Pastors: Please Stop Using This Popular (and Unbiblical) Analogy.

[@MelissaDougherty]

Further resources: Penal Substitution: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5-oo6Cjorita6ssi=AWiPhIkxNn7yWkH0 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIPTiqx7mct3n5Ysi=WXVOxncuSGbUc3tl What does "Son of God" mean?: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gITKiqONbZ53h9ksi=l2H4S1_c7JsSzCMJ

[@Jason-cn5vo]

That last part is what I see a whole lot of. People believing they are opposed to Christianity, but what they are opposing a lot of times isn't Christianity at all.

[@omufirika2023]

You have someone in the comments impersonating you.

[@Jericho-xs3ju]

Thanks for doing this video. I’ve never heard this analogy but I have not been to. Church in years. Analogy’s. B s surveys. Meant to manipulate congregations through guilt and emotions

[@Jericho-xs3ju]

Are all reasons why people leave and can’t swallow the b s

[@rduff1999]

Melissa Could you tell me what bible you use. I'm interested because when I was much younger and studying to be a minister I came across something interesting in regards to the expulsion from Eden. Understanding that the different denominations.inations of Christianity have slight differences I'm curious as to what you may have read about it. Thank you

[@garymathis1042]

John 10:18: "No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again."

[@jwquarry51]

and there it is, drop the mic and walk off brother

[@stephenfennell]

Amen! Amen! That verse is SO valuable.

[@dianen_co5897]

Thank you, Melissa! That was a great explanation!

[@Jharrison6014]

Didn't Jesus ALSO tell his disciples "I do nothing of myself" and "please take this bitter cup away, but not MY will, but YOUR will be done"?

[@garymathis1042]

@@Jharrison6014 LOL. Pretty much proves Jesus is God, doesn't it?

[@ArtisticMysticSoul]

You just explained penal substitution, and the character of God /Jesus in a way I have NEVER heard, and I am a lifelong Christian. I always believed Jesus died willingly, but was taught he was God's whipping boy. Because of that, I have had severe difficulties my whole life with God the father, but not Jesus. Now, I find out they are the same, and that literally God died for us. I can't even begin to tell you how many years of spiritual abuse this begins to heal. I am in tears. Thank you.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

If you want to get "technical", which is what Melissa has done to this story, be it right or wrong, it is theologically inaccurate to say that "God died for us." God can't die. God is eternal. It is an impossibility for God to die. If God died He would cease to be God. Yes, the human element of the person of Jesus Christ died, but not His divinity. Just saying. :)

[@raevj]

@@peterpulpitpounder God can do WHATEVER HE WANTS….including incarnating a human body and rising from the dead. You are thinking in very restrictive terms of the human existence…not like God.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

@@raevj Oh, and I agree with you that God can do anything. But, yet again, if we are going to get "technical" about this, God can't do just "anything". He can't sin, or lose His memory, or sleep, or forget, or fail to keep His promises, or misjudge something, or overbake one of his angels he's got cooking in the oven, etc. :)

[@vinciblegaming6817]

@@peterpulpitpounderRight… which is why he incarnated into human flesh and suffered all the way to the point in which the Romans would have forced his death (breaking his legs) before “Giving up his spirit”. His fleshly body suffered and died, fully under his control. We might be guilty of being the reason he died, for wanting him on the cross, and cheering on his death, but God ultimately had the control and did this willingly, not forced.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

@@vinciblegaming6817 Yes, Jesus said that He laid His own life down. Human action and volition played right into the sovereign, all-wise plan of divinity.

[@aaronwalcott513]

This is the first I've heard of this. It took me by surprise. Which is the whole problem: God the Father is never taken by surprise. He didn't decide to send Jesus *in response* to sin. Jesus was slain "before the foundation of the world." Men of God should know this.

[@shenckita]

"They end up leaving a religion or a belief that The Bible never taught them in the first place" so true, so sad

[@TheIndecisiveWigWearer]

I once heard a Southern Baptist say in a sermon, tell the devil to go back to hell where he came from. I thought he’s never been to hell. Why do pastors say things for the sake of how it sounds instead of Biblical truth?

[@madjack821]

Because they’re unqualified to be pastors

[@andrew-pd7nf]

And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling-these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

[@wayneemery6785]

Thank you! I'm 72 and you just cleared up a question I've had for a very long time.

[@kristibrown3484]

Melissa I love listening to you. I’m the daughter of a preacher and have heard SO MANY illustrations. You explained Son of God in a way that helped this 65 year old understand Yeshua even better. Thank you!

[@kathytincler2446]

Same!

[@latoyafleming2930]

I know! I wish I had her as a teacher in school.

[@kywantishardy5826]

Same.. I’m 51

[@Wretched-man-that-I-am]

I really like the story of Abraham sending the servant to get Rebekah for Isaac to explain the Holy Spirit. In that storyline Rebekah represented the church, Isaac represented Christ, Abraham represented God, and the servant that remains nameless represented the Holy Spirit.

[@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

As both a Christian and a railroad hobbyist who specializes in signal and interlocking systems, I say RIGHT ON! Thanks for exposing this story for the fallacy it is. I have cringed for years every time it turns up. Anyone with knowledge of both the Bible and railroad signal practices would agree.

