Paper Jam: The Mario Game That Wishes It Didn't Exist

[@AurumAlex64]

tl;dw: Brothership was a very refreshing thing to see after spending three weeks with Paper Jam

[@onecoloranimation254]

what if instead of youtube it was called 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴tube and instead of watching videos 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖛𝖎𝖉𝖊𝖔𝖘 𝖙𝖔𝖚𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖉 𝖕𝖕

[@nickk3077]

How tf do they go from Paper Jam, the most uninspired Mario and Luigi game, to Brothership?lol

[@AurumAlex64]

@@nickk3077 I don't know, but I am definitely not complaining

[@kachosuffer7]

@@nickk3077 Different devs

[@keeby4]

@@nickk3077there was a 9 year gap so they probably had time to go “this is terrible, let’s fix this.”

[@twocandan1979]

Peach saying that about Luigi is where it really clicked how bad the bizarre cynisism towards Luigi was. She'd never say something like that about him, it was very out of character and almost made her feel like a mouthpiece for the script writer.

[@teeth227]

luigi is the indomitable human spirit against the indifferent cruelty of paper jam

[@lrobin-is8dg]

You are so right wayne hylics

[@PingasCreeper]

@@lrobin-is8dg I am now envisioning Klonoa and Wayne talking philosophically about Mario games

[@lrobin-is8dg]

@@PingasCreeper now this is peak fiction

[@404_nowheresnotfound3]

@@PingasCreeper The reason why Dedusmuln wants to study paper cups is because he likes Paper Mario.

[@milliondollarmistake]

Luigi has that autism dog in him

[@twindrill2852]

The Luigi mocking is so odd to me considering that it takes place _after_ Dream Team…y’know, the game where Luigi becomes a vital factor in saving an entire kingdom through his dreams alone. They seriously need to cut him some slack!

[@King_Luigi]

Even Bowser got some respect for him and called him by his name at the end of DT.

[@raphanderconph]

Bro, that happen also Wait superstar saga in that game Mario legit gains the power of gods😂

[@raphanderconph]

​@@King_LuigiBro, that happen also Wait superstar saga in that game Mario legit gains the power of gods😂

[@Oh-Ben]

What I don't get is how hard they botched that joke because Paper Luigi is kinda a joke. It would of been easier to have the paper characters be rude to him in reference to their Luigi. But no, every character does it.

[@raphanderconph]

@@Oh-Ben wdym?

[@Christiangamer22]

Man. Luigi being hated by the game because he is sincere and it is not. That goes hard.

[@Mister_Oddity]

like, what is this? Everybody hates Chris, but Luigi?

[@LackofGimmicks]

I don't know why Mario RPG fans perceive anything slightly negative nintendo does as a personal attack

[@JuanLeon-oe6xe]

​@@LackofGimmicks You haven't met the Final Fantasy "fan"dom yet, for these guys _everything_ is a personal attack...

[@el_mr6439]

​@@LackofGimmicks all the games in the serie make jokes about Luigi, but he always was respected despite being in Mario's shadow. In this game the jokes feel even out of character in some cases

[@WinWaker11]

@@LackofGimmicks No one is taking it as a personal attack. It's just incredibly grating when a story's writing goes "Ha ha, look at how BAD this character is!" 30 times over, especially when that character has proven himself to be competent on multiple games.

[@microkrop9580]

I think it just gripes me because Paper Jam came off of a series that propped Luigi up as being able to stand up as a Hero in his own right. He saved Mario from being poisoned, helped the baby bros when mario went missing for abit, was the one to lead the charge into battle against a Bowser who had the powers of a whole universe and dreams. Hell Luigi is hailed a Hero in the Bean Bean kingdom and called by his name by the officials and locals well before Bowser does and the Mushroom Kingdom inhabitants do as well

[@toledochristianmatthew9919]

It should have been paper luigi because he is more of a joke than mainline luigi.

[@microkrop9580]

@@toledochristianmatthew9919 I think that woulda made more sense, that luigi never went with mario on his journeys and even became a major villain in thousand year door

[@ALN21000]

@@microkrop9580I think you mean Super Paper Mario when Luigi was that Mr. L guy.

[@microkrop9580]

@@ALN21000 ah I forgot it was super paper, but I mean my point still stands for paper luigi

[@kiddkd7242]

@@microkrop9580Paper Luigi did travel with Mario in Super.

[@CalculusMan]

Paper jam seems to me like a game that ran out of resources to make. I think that this game was already a warning sign in retrospect that alphadream was financially in trouble.

[@FindingsOfAnArmouredMind]

They ran out of paper

[@Joosher56]

@@FindingsOfAnArmouredMindand jam

[@hypernova_119]

​@@Joosher56 And dreams

[@mayborneflower]

@@hypernova_119 Even teams.

[@tilda12341]

⁠@@mayborneflowerAnd partners

[@kaizermierkrazy6886]

It's honestly such whiplash how Dream Team goes from diving deep into Luigi's character, exploring his insecurities and showing how much he loves his brother, from being the hero of the story even....to Papa Jam shitting on him non-stop.

[@aaronTGP_3756]

You know there's a problem when Sticker Star is brought up as an example of better storytelling.

[@chrange9714]

Sticker Star's story was not better than Paper Jam's, that's extremely ridiculous

[@rockoman100]

@@chrange9714 The point is that both Sticker Star and Paper Jam have very uninteresting stories, but Sticker Star still does better environmental storytelling than Paper Jam.

[@chrange9714]

@@rockoman100 One, neither games have uninteresting stories. They're simple yes but so is 90% of Mario games including the M&L ones. Simple doesn't equal bad. Two, Sticker Star definitely doesn't do environmental storytelling better than Paper Jam does

[@Shosholegbt]

@@chrange9714Watch the video agains. You’re annoying and ignore willingfully things

[@geraldolucrezia]

​@@chrange9714yeah, obviously simple ≠ bad, but that's not what anyone is saying. Paper mario on the N64 had a pretty simple plot, but it had more substance to it. Bowser didn't just appear once in the intro, get peach with precisely 0 lines of dialogue from anybody, and then at the ending as the final boss, every chapter had its own little story to it and there were characters you interacted with, which made the world feel alive, and in between every chapter there were intervals where you played as peach and went around the castle while trying not to get caught. The general plot is still simple, but there's more to it, while in Sticker Star and Paper Jam there's nothing (tho I still feel like the problem is mostly worse with SS)

[@Lampoluke]

Flanderizing Starlow to make her hate Luigi even more is so funny to me because 1 starlow isn't in the series anymore and 2 in Smash, Solid Snake himself explains that Luigi is just as strong as Mario, and there is no way Starlow has more credibility than Snake. Now I want an M&L game with Snake.😊

[@Mikescool444]

I thought you just went “and 2, smash.” For half a second

[@krubbington]

Mario & Luigi & Snake

[@Bunny5-0-1]

>starlow isn't in the series anymore OH BOY

[@based980]

starlow is in brothership. shes much better though

[@السراقالمجهول]

paper peach being mean toward paper luigi doesnt even make any sense i usually like paper luigi more because of this aspect, he is a completely different character especially in supet he is more anxious that coward, and he has trust problem, and can be manipulated easily through a simple self esteem boost but he is more capable than ever before, i really dont understand how can you belittle such character

[@SillierPutty]

*snorts* ah yes, supet paper mario

[@السراقالمجهول]

@@SillierPutty the t is beside r in the keboard give me a break😭

[@jeremyknight9980]

Yeah Paper Luigi was one of the 4 heroes and was needed to help save the universe, I can't believe they made Paper Peach have such a low opinion of him.

[@torchthe62nd63]

Brothership already looks like it avoids almost all the issues in Paper Jam and we have exactly 1 trailer. God I'm so happy this New Soup style/Mario Mandates thing is dead.

[@minnow1337]

i thought the same with totk and was mistaken

[@Rediscool9]

@@minnow1337 Tears of the Kingdom?

[@leontriestoart]

​​@@minnow1337 I'm so pissed they replaced all the enemies in tears of the kingdom with toads

[@onecoloranimation254]

what if instead of youtube it was called 𝓯𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓴tube and instead of watching videos 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖛𝖎𝖉𝖊𝖔𝖘 𝖙𝖔𝖚𝖈𝖍𝖊𝖉 𝖕𝖕

[@minnow1337]

@@Rediscool9 The trailer introduced a lot of gameplay elements that seemed to address my biggest critiques of botw, but they hardly made any substantial use of the mechanics they introduced

[@DoctorTex]

This game was not a crossover between Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario. It was a crossover between Mario & Luigi and *Sticker Star.*

[@skywardarceus]

Sticker Star was good though

[@DoctorTex]

@@skywardarceus I totally respect your opinion, but not many people share that opinion. I'll share mine. Sticker Star is middling at best when viewed in a bubble, and is the worst of the series when you view it after the joyous fun of the original, the peak gameplay of TTYD, and the heartwarming/wrenching story of Super Paper Mario. Sticker Star does not have the story, does not have the gameplay, and does not have the fun.

