Panpsychism: Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue 64

The discussion of alternative worldviews, from various forms of materialism to types of idealism, has exploded in recent years, and the notion of panpsychism is in the middle of the debate. In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore the different types of panpsychism being proposed, from more conservative forms that are linked to materialism, to older types that have been advocated by figures from AN Whitehead to Aristotle. They ask about the place of time and space in different views of reality, and tease out the connections to consciousness and eternity. Models including emergence and information theory rise, as well as the role of the brain, as they wonder about the direction in which this rich conversation is heading.
Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biology as a Fellow of Clare College. He was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics and From 2005 to 2010 was Director of the Perrott-Warrick project, Cambridge.
www.sheldrake.org
Rupert's latest book is...
The Science Delusion: 2020 Edition
www.sheldrake....
Dr Mark Vernon is a writer and psychotherapist. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.
www.markvernon.com
Mark's latest book is...
A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousness
www.markvernon....

[@RupertSheldrakePhD]

Note: at 3:19 I meant to say Annaka Harris....wife of Sam Harris... rather than Kamala Harris.

[@jiritriska9021]

Not a Freudian slip, definitely ??

[@THE-ONE-MX]

LOL

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

There is a concept in Christianity called "primacy of Christ. Scotus is right up your alley. This was all observed before.

[@perceivingacting]

3:14 for the full skit!!

[@magpiecity]

Scared me there for a while...

[@lidstrom-yd5pb]

Fascinating, wonderful conversation! It gives one hope that Western philosophy will eventually break free from the mechanistic materialistic vision of being that has kept the modern mind in shackles ever since the seventeenth century. The radical panpsychism or animism Sheldrake and Vernon are discussing here can eventually become the ontological and epistemological basis of a new, re-enchanted, re-sacralized post-modern world...

[@Jimi_Lee]

When was very young, before I learned stuff, I remember that EVERYTHING was alive.

[@jayfarina4890]

Dr. Sheldrake and his morphogenic field theory in conjunction with the likes of steiner and goethe is absolutely remarkable. In spirit and genius, he is the tesla of biological mechanisms.

[@perceivingacting]

That was going well...then you said "mechanisms".

[@jayfarina4890]

@@perceivingacting Sorry for the misleading vocabulary. The Creator controls all biological mechanisms. Describing them is where Dr. Sheldrakes genius lies. Hence the reference to Tesla.

[@CariMachet]

@@perceivingacting exactly what I came to say 💚

[@CariMachet]

@@jayfarina4890 there’s no creator and no proof of a sole creator of life > life is a build and everything everyone and every’thing’ does and thinks and feels matters to the build > earth is traveling through space in a spiral cone and that has meaning and life here reflects that action

[@jayfarina4890]

@@CariMachet you study Dr. Sheldrake and see things in that way??!! Youve been indoctrinated by those that pull the strings leading you away from truth. Your outlook during this time of kali yuga may lead to an eternal membership in the black lodge with those who set you on your current path.. Initiates understand the white lodge will rule the next age. The knowledge is hidden in plain sight and i urge you to seek it out. Your soul has been lied to from day one. Only truth can return its strength. To start, look into Dr. Rudolf Steiner. Our last speaker of truth. Do not associate him with anything but his own writings and learn just how big of a fantasy humanity lives in.

[@ellajones3098]

You are one of the loveliest humans ever

[@jonathanhockey9943]

Had the exact same thought when reading Galen Strawson, in criticism of his panpsychism, which is, as you say, just the latest way in which academic philosophy plays the role of apologist to materialist science

[@Autobotmatt428]

I agree. That I think is one of its flaws. They are trying to cling to some thing that doesn't work just to avoid a conclusion.

[@WildAlchemicalSpirit]

I love you guys. I'm completely in resonance with you. We are Soul Pod! ❤️🌞❤️

[@spiritfilled5758]

Rupert Thank you so much for sharing your work with all of us. I am so fascinated and interested in your idea of nature having memory.. I have had an experience while in meditation that very much makes it easy for me to entertain and desire to understand this concept. Wonderful work

[@colleenkaralee2280]

Rupert, it was some things you said a decade ago that made me realize there a morphic field ruling beings. For example, I discovered a morphic field ruling being over a town that I frequented, and I had to make peace with that being before I could have polite interactions with clerks and waiters there. Apparently in a previous lifetime I had chopped down a "holy" oak tree ..... still angry with me about that.