[@jbeard3390]

Oh my lawd, after hearing "son of" so many times, i finally understand. It only took 1000 people to explain it, and the 1001 person it clicks. I get it. Thank you.

[@tonn333]

Same!!!

[@jk01973]

Yes, me too.

[@leslielutz6028]

Loved that explanation - had never heard of it! Praise God!

[@anitamoss9408]

Oh man, I’ve heard this train story several times in the church I used to attend. Thank you so much Melissa for clarifying and teaching doctrinal truths❤

[@loiscarteaux9389]

This is why doctrine matters.

[@dipfried3965]

Yes! Theology is so necessary for growth in Christian faith.

[@merchrich9758]

honestly this is why reading the bible thoroughly with theologian's explanations and cross references is incredibly important. the people that made up this analogy obviously don't know what "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" means or what it references to. if you don't know what this means, i can easily see how you could fall into the trap of thinking there's some disconnect between Jesus and The Father, when in reality there is no disconnect.

[@abidingewe2065]

@@merchrich9758 Yes 🙌 👏 Jesus referencing Psalm 22:1 ♥️

[@MoStBlEsSeD]

So true

[@harveyabel1500]

Reading the Bible the other day, my blood was practically boiling over what Christ suffered: it was decided He would be crucified - we know that. But, first? First, scourge this innocent lamb! How evil/ cruel man can be.😢

[@TheRealApocalypseCowboy]

As an ex Mormon and newbie Born Again Christian, I really appreciate this awesome vidjó!! 🙏 ✝️💪🤠

[@StevieD1x]

Welcome to Team Jesus!!

[@TheRealApocalypseCowboy]

@@StevieD1x Thank you!

[@StevieD1x]

@@TheRealApocalypseCowboy ✝️🙏🏻

[@Dan_Gleebalz]

You don't need to be an apostate LDS to appreciate the video.

[@Dan_Gleebalz]

​@StevieD1x "Mormons" are on "team Jesus." It's kinda right there in the name: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[@kamarwashington]

This was so obviously flawed from the onset. It ignores Gods sovereignty and makes Jesus’s sacrifice incidental rather than foreordained.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

But the intent of the story was not to communicate the whole gamut of redemptive truth. In fact, many parables in the Bible, if over-interpreted, would appear flawed.

[@kamarwashington]

@@peterpulpitpounder It only takes surface level interpretation to see the many flaws of the story. It misrepresents Gods character. A good allegory can be used to effectively communicate truth, but this just isn’t a good one.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

@@kamarwashington The story is actually a true account of an event that took place in back in 1937, and the only "point" that this story has been used to communicate is that Jesus was sacrificed to save a lost and dying world. That's it. That's the premise. The story has never been used to communicate the finer points of biblical soteriology. In fact, there are some parables in the Bible, that if pushed too hard, quickly become poor analogies of biblical truth. But they aren't designed to be dissected, torn apart and over-interpreted. There is a central truth to be gleaned and appreciated. That's what being done to this story, in my opinion. No, it's not a perfect illustration for every biblical truth. But it does speak of the sacrifice of one, for the saving of many. That certainly a good and biblical thought.

[@kamarwashington]

@@peterpulpitpounder There are better ways to make the point.

[@peterpulpitpounder]

​@@kamarwashington It's a real-life story that has only been used to communicate the idea that one person was sacrificed for the sake of others (Jesus for the sake of the world). That's how people have used the story, and that's the central premise that has been articulated. No, the father in the earthy narrative does not accurately communicate every single dimension of God's character. That's taking the story and its application way beyond how the story has been typically applied. And the argument is that this story should stop being used. Um, my argument is that the average person is not thinking in any way like some career apologist, and is ONLY appreciating the idea that God loves me, that God sent His Son into the world for me, and that Jesus died that I might live. They aren't thinking about how all the details of the story fail to line up with all the finer points of theology. Has anyone who has ever heard this story used in a sermon actually been influenced to embrace theological heresy? Only God knows, but I doubt it. A choice was made to sacrifice one person, for the sake of many. That is the central point to be appreciated. Hey, I've got a question for you. In Luke 20:13, where the vineyard owner says, "What am I going to do?" If the vineyard owner represents God the Father, does this mean that God gets unduly flustered and doesn't necessarily know what to do next? Does this mean that God sometimes acts in desperation? And in the parable, the vineyard owns says, 'Maybe, just maybe they will listen to my son." Um, does this mean that God doesn't know what the future holds, or how His created beings are going to act? Wait, am I making too much of these small details? :)

[@dalebrown6460]

Jesus came to the cross knowing what would happen! Willingly he laid down his life for the Father and for all the Father sent him to save! Thanks Jesus! You're the best!

[@thetruedaoster8863]

That is a weird analogy - I'm glad I never heard this one to my knowledge.... We need indeed to pray for pastors - and by extension for parents! Thanks Melissa! God bless

[@hharden4969]

Agreed! Never came across this myself but it seems to be another example of bringing God to a mortal imperfect state when he is SO much more than that. So glad we still have many that are setting the record straight with this. God bless!🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@sarahberkner]

​​@@hharden4969 Jesus told plenty of analogies (parables) so he seemed to be okay with God being represented by a father figure or other mortal person. And the father wasn't "forced" to kill his son, it just seemed like the best choice. The analogy is supposed to make us think about what a sacrifice it is for a father to give up his son, and that's it. It's still good to discuss doctrine.

