How Ultimate Spider-Man FIXED the Clone Saga

[@OwenLikesComics]

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[@pious83]

I still get a kick out of the tone in Sal's voice when he mentions the names 'Jackal' and 'Judas Traveller'. I'm sure he can't wait for either to be introduced into either the MCU or their own Sony-verse movie....

[@patrickperalta59]

Owen Likes Comics , the 90's Clone Saga was good but I prefer the original Clone Saga in the 1970's since I was a kid in the 70's and teenager in the 80's the early days of Marvel was great I loved the stories of Spider-Man.

[@Tempo1337]

Ultimate Clone Saga worked for one reason: having one creative team without constant editorial interference.

[@jbcatz5]

A clear start and end point helps massively, it fits comfortably in one trade paperback release without being oversized.

[@ginofrancejr555]

True

[@mattway18]

I think that Marvel learned their lesson from the last time.

[@Tempo1337]

@@mattway18 It was a different Marvel. The Quesada era was wonderful

[@mattway18]

@@Tempo1337 some companies don’t learn.

[@galactic85]

My biggest complaint is that after this story Jessica isn't given much to do in the Ultimate universe. She's just kind of thrown around and appears when it's convenient. They could have had her try to mentor miles but they didn't.

[@OwenLikesComics]

Agreed, I know the brought Jessica back during Miles' run but there was so much untapped potential with her character.

[@pious83]

Sadly, the Ultimate universe had a lot of characters like Jessica they just let slip into obscurity.

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

Also ultimate spiderman gets repetitive because he was never allowed to go psst high school

[@FiniteMan1933]

They actually do make Jessica a sort of mentor for Miles, I do wish they did more with her though

[@loganalbert1647]

@@OwenLikesComicsah I agree, especially with her potential as an LGBTQ+ character. I really wish she was brought over into the main marvel universe like Miles.

[@MrKyGuy]

Bendis really did leave such a strong and lasting effect on the legacy of Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man was by big foray into modern day comics. Absolutely love the story.

[@comicpop]

This came out great, Owen! Thanks so much for letting me be a part of it!

[@PN-bc9tc]

Jessica Drew was a big highlight of the clone saga for me. I loved seeing her interactions with Peter and how she helped him find his identity. I definitely wish we got to see her journey in a solo series.

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

“Identity theft isn’t a joke, Octavius! Millions of families suffer every year!” And I think it’s because of Bendis succeeding with the Clone Saga that every mark of a Spider-Man writer’s hubris after Bendis was trying to redo the Clone Saga, but good.

[@pious83]

*Cough, Cough* The Clone Conspiracy *Cough*

[@OverlyPositiveFanboy]

Wait, how many are there? All I can think of is Clone Conspiracy and Miles' Saga.

[@ChuloAA]

I genuinely love Ultimate Jess and wish we got to see her in a solo book really going through that self discovery

[@Glitchtophertm]

Legitimately, I have told people that I want the MCU to adapt clone saga. But when I tell them that, I tell them that I want the ultimate Spider-Man version.

[@TangledLion]

I'll be honest, Ultimate Jess deserves more spotlight. She is such a goldmine for so much...

[@lotty.]

I know that we got Miles instead (which I'm extremely grateful for as Miles rocks) but I wish we had her take the mantle that Peter left behind. I also think that, due to her still having the mind of Peter, she should have become a transmasc character who would have become the next Ultimate Spider-Man.

[@TangledLion]

@@lotty. Oh for sure, Miles is top tier. And yeah Jess being transmasc makes sense though honestly I kinda like the implications that arise if Jess WEREN'T transmasc, as that has some interesting implications about Peter as well...

[@lotty.]

@@TangledLion Or just implications of writers who don't understand how gender works

[@TheNick1536]

Yeah, Ultimate Jess had a lot of potential but was sadly underutilized

[@TillmanStudios]

@@justarandomdude.9285 She's not transgender, for one. She was 'born' as a girl. It's just confusing because she has the memories of a boy. Her arc is to come to terms that she's not a boy, but a girl. Oposite of transgender. And Peter was disguested because, if you think about it, Jessica is basically his sister.

[@graefx]

I forget when I was exposed to the Clone Saga. I was still young but it was after its publication so I consumed it via a spider-man encyclopedia. The character designs always stuck with me and the broad strokes explanation made it sound really good and interesting. I'm somewhat equally aware of the ultimate clone saga but I can't say I ever associated them with each other. Probably a credit to Bendis's writing and execution.

