Precision Rifle Load Development/ Part II: Bullet Choices & Initial Seating Depth

[@JoePep223]

I’m a certified Police Sniper and my passion is reloading.... This guy covered every aspect of reloading without leaving any stones unturned.... Best reloading videos on KZbin.... I want to hang with guy.....

[@willo7734]

As a beginner hand loader thank you very much for these videos. They have really helped me understand seating depth and sizing brass. Now I feel like I have the tools to make cartridges that will be very accurate. You have the best reloading channel on YT.

[@jasonweishaupt1828]

Glad to see that there are still some men who can do something besides watch TV.

[@rickm4295]

I love this reloading knowledge transfer. I also like watching your son grow up over this 7 or 8 year time machine. Great great channel

[@redleg1013]

The primer pocket tool you showed is from Possom Hollow, I have one myself. I ordered it direct from them but IIRC MidwayUSA also sells them.

[@Delta2Tactical]

Thanks brother I knew someone would know!

[@Plainsimple67]

RELOADING IS ANOTHER JOY IN ITSELF.

[@ironDsteele]

So in a nutshell, you want two bullet depth seating numbers. One for the new Lapua brass or whatever you have that's new, and another one for the once fired stuff that's now reformed; so you will make two modified cases for your measuring tool?

[@jasonp5991]

This really helps me I’m new to reloading and this helps explain this process greatly. Looking forward to seeing other videos

[@chadrides914]

Enjoyed this alot. Nice work with the lathe and custom cut oal case.

[@bambibromley8516]

copper creek cartridge co. makes these from your fired brass

[@Scablands_Scavenger]

Great timing ! working up a new load for a new rifle that I am trying to take a little more serious this go around. I like your style man, no BS but you explain why you do what you do and what led you to that decision. Will be looking forward to more in this series !

[@redrock425]

Really, really useful. First time I've seen the Hornady L-N-L demonstrated. I have one but not used it yet, makes sense now. You can't go too basic in the explanations for those new to rifle reloading.

[@zacmiller6741]

great series can't wait for the next one. wish it was right NOW.... no thanks for the great info

[@terrycastle689]

Good info on loading for accuracy and precision, and given with laguage of precision and accuracy as well.

[@MrZhaokuo1225]

pure gold! simply pure gold for reloading beginner!! do you have a list of must-have recommended tools for precision reloading?

[@BRTreedogs]

Sam you have the knowledge. Mind boggling. I just hope I can come up with a load for my new hunting rifle .

[@CavemanPNW]

Great information, thank you for putting out real content! Very applicable for learning more about precision!

[@Goinghot]

Sam, the aspect of a fired case vs the Hornady case when coming up with a dimension from head to ogive and seating depth dawned on me when I saw this video. So I immediately went to check my Hornady supplied Case with my fired cases. I lucked out because my fired case is only 1.5 thou longer. I've got a new project rifle in a different caliber so I've ordered another case from Hornady for that cal, and will be paying attention to this. If I had a lathe i'd make my own also. But if there's 5+ thou between them i should be able to take the difference between the two and use it when I figure my head to ogive measurement. I always enjoy your videos!

[@shutthegate8232]

Great vid again.Always something to learn, or see a different way of doing things. Thanks mate.

[@Ccw__777]

Would making a modified case for an AR style rifle be the same process? I have built a .224 Valkyrie and as soon as I can actually get to the range and get some spent brass I want to reload it and do it the right way from the get go. Love your videos. You are truly a man full of info if someone is willing to listen. Keep up the good work and look forward to your next video

[@gregorystramat9557]

Sam: love your videos. One thing you need to mention is when you use a bullet comparator, rather than an ogive comparator, the CTOG will be different for each bullet type or manufacturer. I originally thought that taking one measurement would be good for all bullets brands. My friend Ken pointed out that this was not true. So I went back to verify his claim. , I made measurements for Berger 130s, 140s, 130 Sierra MKs, 140 Sierra TMKs, and the Hornady ELD 130s on my new 6.5x47 Lapua. All group measurements (5x) for each bullet were within 0.001". The Bergers had the shortest CTOG, followed by the Hornadys, and then the Sierras. So I take the max CTOG for each bullet type and subtract from that the number how far of to be from the lands. I did the same thing for my brother's 6.5 Creedmoor, and they trended the same way. RCBS makes an ogive comparator; unfortunately it is not available in 6.5 Lapua or 6.5 Creedmoor....