[@ninjaked1265]

@@sarahberknerthe analogy still doesn’t work. It’s heretical

[@Derinku]

Wow, Ive seen this analogy many times (video included) and never stopped to think about it, you are 100% true about this! Totally miss the love of the Father and the Son, both willingly giving for the humanity

[@shafikahambidge7871]

Amen! If you get Jesus wrong, you get the whole Bible wrong.

[@Tony-t5d]

AMEN!

[@7bag7]

And of course you got the correct version right?

[@Nighhhts]

If you get the Gospel wrong, it doesn’t matter how much you know about the rest of the Bible.

[@goosieschmoo8239]

​@@7bag7it's called discernment.

[@TrishWragg]

@@7bag7I guess you do!

[@lisjay8138]

Thank you Melissa for addressing this bad analogy! At 10 seconds in , I knew that I had to comment... at 2 minutes in, ... here I am, When I was in my late teens I heard a similar version to this, and it just sounded so wrong in so many ways, I couldn't understand why others could not see it. Now I'll listen to the remaining 14 minutes. I'm keen to hear how you put this into words that others can understand. Thanks 😊

[@shizlegizmgar]

Amen! Say it louder for the people in the back!! “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” -Jesus (John 10: 17&18)

[@InterventionalWoodworking]

I haven't heard this analogy before, but in my experience, I've heard analogies similar to this to refute Christianity as well. Analogies that reach for human emotion don't change people's hearts like the Spirit-led conversations that lead to repentance and faith do. Striving for the ability to explain biblical theology in a manner that is plain and understandable has helped me greatly and resulted in several people coming to the saving grace of Jesus. Good video, Melissa.

[@_The_Traveler_]

It's kind of bizarre to me that people understand these concepts so clearly when we're talking about anime or comic book characters. If I said there was a being who had three distinct persons but shared the same will and mind, and I said I was talking about some MCU character, people would immediately try to rationalize them and explain how their existence is perfectly plausible based on real-world sciences and philosophies. The second you bring up Jesus however, people act like these concepts are too complicated for them to grasp and totally unbelievable. It's the flesh resisting vulnerability, the flesh doesn't want to give up control of the mind.

[@Altixis]

The devil has blinded them so they should not understand.. 2 Cor 4:4 :(

[@jancerny8109]

If somebody said an MCU character had genuine existence in the real world, they would be committed, I hope. A fanboy's "rationalization" of a mind-melded trio would be part of imaginative play or discussion. If anything, most comic nerds know better than the average person how completely impossible psi powers actually are. Religious believers insist the gospels aren't fiction, which means, for a start, that they need to show a mechanism for telepathy, among other things.

[@_The_Traveler_]

@@jancerny8109 You missed my point entirely, but that's ok. I don't have the time or patience to debate with you, we can just respectfully agree to disagree. God bless you.

[@dacenmarus1618]

Well put

[@kennorthunder2428]

@@jancerny8109 It's all about understanding things properly. You're assuming you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the gospels are fiction. There's a mechanism and metrics to understanding anything in this world including ideas, and you don't even have to have telepathy.

[@thorwilkinson2565]

Great job Melissa, this is an emotional tool that can draw most Christians “of the rails”. It is important not to let our emotions drive us in anything we do but to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. Love your videos, look forward to your next one.

[@mikenixon2401]

That is a terrible analogy. I am glad I never heard it until now (and only because it is in context to your message). Thank you for speaking out on bad practices. Now, let's go be a blessing.

[@taxidermydavid]

I've been saying this for years!! Thank you for posting.

[@l.c.8798]

Never heard that analogy, very weird. Excellent breakdown! 💯🙌

[@dand4485]

I've heard the analogy before. Two things i would find fault with it. 1.) Makes it sound like the conductor was under duress and didn't know. Isn't the Bible clear it please God to have Christ die for us? The analogy to be correct would be the conductor was pleased to put his son on the tracks..? Isa 53:10) But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 2.) Before the train was coming the father should have put the son on the tracks... Rev 13:8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

[@bite-sizedshorts9635]

All analogies are imperfect.

[@IChooseJesus9091]

​@@dand4485+ Yes & a run away train analogy makes it sound like sin is benign, & there is no villain or evil involved. It's just a catastrophe that is completely random & accidental. And no one is at fault. No atonement is necessary, where no one is at fault. This story implicates the father as not being all powerful, & not having control, the Son as having no agency & no power, & the potential victims as being completely innocent. If the story was changed to a train full of guilty convicts, that might make it a bit more Biblical. If the Son was grown, & made a decision WITH the Father, in anticipation of what was going to happen, that might make it a bit more Biblical. And if Spiritual being like demons were included, as agents of temptation, & angels as agents of good & light & servants of God, that might make it a bit more Biblical. 🤷‍♀️

[@JimFrye-ub3kq]

Melissa, you made all your points so clear that even I could understand... But could have never expressed like you did. I'm sure this was a blessing to a lot of folks.Praise God and thank you, dear lady!

[@janearl2056]

Thanks for this video! I, too have not truly understood the title of “Son Of”. Thanks for clarifying it! He GAVE His life, it was not taken from Him. Praise God for His great and total love for us! ❤

[@dianegesik7456]

I have to take issue with one thing you said. You claim that Jesus was not the literal son of David but merely like him in character. However Jesus was of the lineage of King David, a direct descendent of David, hence the title son of David.

