Passing in Blood Bowl 2020 - Theory Thursday (Bonehead Podcast)

It’s Theory Thursday - where we look at an aspect of Blood bowl in detail!
Whether it’s tactics, stats or hypotheses, we’re just trying to get better at Blood Bowl!
Patreon Link: / boneheadpodcast
#BloodBowl #BloodBowl2020 #GamesWorkshop
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[@AnneKinzler]

I completely agree with the probabilities and your take on passing from a success/fail standpoint. That being said, I do think players in this season are highly undervaluing the threat of passing compared to the actual pass itself. While you as the passing player may not feel comfortable taking a 66% pass chance, your opponent will feel far less comfortable with leaving that as an option. Every player within range of the endzone becomes an immediate threat that must be handled from your opponent's perspective since I don't think any player would be willing to hand their opponent a 3+ chance to score immediately. This makes simply having a dedicated Thrower force your opponent to play your game instead of theirs. As an example, a Human team with a Thrower with Cannoneer, 4 blitzers, and 1 catcher can easily create 5 scoring threats. If you have a team reroll handy then your opponent must figure out how to lock down 5 players, while also keeping running screens in check since every one of those has a 79% chance of success at Long Pass range. This can create an amazing TV on Pitch situation for you since your opponent can't simply mark each of your players with 1 of their own.

[@goodlookingcorpse]

So it sounds like you're saying "threaten to pass, but then don't".

[@AnneKinzler]

@@goodlookingcorpse It depend so on the situation. There will be times that throwing blocks to clear a whole for a runner to move through will have worse odds than freeing a receiver and just scoring. Ultimately, whether you throw or now, it will force your opponent to commit to blocking it.

[@R0ssMM]

@@goodlookingcorpse I'd say that if you threaten to pass then they have to defend against both that and a normal bash/dash approach. Forcing your opponent to make hard decisions is usually in your favour

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Pinned for excellence!

[@BrickworksDK]

You forgot one reason to make a pass: to force your opponent to defend deep. I usually play Orks, so my opponent will mostly use a shallow defence with players close to the line of scrimmage. But once I've shown him that I'm willing to dodge several Goblins through his line and then throw the ball, he'll be forced to thin out his line to defend against it. And that makes it easier for me to bash in some heads. Sure, I could do a handoff to a Goblin and run with the ball. But a single Goblin running with the ball is just an XP Piñata. Four Goblins all running towards the endzone on the other hand...

[@dambrooks7578]

My person choice with my Orc team build has 4 Goblins 4 Blitzers 3 Blorcs 1 Thrower, 3 Rerolls and spare kitty was spent on Fan Factor, Assistant Coach and a Cheerleader; although I haven't transposed this into the 2020 rules, mostly as I am going to running a Chaos Renegade team...

[@BrickworksDK]

I would often start out with 4 Blitzers and only 2 Black Orks. It did mean a little less punch on the line of scrimmage, but on the other hand, with Blitzers and Goblins I had a team that was a bit faster than what you would normally expect. I haven't had a game of BB2020 yet, so I'm not sure if this is the right way to do it any more. Extra movement on the Big 'Un is a pretty big deal, and makes them much more interesting. And with the nerf to passing, I see little reason to pay for a Thrower, except to ensure that I have a good chance of picking the ball up. I'm thinking I might go with 4 Blitzers and 4 Big 'Uns now, supplemented with a few Goblins for picking up the ball. Seems to me that the game is far more focused on bashing and running rather than throwing these days. Thankfully, Orks are pretty good at crumbling 'umies (and anyone else getting in the way), but I will miss the ability to do an unexpected pass.

[@ebbiilizard8954]

This is my sentiment as well. You threaten to pass, to get heat off the ball carrier.

[@goodlookingcorpse]

Blood Bowl is set in a world where most people who are mauled by a bear will be fine to play a game of rugby afterwards, but hardly anyone can throw a ball a few meters.

[@secdeal]

of course, since being punched is really easy to achieve

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Hahaha, worryingly accurate! I imagine being mauled by bear might leave you with a distinct "number of fingers" advantage?! Could explain it! xD

[@wilsonw13]

The talk of GFI/Rush vs passes was true Blood Bowl to me. This is the best Theory Thursday I've heard yet, and the best I've heard online as of yet. I feel people feel they understand these things, but when it's explained this well, it becomes obvious. Which is the point of a theory to me. Great Job!

