Patience in Storytelling

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[@JonBrase]

"I don't like how this episode left things hanging" is often a complaint about how anything dramatic will always happen, like clockwork, on an episode break. They don't trust you to stay engaged unless they leave something unresolved at every natural stopping point.

[@JasminMiettunen]

If this happens in every episode, it feels forced to add drama every 40 minutes. If it’s a season finale and the next season isn’t confirmed it just sucks, because often it never gets resolved.

[@cosmicandy4620]

literally the plot of the very only story 1001 nights

[@yourshoulderdevil5229]

I don't like when it's pretty much resolved and could've been finished by the end but they drag it out anyway just so people have to watch the next one though. I've seen way too many shows like that and I've completely stopped watching some shows like Once Upon a Time because of that.

[@LillithPlaysSims]

It's called one thing flowing in to another and audience retention. Not a writer, are you?

[@faeriexylily]

@@LillithPlaysSims It's fine when it happens naturally, the problem is when a piece of media does it too much - so much of modern media doesn't trust its consumers to come back for the next episode/chapter/etc if it doesn't leave it on a cliffhanger, and so always does. This drastically slows the pacing of the media and is a shallow marketing tactic; the much more consumer friendly (and respectful) way to write something episodic is to write the whole thing and then break it into episodes - obviously this is a ridiculous practice in reality and is simply an exaggeration of the point to prove it - or more accurately to write an episodic series in such a way that it FEELS like it was written ahead of time and then broken into the bite size chunks of each episode or chapter. When writers go out of their way to make sure each episodic chunk ends in a cliffhanger, it is extremely patronizing to the consumers. Overall it ups audience retention because MOST PEOPLE ARE STUPID, but it is still a shortcut that undermines the quality and integrity of the writing as a whole; it's the kind of shit that networks and publishers force onto writers to boost their (the networks and publishers) profits at the expense of the quality of writing. For example, a show that does this will see great viewer retention numbers during its initial airing, but a commensurate decrease in the longevity of its popularity; fewer people are going to go back and rewatch it. The most egregious example I can personally think of is "desperate housewives" or "real housewives" or whatever it was called - "reality" tv series that is about drama and gossip - I don't think a single episode ever ends without leaving some cliffhanger question or 3 or 10 to be answered next episode. TL;DR intentionally writing a cliffhanger into EVERY SINGLE EPISODE, especially if you go out of your way to do so, is both bad writing AND disrespectful to viewers, but it will increase audience retention

[@UvularBean81269]

My dad says he doesn't like movies that are just long action and chase scenes. But whenever the characters take a moment to sit and talk, he gets really bored. People these days don't even seem to have enough of an attention span for the things that they claim they want.

[@datfisheboi6519]

Does he react the same way towards actual dramas, or at least movies that aren't primarily action-oriented? Action movie protagonists aren't exactly the most deeply compelling characters lol, and if the central focus of the movie is fast-paced action sequences and chase scenes, it legitimately *can* be kinda boring if they stop everything to focus on the boring personality of the boring main characters.

[@UvularBean81269]

@datfisheboi6519 if he were to watch the amazing digital circus episode 2, he would complain about the truck chase scene, but be bored by pomni and gumigoo's time under the map.

[@tbotalpha8133]

That's how audiences have always been, though. Audiences aren't storytellers. They don't know what they really want from fiction, because they don't actually understand the craft of storytelling. They have a feeling in their gut that something is wrong, something is missing. But they don't know how to articulate that as a coherent, actionable request. Or, they'll just grasp at a shallow, surface-level issue like "this character is annoying" or "this scene is boring", and demand it be changed. When usually the problem is something deeper, more fundamental, that is causing the problem. Imagine feeling cold, but not understanding what air conditioning is. So you voice your complaint as, "I'm cold, someone start a fire." While an air conditioning technician hears your complaint, and thinks "oh, I wonder if the air conditioning is broken?" Then they go and check and, oh right, the aircon IS broken. The building would be a pleasant temperature if it was working. So the technician fixes the aircon and now you feel warmer. Showing that your suggestion of starting a fire was completely ignorant of the actual problem, and its solution.

[@ThisIsAHandle-xz5yo]

I’ve seen children have a better understanding of stories than actual adults

[@PokeNebula]

TADC aint for everyone. If you’re a gamer or developer, the sheer novel intrigue of an OOB setting is more meaningful to you than the general public

[@destinyyoung7347]

This but *_THE OPPOSITE_* : Watching a show with a friend that’s seen it. And they reference something that’s very important later in the show. *_HEY, DID YOU KNOW THIS COMES UP LATER??? THEY_** BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH* and it’s like… no. I didn’t know. I was going to find out later and you ruined it.

[@TheEpicGalaxy21]

*"Fun Fact! That Character is going to die a brutal death and the rest of the cast isn't even going to care at all!"* *_"...That... that was my favourite character..."_*

[@waffler-yz3gw]

@@TheEpicGalaxy21its genuinely worse when they try to be coy and its very obvious "oh you like that guy?? hehehe *scratches fat rolls* dont get TOO attached.. hehehe" SILENCE!!!!

[@darkthunder301]

"But if the show is good, spoilers won't ruin but enhance the experience" 1) If the show is good on the second watch then it will be good on the first 2) Some people _like_ discovering things and forming their own opinions as they go along 3) *I didn't ask*

[@witchhatter]

I absolutely hate the push against spoiler warnings, especially when it implies that surprise and mystery are inherently bad storytelling. If you're asserting that anything ruined by spoilers is just bad, then you're implying that the entire Ace Attorney series for example, is entirely garbage.​@@darkthunder301

[@dibbingsauce]

the best thing to do in that situation is literally scream at them. *"NO, I DIDN'T! THAT'S CAUSE I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS BEFORE! STOP GIVING ME SPOILERS, YOU BROKEN CONDOM AFTERMATH! STOP SPOILING SHIT FOR ME OR I'LL BASH YOUR NOSE IN ON THAT COFFEE TABLE AND MAKE YOU DRINK PISS!!"**

[@RoseKindred]

"I don't like how this episode left things hanging." Anime community enters, waiting for a season two for 5+ years...

[@79bigcat]

Or they break down and buy the manga

[@gunjfur8633]

Try 10+ years. (PaSwG)

[@trongvu1018]

i'm still waiting everyday (pun nichijou)

[@awfuldynne]

@@gunjfur8633 From what I understand, despite the ending teasing a completely new story arc, they never intended to make a second season.

[@Amethyst_Topaz]

@@gunjfur8633 You beat me to that! But mine was more about FMA:B and how the story felt like it could continue, but definitely not with the same name

[@zenebean]

Wait until the show ends *then* complain about something not being explained well. And even then first determine if it's meant to be a mystery that doesn't benefit from a direct answer. Honestly I don't think people are getting more stupid, people have been watching things and not getting it for a long time. Now people can just complain about it louder to more people.