[@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181]

Well, you have heard, "An apple never falls far from the tree." or " . . . the spittin image of . . . " or "You are your father's son!!!" How about times those things were said, only to be corrected, "Oh, he's not my dad . . . ahhh, that guy over there is." Ol' wives tales carried through the generations that speak more loudly of the character of a man without even knowing his name or birthright. Jesus gave the sons of Zebedee the name SONS OF THUNDER - thunder has nothing to do with their father's name Zebedee - I'll bet their mama called them sons of something a time or two while they were growing up!!! Jesus called Simon His small rock or pebble, like "a chip off the ol' block' - Peter - had nothing to do with his name or his brother's name or their father . . . Jesus was the cornerstone of the church & Simon was to build HIS church upon THAT rock. Her describing all of this was like the harmony of a symphony to my ears!!!

[@AlexanderosD]

Good stuff Melissa! I first heard this analogy and thought it was a sweet sentiment as far as focusing on how the Father feels amidst the sacrifice. But it is woefully flawed! Pastors need to just....let Jesus do the analogies....😅

[@eric_emenhiser]

One of my pastors preached a sermon last last year from Romans 15 about taking the Gospel to the world. The sermon was titled " To Infinity and Beyond", and towards the end he said we need to "hear the voice of Andy" that says we ARE good enough! My jaw about hit the floor, it was such an awkward analogy.

[@creativeforthecreator7969]

Acts 1:8 ALMOST says infinity and beyond. Once I heard a very self righteous person say they were so high on Jesus they could fly. I said " That's not flying! That's falling with style!"

[@bonniemoerdyk9809]

Andy, being Andy Griffith? I've heard of some (liberal) churches using the Andy Griffith Show to teach on Sunday evenings. 🤨

[@bryanpratt5850]

@@bonniemoerdyk9809Andy is the kid in Toy Story.

[@bryanpratt5850]

@@bonniemoerdyk9809”too infinity and beyond” is a catch phrase that Buzz Lightyear from the Toy Story movie says.

[@bigedslobotomy]

@@bonniemoerdyk9809The Andy Griffith show did sometimes bother me, when they were in “church” and their “pastor” preached, not on Christ, but on “being kind” etc.

[@christianpatriot737]

Completely agree. Many times when people in authority teach about what they are considered experts in, we automatically assume they are correct. Rather than taking a step back and calmly, objectively, analyze it to see if it truly is fact-based truth. GOD bless you Melissa. 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@brittychiky]

I've heard of this before when it comes to an ethical standpoint but never an analogy in the church. Thank you for the explanation as always!! ❤

[@MrsMick105]

Well done, Melissa!! Initially, I was moved when I first heard this story years ago. of course, I've heard it repeated sense, and I have found myself feeling the inaccuracies. In addition to those which you pointed out, there's also the concept that the people on the train are relatively innocent in the fate that is to befall them if the conductor doesn't kill his son in their stead. So many things wrong with this analogy…

[@JosephMiles-hy7ow]

I haven't heard this analogy, and so glad I haven't. Thanks for this Melissa.

[@BrendonSchaferCT]

Well said. I have heard this illustration before, not sure if I have used it. But even as you narrated the story, I realized the holes in the theology. Thank you. God bless.

[@ltilley7343]

Never heard this before now. Don't get railroaded by the railroad analogy. Bad theology in so many ways. Thanks for exposing this Melissa. Good explanation of "son of."

[@NihouNi]

Thankyou so much for taking the time to pick up on this vital point. You’re absolutely right about people ending up with a view of God that sees Him as cruel because He was prepared to send someone else to his death. Your description of the ‘son of’ meaning has really helped me as I had no idea what it meant. You are truly doing God’s work and I pray you are blessed.

[@hectorlebron9581]

I saw this when I was attending a popular mega church in Houston TX and this was shown in a men’s retreat. This video is used to tug at the vulnerable. I was in a very vulnerable state and really wanted God and this video did get me emotional (very emotional). The more I attended this church the more I started to see how wrong their teaching is. One day I sat in front of my computer and watched about 4 back to back sermons and they were all the same sermon with different scriptures used to fit the sermon instead of teaching the actual text. One thing these churches do is tug on your emotions. I could not believe I didn’t see it at first but I realized that I was very vulnerable at that time. Thank you for this video because this is shown a lot.

[@bghoody5665]

Great discussion, Melissa. I've heard this "parable" before and had problems with it - I'm glad and relieved to hear I'm not the only one.

[@Landon_R]

Wow. Never heard this, but it sounds more like the classic Trolley Car problem from ethical philosophy than a description of the Atonement.

[@ScriptureShores]

Yes! It's a variant of the trolley car, just with Jesus sprinkled on it.