[@owensreviews625]

So glad you’re making a video talking about the ultimate clone saga. Seeing as how you already made a video about the original, it only made sense to see you cover this.

[@TheFLAMEXD]

Two Owens? I am blessed! 😁

[@Guy4318]

The original Clone Saga highlights the loose relationship we have with time and comics both as a reader and within the panels. I had heard how bad it was before reading it as a kid, but I wasn’t really into comics so I was able to read the whole thing in one sitting via a friend who did. Within the comics I was entertained while sometimes lost with their scattershot focus to each already shifting character arc. Overall it ended up feeling like a thin, “Lol Peter’s life sux lol” joke stretched to the point of parody when they finally killed the whole thing off. The more direct allegory of Peter wrestling with literal different aspects of himself in the Ultimate Clone Saga was Bagley and Bendis at their best. It ain’t subtle and it’s all the more strengthened for it. I also love how it cemented the ultimate Doc Ock as one potential endpoint for Peter, playing as many sides as possible with his power and persuasion to take care of himself instead of others.

[@LyricYard237]

Ultimate Jessica Drew had sooo much potential. In her perspective, she’s a male living in a female’s body with memories of Peter Parker. It could’ve been awesome to see her grow and develop as a person. They could’ve tackled a lot of themes with her but they act like she never existed

[@Mr_ULTMT]

Love this arc, and I loved seeing this crossover between you two, awesome work

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you!

[@MattDraper]

Wishing you and yours a Merry Julyder-Man, Owen!

[@Powherkrangunch]

As a fan of the original Ben Reilly character, based in part off of how cool his costume looked to me as a kid, I'm glad to hear his character was still incorporated into the Ultimate series version. I would definitely like to look up more on this series.

[@danielwick6088]

Clone Saga was my and my Brothers Childhood, we absolutely loved the plot twist back then and even to this day I got fond memories of it. Thus it suprises me to hear that it has such a controversial.

[@RichyBmusical]

As a fan of Ben Reilly from the 90s Spider-Man cartoon, I read the 90s clone saga when the complete saga released in graphic novels. I went through a spectrum of emotions and whiplash with every issue. There were some serious problems but being that I didn't read it in the 90s I got to appreciate it on my own time. I love Ben's struggle to find an identity for himself outside of Spider-Man and Peter Parker, yet he can't deny that those are ultimately a part of who he is, he just remixes them (with the ever memorable scarlet spider). Peter at that time was also struggling with anger, becoming more edgy the reflect the changing dark comic landscape. For me the 90s clone saga is about a man and his wayward clone coming to terms with each others existence and the saga does that but it also gets muddled with side plots and that go nowhere. I never read the clone saga from ultimate Spider-Man but this video just gave me another reason to go back to that series. Thanks Owen

[@JTR_3]

I feel the best way to define USM is that is feels like a manga in a lot of ways. It's very self contained (mostly because there were barely events outside of it) , you feel time passing, the events adding up, the power ups and experience flowing perfectly. The arcs are very different and engaging, the character progression is palpable and the world feels alive and unstuck compared to the 616.

[@guiwonsik]

Yep I have the full collection up to this day. Marvel fcked it up so much at the end. Up to this day. It's unbelievable. I buy only European comics after that.

[@ProjektTaku]

so essentially: Invincible with spider-man.

[@brion0220]

I might be in the minority, but I kind of love the original Clone Saga. It starts off amazing. Those first 6 months are stellar and the second 6 are still top notch. Sure the 2nd year dropped in quality (with some sporadic highlights). But then it ended strong with the 'Secrets' issue & Revelations arc.

[@RamManNo1]

It’s really not bad at all. I recently just reread it all through in one shot and the story is not as convoluted as people make it out to be. People just hate on it cuz it’s the thing to do I think.

[@brion0220]

@@RamManNo1 True. I can understand people not liking the big Ben Reilly reveal at the time, but once they finished it and gave it such a great ending, you'd think people would be able to say that as a whole it was a pretty great 2 year mega story line. Plus the NEXT year or so of Peter stories after the Clone Saga were pretty great too. Especially JM DeMatteis on Spectacular Spider-Man. He organized the next Green Goblin appearance after the Clone Saga final arc and it was so good.

[@RamManNo1]

@@brion0220 when they brought Norman back, my initial response was I thought he should’ve stayed dead. But actually it worked really well. They nailed down some good stories with him. And Pete kinda needed his own “Lex Luthor” to play off of. The Spidey crew handled it well👍

[@s.p.d.magentaranger1822]

I think the main reason why it's "hated" is that it's convoluted as heck.

