compared to Arabic Oud players I think 🤔

[@OudforGuitarists]

There are absolutely differences in the way they play the Oud too, but it's a big discussion.

[@tudormardare66]

Great videos! You could check Byzantine music and notation. Byzantine notation is just perfect for Middle Eastern Music. Instead of noting pitches like Western staff notation, we write neumes, meaning changes in relation to notes. We use 72-EDO for our octave division instead of 24-EDO, and it can cover intervals a lot better. In fact, it may be the best universal notation for music, on top of heptaphony, it also covers diphony, triphony, tetraphony, and pentaphony, and can adapt even to less usual ones very easily, like hexaphony or other types of scales. Most Middle Eastern Maqamat are already part of Byzantine music, but have different names.

[@OudforGuitarists]

I'd love to learn more about Byzantine music. But I don't understand the obsession with any equal temperament system. How is any temperament system relevant to Byzantine music?

[@tudormardare66]

@@OudforGuitarists The equal temperament is useful for instruments such as the tambur or the kanonaki (qanun), due to fixed strings. When one wants to change the key in a song on an instrument with only Harmonic intervals, the instrument will go out of tune, whereas in equal temperament, all notes are equally out of tune, and you can play the song on any key. Western 12-edo is terrible, and really out of tune for the major seconds (+-30 cents), whereas 72-edo diverges from the Harmonic series with 5 cents at most, the difference being unnoticeable. Equal Temperament for the voice is almost useless, as the vocal chords are not limited to a small number of notes, and can produce small differences easily. This also applies to the Oud and the violin, as they can produce any microtonal interval. Still, it is useful for the Oud and violin players to know to adapt to a kanonaki, and switch from just intonation to equal temperament, when you have an orchestra, to avoid dissonance.

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@tudormardare66 I see why I didn't understand. My background is fundamentally in Persian music and the frets on the Setar and Tar are moveable so we adjust them for each dastgah and key changes. Like the old days, we still play a set of music in one key, or one dastgah. The ability to be able to adjust based on one's taste and circumstances wins over convenience, at least in my experience.

[@AlexandrosT1]

Great vdeo! As a Greek, I find Arabic Sikah very strange. I just cannot get used to it hahaha. Too used to Segah I guess :)

[@OudforGuitarists]

Interesting feeling isn't it. You'll have to force it down your throat for a while before it starts to jive with you. I had a similar experience with Turkish intervals.

[@salthepal]

Anwar hariri has stated on his channel that the e (mi) half flat is different between rast do and bayati re - EDIT: this is literally one of the the first things naveed says in the video

[@OudforGuitarists]

Yes, indeed. Thanks for watching. Can you share Anwar's channel here?

[@muaiyadshabana8854]

@@OudforGuitarists kzbin.info

[@a.hammad9194]

@@OudforGuitarists better late than never? youtube.com/@anwarhariri

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@a.hammad9194 I have always enjoyed Anwar's channel. It's fantastic.

[@a.hammad9194]

@@OudforGuitarists indeed it is. as is yours, my friend!

[@tm2bow653]

Hi. Could you make a video explaining the difference between Turkish Ayak and Turkish makam?

[@OudforGuitarists]

what is Turkish Ayak?

[@tm2bow653]

@@OudforGuitarists Hi. Actually in Turkish folk music, modes were called ayak not makam. In the past makam was used for the ottoman multiethnic and cosmopolitan music, and ayak in folk popular music. Now makam is considered more ''noble''. Many people say makam and ayak are the same, but as far as I know they were not. Turkish education system promoted the makam theory as modified by Turkish theorists Arel Ezgi and Uzdilek, and the influence of this state education system (and this theory) is so huge that all other systems are despised now and many Turks consider makam should be used instead of ayak and/or that ayak should be played like makam.

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@tm2bow653 ah yes, the term for modes in Turkish folk music... I don't know much about the folk modes, their uses, terms etc. The history of the term Makam/maqam is interesting. It was not used to discuss music before the 15th century. We have other terms like sho'be, avaz, etc to describe the modes. I'm not a fan of the developments in the 20th century like Arel Ezgi that sought to reorganize everything.

[@tm2bow653]

@@OudforGuitarists Yes. Turkish theorists wanted everything to be organized the ''academic way'' (their own way). They were jealous of their western colleagues maybe.

[@tm2bow653]

@@OudforGuitarists And you know what, if you could explain in a video what has been reorganized by Arel and Ezgi, I'm sure that it would be interesting for a lot of people. Keep up the good work

[@malthus101]

hi - what are the colourful pattern cutouts in the sound-hole made of? Plastic? Wood? Shell? Thanks!

[@OudforGuitarists]

Mother of pearl. Thanks.

[@world_musician]

Fascinating subject! Have you ever talked with a Qanun player about this? Do Turkish Qanun and Arabic Qanun have a different amount of mandasl to account for the difference in semitones? It would be interesting to hear how different Qanun players use the mandal positions for the same maqam across different regions and times. Like a Turkish Qanun playing Rast would have x mandals sharpening the 3rd degree while an Arabic Qanun playing Rast would have less. I wonder if anyone has ever thought of using the mandal positions of Qanun to catalog the various semitonal preferences across the Middle East. It would be easier because there is no ambiguity about where the mandal is unlike guessing where the finger presses the note on the oud. Subsequently there would be no guessing about how many cents sharp or flat a note is using a Qanun. Maybe even a similar comparison could be made with Persian santoor tunings. Time to get my phd in ethnomusicology haha

[@OudforGuitarists]