[@Landon_R]

@@ScriptureShores Right, and I can't help but think that reflecting on the attributes of God would warn a pastor off of this kind of thing. Here's my thinking: if we know that God's nature is the standard of morality, then we should be leery of any example like this that tries to put God in an ethical dilemma. I'm no theologian, but I would argue that by definition, God can't be in an ethical dilemma since that would place morality external to Him, and therefore we need to look for a better and more helpful analogy. This example also seems to fail to account for God's omniscience and sovereignty, as if the Father is somehow caught by surprise that the Son is in a jam and now He's trapped into making a decision with an imperfect outcome either way. I dunno....everything about this feels like it ignores who God actually is--which I guess was Melissa's point--so the moral of the story is don't try to shove God or the Incarnation into a philosophical Gotcha! My $0.02

[@joecoolmccall]

Bingo

[@thomasmaughan4798]

@@Landon_R " caught by surprise that the Son is in a jam and now He's trapped into making a decision with an imperfect outcome either way. I" God is not caught by surprise and always has a solution BUT the enemy of God is not as wise and will sometimes create scenarios to trap believers or even Jesus -- example being is it lawful to pay tribute to Caesar. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in a dilemma. It failed of course but also gave valuable insight and instruction. Render unto Caesar (or your employer or anyone else to whom you have a duty) that which is Caesar's.

[@ImCarolB]

My main argument against this kind of story is that it disregards the triune nature of God as well as the eternality of the plan of salvation. I have spoken with so many Christians who have a picture of God and his little boy in their minds. It usually results in them wanting to get as far away from the father as possible and stick with the boy who grew up to be the god they want. I have trouble deciding if people who have this view can be called Christians or not, but will leave that up to others.

[@thando_mvandaba9844]

Once heard this analogy when I was about 8 or 9 and I gotta tell you that I always thought there was something very wrong with it, I just never really had the proper understanding to do so. It was when I got to understand God's character and the meaning of grace for myself that I realised how completely dangerous and horrible analogies like these are to the Christian, especially to those who are new to the faith. Lissa Thank you so very much for making this video, it was very reassuring of who the God of scripture truly is❤.

[@jerilyncarey731]

I heard this as a kid in the 80’s- yes, it’s been around that long. And I remember it, because it hits every feel. I’m sure that’s why the evangelist used it. I’m so glad that you are correcting bad theology. Thank you!!

[@Lonman2]

I’ve heard this analogy before and was kinda touched by it being a father myself. But in hindsight I see it was just an emotional roller coaster

[@theophilus46]

tks Melissa. . . . . . .I hope may ''teachers'' who are surfing Y.T., hear this one. Thank you

[@conniekline9881]

I’m not sure I have heard this analogy before, but reminds me of one of those morality exercises, as being put into a bad situation and having to decide who dies and who lives. I learn so much from your explanations and educating on biblical theology and doctrine. God bless.

[@lizziehough8396]

Yes!

[@dougmasters4561]

Its literally the trolly problem

[@sarahberkner]

It's like that but that wasn't the point. I see the problems with the analogy but the point is to help us understand that it's the hardest thing in the world for a father to give up his son.

[@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181]

I agree, more like a medical triage emergency situation or Military leaders having to choose who to send to imminent death as a distraction to safe many more. Human decision making to try to weigh bad options!

[@jenellehardin2670]

I also have never heard this, wow. It really points to trying to 'meet people where they are at' in their understanding instead of offering them something different...like the truth of the Gospel. Thank you for your excellent explanation, Melissa.

[@outofmyelement932]

I had not heard this analogy before. However, all my Spiritual antennae went up when you were going through it. SO unBiblical! Thank you for sharing this!

[@jeffsmith1819]

My pastor used to share this many times! Good word Melissa

[@nikkilengyel]

This is a popular analogy when discussing moral dilemmas. "If you have to choose between two evils, which one is the lesser evil and why". It's not meant to be applied to Jesus.

[@wet-read]

We have to deal with such dilemmas. An allegedly perfect person/standard doesn't do anything except make people feel better about their action or inaction.

[@MultiSky7]

@@wet-read No, this always ends in Hegelian dialectic and moral relativism, with grandiose conclusions that sometimes it's ok to kill, to steal, to lie, to cheat .... etc. Than you push it and shift it so far to the point when it becomes legally justified norm (abortion). The Overton window. From this "choosing of the lesser evil" comes "my truth" and "your truth" - both of them killed THE truth - cause real truth is exclusive not inclusive. Since when is lesser evil something good??!! It's not. Evil is evil, and that's why I suggest you not to fall in these kind of semantic traps and logical fallacies. I choose good - I choose God.

[@wet-read]

@@MultiSky7 That isn't where I'm going with that. I'm simply pointing out that with or without some standard, (allegedly) perfect or otherwise, people still need to make decisions between two or more unpleasant options at times. The decisions might be really difficult or painful. Jesus didn't need to worry about it because he was (allegedly) divine. We are not. So we gotta make decisions and it ain't always easy.

[@muxion]

@@wet-read. the words of a not- God "jesus" would be the words of a deceiver or one deceived

[@DaysofElijah317]

Sorry as a father I’d save my son

[@Bad_Llama]

Thank you for this and your other videos. I like your honesty, humor and humility. The more we share our thinking about biblical things! The more we’ll think deeply about God, Jesus and the Bible.

[@BrotherDave80]

Amen! Jesus willingly laid his life down out of his love Romans chapter 5

[@happyandblessed5640]

❤ AMEN! 😊

[@lc3507]

That’s right! The Lord Jesus willingly laid down His life. John 10:17-18.

