Overrated Primarchs?

[@notknightbean]

Macha talking about the primarchs not being tactical geniuses, when we also have writers who aren’t tactically aware in the slightest.

[@cloaker2829]

Then they should've written the strategies to be vague.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

@@cloaker2829or given that it’s black library, not written at all.

[@PB-re1mm]

People who arent 'Tactical Geniuses' talking about a youtuber whose not a 'Tactical Genius' complaining about writers who arent 'Tactical Geniuses' writing about Primarchs who are.............

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

@ it’s as simple as “The character’s can only be as intelligent as the author.” No black library author is equipped to write a primarch. The cunning ploy would then be to avoid writing for and about them as much as is possible. This level of info and interaction had, in fact, already been reached before the horus heresy series came out.

[@cloaker2829]

@@PB-re1mm lol

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

Nightlords should’ve hunted down the shattered legions. Feel like you could justify them being a little vulnerable to fear tactics. Especially when the iron hands are reeling from the psychic damage of their primarch being killed. Also it makes sense that they’d go against severely disadvantaged opponents

[@jamesespinosa690]

Thats a great idea! I always wanted to see Night Lords vs Raven Guard in the Heresy, but I like your idea even more! I always felt that the Thramas crusade didn't make a huge amount of sense, and that it was under explained.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

@ the nightlords are neither a physical nor mental test for the dark angels They’ve had legionnaires crushed into cubes by ancient psychic abominations engineered at the dawn of creation. They have weapons that can erase people from time and space. They are really broken They needed to face demons or something to make it a fair fight. It’d also make the betrayal at Caliban even better. After years of resisting the predations of the warp They go home to find a bunch of brothers who barely even put up a fight against chaos.

[@Stealyourmemes_studios]

It would’ve been cool, but then what would happen with medusan?

[@losmiercoless]

As someone who was and is an IF fanboy since 2007, yes, they way overdid Dorn and it made me like him less. To add to your point about the strategic situation when attacking a fortified position, I couldn't even finish the siege of terra series. I couldn't fathom how the traitors realistically would stand a chance. In every book the author spent 300 pages describing how "the loyalists did everything perfectly" to then mary-sue in some warp fuckery that was in no way foreshadowed. Every. Single. Time.

[@malicant123]

The HH series is messy. There were too many writers, and they were given too much freedom with how they wanted to portray the various events and characters. Beyond that. few of the writers seemed to have much understanding of military history or tactics that would have allowed them to write realistically.

[@magicianman534]

Honestly, this makes it sound like the mythical grounded and realistic 30k never actually existed the way people describe it.

[@sinanatamer2300]

Dan Abnett did more damage to IF than gav thorpe did to eldar.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

Damn.

[@real_Greys0n]

They've overdone it with Dorn. But I think it's conceptually cool that he's one of the main primarchs in the HH. It just makes sense in the context of the story. But they just overdid it.

[@notknightbean]

Mattwards guiliman has nothing on 30k dorn. Somehow the best general, the best duelist, the most loyal, and the most fearsome. Able to duel out fulgrim, out strategy all the traitors, tougher then ferrus, mortarion, and vulkan, and “loyalist warmaster”. Meanwhile plenty of primarchs get shit on or literally nothing.

[@lokenontherange]

​@@notknightbean Sounds like loser copium

[@lokenontherange]

@notknightbean The primarchs used to be space marines plus. Dorn's old death was being killed by marines. That makes no sense in modern lore where primary is butcher marines with thr same ease that a marine would slaughter infants. Marines have been nerfed so much in heresy lore and the primarchs got buffed even more than they ever needed to be.

[@phantomjoker5]

magnus the midwit, lord of dunning-kruger

[@JohnDJ08]

Whoever made GW’s new website must hate humanity because it’s the most painful I have had the misfortune of using. A crusty servitor could do a better job.