[@juliofigueroa5567]

I only enjoyed Sticker Star because it was my FIRST Paper Mario game and all the others I played in the series made me enjoy the best ones even more.

[@GabrylMD]

@@DoctorTex That's probably the nicest way to say that OP is objectively wrong. But I don't disagree with your notion. Sticker Star did absolutely nothing to reinvigorate the series. And unfortunately influenced the next 2 Paper Mario games after.

[@josueproductions5007]

No this game was a crossover between the New Super Mario Bros games and Sticker Star

[@MineCrapSteve]

The most enjoyable thing about Paper Jam (or "Paper Jam Bros.", as it is for some reason named over here) is actually, ironically enough, due to its lower quality, and that's its abundance of insane glitches. Said glitches include being able to clip out of bounds almost anywhere, being able to activate a cutscene during a load transition (which lets you move around while holding R to fast-forward, meaning you can move around at hyperspeed), or escaping a mission and then beating the final boss, causing you to be unable to return to said boss and thus bricking your file. This sheer level of brokenness (?) allows you to beat this otherwise very long-winded game in less than an hour, which I like to interpret as flipping the game off.

[@halo4224]

incredible how BiS made starlow more sincere and redeemable in a single scene (the shroob refight in bowser's vault) than the entirety of paper jam altogether

[@ADuckWithAYoutubeAccount]

They will never make me hate Starlow!! She was great before Paper Jam flanderized her

[@delirare]

@@ADuckWithAKZbinAccount True,my brothers,Paper Jam feels like a freaking character assassination and it is not even funny

[@fallenstars8775]

Yeah, the one scene where she's a bit much and making a bit of fun of luigi defeating the shroobs is good because she immediately gets the truth and apologizes, cause like, imagine travellong with a coward that steps up at times and learning he defeated an entire alien race, you're gonna be doubtful.

[@belltowersubductions5104]

Imagine if the villa at Mount Birr was a Swiss chalet-themed dungeon where you had to go through all the staff areas in order to gather the staff keys to access the resort proper, and you had to explore the rooms of the hotel in order to find where the Peaches were being kept, and you had to navigate construction equipment set up to make the hotel more comfortable for Paper Bowser, culminating in a boss battle against the 3d chief of staff and head of the paper construction chief on a ski lift going up to the highest mountain where the Peaches were being kept in a lodge... ... But that would take too much time away from the player's busy schedule of repeatedly falling off bridges.

[@AurumAlex64]

Yup, the villa is like the prime example of "this could've been so, so much more" in Paper Jam.

[@dragonbornexpress5650]

YES! Hell, they could have done that for most of the areas in the game.

[@JinlongTheGoldenDragon]

Sort of like twilight princess’s snow mansion, it was great

[@rinn5238]

This game could've looked so different if it was made with the previous M&L games and Super Paper Mario or Thousand-Year Door in mind. I wonder if we'll get a real crossover in the future now that both series are supposedly back on track.

[@paul-nj1ig]

Apparently they didn't have the budget to for a large scale game because they were already struggling after dream team didn't meet expected sales

[@cannabishornliu6119]

Only time will take but not anytime soon, that's for sure!

[@steam-powereddolphin5449]

This may seem like a long shot, but would it be possible to one day see a Partners in Time re-release, a post-Mario Mandate Paper Jam remake, etc.?

[@dragonbornexpress5650]

@@steam-powereddolphin5449. Possible? Maybe. Likely? Absolutely not.

[@enderallygolem]

Paper Mario and Luigi?

[@papermr.magolorguy7957]

Now that you mention it, the amount of dread and hate of the type of “self-aware humor” that’s constantly done in this game and many other video games or movies in general, makes me feel like the game is telling me, “caring about characters and story makes you a fool”. I hope that Brothership is going to have more emotional and triumphant moments that not a joke.

[@AurumAlex64]

Yep, Paper Jam feels very much infected by the "post-irony meta humor" trend that seemed very prevalent in the mid to late 2010s.

[@papermr.magolorguy7957]

@@AurumAlex64 Indeed. Maybe that’s why I like a lot of Nintendo games in general. They are sincere in the ways that no matter how absurd or silly something looks, a lot of Nintendo games do make an effort to show moments that are importantly and impactful. Also you earned yourself a sub! :3

[@lpfan4491]

Mario & Luigi Paper Jam and Sonic Colors shake hands at having stories that give players a reason not to play, rather than a reason for the player to care about the gameplay.

[@VerkatosEnsei]

Paper Jam was released at a time where it felt like it was, well, cringe to actually feel genuine emotions Everything must be ironic, everything must be said with a glance aside to the camera and a quip and an "erm" I feel like in recent years people are realizing just how sick and tired they are of stories and writing like that And that any writing that still carries these traits let's say, is rightfully mocked Not to say it can't still be done or anything, but it's definitely been OVER-done by this point

[@magicfishhobo381]

I think it's mostly in the delivery. Thousand Year Door and Superstar Saga both had jokes about how often Peach gets kidnapped, but they didn't look at the camera and go "I guess it's THAT point in the story!"

[@lrgogo1517]

14:04 Paper!Kamek spawning a bunch of giant cardboard “PlayStation glyphs” is actually a pretty freaking cool way to use the motifs of _Paper Mario_ and Magikoopas for a mere minor roadblock

[@squid_cake]

I wonder if the writing team was just burnt out after Dream Team. I heard that Dream Team was a doozy to develop for and cost a lot of money for the company.

[@AurumAlex64]

That's one of the impressions I got as well, but it also seems like they had a more ambitious plan for this game originally, which wasn't able to be implemented (for some reason we can only guess about).

[@RobotGuy405]

@@AurumAlex64 From what I've heard, they thought that only crossing over the mainline elements of the Mario series would be less overwhelming, or something like that. So we get Goomba's and Paper Goomba's, but no Fawful and Grotus. I don't remember where I heard this but I know it was a few years ago now.

[@uuytk]

​@@RobotGuy405But now I want to see Fawful and Grodus interract, this would be gold. Or Dark star bowser and shadow queen Peach

[@bm_burger]

I think this is a pretty refreshing critique on the game, coming at it from a different angle than what I've seen before. The apathy argument is strong, and knowing the state of AlphaDream in its final years, you can see how miserable and tired a lot of the staff was by the end. I wasn't sure at first about the lengthiness of the "everyone is mean to Luigi" bit, but thinking about it more I agree it is really uncomfortable. I think its so interesting how many things feel corrupted when the makers of a game don't care. What should be a grand adventure becomes a pointless endeavor, what should be fun combat becomes a tedious slog, and yeah what should be playful roasting becomes weird and cruel when all of the goodwill is removed. The game is so resigned to everything, and hates itself for it. Its truly a haunting look at the game, what an incredible analysis.

[@ElTaitronAnim]

"Sticker Star did it better" wasn't an argument I expected to hear, but here we are. Great video.

[@percher4824]

It's a good indicator of how bad things are.

[@boneafide]

so I got a fun story that I doubt anyone else can tell y’all about this game vs dream team from a very specific pov: the differences in how certain reviewers got the games, specifically ones with kids. So for context, my dad ran a small game review blog thing, focused mostly around Nintendo products. So sometimes, he would bring me and my brothers along to special events, because yknow, kids love video games and all that. Because of this, I got to play and own both Dream Team and Paper Jam early. For the dream team event, we went to a downtown skyscraper in a nearby city, where we took an elevator to an upper floor, and entered a fantastically themed meeting room. I’m talking food, a cutout board, even a guy dressed as Mario. When we got the games, they came with Free 3Ds’s, color coded green or red, with matching special stickers you could put on the back so that when you were playing the games, you would look like you have a Mario or Luigi moustache. The people running the event were genuinely enthusiastic and everyone had a great time, and it lasted for about an hour, enough time for me to get to the dunes area iirc. Now flash forward several years to the same kind of event, but for paper jam. Again, we go into an office building and take an ever stir to an upper floor. This time, the event is taking place in another meeting room, but instead of the fun decorations or anything of that sort, it’s just a normal board room, with a few reporters milling about. We once again get the games, and they come with NEW 3Ds XL’s, but instead of the fun and interesting colourful backs, it’s boring, bland, pure black, inside the same normal box you would find at a GameStop or Walmart at the time. And instead of the moustache stickers, we got some cheaply made papercraft models we could assemble. I don’t think I actually saw any of the other people there even touch them. I don’t think I saw the guy giving out the games and 3Ds’s interact with anyone after that, and the reporters felt tired and lifeless. It also only lasted long enough for me (who was essentially speedrunning the game with my additional skill of 7 years btw) to get to the end of the plains level. so to summarize, the dream team event was fun, personal and passionate, while the paper jam event felt corporate and sterile. If that doesn’t say something about the differences between these two games, I don’t know what does. Also that second 3Ds got stolen in high school from my locker, while I still have the first one, peeling sticker and all. clearly I was much more attached to one of them, lol.

