Paladin Class Changes in D&D 2024

[@carsonrafuse2391]

I like that Colby in his video today said "An Unnamed Content Creator Friend asked an Unnamed game designer about Dual Wielder" and Monty just straight up confimed it here 😂 Love the continuity between my faves!

[@DnDDeepDive]

I didn't want to steal his Thunder! 🙃

[@carsonrafuse2391]

@@DnDDeepDive this is why we love you Colby!

[@EpicMuttonChops]

@@DnDDeepDive it took me 6 tries to speak your username right XD

[@DrakeAurum]

INB4 Monty says "Pick up a level of Fighter".

[@DrakeAurum]

Ooh, looks like this one's the exception.

[@AndrewThoesen]

Might be the only class lol

[@jaspermooren5883]

​@@DrakeAurum I mean paladins get most of the stuff fighters get anyway. You have the same armour/weapon proficiencies. The same weapon mastery, and a fighting style. So there's not a lot of benefit to taking 1 level of fighter for a paladin. Really the 1 big benefit of fighter over paladin at 1st level is constitution saving throws, which is very good for casters in particular. Although I think Paladin is also a great pick on any class that wants a fighter level (access to 1st lvl paladin spells, including divine smite at 1st lvl is nothing to sneeze at). Fighter/Paladin multiclass just has a lot of overlap, particularly at low level. It's probably better to go straight fighter or straight paladin rather than a mix.

[@dbzdiehard7209]

​@jaspermooren5883 if we are looking at first level only, I'll probably always take paladin now

[@matthewhelmers1426]

Kelly said "look at the big picture" and Monty looked at the big picture. Amazing! Also- Colby explored the dual wield Vengeance paladin with today's build!

[@killcat1971]

Yeah it's a case of bad design, there is now one "optimum" build, it's been poorly thought out.

[@nickm9102]

​@@killcat1971 More to the point, unless you build your fighter the same way Paladin is now a better fighter at an earlier lvl.

[@killcat1971]

@@nickm9102Yup. Hence bad design, good design is many ways that all work with only a few specific differences, rather than "X is far superior to everything else".

[@burntcustard]

@@killcat1971 There will be other good builds. Like ones that don't take 3 rounds to get up to full speed, or don't require concentration, or don't require being as MAD

[@jaspermooren5883]

​@@killcat1971I don't know if that is really true yet, but 2 weapon fighting does seem to become a lot more popular than it was in 5e. I guess it's gonna be like the 3.5 days where if all you care about is damage potential 2 weapon fighting is pretty much top dog. There's more to combat though than raw numbers, and taking nick means you're not taking stuff like the one that moves stuff 10 ft for example. And wielding 2 weapons is also relatively worse with magic weapons, since you need 2 magic weapons to really gain the full benefit. I don't think you can say based on a very limited set of parameters that 2 weapon fighting really is objectively the best. Other build options still seem very viable. It's just that 2 weapon fighting has become viable after basically not being viable at all for 10 years. There are too many ways to get a bonus action attack without requiring 2 weapon fighting that the old +1 attack as a bonus action that is not even good without the fighting style just couldn't compete against (both polearm master and crossbow expert were just more efficient ways of getting a bonus action attack, or class features like monks have). But having a 2nd/3rd attack with your attack action is pretty huge, so it's now quite viable now that the nick property exists. But to really make it a lot of damage requires quite a bit of setup and resources, so I'm not that worried that a paladin can do tons of damage burning several spell slots just to do tons of damage in a 3rd round, which is probably close to the end of the combat anyway. If you want a high AC sword and board is still good, and big weapons maybe aren't as king as they used to be, but GWM is still really good, and at high enemy ACs actually better than the old feat (and at least in my experience all the combats where it actually matters the enemies had 20+ AC anyway, so the old GWM actually wasn't even worth it, since taking the -5/+10 actually reduced your damage output on average). Dual wielding with the dual wielder feat has a pretty high opportunity cost, so it's not as good as it may seem, I don't think it's as much better as most people think it is when you compare it to other builds in the 2024 rules. Particularly if you're fighting in an actually interesting environment with cliffs/balconies/pits, objectives other than killing the enemies or really anything that any combat should have in the game rather than a white box where you just stand next to each other trying to out damage the opponent.

[@MrFirefan1234]

I think if Divine Smite was once per turn but didn't have an action/BA cost it would also still be fine. Which is exactly how Eldritch Smite works and that invocation is unchanged from hownit used to work in 2014

[@dkamouflage]

Indeed. To quote the Godfather: *"Look how they massacred my boy!"*

[@ajdynon]

I don’t mind Paladins smiting less often, but I’m annoyed by WotC’s mindset of “never let anything that could possibly be a spell not be a spell”.

[@mattmason3592]

@@ajdynon YES!! 1/turn smiting is justified, and I didn't like the bonus action usage to smite, but I could've grudgingly lived with it. That said, turning a class feature into a spell makes me irrationally annoyed. I really wanted LESS spells as features, but instead we got more. HM could've been a feature IMO, plus all the spells handed out as species features is just lazy to me. Make them abilities, even if they mimic spells. In the end, it probably doesn't really change much, but it was the principle for me.

[@Klaital1]

The difference is that eldritch smite is for a class that gets all of 2 spell slots.