[@edmaldonado8207]

I can't express how much I love Ultimate Spider-Man. Probably the best modern Spider-Man run.

[@keimmanuel]

I don't remember much of the clone saga in the ultimate series but I do like the DeFalco and Mackie limited series.

[@94evangelion]

The more I think about the Clone Saga & OMD, why did so many writers & editors had such resentment towards the marriage? From the fan-letters I read in several late 80s/early 90s Spidey issues, most readers had no problem with the marriage. Also, in the newlywed era of 1987-1993, sales were still healthy, in some cases, there was a lot of sharp increases, especially with Venom's debut.

[@marginalhero4783]

I started reading the original clone saga as a kid and it's what got me into comics. Blood Brothers part 2 was my first comic and I read and re-read that comic over and over again. I loved it. Ben was already Spiderman, Peter was de-powered, and I was so interested in putting the story together. I'm not blind to the problems in the story and the some bad art, bad writing at times, but overall, I still love the clone saga. I've always felt it was a great idea only hampered by writers and editors who had no idea where they were taking the story. I own it all now on trade, as well as the original issues, and will still go back and reread at times. This ComicPop guy is certainly welcome to feel the way he does, I would not invalidate that, but calling the clone saga creatively bankrupt and that nobody was asking for Marvel to return to it, I think is just so close minded and wrong. It's still my favourite thing in comics when characters like Ben Reilly or Kaine show up. I would buy a Kaine centered comic so fast! While I hate how Ben was recently made a villain, I'm still invested in his character, one of my favourites in all comics.

[@dodkatt591]

The fact that scorpions are arachnids just like spidersa are in real life, makes the ultimate scoprion, being a Spiderman clone, even better for the story.

[@Rain-King]

"Ultimate Spider-Man" was my introduction to the character in comics as a wee lad, and in my opinion, this series is still the best distillation of the character - a manageable 160 issues with a very high batting average and an actual ending. I think its quality gets overshadowed somewhat by the genius introduction of Miles Morales.

[@guiwonsik]

The problem is... It didn't have a real ending. Just a clusterfck of events. I used to collect, buying every month. But by the end of the ultimate universe I simply gave up

[@Rain-King]

@@guiwonsik Granted, the lack of definitive endings and closure plagues superhero comics as a whole. But I would argue that Ultimate Spider-Man has two pretty good stopping points: (1) the end of the "Ultimatum" storyline, where Jameson writes a eulogy for Spider-Man and we eventually find out that he made it out alive (something of a happy ending) or (2) the "Death of Spider-Man" storyline, where he sacrifices himself to stop the Green Goblin for good and save Queens (a more bittersweet ending). While far from perfect, I found these endings mostly satisfactory. I do think Miles Morales got shafted, though, beginning with such strong stories only for the whole "Ultimate" brand to get shuffled into the fustercluck of mainstream Marvel continuity. I stopped reading somewhere in the middle of the Miles stories.

[@guiwonsik]

@@Rain-King exactly. I did the same. I have like 5 issues from the miles era (before it merged with 616). I didn't even read the Galactus ending the universe arc, just saw some comic KZbin channels talking about it. Such a disappointment. But I agree with you about those two "closure" moments, were definitely great, immonen ending his run with that legendary issue, and then Bagley returning to (kinda) end the saga. Yeah it was great while it lasted. To bad quesada days are gone and I don't buy/read a single marvel comic anymore.

[@guiwonsik]

Also, Peter parker, Gwen and human torch all living under aunt may house was a good ideia. I thought the ultimate universe would re-emerge. I was just being optimistic. I guess this run was a year or so?

[@whosdooley]

I remember when I first bought the volume as a kid. This Arc and the venom arc are my favorites Arcs in Ultimate Spider-Man’s run.

[@patrickangelobalasa]

Great video! The Ultimate Clone Saga is in some ways the true fulfillment of the promise of the original 90s story, one that didn't have to deal with tie-ins or shifting creative teams.

[@loganthomas2421]

Venom and the clone saga were two of my favorite arcs in Ultimate Spider-Man. Love the series and hope you make more videos on it

[@benparrish672]

Awesome collaboration! ComicPop is my fav channel & I always love your breakdowns Owen .

