Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - All 13 Witch Patrons Ranked

[@Chrupignat]

One thing to add to Devotion patron or to Confusion spell in particular. Please remember that Witch as a class has a lot of enchantment spells on it's own list that can be learned just like in wizard's case. This doesn't make confusion here useless and you can certainly build a Witch around enchantments. Additionally patron spell lists should be treated more like addition to normal witch list, often providing access to spells that are normally not on witch's list. They should be themed but this does not always look like it. P.S. Hideous Laughter is an awesome spell when you focus on it taking the mythic power focused around it and possibly take the feat allowing to cast spell as a higher level spell. Then with spell focus feats this can go bonkers. Just like one time I mentioned my Sheogorath buid. I used wizard for that but witch is as good an option here.

[@dustinhanshew5883]

Recently start wrath of the righteous and felt overwhelmed with all the classes and options. Absolutely love your videos. Unbiased information about the classes and builds with good solid info. Thanks so much for everything you do!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you! Glad you have found the content valuable!

[@JockoJonson17]

Cleric domains ranked would great. 👍

[@Kirinboy39]

Hey man, one thing to add for Winter Patron is that it's a prequisite for Winter Witch prestige class, which furthers specialize the cold spells to be more powerful at the cost of fire spells being weaker. Still trying out to see how WW works, but on paper, I am testing a Baba-Yaga build of Hagbound/ Winter Witch with Demon Mythic to create some sort of a blizzard predator.

[@leninthebeaniesouhacker.2459]

let me know what you did, the hagbound witch sounds very interesting, but i see no builds for it online

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh nice that sounds really cool thematically.

[@Kirinboy39]

Generally, I am banking on her claws, natural attacks and touch melee attacks, so mostly focus on Str and Int. Choosing either an Half-orc with Razortusk, or Motherless Tiefling so to give her a bite attack, and then focusing on that for her finishers. Spells wise, looking at making her focus on debuffs and weakening, before going in and feasting on them.

[@MuppetLord1]

@@Kirinboy39 wait, you went winter witch but your focus is not cold blasting? Is not just full hagbound better then or am I missing something? :)

[@ShrympyRS]

I did a winter witch demon playthrough recently and it was a blast. Decent damage and good cc, but what I enjoyed the most was the Icy prison + any dex dmg combo to oneshot anything. I did loremaster1/crossbloodedsorc1/winterwitch 10 and the rest in Leyline guardian. Icy prison + Polar ray for a single target, or icy prison (mass) + Polar midnight for multiple enemies. Demon mythic path and sorcerous reflexes allow you to cast three spells in a single turn, so if you come across enemies with freedom of movement you can dispel that as well. Early game was tough though and you relied mostly on conjuration spells for CC and DMG as well as your hexes, but once you get salamanders ring and The Stormlord bracers you could start blasting.

[@thecombativemedic521]

I love this review. It stays focused on the game itself instead of the generic table top. Mostly just commenting for visibility. Keep up the amazing content! Big note about cold strike. It's a swift action without quicken spell. Which is fantastic!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Great call out. Thank you!

[@awallace0523]

Love your videos man. Great job

[@notalefty999]

Frightful aspect also has the advantage of no reagent cost over legendary proportions and can be cast on undead.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I forgot undead cannot have Legendary Proportions good call out.

[@motivateddad]

10:10 it actually uses the target's Charisma score to it's bonuses to saves so It's pretty useful to cavalier MC or any with Charisma high class MC.

[@SlanderedGaming]

As long as that MC is Lawful Good.

[@TheRavenShadowsWolf]