[@valor144]

I dont doubt the fact that overall it still deals good damage. However I hate the philosophy of having your most iconic ability being kind of meh and also I dont understand why we had to go from absolute nova delete boss in one round to being the most slow building sustained damage dealer

[@Top_Knite]

I really wished they just changed Divine Smite from 5e to just be once per turn and not able to be used with other "smite" spells. It would've accomplished what they wanted without ruining barb/pld multiclass, polearm master paladin, or misty stepping into smiting. Of course this wont come up in everyone's build but it just feels like all it did was take away options that didnt need to be taken. Also as fellow enjoyers of the "Dresden Files" you can understand my pain that I can't make my Summer/ Winter Knight inspired class with Archfey warlock and Oath of the Ancient Paladin because even though I can get around the spell requirement with all the free casts they get, making divine smite a bonus action just absolutely kills it. Just seems so overkill of a change

[@cookie8162]

I disagree, what your describing sounds way over powered and honestly I hope you have a dm that was prepared for that, if not I have a feeling a lot of your table mates didn't get turns

[@Top_Knite]

@@cookie8162 LOL I am the dm at my table and in what way is that too strong? It's literally what they did for Warlock's "Eldrich Smite" except they didn't add the "cant be used with other smite spells" stipulation I added, so they had a similar mechanic in game that can be used and is even better than what I described

[@joelsasmad]

​@@cookie8162Get out of here with that.

[@Smucklz]

I honestly think they should have simply put can only be used once per turn. It would nerf divine smite in the way they wanted without messing up the action economy

[@valor144]

totally agreed there's one thing nerfing smite cause it was OP (which let's not kid ourselves it was) and another to having no reason to use it

[@DontCryJustJeskai]

Anyone else find it hilarious that the Ranger is defined by HUNTERS MARK that the Vengeance Paladin ALSO GETS

[@DungeonDudes]

Technically a high level ranger can do a lot more with it than a vengeance paladin can. I think one subclass of a different class borrowing bits from another class is not only fine, but exciting.

[@DontCryJustJeskai]

@@DungeonDudes fair, Ranger with Shilleleigh quarterstaff and Polearm Master is gonna go pretty hard with Hunters Mark.

[@CrzyHavvk]

@@DontCryJustJeskai Given you can shillelagh a club, which is light, can open you up for some TWF options to have a bigger damage die for whichever light weapon you swing the most since the damage scales on it now as well. Shillelagh just looks pretty solid for martials who can get it.

[@guardiantree8879]

The passive aggressive shade thrown at the 2024 Ranger is immaculate lol.

[@queenannsrevenge100]

What’s with the historically bad track records with Rangers in D&D after AD&D 1sr edition? 😄

[@brandoncurtis1636]

Came here to say exactly this. I can’t wait to have my rage at the Ranger’s mishandling validated by the Dudes 😂

[@roguebarbarian9133]

Yeah, it’s at least still an improvement on 2014 ranger, but I don’t know who looked at the Tasha’s version and said, “Nope, this is too strong. Gotta nerf.”

[@DivineBeast-mj7uy]

@@queenannsrevenge100 it comes from a lack of understanding about what the ranger should be. In fact if you took tasha's, and just added simple mechanics based off the current ranger features, then the class would be fixed. I'm working on a homebrew to change the ranger by fixing the rangers greatest failure. And that is the starting features. Instead of picking a terrain, You can spend an hour in any location surveying the nearby geography to gain the benefits of your favored terrain. Additionally, you cannot be surprised while in a location that you surveyed so long as you don't leave that current geographical location(Can be used in a city, and traveling outside the city is still good for use, but you cant be far from its walls or exterior without losing your benefits, so maybe out to ~ 100 feet.) It's limited to your Proficiency bonus, and you regain uses on a long rest. As for favored enemy; as a bonus action, you have the ability to study a target and learn their weaknesses, this would grant you advantage against that opponent or enemy type until the end of your next turn. Or as a reaction, make it so you can basically dodge action by learning their attack patterns(enemy rolls with disadvantage). You can use favored enemy in this way a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus, and regain all spent uses on short rest. You can also change your favored enemy type every short rest. And this stacks at later levels so you can just swap them all out completely.

[@DSpiritwolf]

Has someone who has played a oath of the ancients Paladin the longest, I super welcome the new changes to the channels divinity because I was never able to get it to work and it was super frustrating. I'll also reserve my judgement to their aura change until the monster manual book comes out

[@unknownvalor9755]

Not worth the trade-off, the magic resistance was the hallmark of the Ancients, now the class is pure F tier.

[@TsujiCross]

0:42 wrong title card 😅

[@MultiFloopi]

They changed a paladin so much he became a monk

[@HaydenDuty]

i never smited with every hit, mostly held for crits, now having a swiss army smite, that i can choose from to fit the situation is worth a bonus action to me. if you crit, smite, if you dont just hit with weapon again. the only time it sucks if if you crit with the bonus action attack lol

[@urbanassassin26]

You guys discussed the two weapon fighting Paladin in detail, But I think oath of Vengeance ends up working better for great weapon master paladins. Advantage on every hit means that you do not need to bring a maul. You can pick up a greataxe and maybe a pike as your second weapon and get push to combo with your spellcasters. You can push enemies together and then cleave into them. Divine favor ends up hitting each enemy that you attack even with the cleave. But the best part is that the great weapon Master build has its bonus action freeds for the extra bonus action attack when you kill an enemy. If you're already doing so much damage anyway, The likelihood of you killing an enemy is going to be very high, and that's off of Vengeance the likelihood of critting is already high. So you're going to get this bonus action attack often. If that happens, the great weapon master build does more damage than the dual wielder build, and they still have their bonus action. Always free to switch Hunter's Mark to a different target on the next round. Whereas the two weapon fighting build has so much bonus action bloat that it will be very difficult to keep Hunter's Mark active during a fight while also using your four attacks. Even against a single Target, The difference in damage between the two builds is about 10 to 12 points a round. But the great weapon build is much better when there are multiple targets. So the two weapon fighting build does really strong damage, But the great weapon Master build With cleaving (which adds both radiant strikes and divine favor to the cleave!) and the bonus action attack are more versatile. Also, You can slap charger onto a Paladin build as well and activated every turn with a push weapon to get an extra 1d8 of damage. All that is to say, It's very balanced! I think the class fantasy of a two-weapon character doing really good single Target damage and a great weapon character being able to manipulate the battlefield better is spot on.

