Here's What Happened After The "They Don't Work In The Cold" Video | Episode 103

‪@brandenflasch‬ and ‪@KyleConner‬ provide an update on the cold weather charging video that aired on ‪@OutofSpecReviews‬
Find us on all of these places:
KZbin: / outofspecpodcast
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple...
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Amazon: music.amazon.c...
For further inquiries please email [e-mail]
#ev #charging #dcfc

[@dwbogardus]

As an electrical engineer, I've had some experience with designing electronics equipment that has to function properly in cold circumstances. Many years ago, I discovered the hard way that some electronic components, particularly some electrolytic capacitors, severely degrade in both capacitance and ESR (Effective Series Resistance), when they get much below freezing. Many of them contain a liquid electrolyte, which no longer works well when frozen. (They work fine again when they warm up.) I had to switch to a different type of capacitor in one of my designs, in order to pass our stringent environmental tests. Fortunately, we did our evaluation and validation testing before releasing the product. Apparently, not everybody does. ;-)

[@mattys8525]

You need to apply at EA and go straighten them out... LOL

[@fitybux4664]

A cabinet heater near the sensitive parts, that works off of discrete components, seems like it would fix some of these issues. 😆 (It does have me wondering if they use the coolant loops in some of these cables for heating also.) Basically: tl;dr: they seem like they were built down to a price, and the spec (temp/humidity/isolation/heating/cooling/etc) was not appropriate for the climate these are installed in. Even if it's very expensive to run a cabinet heater 24/7, much better to tell the user on the screen or app: "Charger temp too cold. Heater will run for 10 minutes..... 9 minutes..... etc."

[@smarticus6384]

Maybe a simple cabinet heater would solve some of these issues. Most already have a cooling circuit.

[@TheWizardofWestLA]

Yes very true. Also a lot of ICs involving GATEs and switches do not function well in the cold. You have to do a part search/test for cold temperatures.

[@50cts]

From my experience as field service engineer for different chargers, I have the feeling that especially in the early days both car and charger manufacturer didn’t really test extensive enough in hot or cold conditions. But still today I have the feeling not everyone is taking testing their products properly during developing serious. Some have heaters for cold conditions, others don’t. Some even have chiller modules to cool the chargers below ambient temperature in hot environments. Also interoperability for cars seems to be tested not enough. From the cars Kia EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq5 were pretty much useless in the winter on DCFC during winter in the beginning. Even after 300 km drive they still don’t really go far above 100 kW for the whole session. They just „forgot“ about the battery heating. Meanwhile it’s fixed afaik but still shows the lack of testing imo.

[@Harrythehun]

As a asset owner for a CPO, the biggest problem is that the managers and majority of CPO employees don’t own or do road trip with electric cars. Those has no clue about anything, from purchase, to usability, technology choices, site planning, to maintenance, to amenities and services, customer service. Quite big hill to climb!

[@wolfgangpreier9160]

I recommend Teslas, they are currently really cheap!

[@xtreme666bio]

That's sad. There's nothing worse than leaders who are out of touch and all their trusted sources are also out of touch. It seems like so many Tesla higher-ups drive Teslas or other electric cars regularly.

[@williamelkington5430]

That is absolutely no excuse. I worked in an Aerospace and Defense company for many years. I wasn’t in the military, at the time. (I was before, but that’s another story.) I didn’t fly airplanes at the time. But I sure made sure my customers were taken care of. CPOs are putting customers at risk routinely in very significant ways. They should be sued repeatedly by customers until they provide reasonable and safe service.

[@sak123utube]

What does CPO mean ?

[@williamelkington5430]

@@sak123utube Charge Point Operator. These are companies that provide electric and maintenance services for level 2 and level 3 dispensing/charging equipment.

[@minaguta4147]

Love the new hyperfocus on charging. Thanks to you both for making a difference.

[@anthony_j67]

Unfortunately got stuck in Memphis recently due to EA and 2 other dc faster chargers being down. I've hit many charging issues in my 7 years of owning an EV, but this was the first time I got completely stranded. I had to get a hotel while waiting on a slow L2 charger. I can handle the charging issues, but it drives my wife crazy. She refuses to go on road trips in a CCS vehicle anymore. Really frustrating that we're still facing these issues in 2023. I just placed an order for a Tesla model Y.

[@patrickbateman8627]

My friend works for the installation team for EA. I asked if EA does any testing when they commission a new site. He said no. They just look at a few things remotely and that’s it. They don’t have a team to have an actual car test each cable to be sure without a doubt it is working. So I guess this is what happens.

[@roberth5435]

First requirement for the maintenance folks: eat your own dogfood. That means dispatching folks in EVs only. That would allow them to dump the suitcase tester.

[@Vxvx22]

It is just mind blowing that new sites are Never tested to see if it works or not.

[@brandenflasch]

We just want working charging!

[@THEFlea1991]

What did you expect, goofy? Efficient charging in wet, very cold weather? 😆 For EV batteries? Freezing weather ffs lmao

[@bnkwupt]

@@THEFlea1991 try to keep up. The issue is the chargers not working - at all - in the cold, not that the batteries are too cold to charge. This is like gas stations not working in the cold, which would be ridiculous.

[@fitybux4664]

@@bnkwupt I believe Kyle's cheap old Leaf had a cold weather charging issue. (The car itself.) In that same video though, he tried a newer Leaf and it worked. Yes, the chargers have cold weather issues. But - the car CAN have cold weather issues too. 😀

[@peteparadis1619]

ASK NORWAY.. They just said to NOT purchase anymore EV's in Norway.. LOOK IT UP.. ENJOY..

[@trevormf]

@@peteparadis1619 but, did they, though?

[@videoscrapheap]

The tech telling you that they just waited for it to warm up tells us that EA knew that the units would fail in the cold and that the issue is not field serviceable. It’s possible that they had the issue during testing but made a conscious decision to not fix it before rollout.

[@kens97sto171]

Or that EA is so disorganized internally that they just cant get it together.. Left hand not talking to right hand.. etc. Or software issues. VW STILL haven't fixed the ID4 software issues... Its like the company is so big and lumbering that they just blunder around and get nowhere. That organizational or corporate culture may trickle down into EA too. Who knows... Like they said.. if you road trip.. Buy a Tesla

[@gregkramer5588]

Yep, or never tested well which is likely IMO.