[@OwenLikesComics]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@shvniji2490]

Kinda glad Bagley got his redemption on the clone saga, he probably got hated just for doing his job

[@Cosmicillustrator]

Not gonna lie, I’ve always loved the idea of Ben Riley being the original Peter Parker and having Peter live happily ever after with MJ and press forward with Ben Riley Spider-Man. I don’t think having Peter post-original Clone fight being a clone makes him an imposter or invalidates anything, he’s still the character you followed all of those issues later. If only it was part of a better/more focused story, I think it coulda been great!

[@ShowdeQuetzal]

I remember an unintentionally funny momment at the end, where the X-men arrive full in costume to help, they realize everything is being fixed, Kitty asks Professor X to erase Aunt May's memory of being Spider-Man, Professor X is like "nha"

[@TevyaSmolka]

I love the ultimate clone saga of ultimate Spider-Man it was really awesome and gave us a great character with ultimate spiderwoman who was really awesome and badass.

[@terrealbrown4420]

Thanks for putting this together.

[@coopdville855]

I loved the Ultimate Clone Saga. It was really only the Clone Saga in name only,and that was surely the only way it would have ever worked. The whole thing reads like a fever dream that the Ultimate Peter Parker is having. There were several points in the story where I was thinking,"There's no way that all of this is real and will affect anything once this story is finished." But it WAS actually happening,and it DID change the book's status quo after the fact. It was shocking and really cool,and there were no retroactive continuity rug pulls. All sadly rare occurrences in the world of comics.

[@comicbookreviewer4856]

The way i always intended to do the clone saga for my marvel universe is for Norman osborn to help fund miles warren work in his cloning project and as a payment would have Ben reilly as his son and heir with his and peter parker DNA being used as Ben would be the youngest of the clones and the way i would add Peter female clone is to be Joyce Delaney due to her DNA being used from Peter parker and Gwen stacy and would have spider-powers and her own superhero persona and the way i would do Kaine is to be one of the fail clones the same with doubleganger as Kaine would be kinda like Zelda from the film Pet sematary with only peter parker DNA being used and Doubleganger trying to add in Tarantula DNA being used

[@SuperiorJohn]

You should make a video on JMS Spider-Man, he’s super underrated due to the love that Ultimate got at the same time

[@OwenLikesComics]

I've covered a lot of the bad stories from that time, so it would be fun to look at the rest of JMS' run and appreciate the work he did in revitalising the title.

[@loki_l_1380]

I remember when I first got to this arc while reading Ultimate Spider-Man and it completely knocked my socks off. It was the kind of story that stuck in my thoughts for days after completing it. I love so much how after the beginning Peter is never in the Spider-Man costume. It's such a personal story to Peter because his whole life essentially blows up during it. I love that creative choice so much.

[@darkwoods1954]

I remember the Clone Saga seemed to go on forever! I got through about half of it then stopped buying the comics. Though even that first half I was still buying, I barely really read. I just kept collecting in the hope that they would move on soon. Luckily the animated series gave me more of what I wanted from Spider-man at the time.

[@DarkKnightofAnime]

With how messed up the Clone Saga became I’m amazed someone was even able to pull it off, I mean tweaking it maybe but fixing it feels like a tall order

[@reidcunningham5906]

I wonder how many times Owen has said "contemporary reimagining"

[@OwenLikesComics]

Imagine if someone paid me for every time I said it...

[@FormalFilmsProductions]

I absolutely enjoyed how they adapted the story and fixed things

[@chriscampanozzi6516]

Great information as always, thank you.

[@ElizaGWR]

There's a statement constantly made about the original clone saga that kind of annoys me. The statement that Peter being revealed as the clone ruined the story for them. That it made them feel like the stories they had read over the last what, 19 years, didn't matter because they were following a fake protagonist. How does Peter being the clone make him a fake protagonist? It's a statement that is saying that what matters is the circumstances of ones birth or creation not their actions. And that is a garbage belief. Because that's not what matters, because over those 19 years, if Peter was the clone he still did all those things, he wasn't a fake, being the clone makes him no less a person than Ben Reilly if he had been the real one. It's like the opposite of when they brought Wonder Man back from the dead and tried to do a love triangle between him, Vision, and Wanda with Wanda eventually saying, it doesn't matter that you are the original where Vision's brain comes from, Vision is still Vision. Whenever I hear someone who is a fan of comics say that following a clone, or a duplicate, or a legacy, takes away from their legitimacy of the character it annoys me. Yes there were lots of problems with the original clone saga, but Peter potentially being the clone was not one of them, because whether was the clone or the original, all those things still happened to him, and you still got to experience that journey with him. To say that him being the clone ruined your experience of the storyline says more about your beliefs than the story and the writers.