[@ShaggySasquach4231]

Of note the new gwm feat does NOT add damage to the bonus action attacks it grants by kill or crit. It’s weird wording

[@urbanassassin26]

@@ShaggySasquach4231 because the bonus attack is already added damage. It is supposed to be a sort of follow-through attack using the weight of the weapon.

[@volosguidetomonsters3440]

Well why wouldn't you carry a maul its a f***ing maul it's the best weaopn ever

[@alexs-roberts5798]

Also remember that Spirit Shroud will take over from Hunter's Mark at level 9 anyway which while it only lasts a minute is just a straight upgrade.

[@broomemike1]

Lol, balanced? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[@DownUnderDM]

This dropped at the same time as D4s new build which is a Dex based Paladin. Hearing Kelly talk about a dual wielding Paladin stacking divine favor and hunters mark with a vengeance pally makes me think Colby & the Dudes are in cahoots. CAHOOTS I SAY!!!!

[@DungeonDudes]

We did talk a lot about new builds over the last few weeks lol. You call it cahoots, we call it excited friendship!

[@shixter]

@@DungeonDudes Wouldn't Pali's who take Magic Initiate to get Shield need to take Warcaster feat in order to cast the spell with full hands (2 weapons or sword and board). I had to do that on a my Sorcadin build... Is it different with Wizards?

[@DnDDeepDive]

@@DungeonDudes I hope everyone can one day find people that they are so enamored by, that they can just intuit what they're thinking about and answer their unspoken desire as they make it >.>

[@chrisvossler8795]

Personally I was wondering if it was intentional or just an unintended crossover! 😂

[@Ox9707]

Thanks for reminding me Colby is making new builds

[@daanopdebeeck2312]

To multiclass into a Paladin you need 13 in Stre and Cha so you already have the Stre requirement for heavy weapons and armor up to Chain Mail.

[@judemiller]

My heart sang when I read that the Devotion Paladin's Sacred Weapon no longer takes a FULL ACTION to activate. My first ever character was a Gold Dragonborn Devotion Paladin, and I have a soft spot for them :)

[@joshdavid9256]

My only frustration with the Paladin change is one that is pretty niche but I have been playing a Barb/Paladin character for a long time and smite being a spell completely undoes him.

[@TerminalDevastation]

The best hope for the Barb/Pally now is if half caster barbarian subclass is released that can cast while raging. After thinking about how that would work though... interestingly enough, the paladin spell list would be pretty balanced for a barbarian, given both are tanky classes, albeit in different ways.

[@alexinfinite7142]

It's the stupidest change and it upsets me to no end. I'm tired of being angry all the time. So tired of having something nice and then having the carpet yanked out from under it. WOTC is too stupid to handle it's own business and "properties"

[@Psuedo-Nim]

It probably for the best really. Combining unlimited and rage effects, (and many other broken multiclass combines that were nerfed by changes) were oddly limiting in terms martials range of options for effectiveness. Also, they were focusing on a reason for Barbarians to remain barbarians. Its a build that existed for mechanical reasons, not anything that really spoke of character types that worked together. (Absolute devotion to an Oath vs unthinking Rage).

[@nathanhedlund836]

@@TerminalDevastation dude a quarter caster barb would be sick, only evocation spells. Main feature would be magical rage- when you enter a rage you may also cast a evocation cantrip for a free action, magic resistance for sure, resistant to Cold, fire, acid, poison while raging. Higher level ability you can sacrifice 1 melee attack to cast a spell.

[@DParkerNunya]

​@@Psuedo-NimNot necessarily. Oath of Vengeance specifically can blend with the base concept of a Barbarian, but more interesting takes of a Barbarian can also blend well with a Paladin Oath. Maybe your violent Berserker has sworn an Oath of Redemption to be more merciful and struggles with relapsing. Maybe your Oath of Glory comes from channeling your rage into being the best of the best. Limiting a Barbarian's Rage to just "unthinking" is both silly and uncreative. All anger comes from somewhere, and how you channel that anger affects who you are. Channel that anger into defending the natural world with a Ancients/Totem (I've forgotten the name) multiclass. This is a game about creativity first, and we shouldn't have to limit our creativity based off of mechanics. Be the Baladin of your dreams.

[@russelldavis1359]

The once per turn smite is good, I just wish they went the other way with it and put all the smite spells into the divine smite feature similar to rogues being able to spend sneak attack damage

[@starbird3939]

Thiiiiiis! Or maybe your oath gives you the choice between what your smites could do?

[@cronykil74]

Pick up magic initiate druid for shillelagh and fight with a club and scimitar, counting the club as your sword sheath. That's going to be my first build 😁

[@axelexplode]

What a fun Nanami style build lol

[@Wintermute909]

The club as a sword sheath is genius!

[@ShadowGeek12]

Whoever was in charge of the palading completely missed the mark with divine smite, making it once per turn would have been good enough, but making it a BA is just unnecerily restrictive

[@xaviertooker3287]

Real talk, I'm still blown away that aura of protection wasn't the thing that got nerfed. To me at least, it was between that and smite when it came to obvious nerfs. Paladin is still insanely strong for aura of protection alone imo.

[@heimtime_lifting]

It did get a slight nerf I believe as it no longer works if you are unconscious or incapacitated. Gives the dm more options to limit them.

[@thomasquesada7248]

Paladin is the tank/support class Let them support Divine Smite was an extremely needed nerf since it completely overshadowed the fighters only niche which is action surge nova

[@EpicRandomness555]

Is a little boost to saving throws really that big a deal?

[@Miggy19779]

Agreed 100%! The real problem ability was the insane (up to) +5 to all saves which trivialised monsters with saving throw attacks. Suddenly your lvl 10 party is looking at +9 to their worst save and +12-14 to their best ones. Take a CR 13 Beholder, suddenly what are meant to be terrifying DC 16 eye rays are not so scary, with even the weakest saves succeding on a 7+ and the best saves on a 4+, 3+, 2+. Unless they increase monster DCs for this edition, I don't see this changing and huge numbers of monsters are trivialised.