[@wpherigo1]

I agree that they probably tested it and it failed then. My suspicion is they decided that since it does work again when it warms up, that they would fix it after the units were installed instead of delaying the rollout.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@wpherigo1 If that was the case then they should have only installed units in places that never get to -20°C. So they shouldn't have installed them in Colorado.

[@fitybux4664]

@@ArtiePenguin1 there are surrounding states to Colorado that also get freezing weather.

[@mikepetersen5024]

I drove from Northern Illinois to Florida during that cold spell in my Tesla Model Y and the chargers worked every time. I had to be a bit careful and work the cables a bit because they were really stiff but other than that I new I was going to get a charge at every stop. These companies need to stop reinventing the wheel and just make it work like Tesla.

[@LCCB]

I think if any “fail to charge” event occurs, the charge provider should mark the unit yellow as “potential failure” until a successful charge occurs. It’s not always the charger’s fault (sometimes it’s the vehicle), but at least flagging something as “a charge was attempted but without success” could provide clues. This way, I could also make a determination whether to get there at 2% charge, or to plan a potential alternative.

[@afr1952]

Wow. If you choose to let your car get down to 2% before you charge at a public charger, then perhaps you're asking for problems. Drive responsibly. Or get an ICE vehicle. The network charging situation is NOT going to improve this year as the funding is not there for it. We're approaching a Govt shutdown because of funding problems. Guess what budget is gonna get cut first?

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@afr1952 I agree on running the car down to 2% is not ideal. Having only 2% battery or fuel is very risky. However, I need to correct you in regards to funding. The entire NEVI program was funded in late 2021 with the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law. So it wouldn't be affected by a government shutdown. Year 1 funding was dispersed last September 2022. The only thing that might get delayed is year 2 funding if the debt limit isn't increased by this September. Although, if that doesn't happen there are bigger issues since the US will hit the spending limit around June.

[@richf3654]

@@afr1952 ICE ?? Idiot, get a Tesla. Superchargers always work. Stop supporting inferior products and make Tesla charging the STANDARD! Stop being petty and move to support Tesla instead of tearing it down!

[@cruiser97eric1]

I once worked at a semiconductor testing facility where some of the very expensive test equipment was sensitive to humidity levels. Whenever the air conditioner vents over the equipment started blowing air the humidity was higher than normal for a short time and the equipment would start to fail the microchips being tested. When humidity returned to normal the same microchips would pass all the tests. I am confident the chargers were tested over their operating temperature range and operating humidity range. However with all the snow accumulated around (and maybe some inside) the chargers, it is possible that humidity exceeded the maximum they are rated for. That could have caused condensation to form in the wrong places causing current leaks.

[@fitybux4664]

Absolutely. And changing humidity can also cause condensation, and water from that can conduct electricity. (Or, at least cause an isolation test to fault, apparently.) Maybe if these chargers had a heater that would switch on after a failed isolation test, and a countdown on the screen.... 🤔 (Or just do proper testing / engineering for these climates. 😆)

[@PGD39able]

Thank you for bringing the issue with charging front and foremost. I hope EA and others take note and DO SOMETHING to make it better.

[@ab-tf5fl]

One thing about Bolts, they make all chargers "seem" more reliable, since even if a 350 kW charger is only dispensing 80 kW, you're still getting you're full 50 kW, and walking away a happy customer. (Of course, if a charger doesn't work at all, that's a totally different story).

[@PJMAColorado]

Met that same EA tech at the Frisco station. Super friendly and showed me the inside of the dispenser while he was rebooting it. Glad to know at least EA has a tech driving around on a holiday weekend..

[@tojesky]

Because of this lack of responsibility by EA, I traded my Bolt in on a Model X while waiting for my R1S reservation to become an order.

[@TheAdventureAuto]

You are so right about the cars being fine and now they need to work on infrastructure. I see all these CCS vehicles commercials but I would never even consider one with the current state of charging.

[@troyfall6573]

Or you could consider a Tesla with their superior charging network. After Tesla's massive tax cuts last week and federal 7500 rebate a person can get a Model 3 for around $38k. The majority of owners charge almost exclusively at home but Tesla super chargers are better quality, have less downtime and are in more locations. In many states, owners can even benefit from Tesla insurance.

[@fitybux4664]

College Humor needs to do an "Honest Car Salesman for CCS vehicles" or something. 😆 "Wouldn't you love to buy a car that works 75% at charging stations? After waiting 10 minutes just for the session to start? And where most of the chargers are broken or at 100% utilization so there are lines of cars? Imagine a future!!!"

[@troyfall6573]

@@fitybux4664 Imagine a future with $7 gasoline and a vehicle that needs 5k in maintenance and repairs in the first 120k miles. Or a vehicle that won't start when it gets too cold or fuel that freezes under the same low temps. You saying that most of the chargers are broken is equivalent to saying that most gas pumps are out of gas. Tesla charging stations have very high up time and people have not been reporting waiting lines because the software tells you how many open stations are available before you get there.

[@troyfall6573]

@@fitybux4664 You could imagine a future where you fully charge your vechilce at home while you sleep for $15 instead of driving to the gas station and paying $60 to fill up. Every morning you start your day with a full tank.

[@fitybux4664]

@@troyfall6573 I don't need to imagine that. I already do that with a PHEV. 😉 Some day, maybe EV-only. (EA will have to be a bit more reliable first. 😆)

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Yay, finally another OOS Podcast after a 2 week hiatus! Thank goodness I'm not a "normal person" since I'll be taking delivery of my CCS-equipped EV6 next week. I seriously considered a Model Y after the massive price cut but I'll be happy to adventure in the CCS charging world with the EV6 for road trips. I still hope Tesla opens up its Supercharger network since in New Mexico there are a few routes without any other DCFCs.

[@fitybux4664]

Don't you think Tesla cars will always be hated by CCS users, and CCS cars will always be hated once they work on Tesla superchargers? "Those Tesla cars. They have their own chargers. What are they doing here? 😠" It's like some sort of weird class game.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@fitybux4664 Probably in some extent yes. Moreso if the current charger people are visiting is full. As an example, Tesla drivers at Superchargers will hate slow charging Chevy Bolts being there - but that would happen if a Bolt was hogging up any full charging station. CCS drivers wouldn't be happy if Teslas are clogging up EA stations to get cheaper charging when there's an empty Supercharger down the street. About a year or two after Tesla fully opens up their Superchargers (if they do), then all this animosity should go away since there is no more exclusive charging network. So people won't say "why is this car here, they have their own chargers". Just look to Norway in Europe, most Superchargers are open to non-Teslas and it's common to see a non-Tesla charging at one.