[@Bryan-gy2zu]

It stings because in this case, it's not an organic story revelation; it's pure shock value. What I don't agree with is conflating legacy characters with what the Clone Saga did. Legacy characters often come a place of good intentions and are about honoring the past and continuing the adventure with more different, if not more modern characters/sensibilities.

[@omnibusman5792]

That is a very interesting perspective. I was pretty jaded reading the clone saga in real time as a kid. I look at things through a different lens reading these thing's as an adult with my kids. I have the original clone saga collected in omni's and have yet to get to it. My kids and I have been reading a lot of spider-man lately, and I want to hold off on the clone saga until they get a bit of history of Peter parker under thier belt. Just to see if they have the same reaction I did. It will be fun, and now i'll have a new perspective that I can show them. It has always been a saga I always wanted to go back and read. Later in life, I thought it was a cool idea that I probably couldn't see as a kid. No matter how it came about. I appreciate the input.

[@ElizaGWR]

@@Bryan-gy2zu How was it not organic. Even in the original clone saga they mentioned that both had the full memory, leaving that hint that either could be the clone or the original.

[@ArcTrooper269]

Another Arc the Ultimate Universe adapted pretty awesome was Iron Man: Armor Wars in 2009

[@paulloughlin3732]

Crackin’ video Owen! I started reading comics in the mid 90’s and that started with Astonishing Spider-Man, the European reprint of The Amazing Spider-Man, Peter Parker: Spider-Man and I think The Spectacular Spider-Man. I remember reading the reprints of The Clone Saga and enjoying it, (I was a big fan of Judas Traveller!) especially the darker tone that Spidey was given. I remember Ultimate Spider-Man launching but never got around to reading any of, stuck to the 616 stuff (being a school kid I couldn’t afford to splash out on all the comics I wanted to read!), however with the recent reprint of the Ultimate Spider-Man omnibus I’ve started, some 20 odd years later and I’m loving it!

[@blankkosocal5030]

Great episode and feature guest. This is why we and Owen love comics Ben Reilly is the real Peter Parker. I'll die on that hill

[@benparrish672]

Kaine Parker is the best clone & one of my favorite characters. I always wanted to see Kaine Parker "The Real Scarlett Spider" & Warren Worthington the 3rd Archangel team up

[@jamesmason7979]

Ultimate Clone Saga wasn't one of my favorite arcs, but I thought it was pretty solid and had a good payoff. And I really appreciated how Bendis was able to re-work the characters so they made sense in the Ultimate universe.

[@MIRLZY]

I'll never forget going into the library day 1 of middle school and seeing just about every vol.1 trade of the ultimate universe. Made going to the library awesome

[@Peachgorillafit]

I really enjoy your videos! I read this story as it came out - before I read the 616 version actually - and loved it.

[@strangelovemd1]

9:11 there’s a blog out there detailing every detail of the making of the Clone Saga.

[@trench900]

I feel like the MJ goblin thing was a massive missed opportunity in the long run. There was a moment in the first issue after the UCS ended where MJ's hand is shaking, implying that Reed Richards' "cure" wasn't really all that effective. Like imagine Peter having to deal with another instance of that in the ultimate universe. That would've been a very interesting and gripping story to tell in it's own right. Good arc, but that just kinda bothers me.

[@xyzz8722]

To this day, I barely read any 616 stories, but re-read UU multiple times.

[@Matt_El_Comicologo84]

Awesome video Owen 👍🏼👍🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 A little note about Ultimate Spider-Man, let's not forget it was actually Peter Cuneo (former Vice Chairman of Marvel Comics from 1999 to 2009, starting first as chief executive officer) that actually implanted the idea to relaunch Marvel Comics to Bill Gemas so the editorial could reach out new readers and that became profitable with the brand Ultimate as we all known well😎

[@ericpeterson8732]

My favorite part of the Ultimate Clone Saga is when Fury shows up to arrest Gwen and reveals all the Clone insanity, Peter asks, "Why aren't I in a coma now? Shouldn't my brain just give out on me now and just go into a coma!!?? My dad, my aunt, Gwen, this... Who can take this much #$%^ in one day???" It was a very emotional issue. So well done, like most of USM. Shame they tired of the character and wanted a black Spiderman, Miles Morales. And they decided to end the ultimate line.

