Partimento: Double Counterpoint and Imitation

Hey, Partimento-geeks! This is a video about some invertible counterpoint schemata that can be exploited in imitation phases as opening section. This tutorial contains:
- analysis of original examples by Händel and J.S. Bach
- reduction to schematic scaffoldings
- explanation of different partimento basses (by Fago, Fenaroli, Insanguine) that feature double counterpoint schemata
- presentation of short examples of typical diminutions of the explained schemata, partly taken from original compositions for improvisational or compositional purposes
Video editiing, piano, partimento-realizations and music by Michael Koch

[@Buch_2024]

Brilliant video! Excellent observation on the counterpoint/harmony dichotomy! Many people don't understand that harmony is a more modern invention. Understanding of Partimenti and counterpoint is essential to understanding this language. Well done. 👏👏

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thanx, Biggles! :D

[@CalebePriester]

lol No wonder they could produce so much music. This is awesome. Thank you so much.

[@Santoshpiano]

I am in love with your channel. Please make more videos like this 🙏🙏 It's beautiful!!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey Santosh, THX a lot for your reply. I appreciate your comment :DD I'm doing my very best!

[@user-tn5sf4go6n]

Ohhh. Thank you so much, it is way more usefull than just a paragraph in the harmony exercice book. Mindblowing!!!

[@prevatican2catholicshow]

Excellent job!

[@johngoldberg5589]

An amazing, much needed video!

[@gabrielakochmusic]

Great video again, thank you 🏄🏽‍♀️ so interesting!

[@svenrohark4003]

Genial 👍

[@RaptInReverie]

Very nice!

[@juanmariomonroy2038]

Gran aporte Maestro. Sin duda será importante para mejorar mí modesta composición. Mil Gracias 🎉

[@brunocecchini433]

Great video! Please do a beginner video series on partimento, your videos are very didatic.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey Bruno! Thx for visiting! Yeah I already thought about that and I do wanna serve the beginners as well. At the moment I'm preparing other stuff though... Until that, could you go a little bit into detail in what kind of topics / partimenti / details you'd be interested in? That'd help me a lot... Thank you

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Besides that I think there's some pretty basic stuff already on my channel... Check out the video on 1) cadences, 2) the video on Durante as this one deals with a most important rule of the octave module and 3) the video on the circle of fiths that demonstrates fundamental concepts of diminution. How about that?

[@brunocecchini433]

@@en-blanc-et-noir I am happy that doing beginner content is one of your future goals, thanks for that. It would be very helpful for me as a beginner on partimento if there were some realization exercises that progressed on difficulty with some realization given as a model. I know that this already is available in one way or another on some rule books that you can find online, but I find the progression a little too fast or the explanation of the given lesson or rule a little bit lacking. It's hard for me specially to identify change in key, or to decide when I should realize it as a block 'chord' or as a diminution, or even when to apply suspension. Some example or schema for diminutions over given bass would be very helpful too, just like you did in some of your videos. I think in general it's just too many concepts at once to tackle on as a beginner, and they seem to be really connected, so it is hard for a beginner to identify them and study them separatedly, so maybe it is important to trace some beginners steps like "first you learn figured bass and to realize easy partimento in block chords", then "study some schema and common cadences", after that "you practice simple dimunitions over common bass progression", then you "progresso to three voices" and start doing some intermediate partimento. Sorry for the long answer but in general I think that a good beginner content would explore partimento realization and improvisation in a progressive way, and give a lot of models so a solo student can his own realization to his 'online master'. And I think some good beginners topics would be: Rule of the Octave, cadences, common schemas, diminutions, suspensions, etc. each tackled on separatedly, and then maybe explore some of the ways they relate to each other.

[@notasinglef1604]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Hallo Michael, erstmals gratuliere dir fuer die tollen Videos und fuer deine Kompetenz, steckt sicher viel arbeit dahinter, dafuer machst du s echt megageil! Ich finde fuer Anfaenger recht gut wenn mann das Material erstmals ohne Vorhaelte, Septimen und Dissonanzen angeht, (also nur Dreiklaenge auf 4 Stimmen spielen), dabei fallen zwar manche Sequenzen wie die legatura del basso total aus, dafuer tut man sich beim spaeteren erlernen von Sequenzen mit Vierklaengen viel leichter die Gemeinsamkeiten zu erkennen. LG aus Suedtirol

[@Buch_2024]

I think it would also be good to underscore the difference between strict counterpoint and free counterpoint more associated with the high classicism of Haydn and Mozart as well as the difference between church music (appropriate preparations etc) and..the rest..lol

[@raycasbierd]

Thank you for taking the time to make these videos, anychance you could breakdown christian petzold menuet in g the one everyone thought was bach's, I believe it to be important as it was obviously in bachs collection. Thank you.

[@zishumusic]

I want learn partimento . very good video

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thanks! If you're interested in lessons: you can find my contact on the channel's main page.