[@brucebarry2354]

It’s time to invite an EV executive onto your show. Hold their feet to the flames.

[@TechnicalLee]

They want nothing to do with Kyle anymore…

[@SkaBob]

They should add a button on the screen to report charger issue, then it will show it will show it as unavailable or at least say problem reported if your looking at availably so you can go someplace else if all the chargers in one place all say problem reported.

[@brianbeasley7270]

The most important phrase out of this: "If you plan to travel anywhere, don't buy a CCS based car at this point." For all practical purposes, this leaves a Tesla as the only real choice since ChaDemo is becoming archaic.

[@ricardod70]

I have been watching Kyle now on KZbin for a few weeks and it is astounding to me to hear such knowledgeable reviewers of BEVs to NOT recommend the purchase of a CCS BEV if you have an intention of going on a road trip. This situation is far far worse that I expected. Even more astounding to me is Tesla’s lack or marketing their network charging advantage. I shouldn’t be surprised since Tesla does not have a PR or Marketing department. (Genius Elon) They should be letting every customer know how reliable their charging network is to drive sales.

[@JustinKelly]

They almost don't need to because it's videos like this that do that for them. Throw in the price reduction and tax credit for at least short term and they have a recipe to keep sales strong.

[@raymondschembri5042]

Hi Ricardo . Here in Australia Tesla SC have both ccs and nacs . They work perfectly fine . I have a M3 with ccs and never fails.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

I agree Kyle is knowledgeable when it comes to EVs but I'd like to preface that by saying he isn't a full 100% EV convert. He says he still likes gas cars, so I'd take his advice of recommending ICE cars for road tripping with a pinch of salt. Yes I know that for certain use cases like RVing there are no electric alternatives. But for most regular car road tripping (not including towing) EVs work just fine. If he was a true 100% EV convert then he'd not see any substantial benefits of ICE cars and would be repulsed by the engine sound and emissions. That's how I am, along with many others. Kyle is a 'plain-old' car enthusiast first.

[@ricardod70]

@@ArtiePenguin1 The CCS charging experience is a total crap shoot in the USA right now which is why BEVs are not recommended by Kyle for the average consumer who plan to use their cars away from home.

[@camrodger8638]

The elephant in the room is the fact that the charging experience, or rather the unpredictable charging experience from hell separates Tesla from all the other manufacturers. It is absurd to pay more than $50k for a BEV only to know that you are buying into a predictably horrible experience.

[@COSolar6419]

Most EV owners charge mostly at home so rarely need DC charging. This means the problems cited are rarely encountered by most EV owners . I am not negating the problems with DC charger reliability but they haven’t ruined my EV ownership experience.

[@o.j.mclauchlin4206]

We bought a Tesla because we knew we would take trips with it. Kyle had some horrible experiences with a Fire Mach-e that steered us away from a non-Tesla. MKBHD did an experiment with Gas vs Tesla vs CCS that helped to close the deal for us to get a Tesla over other vehicles. Charging at home with a smaller battery pack (cheaper on electric bill) is great. But we travel with out kids still in car seats. No thank you CCS. Tesla for us.

[@nishiki393]

It's hardly **EVER** the elephant in the room... lol... there are always tons of people like you making this obvious assessment, making sure we know just how wonderful Tesla is. Tesla's not, but their supercharging network is. But not all of us want a Tesla for various reasons, and most of us road trip rarely. So while a better corridor DCFC charging network is needed and greatly desired for CCS vehicles, and it's disappointing to see all these issues, the good thing is the DCFC situation will begin to improve starting next year and be considerably better within a few years, with or without Tesla's help.

[@teardowndan5364]

You can't really de-rate your way out of an isolation fault error since the isolation requirement is due to the shock hazard from voltage (up to 1000Vdc), not current, power, cooling or anything else.

[@sonictech1000]

Agreed. It also sounds like something that might not be software adjustable.

[@teardowndan5364]

@@sonictech1000 I could imagine the GFCI trip point being set using a digital potentiometer or similar device, though it is also quite likely to be hard-wired to avoid introducing unnecessary software in a safety-critical subsystem.

[@fitybux4664]

Heat can probably solve condensation issues. And DC fast charger essentially has a built-in heater... (the charger itself). I think this just takes some clever engineering. (AND TESTING FOR COLD CLIMATE WEATHER! 😆) Maybe soon we'll have "pre-conditioning for DC fast chargers"?

[@teardowndan5364]

@@fitybux4664 You don't need heat to solve a condensation issue, you need a spot that gets colder than everything else first so all condensation that may happen will happen there. Then again, you don't get much moisture at -20C and a moisture ingress issue would be unlikely to hit all chargers across multiple sites simultaneously exactly the same. My guess is that a critical component in the leakage measurement system is going out of tolerance from extreme cold and causing false trips.

[@fitybux4664]

@@teardowndan5364 "you need a spot that gets colder than everything else first so all condensation that may happen will happen there." Interesting.... 🤔

[@anthonyc8499]

Just came here to comment and like it after listening to the podcast on Apple.

[@chantzsch3916]

This seems to illustrate the difference between Tesla, whose mission is to move the world to electrification, and the "competition" whose only mission is to make money on whatever is in vogue at the moment. Too many companies were fat and happy doing what they did, and with their debt loads, don't/can't/want to spend the money for what would be a long return horizon.

[@Singuy888]

Tesla's mission is to move the world into electrification, Legacy auto's mission is to try take EV marketshare from Tesla while still sustaining their ICE sales.

[@williamelkington5430]

Thanks for this. My view is that NEVI funding shouldn't be going to any operator that exhibits the sorts of down-time that you two are finding. Also, I think people all over the country should be patrolling the the DC fast chargers and level 2 dispensers in their local areas on a regular basis and reporting the results on PlugShare and Rate Your Charge, at a minimum. Perhaps you should provide names, phone numbers, and email addresses of people in NEVI administration so that BEV drivers can report issues directly to them.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Yeah I agree. It's weird how many check-ins on PlugShare fail to include any kind of comment or maximum charging speed. Those are almost worthless check-ins if they include no further information.