[@VictorTheBudgie]

Hi Rupert. I have been following your work for about 20 years and thank you for all the work you've done with animal intelligence, religious philosophy and everything else. I have some very interesting videos that prove many of your theories to be spot on. It started with 3 budgies that I was guardian for, who developed full blown speech. Over a period of about 20 years they began channeling the spiritual world and taught me how to tap in and record what was being passed on from there. I also began to find incredible hidden messages that far exceed anything anyone else has ever done in reverse speech as well. I call it biological quantum communications.

[@kjekelle96]

Fantastic interlocutors! This really excited me more to investigate these ideas and worldviews. Your conversational styles feel very zen and agapic, and I sense that that has deeply to do with your worldviews.

[@shaunpaulwallace]

Thank you both. Look forward to your intelligent discussions. Especially in this time and climate.

[@perceivingacting]

Let's see Dr Sheldrake address the Gnostics, Sophia, and the archons. That is called "cutting to the chase". Accordingly, everything is consciousness - planet Earth is Sophia's conscious dreaming.

[@AbbyTheOwll]

I believe we exist in an impersonal field of conciousness and the brain is a reciever, turning it into what we know as personal human consciousness. I feel like that corroborates with Jungs theory of collective unconcious, psychedelics and meditation experiences. It is interesting to think about!

[@aaronjamesparker9007]

The nature of things is so complicated that the first thing that is necessary to understand is that no single model will ever contain enough dimension to acutely represent how things work. Any model must contain the ability to evolve as it is applied through the change in any of its dimensions and therefore it would need to be infinitely complex. The physical nature of the flow of matter throughout space would surely closely resemble the Bernoulli effect. Likewise consciousness could be a feedback loop, a type of fabric that becomes more complex as it effects matter and as the interactions of nature feed back into the fabric.

[@kevinbough3105]

The only reason matter exists is because we have formed ideas about it.

[@biljanapapazovammann2972]

Yes and no....😉 We don't need to look for beginning of the mater or for the end....but we can try searching in between....😊

[@richardconner1283]

RUPERT HAS BEEN A VANGUARD AMOUNG SPIRITUAL SCIENTISTS GIVING REAL CREDIBILITY TO THESE PHENOMENA.

[@missh1774]

a good one is resisting that state of going into a daydream but not completely pulling away. theres a nice sensation of pushing n pulling that one can naturally inquire into.

[@sterlingarcher5698]

26: 35 (ish) - Exactly. First time I've heard someone else speak this idea, though I'm sure theres more. Soul-Body-Mind = light-prism-spectrum -Soul is the light -Body (physical form) is the prism -Mind is the spectrum, or refractive pattern The more complex the physical form (electron, molecule, bacteria, plant, insect, animal, star, galaxy), the more complex the refraction. In both cases, the spectrum and white light are the *same substance* but of a *different structure*

[@charliemcc6461]

After nearly 60 years of intimate experience with the natural wilderness (as such, in N. America) combined with an interdisciplinary, decades-long interest in human biopsychology, I believe we should carefully consider microbiologist Bruce Lipton's intuition about nanometer-sized so-called "microtubules," only recently confirmed by electron microscopy to be found in the cell membranes of all 3 major life kingdoms: plant, animal, & fungal. Lipton argues that tiny tubular-shaped protein structures just slightly larger than an average molecule may be able to interact electrodynamically with waves of sub-atomic energy (now widely known to nuclear physicists as the Quantum Field). The reception of subatomic *information* in the form of these energy waves that are free of the usual restraints of space & time by the microtubules (normally completely below our conscious awareness owing to the extreme subtlety of the energy AND the sheer noise volume of normal waking consciousness) may then be transferred by the cell membrane to the peripheral NS, and finally the central NS & brain. Furthermore, it is my belief that it is in the RIGHT hemisphere where the interpretation of the microtubule sensation happens, given that the much noisier and critical left hemisphere is simply not suited to process it). This very conditional reception and processing of changes in the Field might help explain a host of hitherto baffling phenomena such as specifically how intuition happens; premonitions, original/creative insights, dreams/dream effects, unknown or unexplained animal/plant/fungal behavior...even astral projection and bizarre synchronistic or drug-induced phenomena might be better understood through applying this emerging concept. How refreshingly different and appropriate (!) it feels to ascribe intelligence mainly to :forces *out there* beyond our highly-limited individual comprehension! I personally now believe it is one of the keys to understanding consciousness; not only our own, but that of all life we share this fragile planet with.