[@Palliser99]

It’s incredible how the most underwhelming story was transformed into the most captivating story possible

[@KinzuNight]

The original Clone Saga started off really well. It's what actually pulled me into comics. I thought the twist of Ben Reilly being the real Peter Parker was good twist and allowed the writers to tell different Spider-Man stories for a year. The failure of the Saga came from how it handled Peter's return, and bringing back Norman. I also felt like the Lost Years stuff was to dark. They could have done a better job telling Peter and MJ stories during this time to further their bond, and then made that bond mean something upon his return.

[@ronb113]

Another great video all around!

[@Neyebureturns]

I started reading Marvel comics thanks to Ultimate Spider-Man, really loved them. For me, this story was like a victory dance: We have done great stories for 100 issues, we can ever make you love one you hated.

[@OwenLikesComics]

Well said!

[@benjaminandrew9057]

I loved the Ultimate Universe. I've thought to go and collect all the TPBs of the runs someday.

[@FullForce098]

I have no idea who this ComicPop guy but good lord he's talking about having to read a bad comic book storyline like it was legit traumatic.

[@TevyaSmolka]

I still maintained the clone saga could've worked if the marketing team didn't take control of the story and messed it up badly really badly and personally I would've been all on board for Ben riley Scarlet Spider becoming the main Spider-Man and peter and Mary jane had there daughter Mayday parker spider-girl alive and kicking in the mainstream marvel universe but for some stupid reason marvel refuses to pull the trigger and just doesn't want peter parker and MJ be parents which is just and mess up on so many levels that it ain't even funny but just sad and depressing at least in my opinion.

[@opposite_hedgehog_753]

I think the problem is that plot line was introduced as a marketing gimmick. I feel that saga should never been written or introduced. But you got to remember, Marvel wants their Death of Superman and Knightfall. (In my opinion, Knightfall is the best because it shows what Batman could be if he’s like a 90s comic “hero”. As it is something scary and unsettling instead heroic. By allowing Azreal take on the mantle, and screw Batman’s image by (almost murdering people on purpose, being aggressive against Gordon, hostile with Tim Drake, etc. It wasn’t just for marketing, it becomes a deconstruction of the anti-hero trope. So when Bruce becomes Batman again, we are relieved that we want a Batman that isn’t a punisher or spawn like character. But instead a crime fighter who can control himself if he wants to. That’s my huge issue with the clone saga. It did not deconstruct Spider-Man , because the black suit saga already done that. Marvel wants to have no marriage with MJ, so instead of killing her off so that Peter can suffer more to move the story. We instead stuck at this Peter can’t marry problem. I prefer MJ die of childbirth so that Peter could be a single father. This can open more relationships with new love interest, while maturing the character by being a single father.

[@opposite_hedgehog_753]

@Zarius well Marvel refused to let Peter get married, so prefer death than this nonsense we have.

[@rhamnation7236]

They really despised that married.

[@dragon_ninja_2186]

When someone can take a divisive comic run and not only fix it but make it better they deserve major props and respect. Also Ultimate Jessica Drew would resonate with current day issues if we ever get a live action adaptation.

[@buffbeenstuffed]

I like Sal was turned away after the mid 90's clone saga and for a long time stayed away from comics. However around the time I had returned to that world and it was just after Miles Morales was introduced I started to catch up with the Ultimates line. When I got to this version of the clone saga I was dreading it (being pre conditioned from the last one) however I left it pleasantly surprised, streamlined and a better story with better set up it was a huge sigh of relief.

[@TG-IE14]

I have the full ultimate fun from Spider-Man #1 to Ultimate End #5.

[@ramonoctaviofloresmeza6780]

22:15 What about the clone Tarántula? What kind of Parallel does It draw about the duality of the wall crawler?

[@ethanhansen1479]

This sounds weird and crazy but I love ultimate Spider-Man more than the main universe.

[@pious83]

I can certainly relate to Sal tapping out due to a bad run. I grew up with X-Men and adored it all. Reading everything from the late 80's right up until the year 2000. Then came "Revolution", featuring the Goth and Neo. X-Treme X-Men and lastly, the abysmal Chuck Austin UXM run. That's when I walked away. It wasn't until much later I saw some all new trades - New X-Men and Ultimate X-Men (oddly enough). Both got me back in. Although I stuck with trades until the Hickman run started.

[@briandaleske5139]

I think it might be good to have this story set put into a SPIDER-MAN cartoon show series someday. In addition I imagine that the title of the series might be titled as (MEGA ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN) or it might be titled as (ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN: EARTH-207). The reason why I imagined the title of (ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN: EARTH-207) is because the first part of ComicBook stories set came out APRIL 18, 2007.

[@obi_dean]

Yes we got a Sal cameo!