[@Leggir]

I use to work with a iso manufacturer out of Alabama. We installed their equipment from West Texas to the Arctic Circle. - 40 no problem. Contactors, VFDs, full power, 600 KW, everything works. Now it's true if the power is off and it's cold out, you have to wait for the heaters and fans to warm it up for up to an hour.

[@stefanmosiek3873]

Bang on the liquid cool could not run just like diesel fuel gels up in the cold. Like u have done in tests with not conditioning the battery for charge. U get that I any battery drill

[@Mguy393]

The only enhancement I still want to see universally in all EV's is their ability to narc on the charging network for L3. I want to know where the bottleneck is when my 800v EV6 is nursing less that 150 kw on a 350 kw EA charger.

[@fitybux4664]

This already exists. It's called PlugShare. 😆 The companies just need to pay more attention to it, instead of only looking at their twitter accounts.

[@skyemalcolm]

I am currently checking the specs of an EV6 vs Tesla seeing if a Model Y would fit in my garage where the Kia currently fits. If I want to mess around with CCS networks I’ll still be able to do that with the Model Y.

[@brandenflasch]

That’s kinda where I’m at… CCS adapter will suit the need for my adventures (and CHAdeMO too) but also have Supercharger network when I just need to pound out miles

[@skyemalcolm]

@@brandenflasch my biggest concern about Tesla is, perhaps oddly, autopilot in general and phantom braking in particular. None, and I really mean none of the ADAS I’ve owned from Honda or Kia has displayed this since going all the way back to the 2016 Odyssey. And that car only did a collision warning no actual braking. 2019 Ridgeline and 2020 Clarity both had rock solid ADAS with limitations for sure but zero abnormal braking events over 50k on the Ridgeline and 30k on the Clarity. The Kia EV6 is even better with HDA in that it has incrementally better lane keeping and quite good follow and forward detection without doing anything scary like a sudden braking for no reason on the highway. However contrast and compare that with folks on the EV6 forums who either went from Tesla to Kia or from Kia to Tesla and they all agree phantom braking is a thing. It may be getting better but my question is why was it ever a thing when the radar camera fusion system that literally everyone else used circa 2020 was bulletproof there? Like I’m totally willing to be someone’s charge test dummy but what I’m not going to sign up for is being their crash test dummy. Anyway I’m going to demo drive M3 and MY later today (woohoo holiday today!) and I guess I hope for either a lot of phantom braking or zero phantom braking in the 30 minutes while have have each car. Just so I can experience it and say definitely not or hopefully not come across it at all and be confident in those cars.

[@nishiki393]

@@brandenflasch Shoot that's what I was afraid of but I understand. And as you mentioned, at least you can still do some CCS testing via the adapter once in awhile. If I did as much road tripping as you I would be looking at a Tesla too, unfortunately. But OP does bring of my biggest concern with a Tesla too, the phantom breaking potential.

[@brandenflasch]

@@nishiki393 nothing is decided - would like to make it work to have a Tesla in addition to the Rivian

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@skyemalcolm Any updates as to what you're thinking regarding the Model Y? After the latest price cuts I also seriously considered getting a Tesla (though I haven't taken possession of an EV6 yet). I decided against it due to a lot of reasons, primarily the Model Y's interior design and lack of physical controls. I'll get my EV6 this Friday and I'm super excited to start adventuring in the CCS charging world. Though I'll have a 2023 with battery preconditioning so I won't be in the same predicament you are regarding cold weather charging speeds. (BTW I'm jtespi on the Kia EV Forums)

[@fitybux4664]

15:00 "We just waited for them to warm up and they're fine."

[@Discoducky73]

Kyle and team are superheros! Thank you so much!

[@bnkwupt]

Excellent video, guys. EA has basically gone radio silence. I don’t get it.

[@berthogendoorn2133]

Experiencing poor Electrified Canada charging reliability we are seeing other charge operators opening up here in BC and Albert's, Chevron on the Run just opened up a good number of charge points, and they are working, great backup but EC needs to get their stuff together!

[@cruiser97eric1]

It would be very easy to maintain an adequate temperature inside the chargers using electric heat.

[@fitybux4664]

Each DC fast charge already comes with a built in heater. 😉 They just need to activate it.

[@TuomasLeone]

Absurd. The chargers in Europe don't seem to suffer these issues. At least I've heard no reports like this from northern Finland or Sweden where -30C temps aren't all that rare. WTH is going on. What a disservice to their customers.

[@lolfreakwaca4328]

Its still a bit rough in a non tesla sometimes, but overall the stations work pretty well… yes there are broken chargers here and there, and yes there arent ENOUGH chargers, on busy days lines are forming and everything, but it isnt as bad as In the US. Most of the time chargers just WORK , and at the very worst it will stop charging, you unplug, replug and boom it works again. Teslas having CCS here also is pretty cool because it actually forces tesla to compete with other chargingproviders because If tesla us too expensive, they can just go somewhere else… that actually happened Like a few months ago, Tesla raised their Prices and suddenly you saw a bunch of Teslas at other chargingstations, and the superchargers right next to those stations were almost empty. A few weeks later , Tesla lowered their Prices again. Really cool stuff.

[@PumpUptheJam81]

It’s America. Everything we have is sort of broken at all times.

[@christopherwhull]

@@PumpUptheJam81 starts with 50% of the population being dependent on the other 50%. The dependent class do not take care of shared resources because they have no investment.

[@fitybux4664]

LOL. Just looking at EA's twitter account. Nearly 80% of the tweets to them are "charger didn't work!". 😆 And the response is: "Let's take this offline with DMs." More transparency needed! They should be telling the exact resolution and cause of each of these cases, publicly. (Aside from confidential billing info, obviously.)

[@smartroadtrip]

I think it's time for the EPA to start fining EA when there's too much downtime. They seem to have absolutely no incentive to keep the chargers working.

[@Longsnowsm]

Lack of competition in the charging networks is a serious problem. Imagine a world if you will where the ONLY gas station network was Exxon/Mobil or Phillips 66... I don't understand why we don't see a mad rush to build out competing networks and to actually offer services at their charging locations. Covered parking, the ability to use a bathroom, shop, lighting, the ability to wash a windshield, empty trash etc. Dare to imagine. This is a huge opportunity.

[@markbajek2541]

Yep, restrooms very important if you're over 60.