[@floydwilkes9904]

Gracias! Remarkable conversation.

[@fracta1organism]

one thing missing from this discussion is how information, the state of the system (wave function) as defined by the configuration of the parts from moment to moment, is a kind of proto-consciousness that can generate different levels of complexity within the system, and hence different levels of consciousness, in phase transitions. in this sense, the sun might "decide" to eject a solar flare once it reaches a critical threshold in the physics of the system, and so it may be conscious but not in the same way, or at the same level of complexity of integrated information, as when we make a conscious decision based on the information of the systems we are part of.

[@psyoperator]

My personal belief is that all of this is a sort of mental simulation of infinite being.

[@truthmatters3449]

Thank you very much for your blessed thoughts!

[@borderlands6606]

A thought provoking show, gentlemen. Re. Mark's comments about the reformation, Calvin's position on the nature of reality as deterministic, and man as a passive observer of a destiny in which any sense of active volition is illusory, prefigures materialism in many ways. Compared to Panpsychism and Idealism, Dualism seems to have been disregarded as inflationary. Nevertheless, I wonder if a kind of super-dualism isn't closer to the truth? An ultimate reality in which we are protagonists and observers, mortal and immortal, undergoing the vicissitudes of a manifestly rule-bound and machine-like existence, but as gravitationally spiritual creatures drawn to transcendent realities?

[@jkramer4244]

Schroedinger assumed in his book "Mind and Matter", that conciousness is some kind of singularity, contradicting the theory of multi minds. Very interesting !!

[@colleenkaralee2280]

The mind entity is a construct or "mechanism".

[@petervandenengel1208]

Idealism (the word is just the expression of its spacetime geometry: emotion is the same thing) is a very human expression of its meaning, to emphasize it. The everlasting goal.

[@MetalNick]

Ooo this is gonna be good. I'm sure it will be uncomfortable too haha

[@Nerd3927]

I am into boats. It is totally normal to give vessels personal names and experience their character. When I leave, I always pat the same spot on the railing as to say goodbye, and I know my fellow liveaboards do the same. It is much more a family member and a friend than a inanimate "thing". I do love my boat and take care of here, and the previous owner build her him self, so he put even more of him self in. I also work on a museum ship that used to belong to a church group back in the 80ties. I can still feel the love on board, and somehow she always acquires what she needs. There is such a tail of good fortune, and she now is in a state as good as new. It makes me think love and care can rub off to objects, and the object can then attract loving people.... Thanks for reading sofar :-) Do you think I am mad, or are you a seafarer your self?

[@perceivingacting]

Latter.

[@borderlands6606]

In travelling communities, it is traditional that any caravan in which a person dies has to be destroyed, not sold on. The idea that an owner somehow permeates seemingly inanimate objects, has a long history in religion and folklore.

[@simontemplarGB]

Having listened to your dialogue with Dom Bede Griffiths previously it occurs to me that what are discussed as Angels in a religious context equate to what we tend to call principles in a more secular way with the implication that there is no materiality to principles, that they are purely abstract. In the current situation we find that many are prepared to sacrifice the principle of liberty for the illusion of physical safety. Safety may also be a principle, but one might argue that it is lower on the scale. It seems that many do not realise that principles have the power to clothe themselves in what we call matter, to become manifest in the real world as systems that may restrict us or allow for a degree of freedom. The question is as to how these principles originated. In the case of Angels it is likely that God made them which is shorthand for an idea we struggle to encompass with our Human mind. The process seems to be that as God emanates in the form of the creation, principles or Angels become clothed in matter of ever increasing density, dividing repeatedly into increasing numbers of beings that are their emanations which in turn are clothed in that which has the appearance of increasingly dense matter. If we take the view that we are made of Angels rather than star dust it becomes evident that we share in the Godhead that which in order to be God must have certain characteristics which are all knowing, all powerful and all present, so in lesser degree we reflect these characteristics unless we can say with Christ that "I and my Father are one". I am not necessarily implying the historical personage of Christ, but the principle that lies in the idea of the Christ within. As was mentioned there are also the fallen angels or the principles that on a certain level are necessary for the full manifestation of an apparently material world, the Human expression of which is the attempt to replicate the characteristics of the Godhead through technology. It seems obvious that if consciousness exists anywhere then it exists everywhere, even in those places where it is denied since the things themselves are only a cipher for denial. We make a hammer or computer and call it dead or unconscious because that is what it represents to us and yet it is equally a part of the emanation of the Godhead. On the other hand we can create a work of art, literature or music or anything and though we may not give it life as first cause we may express life through it. The Earth upon which we stand exists similarly having been woven by the many principles or Angels in such a way that it reflects the intention of the Godhead and thus in its original state was declared to be good. God to be God, whether so called or otherwise, makes things from self, there is no lump of dead matter out there that is other than God.