[@AurumAlex64]

This was a great story. Thanks for sharing!

[@denpadolt9242]

Paper Jam's biggest narrative sin, IMO, is how immensely poorly it uses its own premise. Functionally, Peach and Paper Peach may as well be two copies (or perhaps two halves) of the same character. Nothing distinguishes the two other than Paper Peach being made of paper. The same goes for the Bowsers, the Bowser Jrs, the Kameks, and so on. Narratively, there may as well be only one Bowser, one Kamek, one Peach, etc, because at no point do any of them do anything to differentiate themselves from their counterpart - they never act independently of or against one another in any meaningful way. Hell, we may as well talk about "the Marios" as well, considering how much Paper Jam seems to believe that Luigi's just being dragged along for the ride. While we're at it, why not extend that logic to every paper character outright, since _not one_ of the paper characters in this entire game ever gets to stand independently from a non-paper version of themselves? Merge the Bowsers, the Bowser Jrs, the Peaches, the Kameks, the Toads, and the Marios together, and all you lose is the banter between the paper and non-paper versions of each character... and the idea that Paper Jam's story is anything more than a generic Mario storyline with a skeleton made of plot contrivances and literal paper skin.

[@Joey-nc5cf]

I would’ve been completely ok with the 2 peaches, bowsers, bowser jrs, kameks, etc. being basically the same character if they actually gave some nuance. The scenes of the 2 peaches locked up talking about their life being so routine could’ve sparked an interesting motivation to keep everyone’s paper versions within the world and not send them home. Or the kamek’s and bowser jrs fighting over what to do with the book etc. I also would’ve liked if each half (normal and paper) showed a different side of said character. Maybe 1 bowser jr showing his playfulness while the other showing his childishness. Idk I feel like paper jam had so much potential

[@supermariohack3218]

8:23 Funnily enough, in the japanese version as well as some other translations of Paper Jam, they at least attempted to give the areas SOME general theming by giving them all names that all references the Paper-Doppelganger plot of Paper Jam. For example, Mt. Brrr is called "Mirror Image Mountain" in the german version and Sunbeam Plains is called "Pair Plains" in the japanese and portuguese version. So yeah, no idea what happend with the english version. Either they didn't give a fuck about the theming or they knew that give the areas themed names would save them from being generic as fuck.

[@SuperWiiBros08]

It almost sounds like you're saying Paper Jam is so bad it makes Sticker Star look good

[@BossBoss-ym5nr]

Ayeee superwiibros whatcha doin here bud? I just got done watching a Joel video you edited before I watched this video 😂

[@AurumAlex64]

I mean, that's not *not* what I'm saying....

[@mythosinfinite6736]

I wouldn't ever say that. that's borderline a slur. at least Paper Jam has playable gameplay a non-alien can enjoy, if nothing else.

[@BrendanJSmith]

Let's not say things we can't take back.

[@theivoryguy2476]

He had ALMOST convinced me, but I thought about jt again for 2 seconds and just realized it's only Near the same level of SS.

[@mastermewtwo5503]

I think Paper Jam's version of the "giant battles" was another thing that fell short. Bowser's Inside Story, Bowser literally dies from crushing then becomes giant to take revenge and put the boss in its place to debut the idea of big people fighting. Dream Team has Luigi grow with the dream powers to subdue the enemy that's otherwise terrifying him, and the touch screen's the most iconic part. Papercraft Battles... You're riding an oversized cardboard figure to bash other oversized cardboard figures. They're not any sort of threat, and I'm not aware of why they even feel the need to do this. Just like, kick a green shell on the little dudes carrying the things. There's not even any engaging controls aside from dashing and throwing your Papercraft into things, which consumes energy recharged by a rhythm minigame for some reason.

[@AurumAlex64]

Yeah, the Papercraft Battles... exist. Which pretty much describes most of the game. Definitely agree they are not fun to control.

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

It's literally just something they wanted to do to be "different" from giant battles, only you also need to be good as well.

[@noclevername1]

You know, the way AA talks about Paper Jam here and the way Chugga talked about Sticker Star on his channel, it made me realize: what if someone modded Paper Jam to be more like Sticker Star? It would keep the RPG elements that people want with the crazy elements that SS was going for

[@mredbadger]

The two Peaches complaining about how boring and routine their lives are is so awkward In the first M&L game, she ruins Cackletta’s plan by being 2 steps ahead. Then when she’s kidnapped, she swaps places with Luigi in drag. The very first game in the series knew the “peach gets kidnapped” trope was boring, so it subverted it. Twice. And often when she is kidnapped in the RPGs, it’s because she was doing something heroic like in PiT, or she spends her time sneaking around the villains’ backs to get intel to Mario. Or she’s just straight-up playable and never gets kidnapped Obv not every Mario RPG has done something new with her, but it’s wild to play the trope straighter then any other game in the series, then be like “hey guys isn’t this trope boring?”

[@AurumAlex64]

That's really the killer. The problem isn't so much that it's a "Bowser-kidnaps-Peach" plot, because if that were the issue, everyone would be getting on Paper Mario 64's case. But the original Paper Mario actually executes the plot earnestly, and does it really well with loads of personality and memorable moments, and that's why everyone loves it. Paper Jam just admits that its tired and cliché and then... half-assess it with a bunch of dropped storylines. That's not really a respectable decision at all.

[@Jacob_G9]

Or when it's played Straight, like in Bowser's Inside Story, it's because there would be no way to EVER predict it could happen, fawful manages to grab her from inside Bowser, what normal person would expect that?

[@xxhaxonxx8345]

Yeah, the game keeps complaining about these "overused tropes" and then proceeds to just... still do them. "Yeah, we're self aware that this is tiring, boring and repetitive. We ain't doing anything interesting to twist the situation into a fun and unexpected way, but at least you know we get your feelings" They just ignore the best parts of both rpg's series, then complains about the boring tropes just to redo them anyways, it's like the mildest crossover ever

[@Jdudec367]

Heck even in Dream Team when she IS kidnapped she still manages to help in some way.

[@toledochristianmatthew9919]

​@@Jdudec367it was her and starlow that managed to defeat Bowser first before the final fight and managed to destroy the Dream Stone.

[@linus6718]

Imagine if this game actually combined the original Paper Mario's mushroom kingdom with M&L's. There was so much damn potential in this crossover, imagine the original partners helping out in battle. We could've had Merlon, Kammy Koopa, the star spirits, literally anyone. Who was supposed to be hyped for this game if they threw away like 90% of both series' source material?

[@siyahseeker]

I really, REALLY hope that Mario and Luigi: Brothership ditches the “Luigi abuse” trope. The game is all about working together, and Starlow doesn’t seem to be making an appearance, so no more roasts from her… And, I have confidence that the humor and writing is going to harken back to the style from the first four games (Superstar Saga, Partners in Time, Bowser’s Inside Story, Dream Team). That would be a treat.

[@ddchrw]

From the trailer alone, Luigi’s still going to be the less competent brother with mild bits of “Luigi abuse”. He faceplants from the cannon launch while Mario tucks and rolls. Luigi does seem to have those “L ideas” where he’s used to solve puzzles. Probably like the Dream Team Luiginary/dream world sections?

[@ScorbunGame]

@@ddchrw Well part of Luigi's characterization has always been that he's scatterbrained and clumsy which is perfectly fine to rib on. The issue is when he's mocked CONSTENTLY by the world around him.

[@ddchrw]

@@ScorbunGame Yeah, and it’s up to interpretation in stuff like the bees chasing him off the cliff is the world mocking him or not.

[@AurumAlex64]

To be clear, I don't think it's a problem for the games to do a little teasing of Luigi. He's a goofy character, and that's fine. The problem with Paper Jam is that it is incessant and cruel. The jokes aren't Luigi being a goofball, they're jokes about how everyone is right to think Luigi is incompetent, something the game really never pushes back on. There's never a significant moment where Luigi gets to shine. When making fun of someone, there's a realm of good taste that I think Paper Jam evidently crosses.

[@DarkAura19]

Luigi being the butt of the joke is something I don't think the M&L games are ever going to abandon, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Paper Jam just takes it way too far and makes it the ONLY thing Luigi is known for. I will never forgive Paper Jam doing him so dirty after having his best moment as a character EVER than when he stared down a giant Bowser with Mario, swallowed his fear and just... smugly smiled. God I had the biggest grin myself. But that also doesn't mean Luigi should be free of deprication. Because it is funny in bursts, AND makes moments like in Dream Team all the more satisfying.