[@joshholmes1372]

​@@EpicRandomness555yes lol. It's insanely strong.

[@BeanzimusPrime]

I think the bonus action cost for smite is just too high. Once per turn pick a prepared smite would have been enough of a limitation in and of itself with an expended spell slot. It’s really brutal, and quite limiting considering we now can’t smite with polearm master, none-Nick two weapon fighting, off turn as part of an opportunity attack, set up with hunters mark or any other spell on the same turn, or any other additional feature such as lay on hands for the Aasimar. Playing it feels really, really hamstrung, and at the table it’s almost as if rogue had to spend a bonus action to sneak attack, and choose between cunning action or sneak attack every turn.

[@shoganmajere7913]

exactly that, after certain lvl "jumps" the divine smite becomes more and more useless, because you need to spent higher and higher spell slots ( until you reach a point in tier 4 when you even loose dmg with a 5th lvl ) to even get some dmg increase. and if the increase is 2 or 3 pts and you need to use a 3rd/4th lvl spell slot thats not a good way to spent a limited resource

[@Trauma284]

3round set up is wild. I've rarely had a combat got past 3 rounds.

[@makbeth4245]

19:57 - that was a critical hit on vicious mockery. You killed rangers dead, Kelly

[@socialcommentary]

WotC dropped Rangers to 0 HP and made them fail two death saving throws. Kelly's Vicious Mockery made them fail the last one.

[@psr129]

I am assuming graphics would cost more. But I would be fine with a slide show showing all the math and character builds on screen with a voice for part of it would be ok with me.

[@twowheelz4life205]

Dudes, you have been doing a fantastic job with these recent videos updating the classes in the new 2024 PHB! Thank you!

[@stupidmonkey3866]

My centaur paladin gonna be callin up his brother every fight

[@jugglejunk]

He rides his brother? Well I guess they get along well then ... A bit too well perhaps?

[@joshholmes1372]

Centaur riding a centaur? Weird

[@murphieslaw6932]

@@joshholmes1372 It´s called 'making love', you bigots ! ; D What do you think where all the cute little centaur foals come from ? Well certainly not from brothers riding each other, but you know what I mean.

[@duanebradway1627]

I am really looking forward to playing the new Paladin, but honestly I'm looking forward to figuring out a solid ranger build. Everyone has been super negative about it which makes me want to dig into it and find a way to make it shine.

[@all_thescience]

You're misunderstanding the criticisms of the class. Mathematically Rangers are going to be fine. It's just that in comparison to the glow ups that other classes got, seeing WotC double down on making it the Hunter's Mark class and do little else besides making the Tasha's optional features core is unbelievable lazy

[@duanebradway1627]

@all_thescience I understand completely. I'm simply saying I believe there is more depth there than people are giving it credit for, and I am looking forward to finding it. That's all. I do appreciate that you see that it is mathematically sound at least.

[@pzalterias5154]

I get the smite nerf but why make it a spell ? Barbarians have even less multiclass possibilities now :(

[@Psuedo-Nim]

Barbarians needed reason not to multiclass, not more reasons to multiclass.

[@Bored_Barbarian]

@@Psuedo-Nimeh what about fun theme. My dude was a paladin but got bitten by a vampire, now he’s a barbarian Dhampir multiclass.

[@Psuedo-Nim]

@@Bored_Barbarian well, Dhampir isn't a class. Why would being bitten make him a barbarian? and if so..has he just abandoned his oath? It came down to them making the classes worth staying in, not multiclassing out of--and protecting gimmicky abusive builds wasn't a priority. Paladins are half caster. Barbarians don't mix with casting.

[@DParkerNunya]

​@@Psuedo-NimI'm starting to think you might just personally hate this multiclass on a weird level.

[@Psuedo-Nim]

@@DParkerNunya its a concept that exists primarily to abuse rules..and the game designers agreed. Good riddance to it.

[@TheMindPlayerofficial]

Monty that is a very honest view on the nova smite from the paladin. I agree with it. Kelly I am very excited to see you play a new paladin! Thanks you two for all you’re doing! (Ps my players just took the cathedral in Drakkenheim).

[@SonicTheHedgedawg]

I'm surprised we talked about *True Strike* from a magic initiate dip, but not Shillelagh with a quarterstaff. Charisma max with topple and Greatsword damage one-handed weapon so you can still hold a shield is really good

[@BlueFrenzy]

So, basically, if you build this character with this spell, this subclass, this weapon, this mastery and do exactly this thing, you deal decent damage and you don't need to use the core feature of the class. It doesn't sound like good. It sounds like another case of having only one good choice and a bad design of a class. Even the infamous sorcadin had more variety over what spells you could use and what subclasses you can choose.

[@DungeonDudes]

We gave multiple build ideas in this video. All viable…

[@BlueFrenzy]

​@@DungeonDudes I don't consider those viable when you have a dual wielding paladin with 4 attacks at level 5 with hunter's mark and divine favour on top of each other. And we will see this over and over on the tables, and even beyond the paladin.

[@brandoncreek5709]

It's the most damaging option, but that doesn't make the other builds not viable.

[@talongreenlee7704]

Instead of taking a level of warlock for pact weapon, you should take magic initiate Druid to take shillelagh and healing word. You can make them scale off of your charisma modifier so you’d still be using charisma for attacks and damage rolls, but you’d also get bigger damage dice at higher levels and it doesn’t cost you a level of multiclass. It wouldn’t delay any of your juicy paladin abilities and it would give you access to healing word which is pretty good for a paladin to have. The only real downside is that it would limit you to only using a club or quarter staff so you’d be limited in your options for weapon masteries.