[@OwenLikesComics]

I don't think it can classify as a cameo when Sal is in 30% of the video haha

[@obi_dean]

@@OwenLikesComics good point! Great video too!

[@KalKratos]

Can you really call Ultimate Spider-Woman transgender? I think it is way more complicated than transgender. This is a young woman who was never biologically a male, but all her memories are of being a biological male. Way more complicated.

[@OwenLikesComics]

It's definitely complex. I'd argue Bendis does write Jessica as a trans woman but I understand why people may not think that phrasing is wholly accurate. Either way I think she's a great character who I wish Marvel did more with.

[@KalKratos]

@@OwenLikesComics I, too, think she was an interesting character, but couldn't have much done about her since Ultimatum was in the planning stages I bet by that point, and then the Death of Peter Parker happened a little while after that. Plus, given her origin, it's kind of difficult to figure out where to take the character.

[@TransSoulAlesha]

I'd say she is. It uses comic book techno-magic, but, it's still a character who "lived" a life as male, and then chose to live as a woman afterwards. I think that choice to identify and to be a woman is what cements her as trans. Honestly, cutting off her ties with aunt May and everyone she knew, and living somewhere else is probably the transest thing that could be written, even if it wasn't the creator's intention. There's a lot of trans parallels in her story as well, especially with trying to reconcile those memories of a lived experience as "someone else" who experienced life as a different gender and trying to decide if those experiences still fit you.

[@KalKratos]

@@TransSoulAlesha The problem with that is that she didn't choose to be a woman. It was thrust upon her through the circumstances of her origin. After the Clone Saga, she chose to accept her new reality. And I'm not saying she's not trans. I'm saying it is way more complicated than trans. Trans only just begins to describe the complicated relationship she has with her gender.

[@TransSoulAlesha]

@@KalKratos She does choose and affirm her identity as a woman after being created. Jess doesn't go out and buy a binder and go become e1610 Ben Reilly. She's a comic character who gets shot with the sex change gun and decides "i'm happy like this and want to live my life as a woman from now on". It would be one thing if she didn't have memories of a life beforehand like Laura Kinney, but for Jess it's clearly an acknowledgement of a gender and choosing to be female. It's a comic book way of transitioning, but, it's still transitioning. Just like how Sera used magic to transition and is still a trans character, Jess is the same. And a complicated relationship with gender is something that a lot of trans people experience anyways.

[@EVGriffinJr]

Glad to see a video on this and that it’s so comprehensive. The only thing good that came out of the clone saga in the 90s is that we got the character Ben Reilly. Beyond that, it was a convoluted mess. The 1977 Spider-Man TV series also did a one episode about a clone. Ironically, it was one of the few highlights that both fans of the show and critics seem to like.

[@diegodreossi1458]

Ultimate Spider Woman is my favorite version

[@alexandrefrauches132]

While I enjoyed the Ultimate Clone Saga, my favorite arc from this run is Spider Man first conflict with Doctor Octopus, which has many great moments, including Peter fight against Octopus and Kraven and the ending perfect capture the spirit of Spider Man stories with the hero saving the day in the end but suffering the consequences for his decisions.

[@gareckthetailor9918]

peter david's revival of ben riley in the scarlet spider is pretty cool too

[@rolandoalvarado2979]

I was totally in love with Jessica drew. !!!

[@davissmedley5937]

As much as I love how they fixed the Clone Saga in this series...there is one *major* problem I have with it that unfortunately keeps me from genuinely liking it. That being...May kicking Peter out of her house and basically *disowning* him after learning that he’s Spider-Man. Umm...yeah, just...no. No, no, no, nonononononononononono *hell* no. Her being slightly disappointed that Peter didn’t tell her the truth, *that* I can understand, since that’s how it sort of went down in the 616 universe. But *kicking him out*...? Aunt May would never, *NEVER* do something that cruel to Peter, even after finding out something like that. I don’t care that they reconcile in the end, that STILL does not justify this. It’s bad enough that most of the ultimate characters are portrayed as assholes, but to portray Aunt May as such...? That is just...wrong. On *so* many levels.

[@RamManNo1]

Bendis can’t write characters not assholes. That’s like his shtick that everyone seems to think is genius.