[@forgetmenot433]

Not a video I would've thought to ask for, but definitely the video I needed. I was taught this analogy in Sunday School when I must've been only about seven or eight. It didn't sit right with me even then and as and adult now I can't imagine why the children's workers thought it was in any way appropriate to it to teach us. Thankfully it didn't influence my understanding of God but it remains a vividly uncomfortable memory of mine so I'm glad to hear some sense from this video on what is actually true about God's character

[@philwalter3057]

Great post! Yeah, I heard this in the Bible College I attended. Now, listening to this post, I remember the verses, John 10:17-18, that states that Jesus voluntarily gave His life, that no-one, not even His father, took it from Him.

[@faithcouper]

Such a good, clear response. I’ve heard that story & thought it was odd but I couldn’t peg down why. Thanks for helping. ❤

[@trevortroutbeck1939]

Haven't heard of this analogy in Australia. This is all new to me and thanks for sharing and explaining it. ❤

[@snowberriesx]

This is one of your best videos. It shows how diligent you are with handling the truth carefully, and it inspires me to be more diligent and responsible as I continue learning and growing on my walk with God. You've been such a blessing from when I was a baby Christian a couple years back until now! ❤️

[@lucashickey579]

Been going to Church for 44 years now and this is the first I’ve ever heard that analogy

[@emg708]

That’s good! I heard it in the early 2000’s at the AG church I grew up in.

[@stevendirks6239]

Thank you Melissa. I very much appreciate your thorough studying of the issues and the clear and thorough explanations of them as well. This one really made me think .

[@seaknightvirchow8131]

I never heard this story before and you are right; this is so flawed.

[@omufirika2023]

Thank you so much for this video. I have heard it before twice. I love how you have brought such light to it theologically.

[@ladyphoenixgrey3923]

I waiting for you to say it so I could respond with: "That's mooooooooooooooooodalism, Patrick!" Sorry, I can't ever pass up the opportunity. LOL

[@kristaenglish8606]

My family will often say, “That’s heresy, Patrick!!”

[@Real_LiamOBryan]

I somehow heard that in the Irish accent while reading it! LOL!

[@intentionallyinpired]

lol modalism is a made up word that people use to describe their doctrine 😂😂😂

[@scholasticbookfair.]

All words are made up. ​@@intentionallyinpired

[@essielaura7973]

Yeeees🤣

[@new_comment]

Thank you for covering and dissecting this, Sister Dougherty. By the way, I really like your hair like that, it looks great! God bless your ministry!

[@ChildofGod98765]

Thank you for this clarity. Heavenly Father please continue to give me strength I seem to bear the weight of the world on my shoulders as a single mom, I face challenges that can seem impossible especially with raising two children with special needs. Lord I’m struggling to make ends meet, to pay bills, and to put food on the table for my children and I feel so alone. I’m constantly in fear. At times I want to give up. Jesus give me strength and renew my faith.❤️💕

[@silversilk8438]

For you: Matthew 6:24-33, Isaiah 26:3, Proverbs 3:5-6, And considering that God knows your needs, will provide for your needs, but the ACTUALLY important part isn’t this temporary life being “prosperous” (it won’t be!), but eternal life. If you are right with God through faith in the atonement He made for your soul with His own blood, then all the rest of life is just a challenge. It won’t last, but it’s an opportunity to grow in faith and find your stability not in the pay stub but the cross.

[@kathytincler2446]

I will be praying for you to receive spiritual as well as much needed material help. I know it feels like you are all alone....that's how it feels to all the 1000's of single moms but you are not. I pray that needs be overflowing in your direction. Resources start showing up, a box of needed stuff on your doorstep etc. Replace her fear with the peace, a calmness that only comes from You, Lord. We Thank you that you are always working in our lives, and You are continuing to help Your precious 'ChildofGod' and her children. 💜

[@sydney.g.sloangammagee8181]

I am adding my prayers for you to these others here!

[@FloridaDeere]

Great job on breaking this down, and making the distinction about that scenario and what God and Jesus truly intended.

[@GTX1123]

The better analogy I always liked is the town judge. He rescues a teenage boy from drowing in the river near their town. Yrs later the boy has grown into a young man, gets in with the wrong crowd, murders someone and is found guilty. When the judge prepares to impose the sentence, the man says "you saved my yrs ago from drowning. Can't you help me now?". Then the judge says w tears in his eyes "son, that day I was your savior. Today I am your judge".

[@kathytincler2446]

Jesus did not come to judge the world. Judgement is after he comes back for us. There was nothing about the boy repenting of the murder in this 'story'. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9. Murderers, rapists, robbers, pedophiles etc. who are repentant, give their lives over totally to Jesus as Lord and Savior, and turn in another direction, are forgiven, not judged by God here on Earth. Praise God!

[@GTX1123]

@@kathytincler2446 You missed the entire point of the story. He's BOTH savior and judge. He's either savior and Lord of all in a person's life or He's NOT LORD AT ALL in a person's life. That's the point. It's a broadside into the lie that He's a feckless savior who allows people to live however they want...

[@kathytincler2446]

@@GTX1123 Of course He is both but her story misses the salvation message. Her story is similar to the one Melissa just told,,,,.bad theology

[@deckape2423]

The point wasn’t salvation. The point was that God is both Savior and Judge. Just forget the analogies and read your Bible.