[@suedenim6590]

I feel that you are erring greatly. You're clearly an intellectual so I find it puzzling. Your discussion and view of God as something "other" and separate is wrong in my humble opinion. There is only the one "thing", life, there is no "other". You need only remain seated in quiet contemplation to connect with the source friend and it's not other, separate and different it's quite the opposite

[@suedenim6590]

Life arranges itself into higher and higher orders of magnitude and complexity reflected in the iterations of sensory observational capacity of the being but at present we have no data to suggest that anything "other" exists and to assert that God is somehow separate and other is just plain wrong in my opinion, there is no other being creating angels or doing anything. I feel a good rule of thumb for a soul/animus is the ability to collapse the wave function and not a conscious decision on whether something is "alive" even if it's acheived via consensus

[@simontemplarGB]

@@suedenim6590 I think you have misread, "emanate" is the important word, and the last sentence seems to amplify this.

[@stephentoons]

if the Sun has consciousness can we communicate with it?

[@waleskaelektra17]

Thankfully 🙌💖

[@petervandenengel1208]

It is true that matter as it created the cosmic constant only led to three layers in the geometry, but life consists of at least four: the ~ returning wave and human consciousness has six. This does not mean the ground theory of spacetime had to be abandoned/ but it can evolve into more complex sysyems of 'consciousness': internal response system, regarding its reality (world in which it lives, as a dimension).

[@footballfactory8797]

Awesome stuff!

[@CaptainPhilosophical]

I don't understand how Rupert's objection to idealism is how time is downgraded to a spatial dimension. If time, space, matter, and energy are arising within consciousness and are not static but animated how is time a spatial dimension? Isn't time just the measurement of moving objects relative to other moving objects? It is conceivable that moving objects would arise within Consciousness therefore giving the perception of time.

[@madmagus7693]

I like the panpsychist model as long as it leans away from mechanistic materialism. That said, I believe that the 'hard problem' of science isn't consciousness in and of itself. The problem stems from the erroneous belief that consciousness isn't material. If it were, there could be no interaction between mind and brain. There simply would be no point of connectivity. It wouldn't be a 'hard problem' for science, it would be an insurmountable one. Just because we haven't the tools necessary to measure consciousness doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as a material substance. At one point, we didn't know that there was such a thing as a gaseous state of matter. That didn't mean that gasses didn't exist. We merely had to refine our tools enough to measure the gaseous state before we could incorporate it into our model of the universe. At some point, we'll find the proper measuring stick to measure the mind.

[@Intelligentsia101]

There is only one soul/mind, the fragmentation of thought restricts acsess, thus creates a multiplicity of illusions, the whole of existence is a context contained superorganism. Intelligence is the ability to recognise the truth when you stumble apon it.

[@amywas1]

...followed by the capacity to restrain oneself from transmuting that truth into dogma.

[@shaunpaulwallace]

Some will argue what is true.

[@RetroResearch]

We don't know what matter is. We don't know what soul or consciousness are. We create concepts which we use almost like chess pieces to achieve a victory over Mystery. The "mind-matter split" is an absurdity in that we have only a vague agreement about the terms at play. We assume that because we sense that we have similar ideas about "mind" and "matter" that those ideas MUST reflect reality, when, in fact, we have no basis for certainty in this regard whatsoever. For myself, I see absolutely no evidence for such a split except in a synthetic philosophical sense. If we jettison our cherished terms, I'm afraid we have no basis for seeing mind and matter as two different things.

[@LukePawlowski8]

I know it doesn't matter much, but gravity is likely to be a push or pressure. The whole idea of a force-pull may be flawed. The expansion of the universe may be an illusion of pressure rising & slowing light which makes it appear as if our universe is expanding.