[@maxmagnus3793]

Really cool that you are getting into Dropfleet! It's been my favorite game to play lately. I would love to hear your take on the game when you've tried it out I found it strange that TTCombat would recommend you the Dreadnought. BCs and BBs are much more relevant for a new collection. What I think you should also be getting is Light ships. I would say get 2 copies of the UCM light ship sprue. It combines a lot of different smaller ship types like corvettes, destroyers, cutters and monitors

[@adamprusik966]

The leman russ stupidity makes me laugh sometimes as a space wolves player because I know that the man has made so many mistakes and stupid desicions

[@danilvasylyev9793]

As a Night Lords fanboy I would like to defend my boy a little. While you raise valid points, I think it is fine for Sanguinius and Curze to have both the "spidey sense" and far future premotions. Sure, while Curze may not have had a trainer and worthy adversaries on Nostramo he still had free time during Great Crusade to train and fought Xenos enemies which may have had superior weapon skills. Also, some people are just naturally more gifted than others and I think it was a case with Curze, when it comes to melee combat. Throughout all of BL books and wiki pages I've read very few of the duel match ups make sense and are just decided by who the authors wants to win, not actual skill of the fighters.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

Your defense of curze is That he’s actually not defensible You know who else is naturally gifted at combat? All of the primarchs. You know who gained more experience in the great crusade as well as more experience with combat overall The Lion Nightlords are even said to have spent a chunk of the great crusade beating up already compliant worlds in order to make them more obedient.

[@danilvasylyev9793]

@theylivewesleep.5139 Yes, all primarchs are gifted but some are gifted more than others, they are not clones. If that was the case Magnus would have equal weapon skill to Russ. Regarding the fights with Lion: I agree that fight against Lion and Guilliman both is a bit op for Curze, but he had 2 other fights against the Lion in Thramas - one which he clearly lost and was in comatose from the wounds suffered and the other with no clear winner, so I don't see your problem.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

@@danilvasylyev9793 again, it’s about experience and training and the gulf between the Lion and Curze should be one of the largest in the settings. I generally think that thramas was a mismatch. Nightlords would work better trying to hunt down the shattered legions. They even had a traitor raven guard among their ranks who could’ve helped the nigh lords fight his brothers. The Dark Angels needed to face something a lot tougher. That’s how they’ve been built up. 2nd ed lore suggested they were fighting something else before they could actually leave for terra. There’s also a Dark Angels banner dating back to the great crusade which depicts a dark angel killing what looks like a demon.

[@cornchaptermasterofcarmine5902]

​@@theylivewesleep.5139 look, what you "people" never take into account is the rule of cool in the 40k universe. What was different when Lion beat Curze? That is right. He did not have a soi latte hipster beard. What changed from Curze taking a beating to soloing Lion & Guilliman no diff is that Lion got a beard and Guilliman got a fugly 40k model. After that the stocks of cool in Lion & Guilliman took a steep nose dive and now Curze is leading on the index of cool therefore he beats them. The unforseen force in Warhammer stats is the rule of cool.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

1:01:15 definitely agree. The chain of custody for 40k fluff was abysmal And this was obvious to a lot of fans at the time And despite it never getting fixed That fact has now been memory-holed.

[@justususalplayer1329]

1:06:55 I am afraid to inform you, but you are kinda wrong about all this jolly nurgle stuff. Bilepipers are THE ONLY jolly funny ones among plaguebearers simply because they are cursed that way. I have not see any jolly plague marines in that dozen of kits that I've assembled, maybe 1 or 2 crooked smiley head options for blightlords. The only laughthing options I might recall is the limited edition termolord from easy to build series. And thats is not even touching the point of 10k years passing since transfornation, which can bring some adjustments to your Character

[@trajanthegreat2928]

Does anyone actually rate Ferrus on his lore? The only reason people rate him is his tabletop stats and his Brutal 3 hammer.

[@davidpenney2392]

I like some of his lore, he's my favourite primarch and yes him on the table top he's a beast

[@prdalien0]

46:22 uss liberty moment

[@malicant123]

Oy vey!

[@darko-man8549]

11:31 agree so much on this. Horus is paraded as “the best”; “the most efficient Legion & Primarch” - but they had the easiest campaigns

[@magicianman534]

I've said before that the biggest obstacle the Sons of Horus faced in the Heresy was believing their own hype. I think Horus was aware, to some extent, that his legion's reputation was inflated by charisma and politics, which is why he was so insecure as Warmaster. But his sons fully believed they were the premiere legion as they marched with undeserved confidence into the jaws of total ruination.