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Gregory Stramat Thanks for bringing this up. I did a follow-up in the next video pointing that out. I have noticed, though, that some inserts will give consistent CBTO measurements across several brands/weights of bullets. I suppose if the diameter of the insert matches the bore/lands at the point of bullet contact, it should match perfectly on all bullets. If not, the shape of the ogive determines the variation. Anyway, it’s easier to just use the bullet you want to shoot when measuring. Thanks again for the comment.

[@retirednobaddays456]

Good process and procedure, thanks for sharing. According to a Hornady tech that I talked with last year, the location of their bullet ogive can vary a few thousands from the start of the batch to the end when the tooling has to be replaced. So if you get a new batch of bullets (the batch number is on the box) will need to use one of the new bullets to remeasure your overall length to the new ogive. If you plan on measuring for throat erosion you may want to keep a few of the bullets you originally used. Remember, your measurements are all relative based on the tooling.

[@craigwilley4605]

Great info. Ignorance is bliss! Reloading is an OCD sport. When I first started, I could not get anything exact. One of my first realizations is how accurate a caliper is. I was getting dirt/lube/contaminants on the calipers and/or brass, and that alone was throwing the measurements off by 5 to 20/1000. Took me a week to realize that. I thought my calipers were not accurate and bought a second set; 2nd one did the same thing. Now they both work because I make sure I wipe everything off before I measure. Nest step was that all bullets are not exactly the same. A bullet advertised as 0.785 will be .775 to .795, and measuring to the tip of the bullet doesn't work; you need a bullet comparator to measure the ogive.

[@lteberle]

Awesome series. Looking forward too more. Just need to find somebody with a lathe to drill and tap my fired case. I've been using the hornaday case.

[@gregorystramat9557]

I found a local machinist to do the job. Bought the tap on Amazon. He charged me $20. Hornady will do it for you also with a fired case....

[@SeriousSchitt]

Definitely gave you the thumbs up, you seem very knowledgeable and you're certainly getting the desired results. Thanks for letting me know the secret thread of Hornady's depth gauge, I haven't as yet bought my own drill bit or tap, but eventually I will, for the exact reasons you've described. My calipers are also Mitutoyo, the same as yours, and I find them excellent as well, the only difference is, I went for the 8" as opposed to 6, as I figured that by the time you're using comparators etc, with the 8" you've still got a bit of caliper 'tail' left for your fingers to grip a hold of. Finally, Sinclair 'apparently' machine their stainless steel comparator inserts slightly larger to better replicate the throat of the average chamber, which sounds excellent in theory, however, I find them to be a bit too large and they have the tendency to slip over the ogive and are hard to position 'exactly' on each projectile, and so give inconsistent readings, therefore, I prefer the Hornady inserts as, although they are aluminum as opposed to stainless steel, they are slightly smaller and are more liable to rest on the same datum line of each bullet. Thanks for your vid.

[@Johnsormani]

You can also measure datum to head from the hornady modified case and compare that with a fired case of your own, fl sized ,deprimed and shoulder set back by 0.002. Measure the length difference and compensate for that difference . It will get you as lose as possible, without having to modify your own fired case to use with the hornady tool

[@sjohnson1776]

Outstanding info and presentation! Thank you!

[@GianniG55]

Hi Sam great video lots of helpful tips, looking forward to the follow up videos of your load development thanks for the great content cheers Gianni.

[@mikebigley9011]

Awesome video. I look forward to more!

[@neelsgroenewald11]

Love your videos. Found 2 big faults I have made by reloading. Sometimes I could not bolt the bullet... Thanks

[@waltlawhead4260]

I have purchased some of the Starling brass for the 6.5 Creedmoor. It is nice brass, but the case capacity is slightly less due to thicker case walls. The Starling cases averaged thirteen grains heavier than Hornady cases. I reduced my charges to achieve the same velocities by about three grains.

[@wldott]

Alpha's SRP .260 brass is hands down the best .260 brass on the market, I have been running it in my .260AI for a while now.

[@alberttenbusch6680]

Very helpful video. Well done! Thank you.

[@sf2189]

I use a similar procedure - I take a fired case and start sizing till it just fits the chamber and then add a piece of scotch tape to make sure that little addition doesnt let me close bolt. This gives me a really good indication of chamber size. I then take a case and size it at .003 from that (better safe than sorry) and then make a modified case (although tapping seems so much easier on a lathe than drill press and finishing by hand). I take the measurement two ways - with the OAL gauge and then by creating a dummy round with .0005 neck tension (enough for it to not fall off). I then close the bolt. Both these measurements are pretty close - for me 2.252 and 2.2535 (I think the smaller one which is the case is the lands and the OAL gauge is my JAM). Here is a question though - on my MPA 6.5 SL - I am at .08 of the lands in order to fit the mag. What do PRS shooters do? It is a Berger long range target so its super long. Is it just too long a bullet for my application? Waiting to get the 140 & 147 ELD-Ms on back order - these shoot great in my rifle as factory ammo. ES is just not great between boxes.