[@LukePawlowski8]

...so the oldest ideas, where levity & gravity goes together fits with some of the newest ideas of quantum gravity. Some suggest a quantum field pressure gradient that both lifts you up and presses you down in almost equal measure, and it's just the mass of the Earth which tips the scale every so slightly that bodies are drawn together as if they were floating "up" towards areas of lower pressure which looks for all the worlds like something pulling us down to Earth.

[@wizardatmath]

@@LukePawlowski8 indeed. I'm on the same wave 🙏

[@normaodenthal8009]

What you can see from the background is that interesting and intelligent people read lots of books.

[@perceivingacting]

It's a worry.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

Books and scriptures dont make sages. Conciousness does.

[@normaodenthal8009]

@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis Consciousness makes everything, but it’s the level of consciousness that makes the difference. Every sage is conscious, but not everyone who is conscious is a sage. One thing you can say about yoghurt: at least it’s got culture.

[@johnbuckner2828]

Reality lives 🗣️🎶👀

[@ericasentire8809]

I like your work, the brain is dead tho only awake because of the spirt in the belly, The power of the spirt in the belly creates awareness in the brain. Like wen two music notes in harmony create a 3rd sound, The soul is the 3rd sound, temporary , as we are yet alive, but dead, He who is in a body , is in a dead body, yet alive.

[@morphixnm]

So idealism does not require that consciousness be outside of space and time as those dimensions can be seen as being within consciousness.

[@DavidKolbSantosh]