[@darko-man8549]

@ problem there is when a moment turns up that the SoH suddenly do be beating other Legions I sit back and think “hey that’s not right” Though I love the Orhans of War and Shattered Legions for just totally outperforming SoH after the Istvaan

[@DeusExMachina10001]

The Lion is the most overrated Primarch in the whole setting.

[@MLaak86]

Biggest issues are - A: Primarchs and Big E need to do stupid things for the setting, mostly already put in place before their series ever started, to come about, so they're gonna do stupid things. B: GW doesn't have tactically or strategically minded people on the payroll, either as writers or just advisors, for their fiction or game and have a fairly clear 'rule of cool' mindset - given the focus on relatively close combat on table top and in fiction as well as their space battles using traditional style battleships vs carrier style vessels.

[@lokenontherange]

Just hire a retired staff college guy

[@tylerghersinich576]

Yeah Angron being the biggest one. There is no way the emperor would take Angron before a fight. The emperor would have waited till 11 hour and set the war hounds in or even before. With hopes of saving as many gladiators as possible because the emperor would have seen and know Angron role and purpose and maintain loyalty

[@lokenontherange]

@@tylerghersinich576 There's no way a space marine with a lascannon wouldn't have poked a hole through him. Plus the idea that even a primarchh can just tank titan weaponry is beyond stupid.

[@tanzmanz3469]

To be fair actors interview and meet war veterans before a movie Or visit prisons to play a prisoner. If I were a write who had no clue about warfare or tactics, I'd invest my time into asking questions and picking the brains of folks who have been there done that or studied it and gather many opinions. One write thought because an iron hand was deaf he wasn't effected by noise weapons kinda retarded.

[@regularbear]

@43:22 it's already heavily implied that Leman Russ and the IVth have taken out Primarchs before. Receiving the kill order on Magnus and not balking at it adds to that background unspoken lore

[@cousinzeke4888]

All of them. I am sick to fucking death of primarchs.

[@chadmrrsn]

I saw that dropzone starship at ukge a number of years ago and it was just as awe-inspiring in person

[@lloydmitchellnineone]

Ive come to the conclusion you dont actually like Horus Herey

[@theemissary1313]

Regarding Alpha Legion 'plans within plans mwahaha' in the Tallarn anthology, there's a counter that they don't plan on that their opponent doesn't care about their plans or their own survival. Worth a read.

[@tanzmanz3469]

More videos like this please they are crack up and very true Thank you

[@bg9994]

Peter turbo is inarguably the most over rated. No I will not elaborate.

[@magicianman534]

I'll take a stab at it! The issue I have with Perterabo is he had all the ingredients he needed for success but chose to constantly gaslight himself into failure. He had one of the better starting positions of the Primarchs: A relatively developed and civilized starting world, he inherited a legion that was doing well for itself and wasn't on verge of collapse, he didn't have any crippling bloodline flaws to cope with, he didn't have an adversarial relationship with the Emperor or traumatic life weighing him down, he was even one of the few Primarchs to be raised by a proper family that cared about him to an extent. So many other Primarchs did better with less. There's just no real reason for him to be as embittered and angry as he is. The meme of the dude sticking a branch in his own bike then complaining about it is the story of Perterabo's life.

[@DeusExMachina10001]

I don't know that he's particularly overrated because hardly anyone seemed to respect him in-universe, and hardly anyone seems to like him out of universe. He's also maybe the most poorly written Primarch because so many authors have interpreted him so differently, which is kinda funny because it ultimately turned him into the most evil Primarch by a country mile. He acted like a complete sociopath despite obviously not being one, and he never had an excuse for any of it.

[@magicianman534]

@DeusExMachina10001 The way I see it, the thing about him supposedly being disrespected is another self-inflicted injury. It's not that people don't respect him and his legion's talents. It's that he makes a big show about not needing external validation... so people dont feel the need to give it to him. He crafted his whole legion's identity around scorning the idea of awards, accolades, and seeking glory. That victory in strength is all the reward one should need. So, why is he surprised he doesn't have any of the things he ostensibly rejects? He's mad that no one appreciates his talent as a civilian architect, but he never actually goes out and *builds* any of his great works. He just hordes the plans in his study. Like, no one was stopping him. Hell, Guilliman built his own side empire. Perterabo just convinced himself he was being rejected without ever actually trying to be accepted in the first place. TL;DR, I think people absolutely did respect him and his legion. He just wound himself up over nothing, or at least greatly exaggerated the slights against him.