[@savagereloader6699]

I think it's important to mention the fired vs unfired generic case having different measurements refers only to Hornady LNL seating depth gauge style tool and not to the bolt close with out of round case neck method. That is a good thing to know then and I will have to verify my data now to make sure I'm loading to actual jump I think I am. I am currently just in the midst of doing a seating depth test and primer test as I finish my load development. Really haven't had to do a jump test with any bullet except for the Nosler RDF as the Hornady ELDs has always given me 1/4 MOA groups with a standard .025 jump. I definitely see an advantage to making your own reference casing for the seating depth gauge that has been fire formed and perhaps sized to your normal process but neck opened up a little to get good accurate measurements to your lands. My older bolt close method was very time consuming and a real pain to verify you were accurate.

[@brianstuart4203]

Nice job on the case guage! I’ll have to try it now!

[@kylecompagnon3917]

I really appreciate your videos man. Thanks for doing them

[@vincentnunez6569]

Lot numbers are also important. I've had two different lot numbers from Berger one lot# had a lot of spread in the groups and a different lot tightened the group up alot.

[@ZachariahYoung]

Would it be possible to post pictures of your load development book during this process? I'm curious about what format your using and what all your recording.

[@JGNBS]

Sam, thanks so much for the videos. Really, really good information.

[@billcarlson852]

If you were loading first time fired brass; what would be the seating depth?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

With what I’m working with now, I’d seat .020”-.030” off the lands.

[@TakeDeadAim]

Get a 1/4" "square" router bit, chuck it up in a drill and you can zip all your primer pockets flat again. It also cuts military crimps with ease...cost about $7. Also, You can use a cleaning rod, a bullet and a marker to get COAL(for that particular bullet) very accurately with no special tools or gizmo's. Many match shooters(including John Whidden the NRA long range champ) use "Soft seating" in their match rifles with great results. "Soft seating" is simply using light neck tension, seating the bullet "long" and allowing the lands to seat it when the bolt is cammed closed.

[@larrythompson5617]

What would a person use a "Body Die" for other than what was used in this video? I find it hard to buy one just to make 1 fire formed piece of brass.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

If you’re using a FL bushing die, you can take the mandrel and bushing out.

[@larrythompson5617]

I suspected as much. Thanks for confirming.

[@yootoober49]

Thanks for the vids and info. Keeping our culture alive

[@wakanene1]

Really enjoy your channel so informative. I've got some peterson brass and it certainly looks great I'm in the process of prepping it.

[@tobycory830]

Good video , how did you find them nosler RDF 130’s? I’m about to try them in my tikka t3x tac a1

[@rob1135]

Here here for Peterson and Starline brass. I’ve had great results with both.

[@darrellwest5999]

If I remember right, the size other than a letter size is a 19/64 drill bit. I make my own modified cases as well.

[@yrocnaeb]

When you say you bumped the shoulder .002. Does the full length die do that?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Yes

[@jeffreyheisinger6559]

first of all i love this channel. thank you. wouldn't it make sense to not size/bump the case for the purpose of measuring the the chamber oal. if the is case bumped wouldn't this reduce the size of the measurement by the amount bumped. The case used for measuring chamber oal is pressed fully into the chamber against the shoulder while measuring but a loaded cartridge under normal operation would be flush against the bolt face.

[@sancharino4672]

When you fire. The firing pin and or ejector push the shoulder up against the front of the chamber. So if you dont use brass exactly as you load it. Your measurements to the lands will be off

[@MrZhaokuo1225]

someone suggests the bullet should be as close to the land as possible, say 5 thousandth away. What do you think and why do you choose to begin at 15 thousandth? Thanks Sam

[@mehrdadazarpay4755]

Hi Sam. Would I be too far off I chambered a brass fired in my own gun that was trimmed to size and had a bullet seated too high which when it hits lands it will get pushed back into the case and stop at the max length. Then I can back off from there.