[@seanmcfadden3712]

Honestly, hard agree, and not just with shows. Movies, games, comics, and books as well. I've been encountering people complaining that a movie or game is going to be terrible based purely on the reveal trailer! It's annoying. In a similar vein, just because a piece of media doesn't suit your personal taste, that doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to enjoy it. Sorry for ranting. Just been dealing with this stuff for a while and needed to vent.

[@jocoder255]

"life of pi is such an awful book - you're just left not knowing whether he was telling the truth'

[@VanNessy97]

It's because of 8 episode seasons and every streaming service rushing to release a new show all at once every month so you don't cancel your subscription

[@zaneharris706]

I miss 24 and 48 episode seasons

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

​@@zaneharris706that's why I'm glad dungeon meshi exists

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Idunno if I'd blame 8 episode seasons specifically. though I ALSO agree with the streaming service thing... Though even that I think is a symptom of a larger problem. The more "Stuff" is out in the world, the more inherent competition every creator has to fight against. This is what creates the modern writing philosophy about needing to sink your hooks into someone in just a single page of your novel, or a single episode of your TV show, or the first few minutes of your movie. There is just SO MUCH out there that people feel they don't have the time to watch/consume everything, and often feel sufficiently overwhelmed that they have to be ready to jump ship at any moment if they're not vibing with the story RIGHT NOW.

[@thebelovedlion2208]

Yet again, LA PROBLEMA ES CAPITALISMO

[@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard]

​@thebelovedlion2208 always a correct assumption to blame your problems on capitalism

[@patrickstonecrusher]

Once upon a time in the early 80's there was a comedy called Police Squad. This show was groundbreaking because it didn't use a laugh track to point big flashing arrows at the jokes plus it had subtle running gags quietly happening in the background. Despite good ratings and being well recived by critics the execs decided to axe the show because - get this - "you have to pay too much attention." These problems aren't new problems.

[@fallwoodcentral7991]

To me, good jokes are good jokes when you hear them in the background and then they make you pay attention to them when you laugh uncontrollably because despite not paying attention to it, the show made you hear it. I’ve had these moments when I was listening to a comedy video game KZbinr, Caddicarus, when I was working on projects. I’ve had to pause my work and the video to give myself time to breathe because some of his absurd jokes just uppercut you in the best ways.

[@emilysmith2965]

Everything about this thread reminds me of the Futurama episode where the crew has to film the series finale of Lrrr and Ndnd’s favorite TV show, Single Female Lawyer. “Weird plots make people feel stupid, and big changes make them feel scared! We have to make the finale feel important, but basically keep things the way they are. We want a C minus!”

[@0.Dragn.0]

“Storytelling isn’t dead, people’s brains are. They’re stupid..” - wise human on the internet

[@blacky_Ninja]

Or maybe we simply have a problem with the market being flooded with half assed Stories with flat characters that you never know if the story will actually ever be finished, or maybe just cancelled, which makes the apparently now mandatory „cliff hanger“ all the more infuriating. I‘ve long given up on trying out smaller series, it‘s just not worth ‚discovering’ anymore. The few gems amongst the rubbish are gonna be overhyped anyways, so i‘m not gonna miss them and can start watching them when they‘re done, but i‘m also not wasting my lifetime.

[@Emerald_Raven08]

That's an oxymoron

[@thwartjetterson1350]

bro just made this corny ahh comment up and framed it as a quote😭

[@TheDanibits]

I love how the two people almost argued, but then didn't, because it was a post about media literacy and they were both upset specifically because they are literate enough to understand things, and that meant that they understood each other. I wonder how many arguments on the internet (probably almost all of them) only happen because people just fail to fundamentally understand either what the other person is saying, or the fact that not all the information is contained in whatever bitesized piece of content (a tweet, meme, short vid, etc) they happen to be watching at the time.

[@JasminMiettunen]

I still cringe at people disagreeing with my reply to a comment when I had the same opinion as them. I think my original statement wasn’t wrong, but since multiple people misunderstood, I did edit it to clarify. It was exhausting replying to every mention being made at me for something I didn’t say

[@TheDanibits]

@@JasminMiettunen That happens all the time! You'll say "I love apples!" and they'll be like "Why do you hate oranges?" because they fail to understand you like more things than the ones you described on a tweet or a youtube comment. lol

[@taiyoqun]

​@@TheDanibits Why are you saying you hate oranges though? It's an important cultivar to many cultures and the biggest member of the citrus family. Honestly find it offensive that you would spout anti-orange rhetoric in the internet like that, it's a bit racist. Please explain yourself as to why you say you hate oranges, which you just said. (To avoid starting a chain of idiocy, yes, I'm joking, please don't answer telling me you don't hate oranges or we'll be here forever)

[@Gelert_AT]

@@TheDanibits Yep. The problem itself is not misunderstanding per-se, because it can go both ways at any moment; you could be reading a "hate comment" and want to respond accordingly based on your perception on it, or someone could do the same to you and respond to one of your comments thinking is a hate comment, when in reality none of them are. The problem comes when none of the involved parts realize (or care) that a hostile argument has been formed, and instead of trying to de-escalate the situation they both take it personally, as if you had the *need* to defend yourself when "attacked".

[@Axius27]

I remember a time where I was explaining LGBT stuff on Twitter to someone that I thought could be convinced, but then had then turn around and accuse me of lying and just trying to look smart with my big words that meant nothing. I scrolled back through the entire conversation. The only word that I would classify as 'big' was 'presumably'. ...I really have to lower my assumptions about people's intelligence. Try and work out how best to explain things to children and build up from there. You'd think anyone old enough to be annoyed at political stuff would have a decent vocabulary, but apparently not :/

[@blakeking1125]

I won't pretend that kind of thing doesn’t happen (it does. It happens all the time) but it isn't always the audience's fault. There have been a lot of movies and shows that try to cultivate an air of mystery, when really they're just trying to cover up a lack of substance. Not knowing everything is an important part of good storytelling, but you have to give us *something* or the confusion turns to frustration.

[@patrickstonecrusher]

Cough cough Lost cough cough

[@josephperez2004]

The remake of Battlestar Galactica. It seems like they committed to a big mystery early in the first episode, then spent the rest of the show scrambling to make sure they didn't need a hard retcon.

[@redeye4516]

I know it's neither of those, but Black Ops 3. If you'd only played the first mission and then quit the game you'd have left with a better experience than actually playing it in full.

[@comradewindowsill4253]

@@patrickstonecrusher i mean, lives up to its name XD

[@tahunuva4254]

That something doesn't necessarily have to be concrete answers, even. Twin Peaks gives you practically nothing in the way of explanation to its mysteries, but it's not a turn off because the substance is all in the acting, cinematography, and "vibes".

[@HeavyMetalHindu]

"This character is flat" not every random character serves a purpose important enough to take the time to flesh them out.

[@MR0KITTY]

And then there's One Piece, where a lot of characters that only get one fight get an episode or so of backstory

[@HeavyMetalHindu]

Which is great, but they can only do that because its an ongoing serialized medium

[@PipPanoma]

​@@MR0KITTYBut they are important, because they will return half a decade later and be plot relevant.