[@piercetimko1947]

I have such mixed feelings on that particular part of this arc. On the one hand, God that scene is painful and is so ludicrously out of character for 99% of Aunt May versions that it feels out of left field. I always skip over it every time I reread it. On the other hand, one of the things USM does incredibly well with Aunt May is set up this idea that she's a woman dealing with a ton of unresolved trauma from so many different angles, specifically survivor's guilt/residual grief from Uncle Ben's very recent death and the fact that she keeps getting caught in close proximity to super-powered conflicts and wack-ass conspiracies while everyone close to her drops dead (or seems to). In that context, I actually think her horrendous attitude and attempts to straight up disown Peter for supposedly bringing the crazy into her life via Spider-Man while she's left grieving for so many people are absolutely depressing but honestly kind of a logical conclusion for her to make at this point, especially when put against the backdrop of the fucking Clone Saga of all possible stories. TL; DR: That plot point is awful to read but actually serves a purpose to May's development and is set up very well (unlike most examples of Ultimate characters being assholes) so mixed feelings

[@doncheadlegaming7521]

Ultimate Spider-Man is probably the best Spider-Man run and story because of it’s arcs. It’s realistic but not morbidly hyper realistic.

[@JacobElyachar]

The Ultimate Clone Saga remains one of my all-time Spider-Man stories! Great work from Bendis and Bagley. I loved the villainous mastermind and how they incorporated so many modern days ideas such as Peter's reveal of identity to Aunt May, giving Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy terrifying powers, and more.

[@jessesurtees5043]

Please consider reviewing SpiderGirl in the future. It's the best book I love it so much.

[@outpostalpha]

Ultimate Spider-Man is such a great run of comics, and I love to hear Owen talk about how much it means to him. And getting to hear from Sal was a nice treat, too!

[@AkiDave]

A certified hood classic (both the story and this video 💙)

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you!

[@AkiDave]

@@OwenLikesComics Ofc man 💙

[@ginofrancejr555]

Awesome video review I love bendis ultimate Spider-Man series he is the most influential spiderman writer of the 21st century. Will you cover more USM storylines and also miles morales

[@bigjake360t]

If the Ultimate Clone Saga, is a that story better version of that story. The No Way Home is a better version of One More Day. In my opinion.

[@OomaGooma]

Great video. But I expect no less. 👍🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻🥇🥇🙂

[@OwenLikesComics]

Thank you!

[@jackrucinsky6205]

It's finally here.

[@sethleoric2598]

I like to think it's because they took what was a neat idea and then a convoluted comic event and then decided to just stick with it being a neat idea.

[@SelfReassuringTitle]

This is a really good comic, if anyone is wondering. Definitely worth the read

[@forrestyoung4425]

Ultimate Spider-Man was one of my favorite comics. I love the series. But the one thing that bothers me about the entries series is, that entire timeline of the comic takes place within one year. From issue one to the Death of Spider-Man is one year.

[@guiwonsik]

I'm my opinion, bendis made that up when he was about to leave the title/end the ultimate universe. There's no way that it took only one year. At least three years. I would contrast with the ultimates 1 and 2. But I guess bendis didn't care about Millar's timeline either.

[@JRGomez81]

With stories like the original Clone Saga, One More Day or Sins of the Past it often seems like Spider-Man is popular in spite of Marvel...

[@peronafanman]

Can you make a video about the Founding Members of the Avengers? Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Ant-Man and the Wasp?

[@okidokicreations1075]

I havent read it yet, but I will, great work and congratulations for your work 🏆🏅🏆🏅🏆👍🥇😊🥇😊👑🎖👏🤗👏👏👏👏👍🏅🏆🏆

[@blaketfg9374]

Clone Jessica Drew is my favorite version of Jessica Drew. Miles was so close to having a relationship with her in the comics. They pretty much adopted her interactions with miles into Gwen in into the spider verse

[@SicMundus-XCV]

I don't think there's anything that indicates that Jessica is transgender and it doesn't seem to be implied anywhere, she's just a female clone of Peter, if anything the writer is just exploring the concept of being and self identity which last I check are the standards of any human being, especially a Teenager that just so happens to be a clone.

[@dylanc.8437]

My favorite part of the Clone Saga came from Nick Fury finally getting the chewing out he so richly deserved , and him finally acknowledging that Peter did not deserve what Fury did to him out of fear.

[@UltimateSpider1385]

I'm definitely going to read The Ultimate Universe Comics Line. I already some issues of The Ultimates and Ultimates 2. I'm still trying to read The Ultimates and I'm going to read Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Fantastic Four, Ultimate DareDevil and Elektra, and Ultimate Spider-Man: Miles Morales.

[@OwenLikesComics]

Good choice!

[@frankbarrie6785]

Great vid! Def getting a like 👍 from me!