Arabic and Turkish Qanun do have different number of mandals. As far as I know, in performance situations you would have to conform to the qanun/santour pitches available, but using the qanun is challenging because it is more rigid. I'm curious about this too. Another interesting question would be this floating tonality in older Ottoman music where they used different instruments like Chang which were must have been very rigid in tonality. They wouldn't be able to easily adjust depending on the direction of melody. However, we do know that qanuns used finger pressure techniques to change the pitch before mandals came into use, so it could be something like that. I feel the need for more research on this too. But I'd much rather be playing music, ;)

[@clh6879]

Turkish qanuns mostly have 12 of them per course of three strings, dividing a semitone into 6 parts. This effectively means 72 edo or something close to that, though some levers get skipped so not all notes have the full array of mandals. According to a comparative study, qanun teaching materials say that the third degree (segah) ought be played with a single lever down in maqam Rast, which means a major third of 383 cents (23 steps of 72 edo). Though some add that an additional lever could be flipped (depending on things like melodic attraction or historically authentic performance), then it's about 367 cents.

[@world_musician]

@@clh6879 Very interesting! What comparative study is this? I'd like to look up how many mandals are down for second note of Bayati and Saba

[@clh6879]

@@world_musician I read it quite a while ago and I don't seem to find it back. It's written in Turkish though. If I'm not mistaken, Arabic Bayati corresponds to multiple Turkish maqams differing in their melodic paths, one of which is also called Beyati. What they have in common is that they all have D (dügah) as their tonic and the interval D - Ed is narrower than in Rast, from 12/11 to 11/10 (150 to 165 cents). Which means 2 or 3 mandals down.

[@world_musician]

@@clh6879 I assumed they would be flatter than 1 mandal like Rast 3rd! What about second note of Saba?

[@hoomanhasannezhad804]

It really helps thanks for the great job♠️👏do you speak persian?

[@OudforGuitarists]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed. بله

[@hoomanhasannezhad804]

@@OudforGuitarists به به خیلی مخلصیم آقا کلاساتون ماهانه قیمتش چقد و من از ایران می‌تونم پرداخت کنم‌ یا نه؟

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@hoomanhasannezhad804 شاید نمیتونی پرداخت کنید الان با تحریم ها که هست. ایمیل به [e-mail] کن من راه حل دارم.

[@nicogetz]

Thank you very much for this, Navid! As a guitar player trying to learn the oud, your channel has a wealth of helpful resources! I am half Armenian, and as you probably know, the Armenian interpretation of maqam is similar to the Turkish interpretation, with notes played slightly sharper when ascending and slightly flatter when descending... with my ear alone, however, it is sometimes very difficult to tell EXACTLY how much sharper or flatter it should be, and this is very helpful. The qanun has more or less quantized microtones, no? (each mandal is about one comma, right?) So players from different regions will have their mandals flipped in different ways, and in the Turkish interpretation will have to flip a few mandals depending on whether ascending or descending in certain maqams, right, but this might also vary by region? Any more videos on maqmat in general, especially the Turkish interpretation, would be amazing!! Please keep up the good work!

[@OudforGuitarists]

I'm glad you're finding it useful. However, the koma system is to be taken with a grain of salt. The komas used in practice are different than in the theory which makes everything more convoluted. Ultimately, when playing with a qanun you have to conform to the intonation the qanun is using.

[@clh6879]

In the most common Turkish qanun layout, there are 12 of them per course of three strings, dividing a semitone into 6 parts. This effectively means 72 edo or something close to that, though some levers get skipped so not all notes have the full array of mandals. So flipping a single lever alters the pitch by about 17 cents. This clashes with the commonly taught idea that a tone is made up 9 Holdrian commas (22.64 cents, step size of 53 edo).

[@azizmouhib482]

Where can I buy a professional arabic oud in usa? Thank u in advance

[@bluebellbeatnik4945]

how do you have a tuner that shows the cents? i can only use my DAW (FL Studio) for that

[@OudforGuitarists]

Sound corset tuner and metronome shows the note and how many cents sharp or flat.

[@nobir7631]

İn turkish music frets are not static?

[@OudforGuitarists]

Yes, on their fretted instruments they make sure they have enough frets to account for all the intonation changes.

[@muaiyadshabana8854]

Great video, but don't get me wrong there is buzzy sound coming from this oud

[@OudforGuitarists]

It's the F note on the D string. This happens to all the Ouds I've owned especially when you play them as much as I do. But also these Turkish Ozten strings I'm using aggravate the issue too. I'm looking forward to getting my #daddario strings back on here. Those are smoother. Thanks for watching man.

[@athanasioshasapis8729]

@@OudforGuitarists What strings do you think are best for the turkish oud?

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@athanasioshasapis8729 I have only tried Daddario strings for Turkish Oud.

[@nobir7631]

Oud had made by yıldırım palabıyık?

[@OudforGuitarists]

Indeed.

[@robabnawaz]

ِI guess u use an oud from Izmir, right?

[@OudforGuitarists]

Yes, usually these days. I have some other ouds that are stuck in another country.

[@robabnawaz]

@@OudforGuitarists I bought from the same maker. Cool stuff.

[@OudforGuitarists]

@@robabnawaz Yildirim Palabiyik? Yes, do you like it?

[@robabnawaz]

@@OudforGuitarists Ah, no, mine was made by Aydin Tutak from Bornova in Izmir. Here I play his Lavta the day I got it. You see, our designs are nearly identical. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWqbgZemhtWKhcU and kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmGqmoCEYtB_g9U

[@YK-BCS-KY]

arabic sounded better, to be honest.

[@OudforGuitarists]

I am also partial to Arabic and Persian intonation as opposed to ottoman.