I'll point out that a dip into Oracle with the Wolf Scarred Face/Thiefling Motherless and stated specifically because you know you're going to go with a Melee build (which would naturally be specifically against the Witch class recommendations but COULD be swung in a Baba Yaga style RP) and then the longstrider spell, bear's endurance - I would take Bull's Strength personally - and beast shape might be more helpful. So it's not really a bad way to play; but it IS counterintuitive to an actual caster. So more Spellsword with a specialty in close quarters and/or unarmed combat. The mercy one looks like it's good for a life/nature oracle dip - Divine Herbalist. 7 ranks in DH Oracle would give you a fairly outside the box healer and it would benefit from Eagle's Splendor by making the spells you can cast more effective I think. Not too sure on that since the stat buff spells do mention they don't actually give you more spells... so It'd be questionable. I'm actually less fond of the spell component thing anyway. Because it's a venician magic system which already limits how many times you can cast the spell. So further limiting them with a component tax actively means they're just that much more useless to me. Like Stoneskin; or Legendary Porportions. You only get a few casts of those high level spells/and only have so many active slots so it's a tactical choice regardless... which marks them out as your Boss Killer spells just to start with. Add the component cost in and you're really ONLY using them if and when you KNOW that you need them. It's a little too punitive a magic system for my tastes. Really kills my desire to try a pure caster. (I tend to prefer not dying at level one because my HP value is a four- letter word) * My question for Ressurection would be: Which costs more... The scroll, or the component doubled up? Because if I can buy two diamonds for less than the scroll's cost, it could be the more frugal option (even if it binds you to take a character with that spell in a slot - which is still a "Justin Case" option because unless you're playing on the hardest difficulty and pretty much asking for it if you do, you shouldn't really get that close to dying very often) * I like to think of Justin Case as James Bond's younger 2nd cousin. It's an inside joke with me. Like you say; I'd rather go with an Oracle for the insane Final Revelations - or an Esctheclerge with 3 Domains thanks to impossible Domain. They'd do better at healing overall. If the tranquility thing was an aura with decent range instead of touch I'd remind that Ember does Slumber and built well Tranquility sounds like it would have been one more nasty trick up her sleeve if MC chooses to build like her - but actually stat-ed right. I would have set Thorn Body with the first version I mentioned... so it seems like they placed some spells that would be useful to a set build in the wrong patrons. : (

[@othergrimm6592]

About the Agility patron, you said that Polymorph has the same issue as Beast Shape, but I think there's an important distinction between the two. With Beast Shape, you transform yourself into an animal with the Witch's terrible BAB. With Polymorph, you can cast it on others (according to the description), so you can transform your party's warrior into another creature, which would be a lot more useful.

[@SlanderedGaming]

This is true and a distinction I should have made. Thanks.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Enchantment spells added to any Witch spellbook are not wasted because a Witch already has a very strong Enchantment bias in their list. Plus most Hexes function as Enchantments for purposes of saves. So a Witch should absolutely be taking it as a specialty school, and acquiring any missing spells in it only makes them stronger. Also, now that removing disease by ability requires a 1st Aid Kit. ("So it can't be spammed." How is a 1/day ability spammed? Don't know.) I absolutely prefer removing disease via spell rather than burning consumables that do not always renew.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Most of the spells patrons provide are also in the Witches spellbook so I didn't feel like it was valuable rating them according to what they already have. Instead I looked at each Patron based on what it can provide individually. It's 1/day per person not just 1/day period. Also what I didn't mention in the video that I should have is I keep scrolls with Remove Disease as well.

[@TheRealNemesisX]

An issue with your ranking of the patron's are that you are practically rating them as centerpieces of the class as opposed to what the majority of them are, which are spells to fill in the gaps in a team selection or bonus spells, similar to a wizard or sorcerer. I can understand the desire to rank patrons according to synergies, just understand that synergies was not necessarily the purpose of patron's in the first place. Because of that focus on synergies it was easy to determine what the #1 pick would be before you even said greetings.. In the tabletop the witch is a class that can stand on her own two feet. In the current implementation of the game - she's just an offshoot debuff/dmg/support class. Therefore depending on just what you want your witch to do and more importantly how big of a role you want hexes to play in the use of the witch as a solo and team member, these rankings applied to that metric would always apply with an asterisk, as what role a witch plays in a team especially in a team that does not focus on base companions will vary dramatically. tl-dr - Witches needed better implementation, She's just a spellcaster 1 level dip for iceplant buff, unless you're taking her in the team in the back row to mid section at the expense of something else, or roleplay purposes.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I definitely see your point but at the same time I don't think there's a superior way to rank them in part because as you mentioned they are not implemented particularly well.