[@heartofthewild680]

Instead of complaining about the character being flat, why not take it as fanfic fuel, and flesh out the character yourselves? That’s what the My Little Pony Fandom did with several background ponies, and some of their fan interpretations even made it into the actual show

[@Kaitou1412Fangirl]

​@@heartofthewild680That takes work, and it's easier to complain about things not being the way you want instead of making something yourself.

[@valbrown3352]

It’s also important to remember that sometimes writing is just bad, and the thing isn’t explained later. Or sometimes things are left ambiguous on purpose. I think that it’s okay to want the story spelled out for you as long as you understand that when it isn’t, it’s not that’s the story is bad, it just isn’t something that you like. People are allowed to have preferences. I prefer watching shows and movies that are simple, but I understand that just because something doesn’t cater to my tastes doesn’t automatically make it bad. People should be allowed to enjoy what they like and not be judged.

[@ivanlagayacrus1891]

"leaving things hanging" is usually a complaint when they do it repeatedly, edging your attention so that even if they had the most boring episode ever with zero anything happening you might still tune into the next because they left it on a hanger. its honestly a symptom of the same things as the soundbite stories (consumerism)

[@TheM8]

i think its also a problem that some stories does NOT tell you the thing or show the thing ever. to many stories now exects people to explain away their plot holes

[@SenshiSunPower]

It's an unfortunate trend. I think it started when theory-crafting media became popular. (Anybody remember the numbers from Lost?) Content creators were trying to engage with media by finding hidden meanings. When there wasn't anything hidden, they would stretch to find something. I have no problem with theory-crafting in principal, but sometimes it goes too far. There's a difference between creators saying "there is no right answer", creators having an answer but it not coming across, and creators ignoring things they deliberately set up. The briefcase from Pulp Fiction, the mystery in Doll House. and the numbers from Lost are a good example of this difference. The contents of the briefcase are never shown, and the contents of the briefcase don't matter for the story. The characters understand that the glowing item is important. The writers for Doll House were setting up mysteries about the world, but the network cancelled it before they could be solved. The numbers in Lost don't mean anything in the universe of the story, and there was no significance in the real world. The creators wanted to make people speculate, then refused to give a payoff. It's still better than the rare but awful, "Haha, viewers, you tried to solve this puzzle we laid out, and we are going to make fun of you for how wrong you are!"

[@typoriver3651]

My issue with Little Nightmares

[@MemesToa]

This is exactly why I hate Kubrick’s _The Shining,_ because it confused me more than it scared me, and I generally don’t do well with horror. Hell, the movie confused me so much that I went and read the book almost immediately afterward just to figure out what the hell I just watched.

[@starkar91]

**cough cough** five nights at freedy's **cough cough**

[@blakeking1125]

Yeah. Half the time it feels like they hype up a big mystery, and then there's no payoff.

[@ashleylightheart126]

Its almost like the narrative of that conversation that should've led to two flat characters arguing, through character development and a 2 parter special, lead to them being friends.

[@Kirbman]

Always a breath of fresh air to see people on the internet actually work things out in a mature way instead of starting a long pointless argument.

[@ymmijx6061]

fun fact. narrative complexity is actually something that has trended upward over time. stories ARE actually more complex on average than they used to be.

[@Ikajo]

Yeah, this is just a version of "Back in my days!" I've seen shows forget a mystery they were dangling or going in directions that feels really unfulfilled. Like, I hated the conclusion of Lucifer. The whole last season felt like the writers threw out all the character development out the window.

[@FloodlightGamingReal]

Im sorry but from what i have seen, take it with a grain of salt as you may, only *moral* complexity has increased in the media i have found, and its mostly been tapering off with its uptick. Actual narrative complexity and things unrelated to morality and themes have largely been neglected and it annoys me. "Go here, do this thing, come back" alongside some quips and jokes and you have most of the slop that gets churned out from the tv machine, or the game machine, or most entertainment. Its become formulaic. Now i have no doubts about the independent entertainers doing their best to have real complex stories but they are a rarity, mainstream trash come dime a dozen.

[@Ikajo]

@@FloodlightGamingReal You just described the "Hero's Journey", troupe. So, nothing new at all.

[@tokatstorm9270]

Sturgeon’s Revelation: 90% of everything is crap. Enjoy the 10% that isn’t for yourself.

[@TheBluestflamingos]

​@@FloodlightGamingReal tell that to "Everything, Everwhere, All at Once".

[@SpeedyCheetahCub]

Reminds me of something Charlie Slimecicle said during his stream where he was watching the first episode of Generation Loss. He talked about how the show was marketed as a horror show so when the first episode was pretty much just comedy, a lot of people complained about it. They said that they started watching the show because they "wanted horror but it's super cheesy instead of scary." Charlie's reaction? "Yeah. Stick with it." The next two episodes leaned more into the horror and made the first episode scary in retrospect.

[@headphonesaxolotl]

Murder Drones in a nutshell

[@Dressup_Doll]

@@headphonesaxolotlThat show slaps.

[@thegrimmarcher202]

It, much like people's taste is not dead. It is sleeping in the mountain.

[@ICLHStudio]

I actually think it's less about complex or gradual storytelling, brains, or even media literacy being dead/dying (because there are many popular counter examples for each); but rather, open-mindedness to media that is dying most. If people are hyped, hear good things about, or are expecting quality from a peice of media prior to consuming it; they widely engage with it fairly, let it take it's time and say what it has to say, and criticize it carefully and on its own terms. Whereas if they let themselves get a negative impression before reading/watching (most commonly from either controversy around the creators or declaring it as the poster-child for industry issues, but widespread mocking does this too) they will bend over backwards to avoid good faith engagment; making every tiny nitpick out to be a medium-defining example of horrible anti-artistic schlock (and often gladly overlook those same, or worse, problems in some of their favorite media), and reducing all arguments to meme-able slogans in order to avoid nuance as much as possible. It's like people are so afraid of not having extreme opinions that they feel the need to justify absolute hatred for anything that's not a total masterpiece.

[@IronianKnight]

And I wonder where this trend came from [glances over shoulder at United States]

[@tisvana18]

@@IronianKnightIt’s really funny because blaming it on the United States is like a weird irl version of the problem explained above.

[@IronianKnight]

@@tisvana18 that would depend on what specific elements of the country we're talking about. I didn't feel like getting too deep into this shit relatively unprovoked, but listen, the need to have extreme opinions is quite literally the way the decrepit engine of US politics keeps turning over. That means it's in the government's interest to encourage people to polarize themselves and get entrenched in their politics. Meanwhile, the government has failed to keep businesses out of policy making, meaning it is also in companies' best interests to encourage people to be polarized, anchor their identities in their political party, and think less. What do companies affect? *Everything.* It's a pretty simple equation for ruining entire generations, and right when we ought to be getting our shit together to clean up after our mistakes from humanity's first "world changing powers" post-industrialization era. So in short, I think you're not thinking deep enough into this... which is more "part of the problem" than blaming a country for large scale cultural issues.