[@sinnythefennec69]

35:21 I just find it really funny that this somber moment is screwed over with one of the Bowser Jrs. having brainrot. The Game Peaks here.

[@subekyuuke]

do you think bowser jr watches skibidi toilet and lankybox

[@sinnythefennec69]

@@subekyuuke I guess both

[@leightonpetty4817]

@@subekyuukeThat is canon beyond canon

[@LuznoLindo]

​@@subekyuuke He definitely would if he were real.

[@Gamblegork]

It's stinky garbage time!

[@jeremyknight9980]

23:56 Wow, I never knew this game was so mean to Luigi, it sounds like this was written by people who make those Mario fan animations where either everyone hates Luigi, Mario and luigi hate each other or luigi hates Mario for getting all the fame. Luigi isn't a helpless, bumbling narc that Mario has to put up with, he genuinely pitches in and helps save the day, the Paper Mario series never did him like this.

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

I think it also just isn't consistent with the rest of the series. Sure, there were jokes about Luigi, but he was also always treated with respect and seen as an equal to Mario, and the ones who hate him are usually villain or asshole characters who are meant to be unlikeable. Having protagonist characters like the Toads and Starlow, who usually would look at Luigi highly, acting like he's some dumb buffoon, with no moments for him to do anything really sells the problems this game has with its "humor."

[@thedeadmen6762]

​@@UltraNintendoChalmers64 Not only that, but also when much nicer characters like Peach and Toadette were uncharacteristically surly towards Luigi really drives that point home. When usually those two are portrayed as being passive-aggressive at their worst, seeing them throw a barely disguised insult at Luigi so abruptly understandably feels wrong.

[@DeltaBlazin]

They could have called Bowser's new castle "Papercraft Bowser Castle" it was RIGHT there!

[@nickk3077]

I don't like how this game sees the Paper Mario franchise as this "lesser" sort of game series because the entire world is made of paper. Sure, Sticker Star started that notion, but Paper Jam basically solidified it, which is highly insulting to everyone who was inspired by or invested in the first 3 Paper Mario games in capacity. I don't even think the devs of the modern 3 Paper Mario games believe that the world they crafted has any lesser value even though it is all paper, especially when you see some of the work they did in Origami King (and Color Splash). How have these series which at one point seemed to have mutual respect for one another by referencing a few elements from each other turn out so one-sided? This has to be hands down one of the worst crossovers in history because not only does it underutilize what its "referencing", but also doesn't seem to respect it.

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

Pretty much, Nintendo pretended the 1st 3 games don't exist and that's because a female goomba with a ponytail wasn't brand friendly enough, I guess.

[@redsunreptile]

As someone who skipped this game but has been replaying Dream Team (i.e. actually finishing it because I never did back then) due to the Brothership hype, seeing what it's really like is just. Heartbreaking. It's a slog of a game with weak story *and* it's needlessly cruel? Absolutely painful. I'm glad I got recc'd this video! Here's hoping Brothership takes more cues from Dream Team to really shine (which it seems like it is!).

[@Oh-Ben]

A major problem, AlphaDream lost alot of their team during and after Dream Team. It explains why Paper Jam was so scaled back and nothing was constant.

[@nicholasmair5935]

Your intro hit my heavily. I literally had the thought “wouldn’t it be more fun to replay dream team” while slogging through paper jam just last night.

[@theivoryguy2476]

Im so glad someone finally put into words why this game is just so draining. Got some dream team appreciation in here as well. Thank you.

[@AurumAlex64]

There will always be some room for Dream Team appreciation on this channel

[@kwisowofer9872]

As one of the few Sticker Star fans, appreciation of any kind for that game was also very refreshing

[@platinum-or3y]

@@kwisowofer9872The doctors have issued an order for you to be studied

[@FindingsOfAnArmouredMind]

they drained your bank account when you decided to buy it

[@georgeg9779]

@@AurumAlex64 My favourite M&L game, happy to finally find a channel that appreciates that gem

[@waltercardcollector]

You know what's really weird? In Paper Jam, the "real" characters are animated by 2D sprites, and the "paper" characters are animated by 3D models. Think about that for a moment.

[@colfdralegend]

Um… yeah?

[@arcturus1231]

I guess that actually makes sense, since they do the "The flat character turned sideways!" Bit so much with the Paper characters

[@Reptonious]

"Neat". What a tedious comment.

[@toomanydum4084]

neat!

[@wubproductions9755]

thats pretty neat!

[@saf_Safira]

The Luigi shade was NOT fucking necessary.

[@Rvchnoob51]

TRUEEEEEE. This game is the reason i hate starlow.

[@ethanc.8683]

Honestly if Paper Luigi did made it in Paper Jam instead of getting scrapped I feel like it would completely change the whole picking on Luigi thing less mean-spirited since there are 2 Bros each and Luigi wouldn't be left out and since Paper Luigi can talk it would change everything

[@crowstreaming]

The funniest thing about paper jam is that it’s named after a thing that’s annoying and wastes your time. Kinda fitting honestly. Edit: Okay never mind he made the joke I’m the video, oops.

[@lrgogo1517]

Bro, he... he made that joke in the video

[@crowstreaming]

@@lrgogo1517 and i made the joke before I saw that part

[@SillierPutty]

YOU'RE THE VIDEO???

[@Kirbyster]

I really disagree with your assertation that the Nabbit chase in Neo Bowser Castle is an unwarranted roadblock, I'm pretty sure that it is optional but also I found it to be one of the few storytelling moments in the game that actually had soul. Him intermittently joining forces with Mario and Luigi to do his baddie bros shell attack against Bowser's enemies, and eventually transitioning from fleeing from the bros to playing with them was really cute and honestly felt like one of the best executed examples of wordless storytelling in a Mario game. I also really liked the personality that some of the Koopalings (especially Roy and Wendy) showed in their battles, exhibiting a sibling rivalry that I haven't seen in any of their other appearances. You are right one-million percent though about essentially everything else in the game being dreadfully boring. The sterility of the Mushroom Kingdom in this game is distractingly apparent. Calling the game self-deprecating is a very good way of describing it. That scene you showed on screen where the green toad is being held by the Paper Petey Piranha, and you are meant to skip his dialogue with R because he is comically long winded, left me jaw dropped at the nerve the game has to try and make that joke when it so frequently makes the player waste time getting around arbitrary road blocks and collecting paper toads, in addition to other NPCs that are similarly long winded but in an unironic way. I do also think that the game deserves some more respect for its combat though. Deckbuilding in a Mario RPG feels like a creative yet logical advancement on the badge systems in Dream Team and TTYD and it made the combat so much more enjoyable and raised the skill ceiling. I also really think that the enemy attack patterns are the best they have ever been in this series. I was grossly underleveled in this game, but the combats were still extremely engaging, which is not something I can say about Partners in Time or Superstar Saga. Those games feature boss fights that, if you went in underleveled, were very dull in their second half since the attack patterns--once you learn them--are so easy to dodge successfully that your eventual victory is already all but guaranteed, and you just have to keep throwing out the same special attacks to chip their HP down to 0. Paper Jam avoids this trap with increased character customization options, more interesting attack patterns, and the addition of Paper Mario--who fundamentally changes the way that you can dodge attacks. In all of the other games you can press A + B simultaneously to dodge basically any attack with very little thought and without being punished, but Paper Mario doesn't allow that since it is impractical to press A + B + Y simultaneously during each enemy attack, which forces you to be more engaged with each battle. I personally really value the battle systems in these games, so the excellent system and its application present in Paper Jam easily gets it to clear Dream Team in my eyes. If you value the story and worldbuilding elements more though I can totally see why you would prefer that game over this one. Great video btw! Everything is laid out and explained really well, I even brought it off my second monitor and onto my main one midway through the video because you did such a good job keeping the topic interesting.

[@AurumAlex64]

Thanks! I will absolutely admit I have a bias in favor of story and worldbuilding over gameplay. If you give me a fun story, I'll be more than willing to slog through some uncompelling gameplay. I think my issue with the Nabbit chase is that it feels way too long. In my recording, it lasts about 27 minutes, which really feels unnecessary for what is an already overstuffed final area. But I do like the little details you pointed out, and agree with the Koopalings as well. I love the Ludwig/Larry fights. Edit: Oh, also, I forgot, they do the hold down R joke multiple times in the game; when the Toad in Peach's Castle talks about finding out the Peaches are in Mt. Brrr, he starts off: "Please listen carefully. None of this fast-forwarding business, OK?"

[@السراقالمجهول]

any other appearance ? try bower minions and bowser jr journey

[@Jdudec367]

@@AurumAlex64 I never played Paper Jam but now it reminds me of the chase for Kamek in Dream Team lol.