[@pzalterias5154]

I was glad dual wielding was buffed, but now I think I'll spend the next 10 years seeing all melee classes doing dual wielding... I fear it will becomes gimmicky

[@shoganmajere7913]

you are partly right .... you will see them using the dual - wielder & shield master feat with the Dueling fighting Style. since in 2024 swapping a weapon is part of your attack the way it works : - you attack with your regular attack and a light weapon - you swap your main hand weapon to another light weapon with the nick property and do your nick mastery attack - you swap your main hand weapon to yet another light weapon and attack with your dw feat attack - you swap your main hand weapon back to your original weapon and attack with your extra attack + you can use shield mastery on one of those attacks .... as well as all attacks get the +2 from your dueling fighting style as well as your ability modifier All of this is RAW, it probaly ( most likely ) is not RAI and i'm guessing it will be Sage Adviced but as printed this is RAW in the 2024 phb

[@ltcaphide]

yeah, it feels like they overcorrected

[@joelsasmad]

I still have some issues. Like you can't use a light and non light weapon, like a rapier and dagger or a long and short sword. You are also encouraged by Weapon Masteries to always pick two different weapons instead of getting twin blades.

[@elkcibdej]

Lance is an underrated option for PAM pallies now because it has lost the “disadvantage within 5 feet” issue, and retains the “1-handed when mounted” feature. You can now use it just like you would a glaive or halberd on foot, or mount up and have your full shielded AC while still dealing that 1d12 damage, plus the bonus action being freed up for smite spells.

[@rantdmc]

As Colby clearly showed in today's d4 deep dive, the damage per round output of a vengeance paladin is at least as good as 2014 and probably better. He suggested that, in general, burst damage has been reduced across the board in 5.24. That's probably a better balanced game. Obviously we will need to see the 2024 MM to really know how these changes affect combat generally

[@AndrewThoesen]

No, the inability to launch a holy nuke has utterly ruined the game /s

[@Miggy19779]

@@AndrewThoesen Thank god it was nerfed! Hurrah!

[@DungeonDudes]

Absolutely agree, and from the whispers we hear. The MM is also being better balanced so CR is closer to the actual power of the monsters. Here’s hoping!

[@rantdmc]

@@DungeonDudes nova damage is great and all, but how much fun did DMs have watching their BBEG spellcaster get nuked in 1 round by a 2014 smiting paladin who won initiative?

[@shoganmajere7913]

sorry but this assumption is just plain wrong ..... burst damage has been reduced for Paladin yes, but not for valor bards, bladesingers, moondruids, warlock in their case the nova damage has been multiplied to what a paladin would reach even if he crit smited 3x

[@misbac6105]

The paladin is my most played class. I really like the changes, because they address a lot of the problems I had with them. Also FINALLY PUNCH SMITING!!!

[@drashna]

Wait wait, does this mean that you can put divine smite into a ring of spell storing and give to another party member?

[@DungeonDudes]

I don’t see why not!

[@micheledelloglio5820]

MFW the rogue crits on a sneak attack and declares "I'm using Smite"

[@imprisonedagain9626]

Gotta say I disagree. Building a Dex based Paladin was already an option. The change of Divine Smite to a Spell, and not an inherent Core ability of the class diminishes it's identity. With the current setup there is not really a reason to play this class versus another melee based class. The Nova potential needed to be curbed, not removed. Making it also use your bonus action? Does the Rogue need to use a Bonus action to Trigger Sneak attack by default? Does the Sorcerer need to use a Bonus action to use Meta Magic? Battle master use a bonus action to use maneuvers (I know some are, or even other actions, but not all)? No, they took the Main core ability, and made it not really worth using, a point you made by saying all the cool new things you can do with all these spells slots we'll have now that smiting is mostly a waste. But HEY! Free Horse, Right guys!? No, this sucks. Good changes would have simply reworded Divine Smite to Once per round, Change the potency of the Auras, and IMO reduce the number of points for Lay on Hands. Paladins are OP in the 2014 version because they can kind of do it all, which DID need to change. But not like this, not like this.

[@jacobwylie6427]

Preachhhhh!!!!

[@Legend-gu6yp]

Glad you guys put all the changes in perspective i was bumped out with the smite changes. But overall i think the class is even better.

[@nicholashur3249]

Genuine question, but how does the new paladin stack up to new fighter/ other high dps martials? I mean this in the sense of the average damage per turn. I think the smite nerf was harsh but fair, and like others say, it opens up the door for new/improved smites. I do think bonus action bloat might be a problem since so many things use it within the class. Going back to the question, does this change simply add consistent high damage over other classes or can anyone just snag a level in paladin and get the spell divine favor (I'm sure there are many ways) and essentially do the same thing or better? I'm not ignoring other aspects of paladin, but I'm wondering if the dual wielding strat they talk about can just be replicated by any other martial. I still think Paladin sticks out in a good way with the mix of healing, tanking, and really a whole toolkit of features, so I'm not saying that it sucks in any way. I haven't read into the 2024 changes in depth, so it would be interesting to see what others think/have found.

[@veraducks]

Just as well, though a Rogue dip may not be as strong. But, yes, you've noticed that a lot of the theory op builds tend to fall into the same small groupings. The thing is: everyone can do wacky stuff now. Dips are just as powerful if not more so. Magic Initiate is wild.

[@2MeterLP]

Honestly, Im not too mad about the smite change. The old rules were balanced around having multiple encounters per day, which rarely happens at my table because its hard to cram in the narrative and because we prefer only 1-2 encounters per session. So the paladin could almost always nova and do as much damage as the rest of the party combined. These new rules are way better balanced for our playstyle.

[@JohnR31415]

Don’t have to have a long rest between sessions (just saying).

[@grandempress1947]

@@JohnR31415 I was about to say the same thing lol I alleviate this by just not allowing a rest unless they're in a very safe space for it. If they choose to do so anyways, I may just have to roll a d100 and dire consequences may come from it

[@leintati]

You guys lwt your players rest?

[@Mardshima89]

@@JohnR31415 Depends with table. Some table prefer narrative role playing more than the battle, and afaik such table tend to have less battle per long rest or session.