[@PumpUptheJam81]

I have only seen shell and Kum n go install chargers at stations. As noted in other videos there’s a massive wait on utility providers running service to locations. 12-24 month wait lists.

[@ZenEndurance]

Obvious solution is for gas stations to install chargers. Getting it done is another thing.

[@nishiki393]

Because currently DCFC is a poor business to be in

[@Longsnowsm]

@@nishiki393 Gas stations don't make their money selling gas. That is why they offer services, food, and convenience. Charging networks need to figure out what we already know from the conventional fuels business.

[@thefunkydeep446]

Why does the EU not have similar CCS issues?

[@fitybux4664]

High level answer: More regulation.

[@macioluko9484]

Great video guys! This was a major reason why I chose a Model Y

[@justanotherguy7798]

Great job guys keep on their butts. Something has to be done quickly and I believe all the CCs EV manufacturers should take lead on this problem if they want consumers to buy their products, what is so hard about copying Teslas supercharger manufacturing ? It’s like the charger manufacturer is just learning what goes on inside a DC fast charger and try’s to reinvent what works in the field, and the lack of tech support is a worldwide product manufacturing shortfall.

[@drjaye1962]

thx Kyle n Brandon great job...peace

[@moony2703]

Really like the behind the scenes look into what the maintenance people themselves are dealing with!! Sounds like they are the emergency vehicles of the ev world. XD Hope they get some more hands on deck soon so they can get some time off, or at least less issues coming their way although it sounds like they might have to wait for it to warm up first. Like your attitude to ‘no I’m not dealing with you contacting me all the time and taking up all my time, I’m just going to focus on posting this and getting the message out there’. Sounds like if you aren’t charging them consulting fees you really should be if they are using you and your team for info all the time. But yeah, glad you put your foot down there. Also reminds me of Finn Peacock who wrote the book ‘The Good Solar Guide: 7 steps to tiny bills for Australian Homeowners’ because he was sick of people asking him the same questions all the time! XD Apparently there was a lot of situations where they’d get him a meal in exchange but he’d end up talking so much that he would barely even get to eat it, hence him finally going ‘enoughs, enough I’m writing a coffee table book so everyone can read it instead’. (He also has a ‘Solar Quotes’ KZbin podcast and website if anyone is interested.)

[@theprimechuck]

I was doing a road trip from Des Moines, Iowa to Sparta Wisconsin during the cold snap. I decided I was going to try and not use the supercharging network. I was unable to use the chargers in Albert Lea, Minnesota on EA or ZefNet and had to use the SuperCharger. Traveling on I-90 East from Albert Lea. The next EA charger is 149 mi. There are a few zeff net chargers that are generally broken like a single ABB in a gas station parking lot. Zefnet has ABB units that when they work they are pretty solid. On the way back it was better was 15°. EA charger in Albert Lea, Minnesota had one function installed so I was able to charge. Thank you for picking up the charge Kyle. I think this could be interesting if someone like a fast food chain or regional grocery store or something installs fast chargers. They could even be 75 KW units at a lower price since the incentive in that case is to get you to stop and come in. Rather than stop and leave as fast as possible.

[@JustinKelly]

I assume you didn't take I80 on this trip but I am located in the QC and hear very little about the chargers around here. I don't have an EV but they interest me a lot.

[@theprimechuck]

@@JustinKelly I 35 to I90 I80 east of Des Moines to IL is okay, but not great

[@JustinKelly]

@@theprimechuck Interesting. If I ever get the chance I will have to check some of them out. I have been to the EA station in Geneseo but that is the only one. It seemed to be working as expected when it was warm.

[@rogerahlgren2833]

EA seems to have a plethora of problems. 2 of the 4 chargers at Albert Lea have never worked (The station was commissioned last summer, ABB). A new install just south of Milwaukee is apparently complete (according to a checkin conversation with an on-site tech) but no commissioning is planned until spring.

[@botabob]

You all are on point - this is important information for the consumer - thanks

[@MDillonEV]

My wife and I just got home from a 2900 mile ID4 road trip from Omaha to Orlando and back. We used EA the whole trip because it was free for us. It went pretty well. Our only issues were 4 or 5 times our EA app whould get stuck. It would think we were still charging at our previous charging location. Which would necessitate a call to EA every time.

[@RyanGaroogian]

This is super important with more adoption we need working chargers for sure.

[@danrendino]

Branden needs to get a microphone instead of relying on his computer audio

[@vhol93]

Super agree

[@brandenflasch]

Apologies on that - I actually have a mic but the room was bad for audio. I switched rooms before we recorded more!

[@vhol93]

@@brandenflasch Looking forward ! :D

[@danrendino]

@@brandenflasch That is great. I appreciate all you guys do. Very informative. Just had a hard time trying to understand the audio. Keep it up!

[@KJSvitko]

More Tesla owners should try EA chargers once in a while and report them to EA or other provider if they do not work properly. The more people that report outages the sooner they will get repaired hopefully. There are just more Tesla's in use to be testers. We need EA and other chargers to work. You never know when you might need to use one. Helping to test them will make it better for everyone. Sure seems like EA and legacy auto companies employees do not drive EVs and test their chargers adequately.

[@glj100]

Why should Tesla owners use CCS charging and report back, I have a Tesla and have a CCS adaptor , they work on some CCS units not others, oh and why should Tesla owners report the issues as we have a reliable Supercharger network we can use.

[@fitybux4664]

A Tesla owner can use a SuperCharger in 5 seconds or a public CCS charger in 30 seconds (or never if it's not working). Kyle's dad posted a video about this. If smart phones have shown us anything, it's that the typical user is impatient.

[@smarticus6384]

Maybe Tesla can someday add CCS chargers (color them blue vs. red) to their existing sites and become the gold standard for CCS across the nation. I doubt they would ever do this and give up their competitive edge, but IMO they could dominate the charging space if they wanted to do so.

[@shou635]

They are going to.

[@fitybux4664]

The change is MUCH simpler. A Tesla to CCS cable. (These exist already for destination chargers, but won't work on superchargers. So... they just need to fix the bits that don't work. (billing/etc)) Also, note that I am talking about a Tesla to CCS cable, not the much more common CCS to Tesla cable. 😉 Once you make this all work at the hardware and software level, guaranteed you'll still have Tesla users like: "HEY! WHY ARE YOU USING *MY* SUPERCHARGER?" 😆 (Because: humans.)

