PATHFINDER 2E REMASTER | Problems with DETECT MAGIC

[@Josanu2020]

I have to disagree. I think it was intentional to provide some separation from read aura , which got the bigger change from the removal of schools, and identify magic. If I were going to add the HB you talked about it would be to read aura.

[@Terrishilliman]

Identify Magic is an exploration activity you can do in the game. It takes longer to do (10min vs Original Detect Magics 2 actions), but it still allows you to get information about the source of magic.

[@AshanderaiTao]

And there are skill feats that modify the Identify Magic activity, such as Oddity Identification or Quick Identification - which lets you do it in 1 minute or less, depending on your proficiency in your relevant spellcasting skill. Also, what about Read Aura? Are you just going to ignore the uses of that cantrip? Since all the examples in this video seemingly occur during exploration mode, I don’t see a problem with using the game mechanics RAW. And if it’s identifying magic during combat that you’re concerned about, well your character has the option of taking certain skill feats. I think the Read Aura cantrip and Identify Magic activity with spellcasting skills (Arcana, Occultism, etc.) are more flavorful/atmospheric than Detect Magic ever was.

[@davidsherlock5528]

I actually think the new one is more valuable. The way the old detect magic worked, all your villain needed to do was embed done ioun stones, cheap potions or scrolls, or something along those lines in the wall, and you'd never get any value out of it. You go along, constantly pinging necromancy, and maybe after a lot of investigating find out it that every 30 feet or so there's a basic harm scroll glued to the wall and painted over. Eventually you'd get to one, looks just like all the others, except underneath it is a finger of death trap. Yeah, the highest-level magic is there, but so is another one of the misdirections, and PF2's detect magic won't let you distinguish them if they're right on top of each other. All you know is where the highest-level effect is, not how high-level it is. By that time, you're going to think "ah, it's more of the same", and get blasted. As a DM, this was literally my first thought with PF2's detect magic, because the party is going to get tired of spending 10 minutes identifying magic every single time they get a false alarm and will eventually fall for the trap. There's no reason a moderately intelligent dungeon boss wouldn't do this - best case the PCs hit all the traps, worst case they waste a ton of time checking every single ping. It doesn't even have to be hidden, you could have everburning torches in plain sight along every hallway and place your traps under those. With the new version, you'd now notice the scroll seems much higher-rank than the others you've encountered and likely stop and investigate before triggering something. This would make creating an anti-detect-magic dungeon far more expensive, out of budget for all but the wealthiest villains.

[@nelsonirizarry1444]

Very logical and informative I didn't know that the spell was nerfed a little but your fix is perfect

[@josephpurdy8390]

1e ad&d Detect Magic spell didn't reveal the power or school of magic. The Nystul's Magic Aura spell was intentional implemented to reduce certainty of Detect Magic.

[@somecallmetimelderberries432]

What about casting Read Aura once Detect Magic points you to the object/item/area, then use the skill action: Identify Magic to figure out what the magical effect or spell is?

[@NVNGPodcast]

The issue of Read Aura is that it only works on objects, and takes 1 minute to cast. Also there could be some argument that using Glyph of Warding (replacement for exploding runes in PF2, and using another spell with it), or some other magical trap or effect, doesnt actually enchant the item, just places a magical ward on the item. So as you use Read Aura, it tells you if the object is magic, not that a ward has been placed on it. It depends on how the GM reads this interaction.

[@WolforNuva]

@@NVNGPodcast But we're talking about adding a homebrew rule to Detect Magic, so why not just homebrew the restriction of Read Aura to not strictly pick an object? Make it pick a target, creature or object, and learn if it's magical and what traits of magic it has on it.

[@MrShooter713]

Is detect magic a sense? Would foil senses negate detect magic?

[@jonwashburn7999]

My main problem is detecting magic has now slowed the game down drastically. In the old days, 3 rounds of concentrating let you know the number of magical effects in the detecting area. Now, you know there is magic somewhere within 30 feet. Is it a continual flame torch? Is it a trap on the floor/wall/ceiling? Did someone pick something up earlier and a detect magic wasn't used at the time? Is there something on the enemy you just vanquished? Is there something in a nearby chest? etc... It got so bad at some sessions that it that it wasn't uncommon to have over 1/2 an hour wasted as every player casting Detect Magic had to describe every action they took to discern what was magical (i.e. take a 5 foot step back, cast again. take a 5 foot step to the right, cast again.) This is without adding in the time for casting Read Aura. The DM grew so tired of it that he implemented a perception check to notice if there was more than 1 source of magic. We were still getting affected by more magical traps and situations as well as missing items (in one case a quest item) than we did in the first edition.

[@Ectar2003]

Elegant. I'll be implementing something similar.

[@WolforNuva]

Old version told you what school it was, the new version tells you how strong it is. So no they didn't just take away a feature and replaced it with nothing, they changed the function. Knowing the rank of a magical effect is is potentially huge and arguably far more useful. You know if a magical trap is deadly or benign, or consider a curse or spell like feeblemind is cast on a player, in order to counteract a spell effect the effect counteracting it (like dispel magic) needs to match or exceed the rank of what it is trying to counteract, so knowing what rank an indefinite duration spell is can be vital information in removing it without wasting lower rank spell slots building up to the right rank, or overshooting a high ranked spell slot.

[@NVNGPodcast]

If you're ok with losing base understanding of the type of magic you're dealing with, and just knowing it is one of many spells of a particular level then keep the detect magic in your game as written. But realize that as you get higher level, and the rank gets higher, the pool of spells grows because you have to consider that low level spells can be hightened, so a spell rank of 9th can be nearly any spell in the game, now with no context for what that magic can do. All I'm saying is losing the school info removes information from the players that was unessessary, when they have a system that they could have given you base level info about magic (traits) when you use detect magic.

[@WolforNuva]

@@NVNGPodcast Yeah it's trading off knowing what kind of magic for how powerful it is. It's not an unnecessary change because they do give you a new piece of information that the spell didn't previously give you - one that to me seems more effective and more flavourful (being able to detect magic makes a lot of sense to me that it measures the strength of the magic over the form). Rather I'm now thinking that reading traits would make more sense for Read Aura, and actually give it a reason to exist independent of Detect Magic (I don't have the remaster myself yet so I can't check if it changed any). Detect Magic would let you read the strength of magic, and Read Aura would let you read its qualities.

[@tinear4]

It’s too bad this didn’t have more time to bake before the remaster came out, because traits are a good thing to use, but spells and magical traps don’t always have them (as you said). I think knowing the magical tradition would also add RP value, but it’s another thing that isn’t well defined in the existing adventures.

[@alananimus9145]

Honestly this verbage fixes meta gaming with magic detection. Removing the context is good.