[@The_RealWilliam]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is with the Smites? It was part of the attack before, but now it is a bonus action. What does it matter you only get two attacks a round anyway? Help me out.

[@alexs-roberts5798]

That Dual Wielder clarification needs it's own Short. Would be really handy as something to share. Also nuts as it means for two feats even pure casters can get three attacks.

[@agrijalba92]

0:43 Monk Class... When you multiclass Monk+Paladin but end up not using any of the Monk abilities/traits

[@jeremyleyland1047]

Colby, they did a thing!!!

[@somekindadragon3414]

I thought about what you guys said about the Monk not stun locking the boss now, so now my hasted Paladin can’t drop 3 smites in a row, does make sense. That its a spell also makes sense, like Booming Blade or Green Fire Blade. I also really want to see the Paladin’s other spells. I do love playing a Paladin.

[@TheGaelicBrit]

I am GREATLY excited to try out the new paladin, in fact next week I will be starting an Elven Paladin of Hexes in a Drakkenheim game! Getting the new spell wording, the more consistent damage output and a MUCH needed breath of life into the Find Steed (Which itself has some very nice changes) Morrigan Paladin with a Fey Direwolf steed? Drakkenheim is going to be an absolute BLAST!

[@Bookworm159]

Thank you for this video! Having played a paladin all the way to level 20, I love these changes. I think paladin looks really fun, especially now that lay on hands is a bonus action, you have really good battlefield healing as well.

[@SamanthaVimes177]

I didn't expect this, but I feel like a lot of people are selling cleave weapon mastery short. I don't see mentioned nearly as often as Nick. But as someone that plays with the green flame blade I feel like I don't have to work that much extra hard to get two enemies to stand next to each other.

[@EpicRandomness555]

20:27 Ha! Haha! That’s great lol. Love that. Me either. Smite didn’t need to be that broken

[@commanderroddi7742]

I was playing a "Staff & board" Pali (quarterstaf + Polearm Master + shield + shield master). The changes make this compete for stuff I did with bonus action, like I'd throw all my attacks and get the polearm master attack and get 3 attacks with divine smite. Divine favor was a spell I used a lot, so I LOVE that it has no con! So, Yeah, I like that. I may still re-try the Redemption or Devotion Paladin. I'd have to re-thinnk whether the quarterstaff works other than a thematic (where My pali would often do non-letha atacks against humanoids because he had seen too much bloodshed. WHich added interesting dynamic to the party). I had picked up Magic initiate (cleric) to pick up spare the dying and another cantrip really, plus I would pick up a spell like a ritual spell like or sanctuary or somethign like shield of faith that I coudl use for free one a day). if my Pali who didn't liek to kill killed somebody with all my smites, I'd use spare teh dying on them and secure them later. again, controversial choice in the party, fit with the character background (part of a promise to his god) and it added an interesting dynamic to the party.

[@Klaital1]

The most buffed smite by far is Searing Smite, that is now actually really strong, especially for clerics (unless they changed it from the ua it's one of the few smites that are also on cleric spell list) because it upcasts REALLY well.

[@timothyhanna6304]

Looking forward to your take on the ranger

[@miketiker]

Not so fun fact, smite can now be counterspelled

[@Newtons-Fourth-Law]

And silence blocks smite

[@obi-wan-jacobi840]

People like to complain about the changes to Divine Smite, but I think it’s tough but fair. And also the rework means that those other Smite spells are now way better.

[@TigerW0lf]

It's better than what Rangers got😂

[@LouieWebb560]

Not to mention that Divine favour being non-concentration effectively gives you a guaranteed mini smite on every attack now, for a single spell slot.

[@thomasquesada7248]

Exactly paladins can’t accept being balanced Smites weren’t even really nerfed it’s just divine smite that was put on par with the other smite while many smite lost concentration Same thing with smites being a spell, if it works with spell slots why shouldn’t it be a spell ?

[@TigerW0lf]

@thomasquesada7248 Paladin is my main class, and I can see the potential with these changes. I'm OK with it. I don't even see it as a nerf, considering that ALL Smite spells got a buff

[@Kameraspie]

All fun and games till your smite gets counter spelled

[@b91318]

19:14 the other thing is all the (half)feats you want to take are also mostly locked into STR/DEX, so you can't focus on boosting CHA as your bladepact Warlock dip with synergy

[@rayindc2074]

19:00 "You can't completely dump Strength"...unless you do what Colby did in his Vengeance Paladin build today by going straight Dexterity Paladin + finesse weapons, which eliminates the 13 Strength requirement (since that's only if you multiclass) and avoids disadvantage since you're not using Heavy weapons.

[@qkeith5071]

@ Monty, hope to cyuh at Fan Expo in Toronto....but in all fairness I will miss the old smiting option. I bought the package of PHB, DMG and MM from the Guold House. Hope to get my PHB on September 3rd but either way the Dual Wielder Feat is so confusing now, our group is thinking about keeping the old 2014 rules....keep these up dates coming guys

[@RedlinePush]

I always hated feeling like any spell not spent on spite was a waste. I like these changes.

[@jager8432]

In my friends Grim Hollow game I was playing a paladin (oath of pestilence and it's awesome) and had suggested it would be better to have smite once per turn so I'm not a crazy power house but also helps with resources conservation due to the changed resting rules. It felt fair and didn't feel like it took away anything from the play style.

[@commanderroddi7742]

also, there is an argument to use stuff like thundering smite over divine smite now. Target fails check, may get pushed off a cliff? or at least be prone. so, If you get all you 3 attacks you can bonus Thundering smite, and get two attacks with target prone (advantage) or using branding smite, etc to the pali's attack if you are fighting invisible foe, blinding smite, etc. I like this overall. again, I was using divine favor a lot with my Pali but later on other spells took over Con, so having the ability to always use it... Wow!