[@Kaitou1412Fangirl]

Dude, you hit the nail on the head.

[@emilysmith2965]

Yeah I want my baseline to be “I had fun!” I think that’s fine! We need more joy and connection in the world and stories provide that.

[@TheOtherGuys2]

My dad has this weird way of being completely clueless about movies. I've told him probably a hundred times, if you have a question about the movie, wait five seconds, it will probably be answered by the movie. If it's not, it's probably something important to the movie, so telling you would be a spoiler. One of my favourite examples was when my mom and I were watching the movie "Air Force One", and somewhere in the middle of it my dad walks in and asks "What movie is this?" I turn to look at him, I say nothing, as at that moment a character in the movie runs into the room and shouts "It's Air Force One!!"

[@venus_de_lmao]

Storytelling isn't dead, media literacy is

[@seanmurphy3430]

I have a whole rant about this. Long story short, media literacy isn't declining; if anything, I suspect it's on the rise. The problem is that the need for media literacy is higher than it's ever been, given how much of our lives are interfaced through media.

[@ButMadNNW626]

The thing is, media literacy has always been a niche skill to some degree. I’m 45 and remember times as a kid that, for example, my mom didn’t understand something in a show or film. Some people just not getting it is not a new thing. These Tumblr people are just now realizing it.

[@cloverlovania]

as an undertale/deltarune fan, media literacy has been dead, graverobbed, and buried again

[@shingshongshamalama]

"You like this character? But they're EVIL! That means you want to be evil too irl! You're evil!"

[@lambentlamprey]

@@shingshongshamalama No, I like them because they are well-written and funny. I built the volcano shark tank before I even heard of this show.

[@Krishnath.Dragon]

There are several shows on various streaming networks that use traditional story telling, where things get explained later in the series and where the protagonist occasionally is as confused to what is going on (or more so) than the viewer. Two that spring to mind are Loki (both seasons) and Fallout.

[@rumpeltyltskyn]

Falllout did it spectacularly. It was a breath of fresh air.

[@Krishnath.Dragon]

@@rumpeltyltskyn Doctor Who is another series that are excellent at doing it.

[@TheEpicGalaxy21]

My most recent experience with this is Spiderman Across the Spiderverse. For some reason, so many people seemed mad that it ended on a cliffhanger despite that being kind of the point AND that they already said that the next movie would be the continuation. *[SPOILER WARNING!]* Another weird thing is how much confusion there appears to be about Canon Events. Because Miguel outright explains this concept but also there are clear scenes and moments that outright contradict what he has said about it. Making many people wonder if it's a Plot Hole or something. When most likely they are meant to foreshadow that Miguel's idea about Canon Events isn't correct.

[@V0ID115]

I'm not upset that the ending of AtSV is a cliffhanger. I'm upset because no one told me it was meant to be the part 2 of a trilogy, as well as me having very little faith in planned sequels. Not that they can't be good, but so many things happen along the way and after so much disappointment in that regard that my default response to a movie ending on a "to be continued" is to expect unresolved/cancelled/garbage content. AtSV has evevrything to NOT be the case, but against many other situations these past years, I don't feel like holding my breath anymore.

[@Ikajo]

It was just that the movie ended very abruptly. Things were happening rapidly and then suddenly the movie was over. It was a whiplash and didn't allow the audience to digest the events of the movie. Even when doing a trilogy, you need to allow some of the arcs to finish before the movie ends. Otherwise you will end up frustrating people.

[@TheEpicGalaxy21]

@@V0ID115 That's fair, though I'm pretty sure Sony at some point outright STATED somewhere that AtSV was going to be a Part 1 of a two-part series. Maybe it's just me, but I'd say that a Planned Sequel is probably atleast better than an UNplanned Sequel. Since in a Planned one, whatever happens in the story has already been decided and planned since atleast the first movie. Whereas in an unplanned one it's more like "Whoops! This Movie made too much money! Guess it's time to ruin these character's happy endings for no real reason!"

[@TheEpicGalaxy21]

@@Ikajo I can see that, though considering that AtSV was ALREADY the longest western animated movie in history so far and as you said, super jam-packed. I don't think they were ever going to be able to finish the story, or even most of it in a single movie. It would probably end up being like, 5 hours if they did. Though, according to some people, this movie actually concluded GWEN'S arc. I can't tell you the details because it's been so long since I last watched the movie. But I believe they say that atleast HER Character arc was resolved by the end of this movie, so there's that I guess...

[@hmnhntr]

I think your last point deserves recognition. A character (even, sometimes, a narrator) saying one thing, and the world demonstrating another is often an intentional choice, either indicating that the character is wrong, or telling you "the world is big and strange, don't assume simple rules will always be true". Think about real life- our understanding of things improves constantly, often enough to overturn rules previously thought to be absolute.

[@cardinalhamneggs5253]

I actually find it easier to be patient with the story when I’m reading a book or a fanfic than when I’m watching a TV show or anime.

[@KatDoesCrime]

I also relate to this!

[@smol-one]

Hmm. Here's the thing. If you can't find media that you actually want to watch, you're not looking hard enough. Its very possible to find media of all shapes and sizes and varieties. It's one of the things I love about the Internet. What you might have to do, is no longer depend on Hollywood to hand that media to you. What's popular is often various degrees of dog water. This is for a variety of reasons. With movies, in particular, they are catering more to foreign markets because that's who still pays to see those movies.

[@smol-one]

Also. People have always been stupid.

[@asnaghall]

wtf do you mean by 'dog water'?

[@Borispocalypse]

@@asnaghall dog water usually means bad

[@Arkylie]

Me, writing a fanfic where I'm worried about being too obvious: --Nobody picks up on the details I so painstakingly laid out for them Me, writing a fanfic that turns on a twist I thought was particularly clever and well hidden: --First chapter's comments section is just full of people picking out the twist like I laid a neon sign

[@darienb1127]

Here's the thing: if you are in that deep for fanfaction, you KNOW how to scan story down, no matter the genre. Don't worry about it too much. It's not purely the twist that makes it interesting.

[@ToastyMozart]

The good news is that means your setup has been logically consistent. The other good news is that unless *everyone's* calling the twist early it'll probably still land well, and the particular typewriter-monkey who figured it out early will just feel proud of themselves.

[@Arkylie]

@@ToastyMozart Oh, it was *everyone*. Like, at least five people, right off the bat. One of them did console me with the thought that if the tale is well crafted, the twist isn't the important part. (Though it does make me nervous for another project I've been planning where picking up on the twist early might actually kill the whole experience.) But yeah, I'm not terribly worried about the fic not landing; despite my brain constantly trying to neg me to death, I have actual *fans* now -- a surprising number of them, in multiple fandoms (POI and MCU) -- and they offer concrete proof that my brain is just bad at judging the quality of my own writing. That's helped.