[@smarticus6384]

@@fitybux4664 I was thinking more along the lines of keeping the (Red) NAC Tesla-only sites as they are but expanding onto each site to now include additional CCS (Blue) chargers/connectors for non-Tesla CCS. The Red and Blue logos can let the driver know as they drive up which is which.

[@Lynyrd_Evnyrd]

BTC is the worst vendor. They’re the reason Francis has so many de-rated chargers. They drag their feet on service and repairs which hurts since they are very high maintenance chargers compared to their competitors. It’s harmed Francis’ reputation and they’re basically left holding the bag along with their customers. In order to make routes passable, Francis has added 60kW Tellus chargers for redundancy at high traffic locations and that’s basically all you can do for reliability if you operate a network with liquid cooled BTC equipment since BTC won’t stock parts for repairs.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

BTC uses very poor quality parts, many of their dispenser's screens have burn in or "LCD sun spots" like early generation Redbox kiosks. Back then, 10-15 years ago, LCD screens needed a sunshade. BTC needs to work with better suppliers to provide more reliable parts for their chargers.

[@fitybux4664]

6:12 Is it possible that there's always a problem with cold weather charging, but the new BTC chargers are the only ones that are doing a thorough isolation test and finding a problem? Condensation works about the same in all of these units... (And it's likely condensation somewhere that's causing these faults.) You'd have to have an EE background and compare the isolation test chips used in each of these units to even begin to know if this is this case, unfortunately. 🤔 If there are like, two faults in an hour or something, the station should go unavailable and techs should immediately be dispatched. (Or two faults for the same VIN. Example, someone tries switching to another charger.)

[@davidandrew6357]

Bah, on getting rid of CHAdeMo! Without it there would have been no working charger at that location.

[@drnick40]

People, if you see that all this automakers make cars which cannot be charged, why are you buying them? Go buy an ICE car or a Tesla!

[@nishiki393]

because many of us don't want to continue destroying the earth nor do we want a Tesla if I had to road trip a lot I might buy a Tesla, or if I couldn't stomach it, I'd buy a PHEV

[@NackDSP]

There are microprocessors that simply stop at low temperatures. If they didn't specify a wide temperature range microprocessor that could be the problem. I had this happen with a PIC processor in a model airplane. When I would fly it above a certain altitude the CPU would stop. It gets colder at higher altitudes. I finally figured out the version of the PIC I was using was spec'd to work above freezing. I tested it with an ice cube and it would stop every time. I changed to the wide temp range version and everything was great. it could also be condensation freezing inside the box creating a current leak path with an icicle. There are many ways to go wrong in outdoor rated devices.

[@fitybux4664]

Wait... you ran a simple test, confirmed an issue, modified the design, and then it works? EA needs to hire you, because they can't understand something so simple. 😁 😀

[@michics100]

I'm feeling a common denominator here is VW. They own EA and they also are apparently doing the same poor customer service routine to their ID4 owners with failure to do OTA updates to their cars to fix on going issues. From what I've read the ID4 has gone from very positive reviews to poor due to this issue. The EA charging system is now going the same route of good to bad reviews.

[@fitybux4664]

I saw the ID4 sign guy during that automotive show. 😆 "FIX MY ID.4!"

[@guycocoa211]

Do CCS chargers make any money, or have the potential to make money, for their owners? If not, there’s your answer about why they don’t work.

[@nishiki393]

Exactly, currently it's a very poor business model as Kyle has mentioned a few times. Kind of a chicken and egg problem right now but as we get more EVs on the road the business case should continue to improve and incentives/better results follow from that.

[@fitybux4664]

1) Pay a quarter of a million dollars for a L3 charger 2) Charge $0.30/kWh or so 3) ??? 4) Profit!

[@TheAdventureAuto]

It absolutely blows my mind that manufacturers aren't getting THEIR skin in the game of charging infrastructure and reliability. They must all think EVs won't last long. Or they just prefer self-cannibalism.

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

tesla entered THAT chatroom a long time ago........?

[@TheAdventureAuto]

@@JohnSmith-yv6eq Yea for sure. And somehow it's their fault that CCS sucks lol.

[@nishiki393]

@@TheAdventureAuto I don't see anyone making that assertion

[@bikeaddictbp]

Mercedes seems to be taking action ...

[@nishiki393]

@@bikeaddictbp Yes that is encouraging, put the task at hand is so huge that they really need to all combine their effort and do something truly serious. But like I said this is a start and something. 🤞🏻

[@CraigMatsuura]

Honestly we want accurate reporting, and of course working chargers. But we really need a metric that is real time indicating a station or charger is down. I'm afraid it is even worse than this due to the lack of an accurate status. I get the cold was an issue, could have been a number of things they need to figure out ASAP, we are a CCS based family, wife does not.like Tesla and loves the look, build quality of the CCS vehicles. Because we charge at home 99% of the time we.ate.fine, but would love to start road tripping too. Kyle's videos gave me the confidence that it can be done, but it is now causing me doubt that we will ever be able to road trip in a CCS car. I hate to go back to ICE.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Don't worry. The current state of charging infrastructure won't stay static, it will improve in the coming years. Chargers built from NEVI funding will make a big difference. Funding was only dispersed last September/October 2022 and to my knowledge no NEVI funded stations have come online yet. Expect them to start going online in large numbers by this summer 2023.

[@fitybux4664]

@@ArtiePenguin1 I think Kyle made this point in an earlier video, but will NEVI funding be controlled by the Charge Point Operator saying when they are up/down, or based on having good PlugShare ratings, for instance? 😆 I think it's going to be a self-reported thing for CPOs, unfortunately.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@fitybux4664 Yes that could be an issue; I was saying NEVI funding will bring more charging station locations. Right now, there are generally few DC fast charging options for non-Interstate Highway travelers. Even though I think the 50-mile requirement is too short of a distance out here in the Western US, it will bring added redundancy in case one charging site has many units down.

[@cliff4377]

in 60,000+ miles in my m3s+ my only charge fail was at the EA site I tried to use on my trip down the 101/1, just ended up ditching it and pushing on to the tesla sc

[@BensEcoAdvntr]

Kyle, have you noticed that EA hasn’t updated their app in more than six months? It seems like they just don’t care

[@nishiki393]

Wow, just checked, you are correct, at least on Android! Definitely not a good sign.