[@stancal9249]

Stoked for this cuz my Conquest, defensive guardian/crowd control paladin already didn't really care about his smites. Throw in the new weapon masteries, getting warlock CHA combat at War1 for the Pact invocation, half feats making it easier to pump CHA up, and the Protection fighting style looking so good, I'm more stoked for thiis character than ever.

[@KnicKnac]

The luke warm feeling towards Glory Paladin was funny. I'm currently playing glory paladin and enjoying it. The channel divinity features are awesome.

[@Cloudroth]

Lay on hands as a bonus action is huge, particularly at higher levels. Already functioned as a second hp pool but you had to sacrifice making an attack.

[@EpicMuttonChops]

i've created dozens of characters the last few years (never playing, unfortunately) and one of them was a Tiefling Vengeance Paladin. she's been my most anticipated character to play, second only to my Dragonborn Monk

[@B.J.Camire]

This is the best "Monk Class Changes 2024" video I've seen since the last one 🤣

[@Wintermute909]

I'm loving the synergy of DD & d4 analysing the new Paladin at the same time! Surprisingly it makes both videos even more interesting......I think it'd be such a good idea to continue this!

[@Tom-gp2sm]

Based on what they said (including the stuff about the nick rule), there are multiple builds viable. I’m thinking of the following four. In all you use vow of enmity (for advantage), Divine favor (1d4) and Hunters mark (1d6), and focus on one target on all attacks that can. If I mention dmg it’s the average dmg per turn, I’m assuming every attack hits and that you make every con save. Defense + Polearm master (two-handed) Two attacks with: Halberd/glaive/lance (1d10) (lance is 1d12 in the glossary btw) One attack with: other end of weapon (1d4) That is 31,5 dmg + 3x attack modifier. In addition to that you get: - 1 AC - cleave/graze or topple. - a reaction attack when a creature enters your reach. At lvl 12 (with strength at +5) that is 72 dmg (+ potential reaction attack of 32,5 (no hunters mark)). Polearm master + defense (spear+shield) Two attacks with: spear (1d6) One attack with: other end of weapon (1d4) That is 27,5 dmg + 3x attack modifier. In addition to that you get: - 3 AC - Sap; at least one enemy has disadvantage against you. - a reaction attack when a creature enters your reach. - You could use dueling instead of defense for +6 dmg per turn at the cost of 1 AC. At lvl 12 (with strength at +5) that is 68 dmg (+ potential reaction attack of 30,5 (no hunters mark)). Defense + great weapon master Two attacks with: Greatsword/Maul (2d6) That is 26 dmg + 3x attack modifier + 2x proficiency bonus. In addition to that you get: - 1 AC - bonus action is either free for something else or does extra dmg - Graze or topple At lvl 12 (with strength at +5) that is 58 dmg (+ potential bonus attack of 25,5 (no hunters mark)). Two weapon fighting + dual wielder Four attacks with: Scimitar (nick) (1d6) That is 38 dmg + 4x attack modifier. In addition to that you get: - If you use a shortsword or hand axe for your second weapon: Vex. At lvl 12 (with strength at +5) that is 92 dmg. Some notes: - The average benefit from great weapon fighting is 1 dmg extra per turn when you use a Polearm and 2 dmg extra per turn for a greatsword/maul. I think the 1 AC from defense beats that easily. - Defense is a great option, it allows for different builds and always gives a benefit. - You might not be able to use the bonus action attack as often as you’d think. - I didn’t include hunters mark in the attacks that will most likely hit another target, and those might not have advantage from enmity either.

[@Tom-gp2sm]

They changed the glossary today. It’s now a 1d10 for lance. And also I can’t find the divine smite spell anymore…

[@mattfitzgerald7836]

I do like the quality of life improvement that is Lay on Hands becoming a bonus action (if I understand correctly, I do not currently have access to PHB24) - no longer do I have to forgo my attacks to emergency heal myself or allies in battle.

[@jodinsan]

"I feel like the reports of the Paladin's death by the Divine Smite changes are _greatly_ exaggerated because the class still sings." No, thats a Bard, Monty. Bards are the class that sings. 😅

[@davidlewis5312]

No they are just gaslighting Nerfadin is bad

[@kenbonto]

I understand why they talked about the dual wielding paladin more but I am very much the most excited about sword and board blade ward, protection, shield paladin. My allies will never pass and using smites or my shield to give them advantage the way I did with stunning strike monk feels amazing!! I wanna play this TODAY!!

[@WolfmanXD]

"I'm excited for the possibility of more diverse smites being added in future supplements." Delirium smite - bonus action, level 2, requires a delirium fragment (consumed by the spell) adds 4d8 necrotic damage to your attack and a target hit by this attack must make a constitution saving throw or suffer one level of contamination.

[@ButlerWho]

The 'Great Weapon Fighting' fighting style will synergise well with the extra d4 from Divine Favour, since for two-handed attacks it turns any 1 or 2 on a damage die into a 3.

[@nathans9764]

Treantmonk showed that for standard weapon damage, great weapon fighting is a very poor performer. You're right though, the value goes up with each additional damage die. If my math is right, a great sword with great weapon fighting, divine favor, and divine strikes at level 11 amounts to a 4.25 increase in damage per round. Honestly that's not terrible, about on par with dueling, but that's not until level 11, before that it's only 2.5 even with divine favor. I guess the strat would be to stack damage dice with it-a 2d6 weapon, divine favor, hunter's mark, divine strikes, and a smite. Maybe even a flame tongue weapon.

[@mattdahm4289]

Thanks dudes! ❤️

[@andrewmcmillan229]

Can’t wait to play a mounted paladin with a lance and shield. Because of the changes to the lance weapon and the changes of the wording on the feats, the lance can benefit from dueling fighting style, great weapon master, and polearm master at the same time while still holding a shield, as long as you are mounted.

[@Matthias219]

In truth before knowing all the other changes of the spells and other ways to deal damage u was devastated by the divine smite change. But now I’m more excited to get out these things

[@jessebutler9352]

I was kinda bummed about the new bonus action smite since that was basically my Vengeance Paladin’s bread and butter. After seeing your builds though I might actually have to read my spell list and see what else I can use those smite slots for.