[@markrichardson4760]

I mighta missed it but we do need to measure COAL to lands with each bullet correct? ogive matters I think

[@Tanglerwr]

Great video - I should say ANOTHER great video, but I'm a little puzzled that you used a 147 gr bullet to determine seating depth for a 130 gr bullet you intend to start with. Why not measure using the 130 gr bullet?

[@TexasTrained]

Why are Berger bullets preferred over say Hornady or Sierra Match King? I ran into that problem with 2 different comparators.Inchecking a load and used two different ones and wrote down each separate compactor reading in two columns..A lot of difference. Great Video.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

I don’t think they are. I’ve had great results with lots of different bullets.

[@TexasTrained]

@@PanhandlePrecision I asked 11 guys at a local match and all but 2 were using Berger. The 3rd one using Hornady was me I shot just fine though.All I've used is Hornady.Mainly because it's what available where I live.I was glad to hear you say shoot what fits your barrel and dont worry about it. You have a Great Channel. It really helps me since I'm fairly new to reloading.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

@@TexasTrained It always amazes me how many shooters will buy bullets based on what others are shooting, then keep trying to get them to shoot, even when they obviously won’t in their barrel. Always keep your options open!👍🏻

[@timothyberlinski2299]

So when you fire a round in order to get a round for the modified one. Do you bump size it after or you just shoot and leave it? I would think if you didnt size it your bump would be 0 and not the .002 you want.

[@patruddiman4228]

I have browning x-bolt long range chambered in 300 win mag. I purchased originally purchased box of Nosler brass because that is the only thing available locally without ordering. It worked well but was a little pricey compared to it's manufacturer Norma (at least that is what I've read on the internet). I purchased RWS brass and I only purchased 80 because they only come in 20 round boxes. Which was almost $170. Is there a better option that is a little cheaper so I can buy 300 rounds just like you have done?

[@Nobo35]

Hey Sam. What’s your thoughts on finding your seating depth with a new cartridge and then using the measured length to shoulder from new to fired brass and subtracting the case growth from the max seating depth?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

That works!

[@wreadd]

So I haven’t started reloading yet but was curious… comparing new brass vs already fired- when you re-use brass you will bump the shoulder back, how does this effect using new brass vs resized brass when measuring seating depth for bullet sitting off the lands? My thoughts are this- new brass will be it’s smallest size, so when the round is chambered it’s neck will sit deeper since it’s smaller, therefore, the seating depth will need to be greater since it’s sitting deeper into the chamber. Once fired you bump the shoulders back but it won’t be the same size as factory, therefore being larger it means it will sit back further, meaning seating depth will need to be not as deep as it’s already closer to the lands… am I thinking that through correctly? Any clarification would be much appreciated!

[@623hgh]

Can you use a once fired piece of brass from factory ammo to make the dummy cartridge?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Hugh Hill Yes.

[@davidpierce8613]

How would one measure the OACL in the chamber of a semi auto rifle, such as a M1A?

[@Sean-oc6kf]

Still looking for thoughts on the ogive measurement. If you are bumping the brass shoulder back from it's fireformed condition. Technically the loaded ammo will not contact the shoulder when locked in the chamber with the bolt. It's only a 0.001-0.002" difference, but it still stands that your measurement from pushing a bumped case all the way into the shoulder is not the same as where the brass will sit with the round held by the bolt extractor.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

The case will contact the shoulder of the chamber the same, whether it's a new piece of brass, fired, or sized. The ejector will hold it there, and the firing pin will make sure it stays there when you light it off. The relationship between the shoulder and lands doesn't change until the throat burns forward. If we could measure our seating depth from the shoulder datum to the ogive of the bullet, it wouldn't matter what the length of the case is from the case head to the ogive.

[@zoidelux]

Panhandle Precision thank you for explaining this! Your explanation on seating depth with fired or new case differences and the fact the case is always against the shoulder really opened my eyes. I have a question though, would this theory change at all with belted cases? Or what if I had a mechanical ejector on my bolt instead of spring plunger?

[@raining1975]

I still don't understand. A shorter case is still going to be held by the bolt face so there would be a gap between a short case shoulder and the chamber but when you use the hornady tool you would be pushing the short cased shoulder into the chamber and that would result in an incorrect value, wouldn't it?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

It's not "held" by the bolt face. In this rifle, it's pushed and held into place by the spring-loaded ejector. The only thing that allows the extractor to snap over the rim of the case is contact between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder. Don't overthink it; we're talking about the thickness of two post-it notes between new and fired.

[@raining1975]

Panhandle Precision That makes sense. How incorrect do you think my measurements would be with a Hornady pretapped case vs my fired cases, I don't have the tools to tap my own cases.