[@BensEcoAdvntr]

@@nishiki393 also on iOS

[@jjamespacbell]

Were Tesla SuperChargers adjacent to the area working at the time to the best of your knowledge?

[@stevekight1955]

Put a 150 watt light bulb in the bottom of the dispenser cabinet to keep them warm.

[@pppscooby]

Same situation over here, non Tesla chargers are unreliable, maybe you should get a UK person on these podcasts too, and other countries.

[@dennislyons3095]

EA has just started to remove the ABB units at our local (Paso Robles, CA) location. This is week of Jan 9-13. Not yet active.

[@tommilton5753]

There is a very simple solution to this problem. It should be a condition for getting permission to operate that EA (and the other providers) are responsible for the costs of disruption to affected users, just as the airlines have to compensate for cancelled or late flights.

[@callistoscali4344]

I think EA and EVgo will just shut down if that happens.

[@nishiki393]

Yeah this will never work because DCFC is already a marginal business at best. All the charge providers would cease to exist if this was the case.

[@mallamal5578]

Tesla superchargers are working 99.96%of the time. Never had a problem - superb infrastructure.

[@KJSvitko]

Adding comments to plug share may help.

[@videopyc]

Time for American EVs manufacturers like Ford, GM, Ram to built their own electric supercharging stations like Tesla has done. Those American manufacturers could use their dealer network to built and maintain those new EVs power stations. They would built brand loyalty and make more sales.

[@callistoscali4344]

Those brands also sell gasoline powered cars, so, the incentive is not there.

[@videopyc]

@@callistoscali4344 may be US car manufacturers next step is to stop selling EVs thru brand dealers.

[@christopherwhull]

The automobile companies are telling every dealer they have to make .5M - 1M dollar investments on service side to sell EVs at ever increasingly less margin and average repair bills will drop. The bill payer on serivce and support is more likely to be the auto company. If that investment includes 10 public network chargers at each dealer odds are the service side, particularly the battery and motor replacement fixtures are being shortchanged. A new model every year or two under the plastic, fiberglass, and Sheetmetal should rightfully also go away. What are the marketing people going to to do with a new release once every 5 years with a product with very low margins until year 3. Chassis and coachbuilders was a thing for the first 40 years of the big 3 auto companies, think that could return in some form, since consumers are done with the tesla shape at this point.

[@HoundStuff]

Sure sounds like the cold weather specs of the hardware are off a bit (a lot). -30c is way less than what cold region utilities spec their equipment at, for comparison sake. Also, they could use some heating equipment that could kick in during extreme cold to keep things above minimum and working (again, a common practice in other extreme cold equipment applications). Flat out not working and stranding people is just not acceptable. Thanks for digging into this!

[@fitybux4664]

"Also, they could use some heating equipment that could kick in during extreme cold to keep things above minimum and working" Yes, they could add an extra heater. But - I had a thought. The DC fast charger *IS* essentially a large heater. 😆 They need to run it inefficiently for waste heat, until the isolation test succeeds. This might be fixed by some clever software engineering and testing.

[@HoundStuff]

Interesting indeed…. Not sure if that would generate enough heat when not charging (would it pass enough current to create the heat when not charging?) but if it could and keep temps up to be ready for a charge session that would be sweet.

[@callistoscali4344]

Do you have a podcast to discuss the problems with running a profitable 3rd party EV charging business? I am sure if there is big money to be made, people will find a way to make it.

[@TheViewFromUpHere]

Oh NO, they will need anti-frost and condensation heaters in all the charger cabinets.

[@nickfiek]

If EA cannot give accurate status reports - post is "Available" ONLY if more than 90% (?) of charge connections complete without error - then they deserve to be called "Electric LIEs America!" Charge Connection count increments with first customer interaction. That could be cable attachment, authentication, payment attempt... Percentage is calculated over last 10 Charge Connections or no more than 24 hours. If there is no activity in 24 hours, the previous score holds as long as the post reports all components are operational.

[@78katz]

It has to be frustrating to make countless videos about charging station fails and get zero progress as a result.

[@bearmotorcycle7305]

Like EU & iPhone, only a matter of time before some government forces all manufacturers onto the same charge port.

[@chrisbraid2907]

If you want to cross country in a CCS car arrange to Airbnb at places with garaging with charging. This becomes a bonus for both parties …

[@callistoscali4344]

One can sleep in the CCS car while it is charging.

[@homomorphic]

Been using EA for 4+ years. Never have had a significant issue with the chargers other than them being in use.

[@PumpUptheJam81]

Unheard of. But, congrats.

[@homomorphic]

@@PumpUptheJam81 not at all unheard of. Would be the typical experience in my area over that time period.

[@callistoscali4344]

How often do you drive and where do you drive to?

[@homomorphic]

@@callistoscali4344 I have charged around 100 times in 4+ years. I mostly drive around SoCal (from LA to San Diego) but I've driven to Las Vegas.

[@cadriver2570]

@@homomorphic So you're in a very small area that gets more maintenance resources than any other area of the country.

[@jtp1984]

This really makes me on the side from getting a non Tesla EV. Mr Pete Buttigieg, are you watching this? With this recent government funding, these charging companies must be held accountable! Car manufacturers must build chargers as requirements before cars! Mr Biden is totally oblivious on this!😤

[@karenamackenzie]

Any chance you could reach out to Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttegieg? It would be helpful for him to hear this perspective- guessing it’s his department that owns the new funding and he should hear more about the issues around uptime requirements!

[@bearmotorcycle7305]

🤣🤣🤣

[@yourgooglemeister6745]

The coping of EV owners is legendary

[@fjalics]

This is BS. They couldn't put the charger in a commercial freezer to test it before they rolled it out? Tesla tests all their vehicles in the cold. The army does the same with equipment. This is not a new concept.

[@fitybux4664]

Commercial freezers typically don't have the same relative humidity as being out in the snow. I'm not saying that proper cold weather test chambers don't exist. They do! 😉

[@HeyHeyHeyHeyHey]

Charging provider need to be liable for providing incorrect status. You're telling me the station is functional and it's not. It's your responsibility to get me the juice ⚡⚡⚡

[@JohnWickstyle]

It's your choice get ev or not,same with vaccine, it's all on you.