[@GTX1123]

@@kathytincler2446 Ummm, no it's correct theology because as Melissa points out, God is not three separate beings.

[@wifeoftim]

I've heard this analogy so many times. Thank you Melissa for setting the record straight.

[@AndreaWhoGoesByAndrea]

Yeah, having grown up in the church, I've heard this one so much over the years. There another bad one making its rounds now, about a father and his son in a boat with the son's unsaved friend, and a storm comes up and capsizes the boat. The dad saves the unsaved kid instead of his son because he "knows" his son is saved and will go to heaven. So many layers of bad teaching there, ugh.

[@bite-sizedshorts9635]

So which boy would you save, if you could only save one? No analogy is perfect.

[@AndreaWhoGoesByAndrea]

@bite-sizedshorts9635 the issue isn't that it's an invalid ethical dilemma for discussion, from a human standpoint. The issue is when you take that dilemma and apply it to God. I feel like maybe you didn't watch the video.

[@danielmaher964]

​@bite-sizedshorts9635 real life doesn't work that way, you don't choose, you act on instinct

[@lynnebvinson2888]

I had not heard this analogy. You are really good at explaining the theology around it. Thx!

[@ecologygarden]

One big difference is that the son in this story doesn't rise again from the grave ... unlike Jesus who thankfully rose to life again.

[@smidlee7747]

Also the big one Jesus said no one take his life and he has the POWER to lay it down and the POWER to rise it up. It took power for Jesus to lay down his life unlike us.

[@Stix_n_Stones]

Great point! So, then, what was sacrificed?

[@EugeneHolley-rc6ry]

@@Stix_n_Stones His human body that he lived a sinless life in. Romans 12:1 Tells us to present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service. Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. Verse 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, by him, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

[@Stix_n_Stones]

@EugeneHolley-rc6ry was the human body God? Will our human bodies still not also die? That verse suggests a works based approach to righteousness. Isn't that problematic for PSA?

[@smidlee7747]

@@Stix_n_Stones There is a difference between sanctification and justification.

[@caryt59]

I have heard this story for a VERY LONG time! Thank you for making this admonishment! It really needs to end!

[@FloridasYesteryear]

I am going to be 45 years old this year. I have been a born again Christian since I was 13. I have learned so much from you so keep on making your videos. I truly appreciate them.

[@cpcrn7036]

I had seen this video and was absolutely wrecked and disturbed by it. And I felt really guilty about that but still a new something just was not quite right and I couldn't put my finger on it. Thank you so much for your clarity and inside on this I'm at peace knowing that I can put this to bed in silent under good intentions but unbiblical and inaccurately executed message. Much appreciated. I really get a lot from your videos!

[@GC09Summer]

Thank you, Melissa!! I have heard that analogy. I felt weird *and knew so much was off with that example. Thank you for explaining so vividly ❤

[@rickwhyte7716]

Thanks Melissa ... I'm older and heard this decades ago. I knew it was 'cringey' but you provided a fine treatment of the problems in the story and crystallized the essential cringey-ness with great clarity. Keep up the excellent work.

[@woodb51]

I have heard it a few times and I am embarrassed to say I didn’t think it was that far off. Thanks for sharing this Melissa!

[@mrscindymargaret2736]

This is why we are HERE! Thank you Melissa ❤The mystery of God will NEVER be fully understood this side of heaven. Gods bless you, today and forever!

[@marinecorpswarrior915]

Never heard it in church about Jesus. Heard it in my philosophy class about ethical choices.

[@katierucker2870]

I have heard some Christians give this analogy. It’s awful.

[@titusthegreat7434]

I’ve never heard that anology before. But you’re on point. Very solid. Blessings sister

[@Brandaniron]

Correction. I am shocked at how many pastors deny the penal substitutionary aspect of the cross. I didn’t even know this was a thing until a few Easter’s ago when I heard a local pastor do a 13 part series basically “rethinking” what happened on the cross. Mike Winger does a great job breaking it down.

[@7bag7]

Those are the pastors that actually think! It’s a GOOD thing to question doctrines that make no sense.

[@joelrobertson251]

Why do you agree with penal substitution?

[@muxion]

⁠the natural man cannot receive the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned

[@Brandaniron]

@@joelrobertson251 because it’s clearly biblical. I understood this as a new believer in the gospel. I don’t question clear teachings in the Bible as it results in deception.

[@joelrobertson251]

@@Brandaniron , I praise God for your salvation and as a new believer I would encourage you to be a "good Berian". I challenge you to find me a verse in the scriptures that says the Father poured out his wrath on the son while he was on the cross.

[@JesusChristSaves.]

You're the best! Saw a video from you a while ago when you were exposing new age - even in the church, etc 🙏🏻 And loved you! You're a great woman of God and a great teacher in the way you break stuff down. May the Lord Jesus bless you and continue using you 🙌 Subscribed ❤

[@TheNemsue]

yes, I have heard this analogy as well and it kind of goes back to the verse”God has provided the lamb” But as you explained it a whole new wonderful meaning on God’s sacrifice for us!