[@douganderson9297]

Hey Sam, that is a large and small primer pocket uniform tool made by Possum Hollow Products Inc. I have one on my load bench also. I am not sure of where I purchased it from since I’ve had it for many years. Hopefully this helps you and maybe if it is still being produced you can put a link with this video.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Doug Anderson That’s the one. Thanks!

[@colinlowe31]

Can you build a modified case gauge before you shoulder bump? I haven't ran it through the body die, but have a buddy who already has his lathe set up for drilling and tapping.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Colin Lowe I haven’t tried, but I don’t see why not.

[@MrNiceKnife]

I'm just getting into reloading so forgive my ignorance but couldn't you measure a fired case vs the hornady modified case and add or subtract the difference?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Mr NiceKnife You would get really close by doing that. Once you measure the max CBTO for a baseline number, it becomes a relative number to adjust seating depth anyway, so as long as you use the same tools and techniques, it doesn’t matter.

[@anthonybostock4854]

Mr NiceKnife you beat me to it with this question, I was thinking the same. We would be using a once fired case and using the Hornady headspace comparator bit to measure the case length from base of cartridge to the neck datum line wouldn't we? We wouldn't be using the smaller ogive type comparator like the one Sam is showing in this video.

[@2whl4re]

Not everyone has a lathe at their disposal to make a custom modified case. Measuring a fired/sized & shoulder bumped case, comparing it to the Hornady modified case with a headspace gauge, and adding/subtracting the difference is the best most of us can do.

[@skinnypitt9694]

I use Winchester 7-08 brass necked down to 260 and one run through my die sets it up perfect and even after several loadings I have no issues.

[@doncurtis1829]

I know. Not a best practice, but can I use a wood lathe to drill and tap a 6.5 case for the Hornady tool ?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Best practice is a practice that works. The case doesn’t care what kind of lathe is spinning it. Slow spin and straight drilling. The tap can be done by hand.

[@oldwisdom181]

Love your videos I’ve learned so much from you, but you need to know I bought that hornady OL gauge with the threaded cases for 6 different rifles I shoot not one of my magazines would allow me to get even close to the lands on my sitting depth😂 but I learned a lot, but seemed to be a waste of time, I live in a small town hard to come by parts, my gun smith said you need a custom gun in order to get the magazine to be bigger than the oal I’m looking for. Savage long range hunter 338 Rem sendero 300 ultra Rem tactical 308 Rugar 22-250 varmater Bagara 6.5 As you can see all nice guns for a country boy but the jump of the bullet I tried to lessen like you discussed or ogive close to The rifling, the mags are way to short?

[@r0nb0h0ju]

I have similar problem with my rem700 308win. Mag length is like 2.80in but bullet jam measured 2.92in. I come to some possible choices; load to mag length, it should still shoot well. Dont use the mag and load to fit the chamber. Have the barrel rechambered. Change from short action to long action receiver.

[@redrock425]

@@r0nb0h0ju pretty much what I have gleaned from my research. A factory rifle is a compromise, but a good place to start until you know what you really need/want.

[@makimoko]

I am starting to reload 308 and have a dilemma: I only have about 20 Federal brass that were shot in my new barrel. I bought 100 new Lapua brass. If I use a fire-formed Federal brass to figure out my barrel's distance to the lands, will this reference still be valid when using my Lapua brass down the road? Some people recommended to do the coarse load development with fired brass rather than using an markedly different load during a brass life cycle. Should I just do SAAMI specs until I have fired Lapua brass and then figure out the headspace component? Thanks for your insight!

[@danielselthon5674]

How to know on seating depth witch way to go

[@raker1980]

I don’t get it. Wouldn’t the case head to ogive be the same no matter if the brass is fired or not?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

The difference will be exactly the amount that the case stretches between the shoulder and head.

[@raker1980]

@@PanhandlePrecision man, I feel so dumb because I can’t picture this, but I know the problem is me. Need to think about it more.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

@@raker1980 It’s easy to picture it if you draw it out. The shoulder and point of the ogive measurement stay constant. The case head moves away from shoulder. Because you’re measuring from the case head to ogive, you’re actually pulling the bullet further from the lands as the case stretches, if you don’t account for it. In reality, it’s probably not critical for most applications.

[@jonsheldon8874]

@@PanhandlePrecision Oh geez, I get you know. I was picturing the shoulder moving only. I see now that if the whole length of the case is changing, that the length to ogive will change. Thanks!