[@dustymcwari4468]

Yeah, Paper Jam at least got the combat very right, so there's at least something you can look forward to when playing it or going back to it, while Sticker Star, the stuff mentioned in the video sounds neat on paper, but none change the fact most of the game is either a very boring or annoying experience tbh, especially on repeated playthroughs

[@Jdudec367]

@@dustymcwari4468 Exactly, I would say it does gameplay overall pretty well for the most part.

[@morp4212]

the part where you asked if boring was worse than bad reminded me of that experiment where people were put in an empty room with nothing except a button that shocks them and people pressed the button cause pain was better than boredom

[@randomatorPHD]

I played the first hour of paper jam and had to put it down. If the other games were like a hearty meal, this is one was like eating a literal sheet of paper. Sure you could do it, but why would you?

[@ElijahPykiet]

I bought Bowser’s Inside Story when it got rereleased, I had wanted to play that game more than any other Mario game growing up. I was absolutely blown away, so I immediately bought Dream Team, and following that, (even though I remembered pegging it as a stinker from the trailers,) Paper Jam. I instantly picked up on the vast emptiness and road blockiness of it all. The completely vapid storytelling. It feels like there’s nothing there. Not to mention that empty X button. I feel like Paper Luigi’s loud, sarcastic, bombastic personality would’ve been great to bounce off AlphaDream Luigi. Or maybe even a select few Paper partners to incorporate a little more Paper Mario into the battle system, and break up that roadblocky feeling in the overworld.

[@gooeydude574]

On an unrelated note, isn’t it weird that Wario has never appeared in a Mario RPG in any way shape or form?

[@mariobroultimate1808]

He was gonna make a cameo in Superstar Saga, but it was cut. Do you count the W badge in TTYD?

[@gooeydude574]

@@mariobroultimate1808 no, an outfit with Wario’s colors is not Wario

[@mariobroultimate1808]

@@gooeydude574 It's still a reference to him.

[@MarioSonic46]

@@mariobroultimate1808 Reference is nice and all, but him actually being there makes an impact on the game.

[@CDSCRATCH10]

Bwario and bwaluigi

[@63chicago6]

This game is always weirdly overlooked imo, such a strange little blip in the mario universe. This was a fantastic breakdown about what makes it not work. I personally have a soft spot for this game but i think you're spot on with why the game is generally bland and uninteresting. A crossover between M&L and Paper Mario should have been a dream come true, but sadly it turned out to be the most boring game in both franchises. At least Sticker Star was more of a spectacular failure than a bland forgettable mess.

[@Jdudec367]

It failed as a story and as a crossover, still though as a actual game it at least succeeds there for the most part while that is one of Sticker Star's biggest failings.

[@Charnutboy]

Sticker Star was a swing and a miss. Paper Jam didn't even bother swinging and just walked away

[@Pyrple]

35:50 Here you make a point about a sin of game design (and all entertainment): making the player the ass of the joke. It makes us realize a difference in ways that a piece of entertainment can make fun of its audience. Most games do this by poking fun at the players' implied personalities or beliefs. Super Paper Mario famously did such with the entire character of Francis. Francis is a creepy otaku gamer that represents the player, and the negative connotation of gamers as a whole. The jokes aimed at him are cathartic because Francis is the villain, and deserves the insults the game throws at him. Making fun of the player through Francis is making fun of the player for reasons they deserve. Because gamers do deserve to be made fun of for their stereotypical behavior. But even then, the player doesn't deserve to be made fun of just for playing the game, right? This is what happened in the two worst levels of Super Paper Mario. 2-3, the level in which Mario is put in debt and has to pay off 1,000,000 rubies by having the player hit blocks hundreds of times, and 5-3, in which archeologist Flint Cragley sends you down and makes you backtrack through a cave multiple times to find a key that he had on him the entire time. It was these levels that showed the first emergence of the Sticker Star / Paper Jam poison happened earlier than most remember. In 2-3 and 5-3 however, the game insults Mario, a character who does nothing wrong to deserve it, solely to insult the player controlling him by wasting their time. Mario has done nothing wrong other than try to help, as likewise the player has done nothing wrong other than try to have fun playing the game. It's one of few times that a game is actively mean to the player, and it's not surprising it happened again in Paper Jam.

[@AurumAlex64]

I think making jokes at the expense of the player can be a tricky thing. Super is a great example that straddles the line often. I agree with Francis being a positive example of making fun of the player. You also bring up 5-3 in Super, but I would argue 5-1 has maybe the most egregious example, which sees you backtrack to the beginning of the stage to type "Please" multiple times to an NPC so he can give you an overly long code that you need to input in at the end of the stage. Not good.

[@Loner098]

For 2-3, if you know the pass code to the safe upstairs, then it basically invalidates the need to actually work your butt off on the mansion's power plant for 1000000 rubees.

[@Mauripsu]

I feel bad for Luigi now. One thing is poking fun and then admitting he's as capable as his brother, which he is, and another thing is straight up calling him useless despite all his achievements and evolution.

[@Monafide3305]

Sticker Star is absolutely the worst of the two games in my eyes and it isn't even close, but you make a good point in that it at least has a lot more 'going on' than Paper Jam. Paper Jam is actually a pretty fun game with funny writing, it's just presented in the most boring setting and alongside the most uninteresting story they could possibly create. Sticker Star's gameplay is genuinely painful, and is only slightly redeemed with a strong presentation and a few memorable moments. I don't remember any event that took place in Paper Jam.

[@dustymcwari4468]

Personally I consider Sticker Star the more boring of the two because at least Paper Jam's combat is very solid, some argue it may be the best in the series, so Paper Jam does legit have something to go back to, as opposed to Sticker Star where the few things mentioned it has going for, they're ultimately not there the whole game, some are just lil sparks at best, and most of it isn't as interesting or exciting when actually playing them

[@AbeM.]

The combat mechanics aren’t all that different between both games.

[@dustymcwari4468]

@@AbeM. They're though

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

I think his point was that while Sticker Star is the worse game, it at least tried.

[@Mario17h1]

I still say that Paper Jam nailed the battles and enemy patterns. Don’t think any other game is as difficult in normal battles than Paper Jam from having to keep an eye on 3 characters instead of normal two.

[@SuperFeatherYoshi]

I looked it up, the Twinsy Tropics theme is called "波打ち際の物語" in the Japanese version, which translates to something like "The Story of the Shore". This makes me wonder just how much of the game's problem stems from translation. Were all of those jabs at Luigi in the original? Edit: The location names all seem to be themed after "look-alikes" in the original. Pair Plains, 50-50 Desert, Overlap Forest, Mount Look-alike. These were all lost in translation to English.

[@AurumAlex64]

Thank you for sharing this. That song title makes way more sense. And so do the area names. I really don't understand what was going on with the English translation

[@thedailybrowser5951]

Imma be honest, the only part I liked in Paper Jam was the part where Wendy beat the everloving HELL out of Roy.

[@AurumAlex64]

The Koopalings are a highlight of the game for sure.

[@bea_chan]

I do wanna say that Paper Jam did try to have a location name theme in Japanese (said being mirror images and duplicates) but it was unfortunately lost in translation. The way I see how you've framed this, Paper Jam is essentially everything Sticker Star got wrong story-wise, multiplied tenfold and pasted onto Mario and Luigi for a chronically uninteresting experience that just leaves a bitter nothing taste in one's mouth.

[@Jdudec367]

It really isn't, Sticker Star has has the worst plot and you know what Paper Jam didn't get wrong that Sticker Star got wrong arguably the most? The gameplay and exploration and puzzles and stuff, seriously look at Chuggaconroy's review the game feels like they were trying to make a game as tedious and boring and unfun as possible.

[@dustymcwari4468]

One thing the game got over Sticker Star is the battle system, which is what salvages the game, though barely because everything else is lackluster as heck, makes for a mediocre adventure before the fights

[@GuyWithThePie]

Huh, you're right. The only one that got really got properly localized to English was Twinsy Tropics. And I'm guessing Doop Doop Dunes was meant to be "Dupe Dupe Dunes", but a misunderstanding made it that nonsense word instead. (I doubt it was meant to be an intentional reference to Doopliss)

[@Loner098]

No matter how boring Paper Jam got everyone, the combat will always put it over Sticker Star for me.