[@matedervarics9827]

@DungeonDudes guys, would you be kind to take a look at grappling rules, and tell us: does the saving throw to avoid being grappled come after an attack role? It seems to me that either you roll an attack role and damage role, or make them roll a saving throw against grappling or shoving.

[@dbzdiehard7209]

Technically, if allowing old feats, coild take the fest that allows to gain warlock invocationns and grab pact ofnthe blade now

[@gabrielsoula1185]

My problem with the changes to divine smites is that you cannot longer make a smiting barbarian

[@Psuedo-Nim]

Gimmicky builds were not an important thing to preserve,

[@chaosheaven23]

God, I'm so happy they're reeling in Paladin Smite. Now they just need all the classes to be brought up to the new Paladin's level.

[@fizzyshellfish5439]

I played at a table with a woman who played a Paladin who didn't use Smite. It was a conceptual thing for her, and it worked out petty well. She probably could have dished out more damage overall, but it made the class feel very different, and required more creativity.

[@curtiscrowethephotopro2453]

I only smite when I crit, my primary focus is protecting and tanking. I probably do it wrong tho.

[@thackest2k]

I think all the melee classes should have that proc (like second wind and the 2014 divine smite) where it doesn’t cost you any action or bonus action to activate abilities but can limit the uses on certain ones (like rage you can use until there are no slots left, divine smite on the first attack on a new enemy for that turn) It’s kinda the melee classes are good till level 7 then the spell casters over take and leave em in the dust by hundreds of miles

[@dabluflcn]

I do really like that smite spells are now more useful. They’re flavorful and interesting. That said I think the divine smite ability should have just been dropped altogether or function like sorcery points to augment or buff a spell. That could have been real interesting. Now divine smite competes with spells and doesn’t hit particularly harder. I’d rather have more utility. I definitely agree with rebalancing the paladin, since the nova damage was crazy pants.

[@Smucklz]

If they wanted to limit divine smite, just put a line of text that says it can only be used once per turn. Don't mess with the action economy

[@jonathanroman1229]

Literally driving towards the wildfire and this just made my day

[@cryface2404]

Oh come on Kelly. Ya gotta give some love to the Glory Paladin lol. I play a goliath glory paladin and I gotta say, if you're creative you can do all kind of herculean shenanigans. Ive channel divinity+enhance abilitied myself to get the strength and cappy cap of a gargantuan creature and knocked down castle walls, caved in buildings to insta kill bodacs, and literally carried my whole downed party on my shoulders and ran out of a dungeon to save them. Not to mention that eventually with the right Charisma you can basically cast sheild on teammates. Glory is highly underrated. Also its perfect for paladins that aren't as righteous as tge tenets pretty much tell you to do cool stuff and you're good lol.

[@kurtkroh6637]

Thank you

[@joshuaholiday254]

Also need at least a 13 strength for some of the feats that a Warlock/Paladin using heavy weapons would want to use. I also like the change to divine smite as I have a friend that uses paladins a lot and the encounters typically end rather quickly and it was kind of frustrating.

[@tevisstier9044]

A stunning smite might be a nice addition

[@DungeonDudes]

There is one. Staggering smite is causes stun.

[@tevisstier9044]

@@DungeonDudes ah, I did not see that. cheers!

[@Iced_Tristan]

I was super worried about the Paladin during UA. But allowing a lot of the Channel Divinity options to work upon attack literally saved the class imo. I love where it ended up so much that my backup character for my Paladin is another Paladin! Also the shade on the Ranger in the Paladin video 💀☠️

[@jamesfoster9613]

Preach it Monty, Paladin smite was definitely a problem and I'm continually amazed by people, even those I consider friends and respect highly, not seeing it. They might have swung TOO far with the nerfbat (as someone who worked for almost a decade on a national LARP org rulesteam I see how it can happen), but a fix was definitely needed.

[@mikecarson7769]

Love the DungeonTuber cross-referencing today!!! :) :) :)

[@odininmeemninido1498]

I agree with most of your assessment of smite except for you stating you have "no sympathy" for those who don't like the change. Major nerf to it that is really bad: it is a spell now. Let it use a bonus action, let it be once a turn, but don't make it a spell. Reason being is that certain creatures are straight up immune to spells below a certain level, and it can now be counterspelled. I will repeat: "divine smite can now be counterspelled". I will assume most of this was ignored as it it probably viewed as hate, but if you did read this and actually take it to heart then thank you for your time. Keep up the good content, and please consider the opposition too.

[@Ageless-being157]

This is the one I’ve been waiting for!!

[@Hedron-Design]

4 attacks with advantage is sick, I wonder what a once per turn sneak attack thrown in would be like.

[@timfisher3893]

I love the amazing changes that seriously beefed up the classes, but they simultaneously remind me how the Ranger got hosed AGAIN… But its okay, our level 20 feature is the Hunters Mark is now a D10!!!! WOW! *cries in Ranger*

[@Ripoyla1]

I love our take on Paladin

[@elellestrange5357]

How about dual wielding a vex & sap weapon with the dual wielding feat. You impose advantage on your next attack with your first attack and then impose disadvantage on the enemies next attack.

[@nebulousnoah3913]

Don’t forget that, unless this changed, you need a str of 13 or 15 for certain heavier armors

[@DParkerNunya]

I'm not gonna lie, I've approached the 2024 rules very negatively. The changes to Paladin, Ranger, and Druid specifically have made me incredibly frustrated, but the way you two have laid things out and shown new possible builds has actually started to draw me in. The changes to the Paladin spells, the Dual Wielding Paladin (which was my first character in a long running game in 2014!!!), the buffs to Shield Master. Making Divine Smite a spell made me furious (and it still does, because it makes the Paladin/Barbarian less doable), but y'all have shown me ways to love this version of my favorite class in this new version.