[@robertsullivan6656]

Thanks Melissa. Well presented

[@DaveMiller2]

This is a variation of a philosophy question called "The Trolley Problem". The question poses a situation where the person could either not move a lever and allow a trolley full of people to die in a crash, or move the lever and save the trolley but basically kill 5 workers on the other track. It is meant to make one think about morality and ethics. Wrestling with a situation with no good solution. You need to make a decision and then explain why you took that course instead of the other. It's kind of like the no win scenario from Star Trek II. The problem is not an analogy for God and Jesus. So using it this way in a sermon is not representative of what it is designed to do and it isn't a great analogy for God and Jesus anyway. And obviously it doesn't come from the bible. So yeah, using it in a sermon isn't a great idea.

[@nathanlennon5990]

It has been used as an analogy of the death of Jesus, involving God.

[@sharonthrelfall7174]

Thanks, the clip about the train didn't make sense to me, your explanation bent my brain, but great I'll need to watch it several times to get my head round the subject. Be blessed

[@psyduck2747]

Always click immediately ❤

[@proggenius2024]

I'm an Ethiopian orthodox and I have always loved your content.

[@ThereIsHopeInJesusChrist]

Here's the truth: Analogies and even Parables, cannot 100% teach details of doctrines and theology. Analogies helps the listeners grasp the lesson and the main point of a topic. Case in point: the Parables of the Lord Jesus Christ. The analogy of the father+son and the train track may not teach 100% accurate theology, BUT it drives the main point, which is SACRIFICE. You can pick on any analogies/parables and see that all of them doesn't teach 100% accurate theology, but they drive the lesson very hard.and cuts through the heart of the listener. Oh, BTW: it's my first time to hear that train track analogy. And i got the main point immediately, and I personally love it! Your 1 minute intro of it touched my heart. Thanks.

[@ninjaked1265]

Just because analogies can’t be 100% perfect doesn’t mean we should settle for a heretical analogy

[@katherinec2759]

While this is true, why settle for an analogy that borders on heretical when there are so many GOOD analogies out there to use instead?

[@katierucker2870]

Yes, Jesus used parables, but never bad analogies to dismantle His and the Father’s character. There’s a huge difference.

[@waltk9492]

So true sister and so well explained! You are a blessing!

[@revcc1]

I remember discussing the Trolley problem in university and realizing that my youth pastor had ripped it off as theology.

[@Eric-ve9pc]

Good job girl! Just heard this recently in a church. We already have many parables directly from Jesus.

[@bethany45101]

As a former Jehovah’s Witness this has absolutely BLOWN my mind. 😮

[@del8566]

Amen! Thank you Melissa for clarifying "Son of"... Doctrine does matter🕊

[@BibleTalk419]

Great video. Never heard this before. But... Jesus was the literal son of David. Just like he was a literal son of Adam. The Hebrew word for son just means descendant. The same with Greek. Sometimes this word will skip generations. For example, Ezra refers to "Zechariah son of Iddo" but Iddo was actually the grandfather. I still agree with you that the analogy is terrible and preachers should not paint God that way

[@tonyfisher9961]

I was so planning to troll you cause I thought I knew what you were going to say. You surprised me by saying penal substitution was incorrect. I have new respect for you. 👍

[@lisabernier3588]

LDS is not Christian.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

"LDS is not Christian." Fortunately for me you are not the judge of such things.

[@00naenae]

Say it louder for the people in the back to hear you!

[@thomasmaughan4798]

@@00naenae "Say it louder for the people in the back to hear you!" That's not going to help in a KZbin comment. You can always try *bolding* a comment.

[@mattgunia942]

​@@thomasmaughan4798No Christian denomination considers LDS to be Christians. Further, LDS sent evangelists to Christian homes to convert them. Can you help me understand why, in spite of these, LDS believes they are as Christian as Baptists or Presbyterians, etc.?

[@thomasmaughan4798]

@@mattgunia942 "No Christian denomination considers LDS to be Christians." That is a meaningless tautology; any denomination that considers the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be Christian is not, to you, a qualifying Christian denomination. What matters is whether God considers this church to be Christian. "LDS believes they are as Christian as Baptists or Presbyterians, etc" I define a Christian as someone that acknowledges Jesus Christ as the redeemer of mankind and the son of God. As such, there will be many Christians not even in a denomination. But, among the denominations, the most Christian of them all is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[@patidsv4511]

I can't live this video enough❤. Thank you very much for this clear explanation!

[@lisaengel89]

Hermeneutics matters.

[@johnfleming8285]

Great video! I am a pastor. While I never used this illustration, I have heard it. But I did not think through its implications as clearly as you laid them out. Very thought provoking and well done!

[@HarrisonKelly-rs6is]

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[@SusanMelson-kk6ll]

Hallelujah!!!! The daily jesus devotional has been a huge part of my transformation, God is good 🙌🙌 I was owning a loan of $47,000 to the bank for my son's brain surgery (David), Now I'm no longer in debt after I invested $12,000 and got my payout of m $200,500 every months, God bless Jason Graystone fx

[@MarvelousOnyeubi]

Thanks to my co-worker (Alex) who suggested Jason Graystone fx for me

[@roselineonyeka6023]

Wow that's nice he makes you that much!! please is there a way to reach is services, I'm work 3 jobs and trying to pay off my debts for a while now!! Please help

[@IsaacBrown-mz7uo]

​@@SusanMelson-kk6llcongratulations to you

[@JusticeDickson-jd3sd]

Please how can I get to him