Panpsychism in the Samkhya-Yoga system of philosophy is not of the opinion that everything has consciousness but that everything is in and of consciousness, it is the fundamental base of all manifestation and permeates all through it. The absolute non-relative has two potentials (shaktis) a subjective potential and an objective potential, these are extremely complementary and interdependent to the point of them not being wholly different, and in fact in the inherent condition they are one in the non-relative absolute. When these two potentials of subject and object relate, there is consciousness, which is I-Am-ness, the bare consciousness or knowledge of existing. Consciousness always has both a subjective and an object aspect, a knowing and a known. The "I" of the I-Am-ness is predominately from the subjective potential the "am-ness" is from the objective potential. Consciousness has three modes called the three gunas in Sanskrit. They are the mode of clarity (sattva) the mode of will/force (rajas) and the mode of inertia/momentum. The "I" side of the I-Am-ness dichotomous relationship is clarity predominate and from this mode, in concert with ratios of the other two modes, evolves all the subjective apparatus (mind and senses), from the inert mode, in concert with ratios of the other two modes, evolves the objective quantum data/information bites which then evolve into the five elements. And the force/will mode makes everything work or function, it is the impeller. So everything is really different functional states in consciousness. Inert states of consciousness have, due to the obscuring quality of inertia, reduced clarity/knowing ability and become objective to clarity. These three modes of consciousness, functioning in concert together and in different ratios of mutual domination, give rise to all phenomena. So the macrocosmic inertial aspect of consciousness is the collective unconscious (it is as if unconscious due to obscuring of clarity mode by inertia mode) containing all the data of information that makes up the elemental world, but this data (which is retained due to the resistance of change by the inertial mode), in order to be actualized requires a knowing agent, a subject (and of course the subjective is from the clarity mode) to actualize that data. Rupert, the atoms do not have feelings, they are consciousness dominated by the mode of inertia, they're attraction and repulsion are results of momentum (habit of nature)! The initial force is from the will/force mode, but that force is in the macrocosmic collective consciousness, and it's actions are from collective subliminal impression from all individual subjective agents, which are all interconnected within the macro consciousness. Nothing is separate! The collective subliminal impressions, which are retained by the inertial (resistance to change) mode, is making the habits of nature. Try to understand, you are on the right track in many ways, but you need more information! Your are incomplete. This also applies to the sun, the sun cannot choose to not shine, it is dependent on the macrocosmic consciousness. You really hit the mark in your work when you brought up the concept of "habit of nature" so you have keep on track! Habit is not conscious action, it is coming from subliminal subconscious impressions from past percept and actions. It is unmindful action you see! It is inertial/momentum/automatic..do you follow me? Not from conscious "feelings" and "choice". Elements are inertia/mass Sun and atoms are "elemental/inertial" stuff, not the clarity revealing showing stuff. The key to understanding a collective Panpsychism is understanding the three modes of psyche! Clarity/knowing/alert mode, force/will/desire/effort mode and inertia/momentum/resistance to change mode. All manifestation and the form it takes is because of desire. Desire is the source of force/will/passion mode. Consciousness is not continuous it is discrete, it is in moments, both on the microcosm scale and the macrocosm scale, on the macrocosmic scale we have dissolutions (pralaya) of manifestation or cosmic consciousness back in to the Absolute periodically, these are the cycles of creation preservation and destruction in Hinduism. Present moment was determined by past moments, due to subliminal impressions left from every percept of every moment, this happens collectively, the precepts from all individual but inter-connected subjective agents. The more inertia that is present the less is clarity. And there must be cognitive apparatus, which evolved from where there is predominance of the mode of clarity. The elemental pole is the extreme of inertia. it is a spectrum in consciousness. I am explaining how everything emerges in consciousness, it is on macro and microcosm. It all works the same. It is fractal in that way or holographic. What I am explaining here is a highly developed panpsychic system found in the Yoga Philosophy and it includes very developed theories of causation on both mental and elemental (which are interconnected as they are both in consciousness) levels. As well as an explanation of time, which of course is intricately related with causation/mutation. All phenomena already exist in the noumenon (the inertial predominated unconscious, which is collective). A phenomenon may either be arisen, which we call the present, yet to arise, which we call the future, or have receded back into the noumenon, they're substratum,wich we call the past. In the noumenon the past and future always exist. Only in the phenomenal realm of conscious experience is there sequential knowledge in a time/space continuum. A phenomenon arises due to conditional/incidental causes, when those conditions shift and thus the an up-risen operative phenomenon can no longer be sustained, it recedes again into the noumenon and another phenomenon, that is conducive the the prevailing conditions, arises. The conditional causes are not the impelling force of the arising, but merely remove obstructions from yet to arise phenomena becoming operative due to the outflowing nature of the noumenon, like the farmer pierces the barrier to one flooded field to irrigate the neighbouring field. Prevailing conditions are them selves phenomena that have arisen and fallen in this way. It is a network of interdependent arising and falling phenomena. And in the background, in the deep collective unconscious, is the imprints from the percepts of all sentient subjective agents with their sense apparatus which has arisen according the dominance of the three modes. Five senses, five kinds of sense data, and five elements. The cognitive apparatus arises from the mode of clarity, and the objective sense data and elements from the inertial mode, and all driven by the collective subliminal imprints deposited in the unconscious from all subjective agents from past percepts which guide the force/will mode. Yes Whitehead is correct matter (or better said objectivity) does contribute to consciousness or being knowing it's self, as without an object, consciousness or being becomes so clear that it is un-apparent to it's self, then the subject/object dichotomy collapses back to the non-relative absolute! Patanjali yoga sutras says 1-2&3"Yoga is the suppression of the operations in consciousness, then it abides in the inherent state of being (the absolute)" Again he says 3-55"in the mode of clarity (the knowing mode) becomes equal in purity (free from all objective adulterations) to being, that is the Absolute" This system states that the teleological purpose of it's manifestation as a functioning reality from the non-relative zero-dimensional Absolute state is to provide experience and knowledge of its being to that Absolute non relational eternal non-dual Self. So this is an eternal on going process of the Self realizing it's self through an endless variety of ways through unlimited subjective portions within this operating manifestation, culminating in total realization of it's self as the Absolute and then the subjective portion, in whom that realization took place, resolves back in to the nonrelational state of the Absolute. For the rest of the subjective portions the show goes on.

[@yossarian1633]

Try paragraph breaks if you expect people to read such a lengthy comment. That's what's preventing me from reading past the first two sentences.

[@DavidKolbSantosh]

@@yossarian1633 well if you can't get past the first two sentences I would think it is alot more than just lack of paragraphs going on there! But hey...I'll give it try!

[@DavidKolbSantosh]

@@yossarian1633 Ok my friend try it now if you want.