[@ambion19]

"people have lost the ability to be patient with storytelling" versus "the glut of mass-produced, frequently cancelled new media has lost the capacity to deserve patience." Blaming 'people' like one big personality is at best half the story.

[@hmnhntr]

Yeah, it really depends on what movies/shows you're talking about. With one exception- when these complaints come in the first five minutes. *Second scene of the movie* *Door bursts open, man in business suit with scar over one eyes enters* My mom, turning to us very seriously: "Wait, who's that?" Like, damn. We've seen the exact same movie. It's been less than 10 minutes. Wtf do you want us to say?

[@random_nerd8235]

*gasp* people having a civil disagreement!? and resolving calmly and with respect!? on the internet!? thats not allowed! get em bois

[@SakuraKotoni]

Honestly, I think some of the joy of stories can be just being confused because that confusion is where fan theories can come from, and then seeing if we're right or wrong as it updates. Sure it can be a little painful to wait on a cliffhanger but it's a good kind of painful, it's exciting.

[@futurestoryteller]

But this is why nobody likes finales. They cultivate their pet theories until they can't imagine another ending and then they're all blown to bits by the show having its own ending in mind, and then they abuse the showrunners for "ignoring their own story" or "what fans want" which subconsciously means disregarding their mostly cliched and predictable opinions.

[@DistortedSemance]

People have said this pretty much in every single generation, and while there is some truth to it, I don't believe that it's some kind of long term trend. It has always been true that popular media that requires the least mental effort, interpretive skills, and background knowledge will have the broadest appeal, and thus the highest chance of massive success. Look at the "penny dreadfuls" of the nineteenth century, which lead directly into interbellum period pulp fiction and comics, then blockbuster movies, and so on. So long as mass media has existed, the most profitable kind of fiction to create has always been simplistic, obvious, and overexplained. We just don't remember examples from the past, because they, y'know...weren't very good, so they didn't get held on to as "classics". And this implies that people who are willing to put the effort into interpreting a work, and who have the skills necessary to do so, have always been a niche audience that is unprofitable to cater to. Now, I firmly believe that anyone can learn to appreciate complex media if they're willing to put the effort in, but if the only media you're ever exposed to is designed specifically not to challenge you, how do you even start? Even basic subtext makes you feel lost, because nothing you've ever watched has asked you to read into it at more than a surface level before. And then, as soon as you express even a little bit of confusion or impatience, people on the internet call you stupid and bemoan the death of media literacy. Suddenly engaging with challenging media becomes associated with feeling like an uncool idiot, destroying any remaining curiousity you might have had in broadening your media diet. Which is great for profit, because it means they can keep making the same bland baby-food movies they already know how to make rather than be forced to bet on risky ambitious art projects. People aren't getting "dumber". They're being purposefully stunted in their intellectual growth for a profit motive while those who manage to escape it are duped into keeping the gates so that they can have one single personality trait.

[@rainbowbarfeverywhere]

There's also a bunch of other things that feed into this. 1) As media is becoming more and more global, mainstream focuses on more mass appeal. If it's not as popular as it can be, then it's quick to hop into the next thing that is easier to make viral. This doesn't only mean media that is easily digestible, but it's definitely one of them. 2. The internet is also affecting the way we have discussions. Sites are becoming more and more homogenous and having avenues strictly for discussion isn't as easy to come by, even comparing it to a decade ago. Social media sites allow you to have your own circles (which is so easy to end up being echo chambers) and values sound bites and virality over conscious discussions and thoughts. Unless you seek it out, you would sooner be fed quick thoughts and simplified opinions. 3. As convenience and the need to hook people is becoming more and more prevalent, industries are dissuaded from taking things slow. If a first season doesn't take hold, it's quick to be let go. If a film doesn't do well in theaters, DVD sales is no longer a good avenue for delayed interest or profit, etc, etc. I'd hope that cult classics are still possible where we are now, but that remains to be seen.

[@KeyboardTarantula]

Florida Man is Urban-American Mythology

[@MrVoyeurific]

Like a modern Robin Hood

[@theelementalgamer5910]

@@MrVoyeurific But with more drugs. And violence. And violent drugs.

[@futurestoryteller]

Florida Man is an Urban-American Reality

[@futurestoryteller]

It's a reality

[@thehydragoose]

What I love is watching shows that have mystery in them and slowly figuring things out with the characters and maybe have my own little theories before the plot is revealed

[@TheRealKingDedede]

My response to confusion with storytelling has always been this: “You’ll know when the story wants you to know”

[@pageturner2958]

People watching Across the Spiderverse: I don't like that it ends on a cliffhanger It is almost as though, this is a planned trilogy... And not everything NEEDS to be addressed in the second movie and, if anything, it is better to leave loose threads for the next movie as opposed to inventing a new problem for the next movie

[@warlynx5644]

The only compliant that I had with AtS was that it ended on a cliffhanger that at best I have to wait 4 years to get resolved, and at worst may not even happen at all. I’ve experienced countless incidents where a “cliffhanger” goes completely unresolved for one reason or another. Stuff like that is why I personally hate them and why I imagine a lot of other folks do.

[@beets_and_rice]

i personally really enjoyed the cliffhanger! i watched it with friends and we (along with everyone else in the theatre) had the collective “wtf, what was that,, it was AWESOME!!!” experience. can’t wait for the third addition to release :)

[@ARockRaider]

personally i lean on the side of "stop making everything with the assumption that there will be a sequel", especially with the fan fiction stories i have read because i hate getting deep into a story only for the writer to stop. it happens often in media as well where a movie ends with a sequel hook but there isn't ever a sequel for whatever reason, really turns me off.

[@haroldyoung2361]

Well, I think that was also because most people didn’t know this was going to split into two parts. I knew coming into it, and I was happy with the ending, but I could certainly imagine why I’d be pissed if I thought the movie was gonna tie everything together and it just… didn’t.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

I thought in that case the cliffhanger was fine because it was clear that there were still many things to resolve. Cliffhangers are not so welcome when they come into the middle of an otherwise wrapped up ending to tease the next big bad.

[@LordHeadcheez]

It's why I love Jordan Peele's 'Nope' so much! Without spoiling anything, it's a movie that leaves a lot for the audience to figure out through context. it doesn't hold your hand and requires a lot of attention and Maybe a couple of viewings to really piece it together. Which is why a ton of people complained they "didn't get it" because it doesn't spell everything out with exposition. In my personal opinion, It's the best movie of the 2020s so far and If you haven't seen it, try to watch it with as little context as you can.

[@uumlaut-]

When I was younger I used to watch movies with my dad, and when ever I got confused and asked about it he said "I've seen this movie as much as you"

[@fgvcosmic6752]

"This character is flat" is a decent criticism, though. Theres a different between a character needing development, and a _bland_ character

[@W.H.V.]

"it's a shame I'm one of the few intelligent people left in the world" - everyone ever born

[@MadHymek323]

* Just noticed the Clover bandanna on your sona!!! We love the UTY rep in this household

[@phictionofgrandeur2387]

*watching this video about storytelling fills this young writer with DETERMINATION*

[@IronianKnight]

Good on ya, my fellow! Keep at it, I wish you fine fortune on the path.