[@mariomaster4568]

God having played Brothership, its depiction of Luigi is FAR more in line with Dream Teams depiction of Luigi as someone who goes through an entire arc of being cowardly to being a truly brave person when nobody else could help. Seriously he’s got his good moments that ARE ACTUALLY good and not just laced with “look at that dumbass Luigi, so scared”

[@antonywu6672]

God, the beginning hit me hard because of how true it was. After a sudden nostalgia trip and playing Dream Team after who knows how long, jumping into Paper Jam was a whiplash, jumping from something bright, diverse, and awesome to something… dull, repeated, and… a bit less awesome. Veering off a bit, although I would often play Paper Jam at night, I would find myself yawning as well even when just traveling around the map. I feel like the reason why the Dash Socks were introduced was *because* of how more open spaced everywhere was. (Oop, I just made it to the point where he also points that out in the video but thank you for reading my ramble lol)

[@rock9154]

I'm very glad to know it wasn't my fault for never finishing this game. I loved Bowser's Inside Story & Dream Team so much, and I wanted the new game to be good so bad that I forced myself to play through half of it before I couldn't continue

[@robertlauncher]

“Who, let’s face it, is… Luigi.” Wow I never thought I’d see a game where Peach actively shows resentment for one of the main duo responsible for her rescue. Ouch

[@ScorbunGame]

From what I've seen this game utterly fails to capture the charm of both Paper Mario and M&L and as a result ends up being a big pile of nothing. Thank god we have the TRYD remake and Brothership now.

[@kevinsmith163]

And also Super Mario RPG Remake.

[@fawfulthegreat64]

THANK YOU. You actually got me questioning whether I actually prefer Sticker Star over Paper Jam, and I despise Sticker Star. I still am not inclined to believe the sanitization was due to needing to reuse assets though. There are MANY examples where they had to make a brand new asset to insert a random mainline character with no prior history in the series, where they could have reused an asset from Dream Team to at least have some of M&L's original characters show up. The only case where they did this was Starlow. They weren't interested in reusing sprites of Popple even though it would've been nice to see him back. But Nabbit was worth making new sprites for. DT had basic NPC sprites for many species that could have populated the land (and no, just because it's the Mushroom Kingdom doesn't mean it has to be only Toads, heck the Brock species ORIGINATED in BIS which took place in the Mushroom Kingdom). Heck even the sprites of the main cast, who WERE in Dream Team, aren't reused from it. PJ takes place at a slightly different angle meaning they all have new sprites to fit that angle. Bowser is the most noticeable, but Mario and Luigi also are at a more frontal angle, closer to their Dream World sprites from DT but not quite that head-on. This game was not cutting corners in terms of making new sprites. It also wouldn't have been any issue at all asset-wise to reuse sprites from PM:TTYD and SPM, they use the same sprite style as Sticker Star and would only have needed to be downscaled. Why are we randomly fighting King Boo and King Bob-Omb instead of oh idk, Doopliss and the Elite Trio? Heck King Boo's segment features a lot of ghosts transforming into other characters, THAT'S DOOPLISS'S THING. And if Bowser's the main villain where the heck are his three goofball minions that DT established as recurring members of his army and are literally IN the final scene with him?! The only reason I can think of for not using them is because they'd clash with the more basic vanilla take on the Mario world, which again had no reason to be used in the first place. This isn't a crossover between NSMBWii and NSMBU with a side of miscellaneous 3D Mario characters. It's a crossover between Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario, yet it seems more interested in aiming for the former character-wise. TL;DR: They could have made this a love-letter to the legacy of both series with ample usage of their original characters, while creating LESS new character sprites than they did for this game. The 2010s was an era where it was painfully obvious the Mario IP was under tight regulation, but we didn't fully understand the nature of it until Origami King's interviews, at which point it was coming to an end anyway. They probably didn't want us knowing about the nature of the restrictions in 2015, we were already complaining enough without that knowledge. So I still think there's more to the story than the excuse they gave in that interview. DT's development simply started early enough that it got away with a lot more.

[@jzb4312]

We actually know dream team started dev in 2010 as the devs said it took 3 years where as sticker star started in 2009(someome said it in the iwata asks on sticker star) I do feel the truth about paper marios oc restrictions will never fully be known as its not just dreAm team that had them and modofied stuff during the mostly generic mario time of 2011-2016. The 2 yoshi games released then also did. Toad restrictions apply to all stuff theres no denying that same with giving mario species hair or making new “king/boss” versions of them but only paper mario had the no ocs in the mario style thing going on and is still that way today as stuff like tennis aces and super rush have both ocs and modified stuff like the ice hand based on the mario 64 boss.

[@AurumAlex64]

These are all good points, and there's probably more to the story than what these interviews have laid out, but I still do think budgetary/time constraints did play a part. Paper Jam just feels like a noticeably sloppier game than its predecessors, not just in terms of dropped storylines, but also in how glitchy the game is (See the Son of a Glitch video for some good examples). It just seems to me like development on this game didn't go as smoothly as was planned, leading to relatively unpolished game for Mario standards. I think it was just easier to slot in generic Mario mainstays like King Boo than to try and figure out how to slot in unique characters like Doopliss and Fawful in a way that made sense. But I really don't have an explanation for not reusing more from Dream Team.

[@jzb4312]

The game was seemingly made in a year and a half at max as well thats less than even partners in time took to make going by how much time was between it and dream teams japansese release dates.

[@mrman2476]

It's stinky garbage time! It's stinky garbage time!

[@AurumAlex64]

Truly peak writing

[@seasonembrace3624]

Would have been better if it was Waluigi Time.

[@mrman2476]

@@seasonembrace3624 It's WALUIGI time! It's WALUIGI time!

[@soop6866]

Perfectly describes this game

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

Feels like the game is self aware about itself.

[@pikariocraftf2802]

When I first played Paper Jam I thought it was too short, not in playtime, just... it felt like the story was about to finally pick up a little and then it ended. I didn't even care about how long I had been playing for, I was totally ready to go into the book and see what the "second half" had to offer, but nope, that was it. It left me sincerely unfullfilled and I haven't replayed it since. Here's to Brotherhood being Brothergood.

[@psigreen3864]

as opposed to brothership being brothershit?

[@pikariocraftf2802]

@@psigreen3864 Yeah, could go either way but from what I've seen so far its a lot more coherent than Paper Jam, but we'll just have to wait and see-

[@psigreen3864]

@@pikariocraftf2802 im incredibly hyped for it

[@DarkAura19]

While I completely agree with most of your points in this video (and am SO beyond happy to see someone talking so positively about Dream Team, seriously besides the tutorial I cannot fathom the vitriol that game gets) I'm not sure if I can totally agree with calling it a worse game than Sticker Star. Normally I'm in the same camp as you, genuinely. I think being boring is worse than being bad. It's a reason that, say, I dislike Shadow the Hedgehog more than I do Sonic 06. So I completely get where you're coming from with that angle. The only problem for me is, like you said, battle wise Paper Jam is mostly sound and arguably some of the most fun mechanically in the series. So that's at least some very, very scarce moments where I can at least say I'm having some fun with it. Meanwhile, Sticker Star is actively being literally mean to the player of the game itself both in AND out of battle with the horrendous Thing sticker nonsense and some genuinely unfun but totally intentntional trolling. While Sticker Star definitely feels like it tries to have more heart in these generic Mario environments than Paper Jam ever would, that's honestly what makes it even MORE frustrating for me. With Paper Jam I at least know what I'm getting into - it's NSMB environments that are just a means to an end. Meanwhile Sticker Star feels like it's constantly reminding you that it CAN put more effort in, it CAN have more interesting things going on, but it will ultimately always fall back to the troped, safe Mario setting we have all grown numb to. That certainly isn't to say it's still better and more engaging than Paper Jam, but at least I still feel like I'm playing an RPG with Paper Jam. I'm getting experience, leveling up, earning genuine new abilities as time goes on that aren't some one time limited use resource meant to literally roadblock you. It just feels like a better game. But obviously that's just my own take. And Paper Jam is still ass, lol. Fantastic video, I'll definitely be sticking around for more and checking your other stuff. ❤

[@AurumAlex64]

Yeah, I can definitely see that. Like I say in the video, the "being mean to the player" is definitely not a critique unique to just Paper Jam. I think maybe people got the wrong impression from this video thinking I'm, like, Sticker Star's biggest defender. I really don't think it's all that great of a game, but I have slightly more respect for it than I do Paper Jam.

[@genyakozlov1316]

Disliking either Sonic 06 or especially Shadow the Hedgehog just means you don't have anything of value to say on art in general, especially if you like Sonic Heroes, a game worse than Shadow the hedgehog in every way which also has all the same problems, yet because no one shoots a gun or drives a bike people think it's actually better somehow. I grew up on Shadow the hedgehog, and it still proudly stands as a golden standard of what a great video game should be, especially in terms of atmosphere. Don't you dare besmirch that name ever again, you utter fool. Go play Sonic Mania if actual art is too much for you. Leave it to people with refined tastes. I'm only halfway joking, maybe even less. I hate Mania, genuinely.

[@DarkAura19]

​@AurumAlex64 I can totally see the perspective on that, I definitely never took it as you defending SS, just pointing out how it still had far more going on with it than Paper Jam at the least. Which is does, that can't be denied.