[@vincef5832]

The map behind Sam looks like the Lake Pend Oreille and Priest Lake section in Idaho's panhandle. I recognized it cause I would like to buy property up there and have been looking at maps of the immediate area.I could be wrong. Besides, I'm not sure if Snake River Plain would be a better area. Decisions-Decisions-lol

[@ProjectArms4719]

Do you crimp your bottle neck cases after seating?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

No crimp on rifle rounds.

[@cogunlover5550]

Great video. I NEED to send out a fire piece of 6.5 brass to Hornady to have them tap it for me. If I wanted to do it myself and I do NOT have a lathe what would I need? Or what would be the best way to do that?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

You just need to drill the hole straight. It can be tapped by hand.

[@williamelder3715]

This is off the subject but do you ever use a Larry Willis die for magnum cases .

[@Dr.KennethNoisewater]

So. I loaded up some 6.5 CM that is .020 off the Lands on my SOLUS Action/Proof Research Barrel. It’s no where close to fitting in my magazine. It’s way too long COAL. It’s in a SOLUS chassis that takes AIS/AIAW mags. It’s fine with ELD Match and SMK bullets but the Bergers are too long. Is there any way around this? I currently have Magpul mags. Pretty bummed about this. I hand fed the Bergers and they shoot the best by far. I’m going to try the max mag length and work backwards and try to find a node . Hopefully I can find similar results. The Bergers loaded at .020 off worked by far the best.

[@762longrange]

Curious what ever did you end up working out with that setup? I have a Solus and proof also I just put together and starting some preliminary load dev, I wonder if I will run into that issue. On the 50 or so handloads I’ve shot through it so far they have been at factory COAL. Today I was going to find the lands and load up for 20thou off and etc

[@kmitchl1]

I am assuming that when you measure the case to ogive dimension this should be done with the actual bullets you will load. Am I correct thinking the ogive of different bullets and different manufacturers and even different lots of the same bullets are slightly different. Is this significant in developing precision loads?

[@ddreuss]

Ever thought at looking into Hammer??

[@MrT13]

I had to stop this at 6:06 THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! I’ve been saying it for as long as I can remember. There is no reason to venture heavier if you can’t push it. And especially! If you gotta go down inches in twist. Yes you can buy a 1:7 barrel for your cm and shoot amazing awesome 150 whatever’s in it. But slow as hell and drifting like crazy compared to a 130-140. Heavier is NOT always better. Get out a ballistic calc and see for yourself. Twist is a HUGE factor. And not a good one actually.

[@ctoth18]

Nice video !!

[@alexjovanovski658]

Hi Sam, lve realised that you mentioned ES but not SD at all, interested to know why.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

I guess the only reason is because I don't need to know it. ES tells me everything I need to know about the load.

[@BobbyOfEarth]

The 130 gr. is a good call, they're both very similar out to 1200 yds, with a slight advantage to the 140 gr. at ranges beyond ..or when the wind pushes the needle to 25 mph.

[@kevinlowe7552]

Hi Sam. I have some new factory Hornaday brass for my 6.5 SAUM and I have some once fired brass that I’ve shot through my chamber. I measured them and the once fired brass shoulders is only about 1.5 or 2000s longer than the new brass. They both feel about the same when I close the bolt without the firing pin. There is a little resistance. Should I bump the shoulders in thousand increments until the bolt closes really easily?

[@ktmkaratechips]

I have a question for you. How many powders would you test to make a bullet work for you? My first stab at reloading, I loaded up some Speer gold dot rifle in my 308 and an getting good vertical spread with Varget but my horizonontal on 90% of the groups is > 1 moa. Any advise on telling if it’s the powder or the bullet I need to swap? Thanks for your time

[@PanhandlePrecision]

I don't know what's causing your spread, but I'm pretty set on the powders I use. I might try two different powders, but I usually just try a different bullet if I can't get one to shoot with the powder I want to use. If you want to run Varget, I would switch bullets if you don't get the results you need.

[@ktmkaratechips]

Thanks for the advise.

[@billboeckstiegel2109]

Sam, I am loading 6.5 Creedmoor for a Savage Stealth Evolution rifle. I have the Hornady overall length gauge but just their modified case, no access to metal lathe to modify a fired case. How do I know how to get the true CBTO length using this modified case instead of my once fired brass?

[@85ZERO17]

HAVE YOU HAD ANY ISSUE WITH THE JAWS OF THE LATHE POSSIBLY DEFORMING THE CASE WALLS.....EVEN A SLIGHT BULGING..?