[@phictionofgrandeur2387]

@@IronianKnight I just have to take care of the Sisyphean tasks of dishes and laundry and cleaning the litter box.

[@IronianKnight]

@@phictionofgrandeur2387 Keep 'em coming!

[@mawillix2018]

Looking forward to whatever you come up with. I will probably leave a critical review if I ever consume your work. (I'm a programmer for a game, and I now love and hope for negative feedback. People are so afraid of offending that they don't send bug reports, they'll join our discord and go "hey umm, can I talk to you about something?" before trying to gently say that there's a problem. Luckily there's also haters who will go to any length to find problems.)

[@phictionofgrandeur2387]

@@mawillix2018 I wanna be a game dev too, but my game needs a story, so I'm writing books first.

[@DeathnoteBB]

Oh my god Twitch chats do the “Wait what’s going on?” thing. Especially if the game *just started* and nobody else has any further knowledge than they do, except for anyone who knows spoilers. And worse is sometimes *people answer* with said spoilers! Good god people! JUST WATCH THE STREAM.

[@reybenesmisasi8017]

As a writer and reader, this is genuinely a huge frustration of mine? One of my favorite inspirations storytelling wise is Cressida Cowell, who wrote the How to Train Your Dragon book series, and genuinely, when I tell you that the pacing and lore crumbs big and small ALL add up over the twelve books perfectly I MEAN IT. Every time I reread book one I find so many more tiny clues that perfectly foreshadow all of the future books and I turn into that Spider-Man pointing meme. But you can’t do stories like that on screen, and the way the online world has influenced our attention span and care for things means finding a good visual adaptation of the novels with all that same depth and build up is gonna be impossible. Producing movies and tv shows is more expensive than publishing and printing books, and like with books, there’s no guarantee it’s going to be successful. So you end up HAVING to rush things so you don’t waste money and end up like Firefly. It’s honestly still an emerging form of media we’re learning to use and I don’t think the collective attention span of the world decreasing is helping to improve it. I like to think that this is just one of those mistakes we have to make to grow and master that skill, but I also worry that it’s more profitable to keep us here and we’ll end up stuck.

[@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard]

"This is filler it doesnt progress the plot" No but it's fleshing out the characters, putting them in a fun scenario and giving us a BREAL from the heavier story beats so we arent overwhelmed and burnt out! Storytelling is far from dead, but media literacy is definetly declining, part because complex well written and non-obvious stories afent what big media companies want (its why they want AI to be able to replace people after all) and because of Anti-Intellectualism who pushes the idea that people who enjoy anything beyind aurface level enjoyment is acting like an english teacher abalyzing a book and nothing ever is "that deep" and that "if its not stated directly it isnt cannon, it isnt confirmed and thus you're making things up" no matter how clues and clever hints and connections the story makes

[@Ikajo]

I think people need to learn the difference between a filler and a bridge. A filler can, and should, be removed. A bridge connects different parts of a story without driving the narrative forward. Bridges can't be removed.

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

When you ask someone what filler is, they start listing tropes and I am exhausted trying to explain it to people. Here's how it always goes: No, Billy, the beach episode of Magical School Girl Against the Queen Regent of Evil and Torment isn't filler because it's set on a vacation to the beach. It's narratively important to understanding that Mika the Magical School Girl feels isolated and bitter towards her regular-not-at-all-magical classmates while she grapples with the moral implications of exploding a lifeless planet that had the potential for life last episode. On the other hand, the episode where she defeats a green alien at poker to win a plush of a dog _is_ filler, even though there was an action scene. It didn't do anything at all for anybody, and the plush disappeared from her room in two episodes. Nobody brings up the alien again. We learned nothing about Mika. We didn't get introduced to new magical powers. The setting did not set something up for later in the series. Billy: _Points at the TV Tropes page on "beach episode" like I'm the dumb one._ I don't even know why I bother anymore.

[@hmnhntr]

​@@YourWaywardDestinyOh my god, don't even get me started on people calling literally anything that didn't have an action scene 'filler'. But if the series doesn't have any episodes like that, they'll complain about it just being mindless action. They have to be spoonfed a story without realizing it's happening, like giving a dog a pill inside peanut butter.

[@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard]

@YourWaywardDestiny This pisse sme off as someone who actively uses Tv Tropes, which perosnally has made me garner a deper appreciation for media literacy and all the stuff writers do to make stuff happen Filler can be cut and nothing will change, if you can't remove it without the story losing cohesion then it's not filler, whatever you arbitrary like it or not is a separate matter Filer has turned into "nothing im interested is happening in this episode so its not impprtant", people have become accustomed to just "lore" being the impprtant bit and "big rveeals" rather than the characterisation and arcs and narrative breaks and just taking things slowly and enjoying some small interactions between character or doing a bit of experiemntation that shows us a bit more behind the mindset and goals of a character or what thwy think about x thing

[@YourWaywardDestiny]

@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard Oh, thank god... Someone who reads the words on the site. I have had so many people point out that a trope exists as a reason that it's somehow bad and NOT actually absorb anything. That site is a great resource for understanding media. People are not so great at absorbing the information. And I have to try my best every time... Everything has tropes! Learn the R E A S O N I N G behind them! LEARN! But it's hard going to convince people to do that.😫

[@skypaver989]

I don't think it's exclusive to kids these days or things being worse - whenever I watch movies with my grandparents, they will ask me questions and ask me what's happening instead of paying attention to the movie. It's endearing, but sometimes annoying.

[@ToastyMozart]

Same with my mother, she tends to ask a lot of questions about the movie that are currently in the process of being answered by said movie.

[@hastypastry6353]

I find this thread really annoying. Maybe i just haven’t been alive long enough to know but have people not always done this? like we’re mostly aware of older media that appeals to the highest demographic because it gets the most popular, so i’m really skeptical of the idea that all the bad media literacy we’re seeing is new. If anything I see mostly gen x and older interact with media in this capacity, meaning it’s not a new phenomena. It’s always gonna be the present, just because you’re noticing something now doesn’t mean it didn’t happen before. Also the whole “storytelling is dead, media literacy is dead” etc. is a really weird exaggeration in my opinion. like, no it isn’t? there’s tons of good stories out there and pretending that everyone’s brains are mush isn’t helping those stories thrive. if anything i think when big film studious and such make films that telegraph their plot structure and character arcs, they’re incorrect to do so. Like economically. It just seems like a lot is extrapolated about the entire state of art and the human psyche just from some common experiences. the scope doesn’t fit imo.

[@amythetoon6535]

i agree!!

[@hmnhntr]

Definitely not new, and there's definitely plenty of good stuff out there. Ironically, people saying "everyone is so stupid now, good writing is dead" is also far from new. I think some people really just can't separate their opinion/personal enjoyment of things from the concept of 'objective' quality (which I think doesn't exist, but that's a whole other can of worms).