[@yossarian1633]

@@DavidKolbSantosh 👍

[@davidcardill4607]

It takes a long time to learn one thing. An atom doesn't think about anything, it only just recently came out of the 'dumb energy' in a self realisation moment which is more akin to isn't:is than it is to an 'I am' moment because the very thought 'I' and the thought 'am' are far too complicated for a newborn life form, and this is how life and eveolution go :)

[@davidcardill4607]

And certainly yes, all matter, or all life, whatever applicable term we wish to use to call it, it all was founded in Energy, or The River of Life, and it thus uses energy in every way possible once it enters into the material world or the prime material plane, whatever applicable term we wish to use to call this, and this is also called The Tree of Life, the self organising and built structures within the material world of the universe. The River of Life is the energy stream which is everywhere all the time and in unlimited quantities and the Tree of Life is all of the constructs derived from The River.

[@petermueller7494]

Dr Sheldrake - I enjoy your books and talks a lot - am just wondering don't you think there is something going on right now with "the pandemic" as you call it ....

[@Mystery_G]

I'm curious as to how much scientific research has been done on karma and if there is any suggestive evidence to this potential, how this could/would relate with panpsychism? For clarity: the notion of karma being past action that produces a present act, which forces the actor to produce new action in perpetuity.

[@ethanconnelly8794]

In my mind anything that has the ability to collapse the wavefunction must have some degree of mind. But the enigma of the hard problem is precisely entanglement with the point of wavefunction collapse. Since qualia is actually within the instantaneous "now" of collapsing the wavefunction and entanglement with the entity being observed in the fourth dimension that is connected for us by light. Furthermore, when two atoms share an electron in a covalent bond this electron binds the two into a higher form of consciousness. This is because the electron is still in its pre-observed probabilistic form. As we move up the scale we find that the higher level of integrated complexity brings a higher form of consciousness. The sun therefore has a lower form of consciousness than our minds. Since we have the ability to process sense data in the form of electromagnetic radiation in various ways within our brain. The brain can hold quantum states for a long period of time and this extra time allows the higher degrees of qualitative experience. Dr Sheldrake I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed your book the science dilusion and people need to break out of the dogmatic views they hold on reality. The point about the location of objects was one that struck a chord with me. For instance, if I am looking at a lamp in my room. Where is this lamp? Is it in my brain or is it in my mind? It's clearly in my mind. My mind therefore is not located in my brain since the lamp clearly isn't in my brain. This is so obvious yet so many people trip up on this narrative that the mind is in the brain. The answer is both. It's both within the brain and outside the brain and is connected by electromagnetic radiation at the moment of wavefunction collapse. This is the fourth dimension and it is space-time itself as an experienced "now". I haven't fully fleshed out my thoughts fully here and I might not have articulated my points as I would have liked. But I hope you see what I'm getting at. The main thing i get from all this is that yes conservative pansychism is holding on to materialism. But it's also epiphenomenal at the same time. This is a combination of both with the measurement problem being at the heart where our "hard problem" lies. It's enigmatic and impossible to discern since it's now and cannot be anything but now. Hmm I'm waffling now. Anyhow hope this gets some ears.

[@suedenim6590]

It shouldn't be "If a tree falls and no one is around.." the saying should be If no one is around to experience reality then is it real. I like your idea of wave function collapse but of course the many interpretations of the old double split show in some instances and viewpoints measuring devices which are of course inanimate collapse wave function. That's the tricky thing though without opening the box is the cat purring. These ideas are just too complex to discuss through the medium of a comment section thread and have to be discussed in person they're simply too weighty to flesh out. I feel wave function collapse as an indicator of soul/animus is an interesting proposal that I shall ponder further friend. Thanks for taking the time to comment and have a great day

[@ethanconnelly8794]

@@suedenim6590 That's why I think these 'measuring devices' which are in fact any material that has an ability to collapse the wavefunction, has some element of mind. Hence pansychism is quite likely.

[@cymaticatom]

Emergent is a much better word than emanation

[@thoughfullylost6241]

Yall should read Charles Eastman soul of the Indian

[@JosephPardyMusic]

Hi Rupert, I am a big fan and I was wondering if you had ever come across the work of Eric Dubay?

[@psyoperator]

Lol... dude is a flat earth paid astroturf shill.

[@Steve-ul8qb]

@@psyoperator its rude to just laugh someone off like that. Can you back up your claims? Can you enlighten us with your wisdom, or is it easier for you to just attack and protect your view? Maybe Joseph is only just coming across this information and is seeking guidance and he finds you? I do agree with the premise of your comment, but your position of high ground also make you a shill. We need to help each other!!!

[@psyoperator]

@@Steve-ul8qb I have vids that prove flat earth is an intelligence controlled astroturf fake demographic. It's called the United States of Astroturf.