[@adampennington8954]

Hornady says to seat the bullet fairly hard when using the comparator. Most guys say to stop when it just barely touches the lands. The results are VERY different.

[@ronc4146]

I have found the same to be true. When using the Hornady comparator on my AR Krieger "223 Match" marked barrel, I was stopping at the first "gentle" hump (sign of resistance) and finding the results were around .06" or so shorter than if I pushed through the first hump to the more solid resistance just behind it. At first my measurements were very inconsistent and I was confused. Later I discovered a chart at AR15barrels that showed that the reamer used to cut 223 Match barrels had .068" of Freebore between the end of the case mouth and the beginning of the lands (vs .025" of standard 223 chambers, .050-.056" for 5.56 NATO chambers). I used Cerrosafe to cast my chamber, and discovered that was exactly what I had. It was the bullet entering the tight freebore area that I was sensing through the comparator at first, but pushing through resulted in finally touching the lands, and my measurements suddenly became more consistent, usually within 3-4 thousandths or so. Another clue that doing this was the correct way to go about it was that there were no significant marks, scratches, dings, etc on the ogive of the bullet after being pushed all the way through, and the bullets (68gr Hornady HPBT or 69gr SMK's) weren't even being pushed in hard enough to get them stuck in the lands, suggesting I was on to something. On my Rem 700 5R, the comparator showed I have a .160" jump to overcome between max spec COAL and the lands, measured using a 168gr SMK. Apparently this is common with Remington rifles. Fortunately, 168 SMK's are pretty jump-tolerant. The issue with overly long jumps is one of the reasons people eventually go with a custom action and build around it, to avoid that problem (among many other issues with Remington factory rifles). At the very least one might want to have their barrel set back to "fix" the issue.

[@danfransen1328]

I just loaded some New Lapua brass and I measured CBTO using the Hornady modified case. I seated -0.010 off the lands based on the modified case. After watching your video I decided to measure the difference of the base to shoulder of the two cases and I discovered the modified case to be 0.008" longer. So now it looks like I may have only seated 0.002" off the lands. With any slop in my measuring and seating I could be closer or even touching the lands. Since I have not chambered or fired any of these loads yet I'm thinking I should seat them another 0.005" to 0.008" just to be safe. Any response would be helpful. Thanks for the video tutorials Sam!

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Dan Fransen It might not be a bad idea, especially if you’re up close to a max charge. I prefer staying well off the lands if I don’t have any load data yet.

[@marknice5480]

Sam, so right around the 21:00 mark you talk about a wrench in the gears. But if you keep your OAL the same, then it's all good right? I mean, your seating depth may vary from mfg to mfg of brass but your end result should remain the same right? I'm just trying to see if I'm following you. Pardon my ignorance, just trying to learn. Thanks for taking the time to make and post your videos !

[@larryrankine8088]

Great segment Sam! For those of us who don't have a shop grade lathe are there any viable tool options to make our own custom cut OAL cases? I'm thinking you can't get the precision required with hand drilling/tapping a case and spending big bucks on a lathe isn't in the cards for me. Thanks and keep up the great work!

[@PanhandlePrecision]

It doesn't hurt to try! Maybe a drill press or even hand drilling. It'll work as long as the case seats on the OAL gauge straight enough to be sure the caliper's blade is measuring off the case head. I sure wouldn't buy a lathe just to do this kind of work! Hornady will tap your case for a fee. Scroll to the bottom of this page: www.hornady.com/reloading/precision-measuring/precision-tools-and-gauges/oal-gauges-modified-cases#!/

[@dreadsdomain]

@@PanhandlePrecision Thanks for this info. I was already tripping out since I don't have a lathe. You're ahead of the game sir!

[@CoryRobare]

Thanks for all the informative material. ive watched countless videos from a long list of individuals but i find your methods and procedures to be the best which fits my goals. I am very new to reloading for my Begara B14 hmr 6.5 creed. as new as first load coming proceeding this comment/ question. im going for my ogive measurement but im using the hornady 6.5 modified case with the pusher stick, the issue is as you presented is the modified case is larger than my new Lapua brass. the hornady case is 1.916 and the lapua is 1.909 should i compensate in my seating depth for the difference in case lenth or should i just start with the ogive i get with the hornady case? subtracting the .02?