[@ryangriffiths5179]

I would like to see videos on skills. Either sorted by category (agility/general etc) or by position (blitzers skills, big guy skills, etc). Although those could be top 5 Friday videos. Other good ideas are: - planning how to plan and develop a team for a league - cage strategies I also would love to see a video of that fummble game (slang throw / leap / TD) if you happened to record it.

[@mattellis3297]

I'd like to see a video on how to make a draft. Especially one based off of 7s results for a regular blood bowl team.

[@ryangriffiths5179]

@@mattellis3297 I agree - I am getting back into the game after a decade and have 3 players who have been away just as long and 4 newbies. It’s up to me to learn the rules, teach everyone and run the league. So learning this will help.

[@mattellis3297]

I envy you sir. Too have friends too play with lol. The great thing about Blood Bowl is there sure is plenty of interesting topics to talk about!

[@ryangriffiths5179]

@@mattellis3297 when the new online version comes out in August I will make a league and you are invited to join!

[@MLKshit]

I think I would switch the fumbled and wildly inaccurate results, and give short passes up to and including 7 distance. It would be a balance change that would only improve passing just by a bit, but that is all it needs. Bashy teams shouldn't be passing unless they're quick passes or short passes. Another idea could be to actually start picking nerves of steel as soon as possible. This skill is amazing in this edition.

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Hey Cakelord! I also rate NoS really highly now! I'd be surprised if we didn't see a passing shake-up in the future - we intend to speculate on it with "Over-Inflated Ball" rules :D

[@jeremyrobinson1611]

@@BoneheadPodcast don't bet on a passing review given who oversaw the creation of this edition.

[@FabioSpelta]

@@jeremyrobinson1611 who was that? 🤔

[@ebbiilizard8954]

The other use for a thrower is ball recovery at the end of a turn from a tackle zone. Failure here will not likely make your situation worse. Run in with any thrower , meybe pick up the ball then instead of dodging away you can pass with the inbuilt pass skill, instead of dodging away that could waste a precious reroll on a none essential roll. Best case it's caught, if not then it's now in a better spot next to your player and only rarely is it going to end somewhere bad.

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Totally! Sometimes it's just worth hooning it down the pitch!!

[@Mech-Badger-Man]

Passing will not be good till very inaccurate is changed so it’s less than 1 after modifiers. Super simple change, makes normal passes worth the risk, and with a single skill long passes can be viable.

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Badger's Den - I totally agree, 0 or less = Wild would've been a pretty clean way to do it!!

[@Dikarika]

I feel like fumble and wildly inaccurate should be swapped. It seems weird to get punished so hard for a modifier reduction to 1 or below but only drop the ball on a natural 1.

[@MLKshit]

Totally agree. Nat one should always give the worse result.

[@deckerCKY]

If GW wanted a third 'fail' result, it should have done a less severe 'fail by 1' result that's less severe than inaccurate.

[@Demolitiondude]

Deep ball offense is always high risk high reward. But how the mechanics and penalties are, most coaches will opt for routes. Even with elf thrower at 1+ passing, free reroll, and elf catcher with 6 agility and free reroll; most coaches will run the ball instead of passing.

[@mattellis3297]

Fortuna favors the bold

[@BoneheadPodcast]

And they technically should! But the rush of rolling a 4+ Pass can't be beaten haha

[@desslaven7935]

I'm playing a Human team that's all about passing. My other team is Chaos Chosen so I wanted to try the opposite end of the Blood Bowl spectrum. They've only played one game against Necro so far but they won 2-1 and every successful pass was oh so satisfying. I don't care if it's not the most efficient way to play Humans, it definitely feels the most fun 😁

[@mattellis3297]

I'm trying a chaos passing team myself lol. On fumbl they had tzeentch demons for blood bowl 16. They were designed to be a passing and pass def team. I hope they come back since I actually have a tzeentch demons bb team.

[@desslaven7935]

You never know! At least you can take a team as favoured of Tzeentch at the moment, it's a start!

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Oh Des Slaven, that's awesome to hear!!! Passing is definitely sub-optimal, but it's very, very fun!!

[@BoneheadPodcast]

The Tzeentch teams on FUMBBL are awesome!!

[@gabrielgosselin8690]

My tip for passing: Keep them passes short. Think of it as a "long" hand-off". For longer passes, you HAVE to devellop your Thrower.

[@JersyCityDevil]

It's not that I disagree with you but I think the evaluation is a bit too black and white. I think with a high AG team passing is also quite viable to just get yourself out of a bad situation, even if you're not far ahead or behind. If most of my team is under threat to be flattened but I can get the ball to a player far away from the action, that can really be worth it. Of course you're right: Every time you roll the dice is a risk and passing just for the sake of it is a risk that is unnecessary. I just don't agree that passing in general is so bad that you should basically never do it unless it's a hopeless situation anyway. Yes, you're rolling the dice. But you're also rolling the dice when blocking and I never heard anyone say that blocking should generally be avoided.