[@nishiki393]

oooohhhhhhh, good one, 😂

[@fitybux4664]

If you were out in -20F weather, you probably wouldn't want any vaccine needles going into your arm. Ouch! 😆

[@steveurbach3093]

I can see a cold charge start up limit, but charging should warm things up (if not, why does it need cooling in the first place ) enough to up the power😉 as things warm. Are there no folk in the design and customer usage team that have a real world clue?

[@mondotv4216]

Wow - if I was in PR and advising EA I would def not be advising the "say nothing and stick our heads in the sand" approach. I'd have mobilised the engineers to find a solution then gone on a PR blitz - apologising for the inconvenience and assuring potential customers that they we're moving as fast as we can to find a solution. An isolation fault is basic stuff and an isolation tester is not that expensive. A tech with the right equipment could figure out if it's a real issue or a software glitch in 5 minutes.

[@andreverville9492]

Tesla would have lost car sales if their charging network would have been unreliable. Charging networks don't have that much at stake and tend to take it with less of urgency when being down. It looks like they are convinced a "next week repair" is an acceptable solution. Could anyone think about a mechanism to apply heat on them when they drag their feet like that?

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

yes; an app that you report to... and it shows non working chargers in real time... Then everyone can keep an eye on them... even "News" outlets???

[@callistoscali4344]

If they charge $1/kWh, sure.

[@mitchaharden1]

The charging providers have no incentive on actually making sure the chargers work properly. They don't make the cars that use them so as long as they can report that the charger is available, they have no issue.

[@Sb129]

Lol, "just wait until it warms up", so I guess that means they know at what temp ranges their network actually works. Another thing that gets me is that all these charging stations are connected to the internet. They have to be in order for their stupid mandatory app to work. So how can they NOT know that a charging station is down or having trouble? How does a failed charging event not ping a red flag to their HQ or something? It makes zero sense to not have something like that active after years have gone by with the exact same issues. It's no wonder Tesla is so far ahead when it comes to chargers, I'm sure they do phone home their status.

[@katelights]

If chargers don't work in the cold, they should have heaters in them. Or if they can derate, and at least get some charge flowing, that might help them heat up.

[@fitybux4664]

The DC fast charger's power supply *IS* essentially a heater. I think they just need clever software and some testing.

[@rehabmax]

NASA tests their satellites down to something like minus 300º C for any failures. before launching on a rocket. Maybe EA should give them a call to reserve a test time.

[@sonictech1000]

NASA proved that cold weather launches could be challenging.

[@cmdrbillpaxton4302]

There is no way I would put myself in a situation where I had to rely on the EA network. I would either get a Tesla or go with hybrid / gas.

[@bochap2127]

Honestly, the gasoline network is still superior, even compared to Tesla.

[@justinjones6810]

The only way I could see the ccs system work is have manufacturers working with cpo companies like gm and evgo if every vehicle manufacturer would partner with a charging company and have software set up to recognize that auto maker you would get better experiences alot of these manufacturers need to be buying these charge point companies while they are cheap

[@MattLesak]

I personally believe this is being done by design. Hear me out. I've owned several EVs since 2015. EA hasn't changed their MO since launch. The same issues I experienced years ago are the same as today. The one thing to keep in mind is VW proposed to build EA rather than pay a fine for DieselGate in the US. I believe they don't want to succeed. Why? VW isn't making profit on EVs, yet. If they can cause a poor impressions on enough buyers, it slows down adoption. They are simply buying time. It's the only thing that makes sense given how consistently poor their network has performed over the years. Could it be shear incompetence? Perhaps, but given how long this has been happening, either they are willfully tolerating it or deliberately causing it. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[@cpear760]

Why don't these units warm themselves up when it gets below a defined temperature? Seems like that would solve the problem.

[@sonictech1000]

So who pays if a charger bricks a car?

[@fitybux4664]

What about if a car bricks a charger? Most chargers cost more than the cars using them. 😆

[@Sentra1985]

If a charger damages your vehicle who is responsible?

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

If a gas pump spills fuel and your car catches on fire....?

[@PumpUptheJam81]

The vehicle has the onboard charger. The equipment provides requested current and negotiates handshake and payment.

[@nishiki393]

@@PumpUptheJam81 That's only true for AC charging. For DC fast charging, the charger is external to the vehicle.

[@fitybux4664]

@@nishiki393 don't forget that AC L2 charging doesn't handle payment. Because the engineers they hired to make J1772 must have been idiots or idealists. ("EVs will be so awesome, governments will be very incentivized to provide it free!") And the charging protocols for J1772 can't be upgraded to handle payment because old auto manufacturers don't provide meaningful software updates.

[@derbagger22]

Are these problems as prevalent in the Northeast?

[@pechaa]

We’ve gotta be able to get to Grandma’s and Grandpa’s house for Thanksgiving and winter holidays.

[@bearmotorcycle7305]

Government subsidies say otherwise. Buahaha

[@fitybux4664]

@@bearmotorcycle7305 Someone from EA is probably living the high life in a mansion, instead of reliable working DC fast chargers. 😆 (Because: subsidies, capitalism, and greed.)

[@joshuarosen465]

Why hasn't VW come down on EA like a ton of bricks? If they want to sell EVs they need to make EA as reliable as the Supercharger network. GM needs to do the same with EVgo. Tesla didn't build the Supercharger network to sell electricity they built it to sell cars. The charge network is part of the car, arguably the most important part of the car. When you buy a Tesla some part of the purchase price goes to fund the Supercharger network. Knowing that you can always charge your car is a defining feature of a Tesla. I've owned a Model 3 for 3.5 years and I road trip every weekend in good weather, I've never had to wait and I've never not been able to charge in all that time. I would never buy a car that doesn't use NACS, when I replace this car it will either be another Tesla or an Aptera which will also use NACS.

[@christinasefton4839]

I was wondering that as well. Then I recalled that you can buy an adaptor for the Tesla stations for the id4. Still would like to see door charging stations heated in winter.

[@joshuarosen465]

@@christinasefton4839 No you can't, Tesla sells an adapter that will allow newer Tesla's to use CCS but they don't sell an adapter that will allow a CCS car to use a Supercharger. You can buy an adapter for a J1772 car that will allow it to use a Tesla destination charger but that's AC not DC.

[@christinasefton4839]

@@joshuarosen465 ugh so much to learn.

[@technologyandsociety21C]

This is a good reason to stick with Tesla, especially with the new prices.