[@DeusExMachina10001]

@@magicianman534 He was respected in the same sort of way that you "respect" a draft horse or an excavator. He did his job and did it well, but also did it with no flair, panache, or imagination, and he got a metric fuckton of his guys killed all the time (which was the primary reason why nobody else liked campaigning with him). However you are correct to say that he wound himself up over nothing, as honestly very few Primarchs were widely recognized for their achievements. Really it was just Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, and Fulgrim that got much positive attention. The rest just kinda did their own thing. It's like Caliphone said before Pert killed her; "you're like a child hiding in a corner, angry that nobody notices him."

[@margaretwood152]

34:24 *-Goodfellas-* _CASINO_ Yeah, I'm 🚫 currently enamored with the final days (📚 Books) of The *Siege of Terra.* It's incredibly frustrating 😕 to say the least ( 'cause there's inclines of a good Book (singular) in there.... But GW loves 💰 💵💰

[@hoyer]

Well, to be honest, your big problem with Dorn seems to be how he is written and portrayed in the books.

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

Almost like black library is responsible for most of what is wrong with 40k lore.

[@hoyer]

@ na, we must both be imagining things.

[@Constanz92]

Lol Macca I love your channel so much

[@aworldeater7989]

Dropfleet commander is the only game iI'play' apart from HH. I say 'play' as I've only every found 1 opponent, 4years ago. It is interesting that you bring up the large scale New Orleans strike carrier (an amazing diorama that it is), as that white whale can be considered what caused the downfall of the original kickstarter. I know at least 3 people who never got their orders fulfilled before Hawk ran out of money and then TTCombat swooped in. You should get the space stations set. It is great.

[@Mericaball]

* Of course Dorn is front and center during the siege, thank Christ the series didn’t skip around 200 years of content like the HH series *

[@ed8869]

outer circle - world's grumpiest gamer?

[@timhorner6521]

Ferrus Manus is hardly over rated, in my opinion he got done dirty in fulgrim being killed off in his literal first novel appearance. The fact he gets killed off so soon basically pigeon wholes him into how he acts at isstvan V, he might have actually deserved the praise he got but we never get the chance to see because he gets fucked over so soon

[@WarmasterPainting]

Enjoyed this video Macca. Now do one for the Legions 😈

[@enochianwolf]

14:40 who will be more ferocious in combat, a privileged noble prince who was given great tutoring and treated very well by everyone around him his entire life, or an underhive ganger who fights to the death every day just to get enough resources to survive? You say Curze doesn't make sense, but I'd say he makes more sense than the Lion, who for being so close to the genetic template of the Emperor, waffled during the heresy and could be labeled a traitor primarch from a certain perspective, also using swords in a universe with ranged weapons doesn't make much sense either, there's a reason modern militaries don't equip their soldiers with giant claymores and teach them how to swordfight. You're a bit hung up on the lore, trying to rationalize parts of it and take other parts as gospel. This comment is meant to show you how silly it is to do this, I think you just haven't had your imagination touched by some aspects of the lore and are going after them because of that, to someone else, another fan, perhaps they would have the opposite argument and find nits to pick with those primarchs you believe make sense.

[@enochianwolf]

7:00 Ullanor?

[@dariostabletopminatures]

Timestamps would make this even better! 35:00 Would have been cool If the Writers of the Lore would have taking the Mary Sues out of Horus Heresy! 41:00 Made my DAY! No Double Checking for LEMAN RUSS (writers write so good!) 54:00 hhahahahahah

[@adeptuspotatocus6451]

26:23 I resemble that remark.

[@iuribranco7593]

You definitely missed out not mentioning the Lion

[@BrightBrandi]

Oh boy, the space wolf fans are gonna be upsetty spaghetti

[@ero9841]

I am alpharius

[@davidpenney2392]

Fumble F@#£ made me lol

[@Vroomerz]

It's not that they're twins, they're triplets.