[@terrycore]

won’t lie its CRAZY to watch chuggaaconroy’s whole series about sticker star and have a video that shows up thats actually like. “Here’s a worse game with tangibly worse writing that i’m going to directly compare to sticker star to show how sticker star did certain things better”. WOW did not think it could get that low

[@JB-bc2ry]

I couldn't 100% finish Paper Jam cause of many of the reasons you listed, but I will say that the combat is still extremely good, and tied with BIS it has my favorite standard boss theme in the M&L series (Big Bang slaps so hard honestly; also the Dry Bowser secret boss is incredible!)

[@lucylu3342]

I find it very funny that THE MOMENT the Mario and Luigi series comes into contact with Modern Paper Mario, they get their worst game yet. Paper Mario after Sticker Star was literally a poison lol

[@ProjectionProjects2.7182]

Yeah I know its another reason to hate Sticker Star lol.

[@diogoduarte8008]

They could have made so much funnier just by making one bowser constantly trying to betray the other without both realizing that they are trying to do the same thing with one another meanwhile both bowsers Jr became closer and closer ending with the kids ditching their father's and becoming the final boss. You could even make a plot point about bowser learning to trust other or his paper self

[@saf_Safira]

So glad paper Luigi did not have to endure this game

[@HumbleTeller]

I'll give Sticker Star this, at least I was able to finish the game. Paper Jam feels so empty in comparison. You had Decalburg, the Yoshi Sphinx, boo mansion, wiggler's poison woods. Areas that I can still remember even after years. Paper Jam just feels like Mario and Luigi on autopilot

[@seekingcastles]

Genuinely glad to see somebody finally acknowledging the positive qualities of Paper Mario: Sticker Star. Your other points were very well composed. I definitely agree this game feels like a strange misunderstanding of why these Mario RPGs even exist in the first place. Thanks for this great video!

[@internetguy7319]

Most of this shit is bullshit if you analyze it for like 5 seconds Like, mcguffin stories are designed in order to make you find different locations and peoples, so that the characters have to explore the full world, but then in Sticker Star there is literally a single town and very few characters, cultures, unique locations to explore

[@internetguy7319]

TTYD did this right: It is a mcguffin plot! But every mcguffin is behind an entirely new town, tons of new characters, often entirely different cultures, and so it feels good. In Sticker Star, you get at best, what? One new character? An area that sounds cool on paper for a dungeon, but ends up feeling dull? At least Paper Jam has gameplay!

[@MySnugglePuppy]

@@internetguy7319 We know, people just act like sticker Star is 100% awful when it’s closer to 80%-90% awful. It’s bad, but not irredeemable, especially if Red’s “Paper Mario and the Sticker Comet” what-if means anything.

[@thedoc3727]

Man, I forgot that Starlow sounds like Beldam half the time she's talking to Luigi

[@chifii]

This game would have been so much more tolerable if the Bowsers were actually doing something to the world. Imagine if instead of dropping cardboard onto the map for no reason other than to slow your progress, they were trying to terraform the Mushroom Kingdom or something. But nope, instead the game goes for the same crutch that was a trope by the time of the first Paper Mario game.

[@howard7318]

The game and characters seem to make fun of Luigi to feel better about themselves/make themselves feel cool. It really doesn't make them look cool, it makes them insecure losers. Especially Starlow.

[@Crusty783]

The absence of the Bonus Points system is what ruined Paper Jam for me. The entire Mario and Luigi gameplay loop feels totally empty without it. EDIT: Jesus I forgot how mean spirited this game was lol💀💀

[@TheBrixHub]

Crusty cameo Crusty cameo

[@Crusty783]

@@TheBrixHubAmigop cameo!!!

[@UltraNintendoChalmers64]

To be honest, even if it does limit customizability, it isn't close to the worst issue with Paper Jam.

[@elijahkeay3906]

I really appreciate the Luigi defence in this video! Luigi’s always been the butt of many jokes in this franchise, but part of the charm of it for me has always been that it is Mario AND Luigi. You normally never get the sense that either of them could succeed in the adventure without each other, and that through it all they really do love and care about one another. From little interactions to things like how they pick each other up when one gets downed in a battle it makes for some really fun and unique moments unlike what you would find in any other Mario franchise.

[@buzzytrombone4353]

This video summed up my feelings about this game perfectly. I still remember spending two years of my life writing articles on a fan made game wiki, depicting an alternate version of what I wanted the game to be, characters from the first four Mario & Luigi games existing, Paper Luigi being a playable character, a story that follows the rules of "This happened, BUT this happened and THEREFORE this happened". Thinking back to those days still makes my skin crawl, especially when I think about the fact that I was fourteen when the game came out and I was having a go at a 25 year old autistic man on the internet who kept harassing me over me not liking the game. Seeing the reveal trailer for Mario & Luigi: Brothership felt like a shot of serotonin that I was waiting to get, for nearly a decade of being a bitter bastard towards different people on the internet and I will most certainly be giving it a go because it feels like they were picking up from where they left off from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team when it came to having an atmosphere that oozed with artistic merit, which I would argue was the most gorgeous looking game in the series at that point apart from the second game. That said however, one thing that I hope that they borrow from this game when it comes to the battle system is the Battle Cards as they acted as something to protect the player with more than one effect on the go. Also I'd like to point out that the Japanese version of the game has names for the locations that reflect on the theme of doubleness. Which would've rung through if Paper Luigi was with Mario, Luigi and Paper Mario in the game. These are the names translated to English: Pair Plains Fifty-Fifty Desert Lookalike Archipelago Overlapped Woods Mirage Mountains

[@AurumAlex64]

Wow, I'm glad to see the names actually did have a theming to them, I don't know why that was ditched for the English version. But yes, agreed with everything you said, including thinking Dream Team is the best looking game. I really, really love Dream Team as a whole.

[@buzzytrombone4353]

@@AurumAlex64I remember when it came out I went on a holiday to France with my family and to this day I can still remember what it was like listening to the game’s soundtrack in France. Gorgeous to think about eleven years later.

[@siyahseeker]

8:19 Here are some ideas I have for Paper Jam location names: 1. Sunbeam Plains - Inspira Gardens (referring “inspiration”) 2. Doop Doop Dunes - Shredda Sandslide (referring to paper shredding) 3. Twinsy Tropics - Originul Waves (referring to originality) 4. Mount Brr - Wild Waxer Resort (referring to wax, the material that crayons are made of) 5. Gloomy Woods - Furnish Forest 6. Neo Bowser Castle - Bowser’s Cardboardicopia

[@Garrulous64]

This game does feel like it hates itself. There are very few Mario games I struggle to finish, but this one and Sticker Star are slogs to get through. On my most recent replay of Paper Jam I ended up skipping the entire Neo Bowser Castle with glitches because I just couldn't be bothered to care anymore. Brothership is a light in the darkness, and I'm very hyped for it!

[@bee2133]

Absolutely incredible video! I feel like i had a unique experience with this game, and i felt like sharing. Back when this game came out, i was in an active mario roleplaying community. It was overwhelming characters from the Mario and Luigi games and Paper Mario. (As well as OCs, of course, but they usually existed in those universes specifically.) This was a group of probably like 100 people, who were drawing art and writing stories on the regular, just out of sheer love for these characters and worlds. We were excited for Paper Jam! There was a ton of speculation about what itd be and how cool itd be to see some paper-only characters in the Mario and Luigi sprite style. We all had high hopes to see these worlds collide, even if we didnt get a ton of specific characters showing up. (Though we all hoped they would!!!) I couldnt afford to get Paper Jam when it came out, as i was a broke college student, barely getting by. But a lot of people did. I heard exactly 3 things about the game. 1. That peach talked about dying her hair purple. 2. The scene where Paper Peach walks out of the cage. 3. The year of luigi reference. And that was IT. No new blogs popped up. No new art was drawn. Nothing. This community wildly didnt like sticker star or color splash, but characters like Huey and Kersti had blogs. People TALKED about them. Even if it was just to complain, they popped up in the conversation. Even the Starlow accounts didnt reference this game, because it was so...nothing. This was in the PEAK market for the game. The people who loved mario so much that theyd spend so muvh time and effort to exist in these worlds. To let these stories continue. To see these characters be happy and have fun. To create characters and interactions that never happened in universe. And i saw 3 things about Paper Jam. Nothing else. And i think thats a shame.

[@warping2435]

Paper Jam is the only Mario and Luigi game I have ever put down. I will never finish it and I do not regret it.

[@zSteve1231]

I feel like this game should have Paper Luigi be Mr. L the entire time as a recurring boss. It would go well against the constant Luigi bashing the game does.

[@CalmTrickster03]

While it would be cool to have Mr. L back, the problem is the context behind it, as Luigi (in Super Paper Mario) was mind-controlled to be Mr. L and a robotic god. Although it would be cool if Luigi and his paper counterpart were to team up and become evil out of revenge for being mistreated, it would go against their character.