[@Steve-ul8qb]

@@psyoperator then why not direct him there instead of laughing him off?

[@psyoperator]

@@Steve-ul8qb because I tend to think at this point anyone promoting those clowns are part of the show... and I am willing to bet that this guy IS a sockpuppet.

[@John_Bradbury]

Panpsychism is not equivalent to animism just as consciousness and life are not equivalent.

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

Don't worry, panpsychism can be corrupted also.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

It will. But we will move on early enough. Gods true name can not be uttered by human tongues.

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis My cat is God, you cannot prove the opposite.

[@NotOrdinaryInGames]

@Fray Bentos In your world? Yes!

[@SuperBjanka]

Interesting subject, but were in nature do you find eternity ?

[@spiralx6249]

Perhaps in the way successive generations simply continue to arise. Or the way evolution can repeatedly invent similar mechanisms, in different ecological niches. Or in the very recent surprise that under the Arctic Ocean, where no-one ever thought to look, there are living organisms. There is a kind of recurrence, and consistency, and universality, which echoes the deeper and more abstract notion we have of eternity.

[@SuperBjanka]

@@spiralx6249 life grows slow in freezing cold, but that dont make it eternal. I think its a human idea, just like evil. But a debate on this subject are needed, because we can´t understand the world and nature as long as we use terms that have no counterpart in reality.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

Winter, Spring, Summer, Autum, Winter, Spring, Summer, Autum...

[@hassandiallo5326]

God is in nature, nature is in god, the computer scientist is in the software, the software is in the computer scientist kind of thing; in Islam, we say: the creator is not within his creation, because the 2 are completely different in all aspects. Allah( the God) created nature, and he does not dwell within it. HE dwells above His creation. Science is the study of the creation, through which the creator manifests himself. The cook is seen through the cooking, etc. Panpsychism can only apply to the creator's knowledge because he knows what is happening everywhere at all times.

[@dianablackman4528]

As much as I love to listen to Rupert Sheldrake, I get irritated listening to Mark Vernon. Cannot follow his fuzzy thought patterns.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

Enjoy the difference :3

[@Square-Watermelon]

Jesus is God & He loves you Jesus is God and He will soon be seen by all men, women, and children up in the clouds. Jesus is returning now! Exodus 3:14 (God speaking) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. John 8:58 (Jesus speaking) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 10:30 (Jesus speaking) I and my Father are one. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, *The everlasting Father,* The Prince of Peace. Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us.* John 1:1 & 14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 And the Word was made flesh (Lord Jesus), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 8:24 (Jesus speaking) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 14:9 (Jesus speaking) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Hebrews 1:1-3, & 8 (God calls His Son "O God" because Jesus IS God in the flesh) 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; *and every eye shall see him,* and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Isaiah 44:6 (God speaking) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God Revelation 1:8 (Jesus speaking) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, *the Almighty.* Revelation 22:13 (Jesus speaking) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. --- There Are None Righteous Romans 3:10 & 23 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Luke 5:31-32 (Jesus speaking) 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance 1 Peter 3:18 (The word “quicken” means “to make alive”) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[@newdawnrising8110]

Call it whatever you like but we simply live in the mind of God folks. Why can’t ppl just say it? We are direct children of God. Go figure.

[@John_Bradbury]

Panpsychism just moves the problem of consciousness to a different level, just as God moves the problem of existence to a different level. Both are intellectual tricks.

[@spiralx6249]

I would rather say that looking at the problem in these different ways opens up more avenues for exploration. A bit like the way string theory conjures up so many different ways of looking at reality. And eventually we discover how they are just angles, or perspectives, and not fundamentally different. That allows you to go deeper, possibly - and eventually, to beyond a simple intellectual exercise.

[@perceivingacting]

Which problem of c? Mind-matter dualism? If everything is consciousness then it solves that one! But opens up the Q, whose consciousness? Answer: Gaia's. We and the planet are her dreaming. Gnosticism 101.

[@nataliebutler]

@@perceivingacting Who is dreaming Gaia?

[@perceivingacting]

@@nataliebutler Gaia is a goddess not a dream.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

You are a intellectual trick :p

[@ronymascarenhas5188]

Cure HIV Crisprs Cas 9 , 2021.

[@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis]

SALVSMVNDI

[@Gringohuevon]

gibberish