[@benjamincarlson6994]

Frightful Aspect actually has an extremely important function, many Mythic Paths will lose the ability to use Legendary Proportions after the MR 9 when they become the thing their Mythic Path is based on

[@SlanderedGaming]

What do you mean? I don't think that's an issue I have run into before.

[@benjamincarlson6994]

@@SlanderedGaming the spell specifically says that it will not affect Outsiders or Undead. Iirc, when playing DLC 1 to test builds, I couldn't cast it on my Lich KC, because his type changed to undead

[@phantomvulpe791]

Insanity patron has to be my favorite patron as I like to rp as someone who is embracing the madness and causing fear on his foes which is reallllly good against enemies like Balors who can't pass a will save easily making it easy to win in a fight. Just a heads up winter witch is about to have a buff

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh nice I'll check the patch notes for that thanks.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

10:15 The bonuses from base Angelic Aspect only affect the one casting it, but the protective aura is, well, an aura. Worth reading it over again, because it's certainly not just a buff for the Witch themselves.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

12:55 Magical Vestment is still useful for pets (without barding), monks (that don't use bows), or Mage Armor users like Woljif, since if you're not wearing any armor the spell counts your clothes (fur? scales? exoskeleton!?) as armor and gives you the enhancement bonus that you wouldn't otherwise have at all.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

30:50 Color Spray, believe it or not, is not useless. It is determined by the amount of hit dice, yes, but the final effect is 5 or more HD, as in up to level 20 or 40 or whatever creatures, and it can certainly be useful for an illusion focused character to be able to stun several enemies at once, even for just one round. I wish other hit dice dependant spells worked more like it so they could be used throughout the game, but oh well.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I don't really count backline who have aura's because it requires micromanagement to keep everyone within the aura and I cannot stand that. Magical Vestments is only useful for pets until you start getting the wrist artifacts that provide armor bonuses and then it no longer serves a purpose. Didn't realize that about Color Spray thanks that's a good call out.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

@@SlanderedGaming But bracers of armor+x provide armor bonuses, just like mage armor, not enhancement bonuses. You can stack both

[@dagonofthedepths]

Well I mean, remove diseases is wasted until you try to use a kit to cure ghoul fever or something and roll a 1 and now have to use a restoration scroll or something next rest. Not really needed but it is a good safety net. But then again I'm jaded from Through the Ashes and my ability to roll under a 4 on healing checks multiple times in a row.

[@SlanderedGaming]

LOL I didn't mention it here but Remove Disease is another spell that I use scrolls for.

[@fedorlischenko4196]

Strength patron stacks well with the trickster mythic path (focused on athletics) and hagbound subclass. 20bab, a lot of strength, claws, and free curses. Unfortunately it's still inferior to shaman, oracle, druid, melee cleric, etc.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup if you are going to do it that's the way to go.

[@jasonbarkley4586]

a Scarlet Witch build would be Awesome

[@jezebel8551]

Great summary. I really wanted to like the Witch class, unfortunately as you said, the spellbook is terrible. I don't think the patrons really help either. Still great to have a detailed summary.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah the only Witch I use is Ember honestly. Cannot imagine picking a Witch for myself.

[@jezebel8551]

@@SlanderedGaming same

[@kylegivens3120]

I feel that the Witch Spellbook wouldn't be so awkward if the Witch class allowed you to pick another patron normally without using a useful Mythic ability slot. Like maybe every 5 levels you can add a new patron, it would make the class just as good as wizard. But then again a witch's bread and butter is Hexes so asking for the normal level progression of witch to include adding a new patron every 5 levels may be asking for too much.

[@SlanderedGaming]

It needs something extra but not sure what that is.

[@notalefty999]

Witches cannot pick a 2nd patron even with a mythic ability. They can select wandering hex. This is a fairly useful ability for shaman (who get 2 of them baseline) when combined with wandering spirit (its the only way to access hexes specific to the wandering spirit), but its rather bad for a witch who can easily pick all the decent hexes.

[@kylegivens3120]

@@notalefty999 Maybe Witch hexes should just be straight up irresistible then? That'd be cool and unique. Idk, it's like Slandered said it needs something extra.