[@haroldyoung2361]

I actually want to defend the woman for a second. Now, it obviously depends on how she asked the question, but everyone is different watching movies. Sometimes people ask questions about the media they’re watching because they want to engage with the text. Or, you ask questions absentmindedly, like “oh! Poor do! Why are they killing the dog?” Or sometimes it’s genuine question because they are afraid they missed something. I don’t think this is a denigration of media literacy or anything; I think we assume it is because people can now be more vocal about the stuff they ingest. Also, books that are hard to read and don’t give enjoyment until after they are done are great for some people, and not for others. Plus, art is always a mystery. If I am setting time out of my day to read or watch, I want to make sure what I’m ingesting is worth it. And it’s not like people haven’t suddenly desired simple stories or anything. People have always enjoyed ingesting a different variety of stories. I think it’s slightly unfair to say that our society has worsened, because it suggests an earlier golden age where media literacy was either higher or audiences somehow smarter. People are just as smart as they were in ye olden days (or even smarter) it just so happens that we focus on the worst of the lot sometimes. And, sure, maybe our patience has been broken a little, but I don’t think it’s as bad as people believe it is, but maybe I’m wrong.

[@athormaximoff4634]

Counterpoint: You don't understand this because the writers don't understand it either, they'll try to think of an explanation later. This episode left things hanging not because it serves the story, but because it drives engagement. Especially true of season finales where the writers have no idea what to do with the next season. This character is flat because a higher up said "I want a comedic relief character" and the writers said fuck it and went with it. The character *will* have some character development around season 5 when they realize people are complaining about how flat the character is.

[@futurestoryteller]

I don't know whether to point out that this "rarely happens" or that it is literally just a style of writing. This is how they wrote Breaking Bad. In case you didn't know. So to paraphrase Walter White "Do you really want to live in a world without Breaking Bad?" Also increased engagement does serve the story. It's entertainment. You know that I literally missed an entire Season of a show once, because I thought I watched the series finale. I've seen plenty of penultimates that wrap things up so nicely it becomes a surprise to see a final episode on the count too.

[@athormaximoff4634]

@@futurestoryteller I get the "style" part of it, it can be really good when done correctly, but I feel like for every show that uses this style effectively there's 10 that devolve into a chaotic mess with no narrative thread. But of course I haven't watched every show so my opinion is 200% biased.

[@futurestoryteller]

@@athormaximoff4634 I think I was being needlessly conservative by referring to it as a "style of writing." A poorly thought through, or poorly executed plan will feel ridiculous, the same way a clever and skillfully executed improvisation will feel ingenuous. In the end it's all made up, and usually in the same basic chronological order. A painter can start with a sketch or go one brushstroke at a time. Viewers can't tell It doesn't make sense to be upset that writers put something down and go "I'll figure it out later," but have no idea right now. That's just the artistic process. Basically all artists do that.

[@dalemorgan8263]

I find myself saying "watch and find out" to children often

[@branchminer1]

I find myself saying “watch and find out” to adults often

[@Doub1eSpark]

This post reminds me of something I saw. I was listening to a narration of an SCP(forget the exact one, but I am pretty sure it was the Infinite TP), then went to read the comments on the narration after it was done to see others thoughts... And people were leaving comments about how the story was too weird and therefore not scary, and how they miss the good ol' days of SCP back when it was just murder monsters. Like, of course it's weird, it's the SCP Foundation! The whole point is that they find anomalous things that can't be properly explained and sometimes those things are a TP roll that never runs out or a glob of ooze that smells like peanut butter lol

[@keiyakins]

people cling to the idea it's supposed to be horror when that hasn't been the defining genre for over a goddamn decade.

[@Legomicroman]

You just dunked on THAT part of the JoJo fanbase. "Araki forgot!" they always say, when something isn't constantly brought up, again. or when a side-character, who's arc CONCLUDED doesn't come back for the story. Or when a character "doesn't use this power or that power!", even though, it wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever in the story, to use the suggested powers.

[@paranoclue]

no cause part 3 was about killing dio so jotoro's mom wouldnt die from her stand but at the end all of them kept their stands anyway (except the mom) which doesnt make sense

[@MrVoyeurific]

@@paranoclueher stand is still there killing dio stopped Jonathan’s body from sending a distress signal that also forcefully made his bloodlines stands active causing harm to thouse not ready to use them eg josuke And holly

[@paranoclue]

@@MrVoyeurific ok nvm then, this makes more sense

[@MrVoyeurific]

@@paranoclue I just used hammon beats argument

[@Legomicroman]

@@paranoclue you just proved my point: 1. Holly Kujo's Stand never went away, it just returned to a dormant state. She got sick, because she didn't have the right strength of spirit or any strong passion, she could channel it into, like for example, Tonio Trussardi, who drew out his stand, because of his deep passion for good cuisine. it essentially overwhelmed her and her own powers turned against her. 2. Josuke Higashikata got sick, the same time Holly got sick, but he had his stand drawn out and learned to control it, due the admiration he developed for the nameless delinquent, who helped him and his mother out. 3. The Crusaders had their stands BEFORE Holly got sick! like did you even watch the show or read the Manga? 4. how would the distress-signal from Jonathan's body even affect people like Kakyoin, Polnareff, Avdol or even animals Iggy, for that matter? Stand-users who have ZERO familial-relations to the Joestars?

[@fishamaphone]

Nothing in writing is prescriptive. You can do anything, as long as the reader/viewer/listener enjoys it. The Thing is actually a great example of this: its opening is *designed* to be confusing. You're not supposed to understand. But it works *because* most stories don't do that. In most stories, you are given a reason to care about a character before they're put into a crisis. It's one of the first things a new writer learns: why is your reader going to continue reading if they don't care about your character? But because the theme of The Thing is deception, suspicion, and confusion, it works better as a story when the audience is confused. You're *supposed* to ask "why are they shooting those dogs?" Maybe not out loud in a movie theater, but if you're not asking that question the first time you see the film, then you're not actively engaging with the story. Similarly, sometimes TV cliffhangers work, and sometimes they harm the story. Sometimes the story would be better if it gave the viewer a sense of completion once in a while. But commercial writing is often less about creating a good story and more about grabbing eyeballs. I often compare the (first) Russell T. Davies era of Doctor Who to the Steven Moffat era, where Davies certainly had ongoing storylines that pulled you from episode to episode, but they were always secondary to the core story being told in each individual episode (two-parters and season finales aside). You always had a firm conclusion to *this week's* story. With Moffat, a lot of times the season arc took precedence over the main story of the episode. If your last thought is "monster of the week," but in the back of your head you're thinking "hmmm, but this other thing is going to have repercussions later on," then in my opinion (beauty is in eye of beholder), you're doing something right. If your last thought is "I wonder what the repercussions will be in the next episode," and in the back of your head you're thinking "oh yeah, there was also a monster of the week," then in my opinion, you're doing things backwards. But this, too, changes based on the purpose for the media being consumed. Anime operates on an entirely different set of rules from western dramas, for example. Like I said, nothing is prescriptive. If people like it, then it's good.