[@supviewer]

Hi there! Are there any other complementary melodic lines which can create invertible counterpoint when combined? Would you be interested on making a video on this topic? Or is there a book (or any other source) to study them from it? Thank you!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey, I recommend to read the chapter on imitation in G. Sanguinettis "Art of Partimento" (p. 191 f.). On p. 197 he shows some more examples of exchangeable two-voice-counterpoint-scaffoldings. I think there's more on this topic in Schubert / Neidhofers Book on Baroque Counterpoint. In general I'd say that invertible counterpoint (even triple c.p.) is in many cases linked to a combination of clausulae OR to preexisting schemata but... Here's a very instructive article on multiple counterpoint in the WTK that outlines the same concept of scaffolding - elaboration (it is in German!): www.gmth.de/zeitschrift/artikel/535.aspx

[@supviewer]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Thank you very much! I wish you all the best!

[@michaelcalder9089]

Question....does one learn species counterpoint first then partimento or figure bass voice leading? Or all simultaneously?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

My opinion is: species cp is a total waste of time and should be banned from every curriculum. I learned species with three different professors and I absorbed absolutely nothing from it, I taught it in University until the department decided that lesson content apart from some very general alignments is up to the teachers entirely (I kicked species and ‚old’ counterpoint) . The problem with species is that it is not really connected to any kind of concrete musical style - some people seem to think you can teach the ‚sheer’ counterpoint, abstracting from any stylistic considerations but they‘re wrong. Methodically: there is no linear way through the jungle, if you wanna learn thoroughly you should get a teacher and avoid reddit 😂

[@Mazurking]

Hello, wonderful video of which I learnt a lot. Would you have an idea of a book with this kind of approach to counterpoint? I want to go beyond the fact that I should avoid parallel fifths.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Once you start diggin' the term "Partimento" you'll find out

[@Mazurking]

@@en-blanc-et-noir thank you. Will do.

Did you manage to get Fago's complete partimento? If so, can I have it, too, please?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Yo! Thx for watching! Yeah, I got it: someone sent me the so called "Tarantino-Manuscript" (a messy manuscript!) and I transcribed it per hand! It is actually a really good one.. Please contact me per mail or via academia.edu!

[@jacktomchang9892]

The pieces by George Frideric immediately reminded me of the Little Prelude in D minor BWV 935.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

yeah, because it belongs to the same imitation scaffolding archetype!

[@jacktomchang9892]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Thanks for the clarification. I just thought in my simple minded way that Bach was "obviously influenced by Handle." Lol

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

@@jacktomchang9892 HA! that's hilarious! probably the conclusion that 90 percent of musicians would draw - more likely the other way around: Händel stole it from Bach :DD I think it's not THAT bad haha, there's even worse outgrowths of this mindset, e.g. Chopin's Preludes being influenced by Bach and stuff such alike.

[@jacktomchang9892]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Yeah! Hummel certainly doesn't get enough credit. But I started reading Maupassant short stories yesterday and the idea of a Literary influence struck me write between the eyes. Maybe Flaubert?

[@felix-xo8oi]

tolles video! aber, die bach sinfonia: sollte das stück eigentlich zweistimmig sein? ich habe angeschaut, wie es weitergeht und mein eindruck ist, daß die dreistimmigkeit eigentlich nicht notwendig ist.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Danke Fe lix... :D wann wird denn Dreistimmigkeit notwendig? just asking...

[@felix-xo8oi]

@@en-blanc-et-noir anders gefragt: warum wird der dritte themeneinsatz nicht genauso behandelt, wie die anderen? finde ich seltsam. es gibt von reger bearbeitungen von den inventionen, bei denen er eine dritte stimme hinzufügt. so sieht mir das ein bißchen aus. aber vielleicht gibt es ja einen grund?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Wenn es mein Stück wäre würde ich auch keinen dritten Einsatz bringen, denn dann hätte ich nochmal h-moll - und etwas neues würde es eigentlich auch nicht bringen, denn die Verkehrbarkeit des Soggetto-Paars ist ja durch die ersten beiden Einsätze schon belegt, ein dritter wäre in dieser Logik dann redundant. "Dritte Einsätze" in den dreistimmigen Inventionen ergeben im Wesentlichen dann einen spezifischen Sinn die erste Imitation in die Oberquinte moduliert und die dritte dann wieder zurück zur I. (Es gibt auch Gegenbeispiele zu dieser These, wie immer). Was Reger da macht, weiß ich nicht und - no offence - ich will es eigentlich auch gar nicht wissen, der ist für mich ein Rotes Tuch. :DDD Cheers, Felix

[@felix-xo8oi]

@@en-blanc-et-noir bei reger trägst du da eulen nach athen, was meine haltung anbelangt. aber als idee finde ich es doch interessant das zu diskutieren: warum ist eine invention zweistimmig und ergibt es kontrakpunktisch und auch formal sinn, eine dritte stimme hinzuzufügen. anyway, nerdmode off.

[@cippigna]

The A minor partimento is very similar to one by Durante that is also found in the Cimarosa's notebook. I published a realization of that on the guitar : kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXWtZZJ9iJecgtk

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Hey! You're right, thanks!