[@MuppetLord1]

You speak a lot of using scrolls, I found that I did not loot that many scrolls, do you mean buy scrolls? and if so is the scrolls that dont use the reagents cheaper than the reagent?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yes I buy scrolls. The scrolls are not cheaper than the reagents but they are cheaper than having a spell slotted when that slot could have something more useful.

[@alex-uw4mm]

i wonder which would be better for a lich witch...

[@SlanderedGaming]

Depends on what flavor of Lich you prefer.

[@alex-uw4mm]

@@SlanderedGaming you the kind that points a finger and chuckles when the enemy falls

[@blackfistxu7953]

👍🏾👍🏾🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥💪🏾💪🏾

[@notalefty999]

I think you have placed too much value on the overall spell selection and not on how much individual spells can round out your build. In particular, giving weight to spells that are in the standard witch spellbook (which many patron spells are), makes little sense unless its the Leyline guardian and even then the value is diminished compared to a spell not on the witch spell list. You cite heroism, greater heroism and heroic invocations as good spells, for example, which they are, but these are baseline witch spells so its no meaningful advantage. You can learn them a level earlier than you are granted them by your patron. I think you also place too much emphasis on the whether the patron spells follow a consistent theme. This doesnt matter. What matters is if the new spell picks complement the prexisting witch spell list. Shadow is nowhere near as good a deception or ancestor for example. Weird adds more to your spell selection than all the shadow spells combined. Winter also sucks because cold spells in general suck. The only decent cold spells are ice strike (because its a swift action) and icy prison spells, which are good for the paralysis, not the damage. Unfortunately, there are nowhere near enough good cold spells to warrant building around cold damage. Polar ray is trash. Its less than half the damage of hellfire ray and 2 spell levels higher, and fire is far more powerful an element to specialise in anyway. You are casting polar ray instead of empowered hellfire ray. Even if you dont have ascendent element fire and do have ascendent element cold, the unholy damage alone of an empowered hellfire ray is significantly more (33.75d6) at caster level 19 than polar ray at caster level 25 (25d6). That is how bad this spell is. That being said, the strongest patrons are mercy, healing, ancestor and deception as they give access to mass heal and weird respectively, both fantastic spells in an otherwise lacklustre 9th level spell selection. Mercy and healing also give you all the tools required to serve as a primary healer, and weird with the baseline witch spells can allow you to make a very competent illusionist. They already get phantasmal killer and putrefaction baseline and phantasmal web is completely neutered by the nauseate being blocked by poison immunity, which all demons have. I strongly disagree that mass heal should be cast from scrolls. You will cast this spell often, it has no reagent cost and it scales with caster level. The other good 9th level witch spells are long duration buffs which you wont need to slot many of. Strength can be good by virtue of divine power, but this is extremely niche because you need a martial witch build. That said, you get it early enough to grab this and take EK level 10. Lategame, gold dragon can make you competent in melee also. Agility is great if you have no other access to haste, but that is very unlikely. Insanity is good for enchanters, but to be honest, enchantment is not great. Why CC enemies who get a save per round to break the effect, when you can just kill them outright with illusion?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Good point about the heroism spells I didn't compare that to base spells and I should have. I disagree regarding whether a consistent theme matters because I construct my builds around a theme. So while Shadow or Cold spells might be inferior if they fit with the Wraith or Ice Queen I want to create then I would still use them and I would want a patron that fits that mold. I do mention in the video that Shadow and Ice spells are not all that great. Mass Heal comes way too late to say it makes Ember a great healer. You cannot really build around that especially since she doesn't get Channel Positive Energy. Therefore I disagree that Mercy and Healing should be considered stronger patrons. I also don't agree that you should be casting Mass Heal because even though she doesn't have great 9th level spells you should be using metamagic feats to bring up the spell you want to use. Either Hellfire Ray or Weird should be used in those 9th level slots. I agree about Strength, it's constructed in a great way but takes a lot for Witches to actually make use of it. Enchantment is not that great unless you take advantage of all the items scattered around that increase your DC. You can get much higher DC's for Enchantment spells than you can for Illusion. Definitely easier to just kill them outright but I don't think that diminishes Insanity as the best Patron overall.