[@MySnugglePuppy]

@@CalmTrickster03 Honestly Paper Jam could have been the one moment in time where I would be fine with ignoring the canon timeline, just so we could see characters like Fawful and Dimentio interact, even though they’ve both long since died in their respective canons.

[@sumthinorother9615]

⁠@@MySnugglePuppy The paper characters are coming from a book anyway, right? It’s not like the Dimentio pages would have all been destroyed, so we only need any contrivance for the M&L Characters. (And now you have Dimentio, so you can probably make it happen…)

[@williammerwin1850]

I mean, the story could just have Kamek casting a spell on him that causes him to relapse. Also they should’ve had a Papercraft Brobot, it literally would’ve been perfect

[@shinyhero306]

An additional point on the “this game was seriously rushed and made by people who didn’t have anything else to give the series” point The glitches in this game are insane. Nearly every rock in this game has a way to clip out of bounds. Nearly every scene has at least one way to clip out of bounds which as I said is most commonly a rock for some reason, and the speedrun literally skips so much that if you use the route and mess up a specific order of buttons on mt brrr you LITERALLY CRASH THE GAME.

[@King_Luigi]

23:51 - _"Anytime I say 'Toad', there's an implied 'Toadette'. You should know that!"_ Doesn't sound so nice *now,* _does_ it Toadette?

[@ed_999]

Why are Paper Bowser Jr. and Paper Petey so smoothly animated compared to all the other Paper characters?

[@VonFirflirch]

That's driven me crazy for years. It also makes the 2-frame animations on every other Paper character look lazier: they could have looked smooth too, but nah~

[@jadonh]

I’m honestly shocked I don’t remember most of this from when I played the game originally. I honestly really enjoyed the game, but I do think it’s a shame it didn’t take full advantage of the cross-over. But I think the battle system was a heck of a lot of fun. It felt like the perfect blend of Partners in Time and more traditional Mario and Luigi gameplay. (And I really liked Partners in Time. One of my favorite games in the series, personally.) What’s funny is I felt like the Paper Toad chasing mini-games wasted my time less than other Mario and Luigi games mostly because they weren’t based on battles, but rather just racing around areas. That’s probably why I wasn’t bothered by them. It was also cool how the Paper Koopalings were semi-foreshadowed by the Koopalings of the non-paper world where they questioned if they had paper equivalents, and we got a payoff in Paper Mario: Color Splash. Honestly, it makes me wonder if the team actually was privy to some of what was being developed for Color Splash as a result, or if that was a happy accident. I think all the points brought up in the video are very much valid, but I still do really enjoy the game despite its problems as well as Sticker Star, which was brought up several times for comparison. I just can’t bring myself to greatly dislike any of the Mario RPGs because I like them all for their own reasons, and I like to take into account things that were out of the developers’ control, like the state Alpha Dream was in when Paper Jam was made. (Not to say that exempts the game’s shortcomings, but I’m the kind of person who likes to take context into account when judging something.) Either way, I do think it’s the weakest Mario and Luigi game in the series, but I personally wouldn’t call it abysmally bad. I think it has merit in its own right even past its issues, as does a game like Sticker Star. They’re not the best games in their respective series, but I, as well as others I’m sure, still do hold a soft spot for them for whatever personal reasons we may have. Thank you for the super informative video on Paper Jam! It was a super interesting watch the whole way through.

[@MisterZebra42]

This is both an absolutely devastating takedown of this game and the best, most generous defense of Sticker Star I’ve ever heard. Well done. Now that both PM and M&L seem to be back their feet more or less I think we deserve a second attempt at this game. Pull characters from all across both franchises, merge gameplay elements from both style, really make it a true celebration of all things Mario RPG.

[@falconpunch19]

Man, I remember playing Paper Jam and thinking it was pretty fun...then I remembered that there was nothing to look back to. We thought Sticker Star was bad? At least it TRIED in some cases. Tried and failed, yes, but still tried nonetheless. Even if Sticker Star has tons of flaws, it still felt more like an interesting adventure than...whatever nonsense this was. I think Ben Yahtzee Croshaw of Zero Punctuation/Fully Ramblomatic put it best in one of his videos: "Regular ZP viewers will know that many years back, I began supplementing my annual top 5 and bottom 5 with the blandest 5 games, as well. I started doing this because being bland is not quite the same thing as being bad, in my estimation. Bland is worse than bad. A lot worse. Sometimes, people ask me if I prefer to review good games or bad games, and frequently I reply that they’re about equally as fun. It’s the bland games, the mediocre ones, that feel like a chore. The only reason we play games (or experience any kind of art) is to make ourselves feel something, and even contempt and disgust are feelings. That being the case, the very worst thing a game can do is not provoke much feeling at all."

[@AurumAlex64]

I was thinking of this exact quote when I wrote the last part of the video. It's a really great summation.

[@falconpunch19]

@@AurumAlex64 Haha, it really is. Glad we shared the same braincell for a minute. :P

[@saladwear6797]

0:40 thats a lil jumping spider! they have bigger front legs to help em jump. havent watched the whole video yet, just wanted to point this out first

[@AurumAlex64]

I'm happy you were able to identify it, because I had no idea what kind it was when recording it! I meant to record paint slowly dripping down the wall, but I didn't have any paint on hand, so when I saw that spider, I thought it made for a suitably interesting substitute.

[@toekneemart5597]

Watching this video I realized something. I really like paper jam but I like it almost exclusively for its combat and that one plane ability in the overworld and didn't remember a bit of the story

[@MAN-MILK]

At approximately the 20 minute mark, you can hear Chuggaaconroy having an aneurysm in the background

[@maris_molotov]

I want you to know how smart a move it was to use Dream Team and Sticker Star as the main comparisons in this video.

[@AurumAlex64]

Well, those were the two games Paper Jam was most clearly using as inspiration, so I thought it was only fair

[@ThePaulineu]

This has convinced me to replay partners in time. I swear, the way it handles its narrative is so underrated - the balance between humour and seriousness is perfect

[@mortonandroy]

Not even a minute in, and there's already a jumping spider crawling around on the wall! I love those little guys!

[@Jayjar100]

Thank you for this video, it pretty much puts all my thoughts about this game into words. It's disappointing that the game was budgeted as it is, though it feels like an insult that Starlow is the only M&L character to return in this game when her only role is to shoot down Luigi at almost every opportunity they interact. It's impossible for me to call this the true 5th M&L game when it breaks so many conventions of the series for the worse and has little to nothing to offer that the other games already did better. Brothership seems like a step back in the right direction, so hopefully it'll be great! That being said, I love Nabbit so I am glad whenever he appears in Paper Jam lol

[@micahfurlow2624]

Only thing it does exceptionally well is the combat (and movement is also pretty fun, despite exploration being pretty dry in general)

[@Jdudec367]

It has ssome good combat and puzzle and ome exploration tbf, and some good bossses too.

[@nicolausaguillon3659]

I feel like the worst part about games like this is that it could have been good, it's missing stuff like a good overworld game play loop and story which shouldn't be that hard mainly because you hit the nail on the head 4 times already, it has good fights but that's it and it's sad.

[@maglev0789]

These issues can be seen even in the one part of this game that's widely liked, that being the battle system. Ive heard people say it's the best battle system in the series, however that's *severely* undermined by the fact the opponents have drastically less character than the bosses of prior games. In Bowser's Inside Story alone; there's a fountain gone haywire, Bowser fighting his own castle after it's taken over by another faction, a living neural network with heads that change states like a lights out puzzle when attacked (Kretin is one of my favorite bosses in that game but I digress), a parasitic grub magical girl and a rival to Bowser who fights in a cage match and later gets ice powers to mirror Bowser's fire. Even the most standard fare boss in that game, Wiggler, has an interesting twist in being a farmer. Paper Jam just has "ooo but theres two of them ooo". The regular enemies display this too, naturally. Character is one of the most important things about a boss, since it's what sets them apart from any other kind of challenge, it's their X factor. Lose that and there's a problem. Edit: Somehow, even the standard boss theme fits into my issues with the game. Sure, the second half is really good, but it's not worth slogging through the first half every loop to hear, just like how the battles aren't worth slogging through the story to experience.

[@shadowclonier3062]

It would've been cool if the game's plot started with Bowser kidnapping Mario in advance of his standard "take over the kingdom" plot because Mario always gets in the way and thus is trying to preempt it this time. Except it'd be Paper Bowser abducting M&L Mario, leaving the two Bowsers to come into conflict with one another, and Paper Mario and M&L Luigi can team up themselves to stop it instead. That'd rectify the problems with having the expanded party, while still easily letting both series' mechanics shine with their own character.