[@ZachariahYoung]

When you start your load development are you using once fired brass? Also do keep track of how many times your brass has been reloaded? Do you cycle through the 300 pieces of brass first or do cycle through a small batch just for reloading?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

I start with the very first shot out of the rifle. I don't expect loads tried with new brass to shoot as well as with fired brass, but the difference won't be that much in my experience. On occasion, I'll see a really good group or set of groups with new brass. Yes, I keep track of firings, and try to cycle the whole batch through at the same time. I might do some refining of the load with once-fired brass before cycling through all of the new brass, but the goal is to get all of the new brass fired as quickly as possible.

[@ZachariahYoung]

Thanks for the reply. Another follow up question. How are you keeping track of the batches? Are you just keeping them in zip lock bags or the black bins?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Zachariah Young I keep fired brass in used Costco cashew tubs, with a sticky note label.

[@valitchka1]

I've seen your video and another stating you body size and bump the shoulder back 2 thousands. I was going to fire form my brass to my new barrel and just neck size only, but am curious why you body size and bump the shoulder back? I found on Sinclair article that the author there said he used a Full length sizing die, and after the initial full length size he used the FL die to just lightly body size, and adjusts it to just bump a fired case (from his bolt gun) back 2 thousands, rather than neck sizing. I'm just shooting a new Howa 1500 in 22-250, and have 100 fresh Nosler brass, and 100 once shot brass which I just full length sized, ready to shoot 1st shot... as soon as weather permits! What is best sizing recommendation?

[@PanhandlePrecision]

This is my take on it: panhandleprecision.com/full-length-sizing-reliable-precision/

[@FirearmTutorials]

This is good stuff! Thanks for sharing.

[@williamwinchell6335]

Getting ready to load 6.5 cm, could I buy a already modified case and work with that for the seating task

[@PanhandlePrecision]

William Winchell Yes.

[@justaregularguy3827]

so once i find the max my friend said to back off on it 0.020 and try 5 or ten rounds and keep backing of by that much until you get it right now thats the hundredths position you said thousandths how much exactly should i seat the bullet off of the max cbto how much basically should i load the rounds length wise increments wise before i stop like if the max is 2.128 how much do you think i should back it off before i know ?

[@HiTechRob]

Great videos. What are your thoughts on Hornady brass? I am starting to work with Hornady because I am working up loads for a new 6.5 PRC rifle. I usually use Lapua or Nosler (for 7mm Rem Mag) and have been very happy with it, but my brass choice seems to be limited with 6.5 PRC for the time being. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[@PanhandlePrecision]

I used it long ago in a 300 Wthby. It shot good, and lasted the life of the barrel ( nine cycles), with minimal sizing and shoulder bump.

[@randysachau9375]

Sam, I don't understand the benefit of using once fired brass if you run the case through a body die before you use it. Does that not defeat the purpose of firing it in the gun in the first place? I need a bit of help. thanks

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Randy Sachau It’s makes the modified case an exact representation of what you’ll be shooting. It will chamber easily, and give you the most accurate measurement possible while using this method.

[@mikeseigel6566]

Thanks for the explanation, I’ve been trying to wrap my head around it for ten minutes now as to why you bumped the shoulder back two thousands...crystal clear now.

[@asadbacha]

Hi Fellow, How you can measure seating of rifle if you just readjusting company loaded ammo? Brand new brass one kind gun powder and same tips. As we don’t have that luxury as you people has that in USA. Regards

[@tomcooke6670]

Sam I am confused. I would have Thought that you would need to use a 130 gr bullet to do your measurement. Isn't your cbot dependent on bullet size. Thanks

[@981kirk]

Sam, a quick question... My smith that built my 260 Rem asked if I wanted to shoot Lapua or any of the other brass when he built my rifle. He said if I went Lapua I couldnt shoot Nosler, Norma, etc.. Something about the thickness of the case if I remember right. I chose not to go with Lapua so I could shoot the other cases. In watching the video and checking out the other brass offerings like Alpha and Peterson I would like to try those since they are offering the small primer pockets now. Is there any pressure related issues changing from one brass to the other I should be concerned about or just load my original load and go? Also, Have you tested running the small primer pocket in the 260 vs the larger primer pocket? Im really looking forward to see if it makes any difference in my SD and ES

[@PanhandlePrecision]

Kirk Goddard I’ve always heard it the other way around. Lapua is pretty thick, so if the chamber is cut for thinner brass, you could have an issue with bullet release due to neck dimensions. My reamer cuts the neck for a fired case neck O.D. of .298” That dimension is also what the chambers had in other 260s I’ve owned. That works for Lapua, Alpha, and Remington at least. There aren’t any other chamber dimensions that should matter. .298 is .005” more than loaded neck O.D. of Lapua brass.