[@davidstephenson4786]

awesome coverage there Ben.

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Hey David, thanks :D I Appreciate that!

[@deanthomas2561]

If a PA1+ thrower rolls a 2 on a short pass is than an accurate pass or a wildly inaccurate pass? I'm really enjoying your Theory Thursday videos, we'll see if they make me a better player.

[@AnneKinzler]

In the FAQ they clarify that this is an accurate pass since, after modifiers, you were actually successful.

[@BradAdams42]

This is great. Can you do similar with throw teammate?

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Thanks Brad! ...OK :D Let's do it!

[@FoulPet]

Challenge: Take a drink anytime you hear "plus"

[@andrewjohnsen6315]

Loved this. I am trying to figure out which is the least poor life decision to make for a passing halfling hefty. Got enough SPP to pick a passing skill trying to decide between pass and accurate.

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Yes!! The Hefty is underrated! Go Accurate - you'll have the RRs from the Chef, and then 2+ passes will help you get more COM more quickly! :D

[@davidblake5415]

First Hefty to get a chosen Passing skill surely should take on the ball to improve the chance of the OTT

[@andrewjohnsen6315]

@@davidblake5415 That is how I went and then accurate. It worked out pretty good for me!

[@megaplini7389]

If only we were allowed to do more than one throw per turn 🤤

[@lyracian]

That was a good summary. I guess the only thing missing was comparing the double rush/GFI to the quick pass. You talked about it but did not see any numbers. It is also why I am only interested in those 2+ Throwers. Humans, Skaven and Elves are looking good. Bretonian Nobel with a 3+? Get out out of town mate! I am not spending skills to make you in a good passer.

[@jeremyrobinson1611]

Unless I misread it, you can't pass (excluding throw team mate) to an empty square without hail Mary anymore.

[@theoneandonlygrod]

15:55: *Nice.*

[@luketubbs2551]

You only covered how likely you are to get a completion, not how likely are you to get the ball near where you want at the end of your turn (inaccurate pass) 😁

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Haha, someone actually requested an Inaccurate Pass scatter chance video and how well Diving Tackle worked with Hail Mary! :O Could be sweet!!

[@luketubbs2551]

@@BoneheadPodcast thinking of the situation where you have managed to gain control of the ball late in a turn but your handler is not particularly safe, but so long as you can throw it over the wall of your players it’ll be fairly safe.

[@dambrooks7578]

Last season I (resentfully) took a Thrower for my Orc team, he managed to get enough passes under his belt to gain the Block skill. Still struggling to see its validity, especially as I will be taking the Chaos Renegade team next season with the 3+ Thrower which makes it only a natural Pass action above the Chaos Renegade Dark Elf 3+ pass action. Something for me to ponder over...

[@mattellis3297]

Your gonna build your DE as a QB? Iv been thinking something similar. Would you make the catchers human linemen? Or sacrifice your safety and make your skaven a catcher?

[@dambrooks7578]

@@mattellis3297 For the Chaos Renegade team? I aim to pass to the DE who will hand off to the Skaven for the TD and use both the Ogre and Rogre as a shield to move the ball up the pitch, the Rogre will be the main blitzing machine to clear the path. It all seems sound as an academic concept, but Nuffle generally has no patience or time for academia arguments on their pitch. Time will tell... 😶

[@OmegaDestroyer99]

Passing? *chuckles in Nurglish*

[@BoneheadPodcast]

I find you lack of faith Disturbing... Presence... ;D

[@tsmith9642]

If you take nothing else from this video, just remember.... 69 is as good as it gets

[@andreww2241]

So put diving catch on a human catcher Thrower t quick pass 94% i cam live with that

[@BoneheadPodcast]

Superb!! It'll still fail when you really need it, but at least you know you *are* allowed to feel robbed! haha

[@psmiddy5742]

It's going to be inaccurate-not if you have a 2+ thrower

[@BoneheadPodcast]

All or nothing, haha!

[@psmiddy5742]

Wildly inaccurate in a tackle zone would be better

[@BoneheadPodcast]

That would also be a great rule change!!

[@psmiddy5742]

@@BoneheadPodcast That would reward pressure other than making them dodge out. Would be cool!

[@AzraelEVA]

Or they could make it that wildly inaccurate scatters from the targeted square D8 for direction D3+3 for squares