[@justsometroglodyte4056]

also all that "filler" talk, like no just because the story is currently taking a break doesn't mean your time is being wasted, also this is a STORY, BY DEFINITION IT IS "WASTING" YOUR TIME

[@alexwalker5716]

finally someone who gets it. I'm so tired of people acting disgusted at any episode that even slightly diverts from the main plot.

[@Ikajo]

Alright, I bite. As a writer and storyteller myself, I will tell you: fillers serve no purpose. If you can remove it without effecting the story, you should. What stories need are _bridges_ to help connect the different points in the story. That's where you place the break. The less important stuff. Unlike fillers, bridges can't be removed. Also, a story changing pace isn't the same as a filler

[@littlehorn0063]

What are the points though? What if it's some abstarct half-drunk talk about lamplighters? What bridges and points could be there? Can the little genres even use all of these tips?

[@Ikajo]

@@littlehorn0063 The rule of thumb is, if you can remove it without affecting the story, you should. That's a filler. A bridge still fills a narrative purpose and can't be removed. It just doesn't move the story along on its own.

[@justsometroglodyte4056]

@@Ikajo hence why i put filler in air-quotes, most people don't really know what filler even is.

[@illiardbilliard2355]

The ongoing mysteries were what made Gravity Falls the best show in existence. I'll never forget how fun it was to experience that series as it came out.

[@bland9876]

I've been reading through a book called Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and every single chapter title is basically a spoiler for what's going to happen.

[@aguynamelex3146]

After the Snyder Cut my dad complained as to what the anti-life equation is and what will cause Superman to join Darkseid. I told him what and then he complained why they didnt explain it in a movie meant to set up other movies

[@keiyakins]

He's right. It's a movie, not a miniseries. Movies are supposed to tell a complete story. Before you ask - Yes, I do in fact think Empire Strikes Back is guilty of this, and if not for the fact I always watch it as a double feature with Return of the Jedi would probably hate it.

[@victoriapulcifer6218]

I think modern writers are also to blame-- As someone who _loves_ media analysis and _will_ invest myself into a story for _years_ on the hopes that the story _will_ do basic things like resolve the story beats it leaves hanging, answer my questions, etcetera, I honestly can't recall the last time I wasn't severely disappointed and felt like I wasted time, sometimes even years of my life. BBC Sherlock is a good example of what I mean, modern writers seem to want drama for its own sake and either take too damn long to DO SOMETHING, or they can't wait for an especially cool moment to happen, so they'll bum rush to it without any of the setup that would have made that moment deliver on its intended effect.

[@futurestoryteller]

I think your problem is watching shows like Sherlock. I only turned it on because it was popular. Elementary was a better show than Sherlock when all was said and done. Normally I wouldn't watch that either but I wanted to see Lucy Lui play Watson. Kind of a funny idea, but not absurd. Also the fact that they hired an acttractive actress made me wonder if they'd put them together, despite vowing not to because they always do, but I digress. I've seen a lot of really good shows the biggest disappointments are typically the ones that get cancelled out of nowhere. I don't generally expect the shows that inspire tumblr fan fiction to be all that good. Those are people pleaser shows, and you can't please everybody.

[@SnowFox-gv2rn]

My friend started watching the anime Demon Slayer since season 4 is currently releasing. He watched episode 1 and asked lots of questions about why things are happening, and I just had to tell him “You need to watch the show in order to find out.” That’s the point of a show and the first episode, episode 1 should make you question things so you get invested enough to watch the rest of the series!!

[@AJGsTV]

My sister asked me if Taskmaster was a girl during Black Widow. I told her normally it’s a guy who copies movements. Turns out it was a girl Taskmaster. Most movies are written for people who already know the story, so she got a fuller experience knowing that Taskmaster is supposed to be a guy. The behavior is a byproduct of expectations.

[@callmecharlie4250]

I think my mom accidentally trained me to be way to good at figuring out how plots will develop. she's the type of person that will constantly ask what's going on in movies and shows, which would always prompt me to explain to the best of my ability. I'm rarely surprised by stories, and a single spoiled clue could easily spoil the entire thing for me.

[@melaniewilson1742]

I… really don’t agree with the idea that there’s a “new paradigm” of storytelling. These people heard a few things they heard others say and then took them completely out of context and used them to construct a narrative of being part of the enlightened few in a vast ocean of tragic idiocy. As others have pointed out a little, the examples they provide are often for less obvious, more innocuous reasons. Personally, when I ask questions during a movie, it’s more of a social signal that I’m confused, and not a sign that I dislike the film or am frustrated it isn’t giving me the answers right away (in fact it’s the opposite; it shows I’m engaged and interested). Either way, the whole thing just feels blown out of proportion.

[@socksinsoda9517]

Agreed

[@only_once_vids]

"I don't understand this part in a movie." "OMG! IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND! YOU'RE JUST AN IDIOT! MEDIA LITERACY IS DEAD!"

[@DannyboyO1]

I believe it far less dire. There has always been a type of person who asks these questions of media. It's not *necessarily* about patience or lack thereof. It can be an assumption that they've missed something. I don't actually know if it's related to being on the autism spectrum, because it is possible for someone neurotypical to find it very disturbing to suddenly lack context for events they're witnessing. So shocking they will speak out in a movie theatre. But it's also possible for someone to have never quite grasped the social cue of being quiet in a theatre, because when the lights go down, they can't see people well enough to read the room. And there's some people who just... don't care that they're interrupting others, their enjoyment has already been ruined by their belief they missed something. The most off-the-wall fandom I've encountered in recent years is The Locked Tomb series, by Tamsyn Muir. The second book is written in *second* person, like an old-timey text adventure game. But it's a novel. The fandom re-reads the books because there's *so* much they don't know they aren't interpreting right. And even being current does not guarantee understanding. THAT is capable of taking root in peoples minds so deeply, there are *cosplays*. Cosplays of characters from a book. From text. A series where each book is written from the perspective of the person who understands events the least. Written to bewilder and enchant the reader with promises of enough hints to contextualize the WTF... THAT tells me... the kids will be alright. And our "that one auntie" who always asks what's going on in a movie will continue to do so. And people will continue to find deep rabbit holes to dive into. Often nudging the author's elbow to dig faster. We don't have a lack of patience in society... we have the internet signal boosting the people who are impatient, lost, confused, and wanting help because they're afraid they've already gotten "watching the movie" wrong.

If I skim through a story and do not understand a plot point, I tell myself: ‘‘You would have known if you had paid attention.’’

[@Water-rg7gp]

i like it when im put in a world i dont understand and the world takes 0 effort to explain itself to me, forcing me to try to assume how it works, until proven wrong.

[@wyn9693]

Constant cliffhangers are an effective tool, but you can absolutely hate it. When a movie is a part of a series i still expect to see a full movie, especially if they don't tell you there's a part 2 until either right before release or during the movie. Or for an easier example of cliffhangers bad sometimes, doctor who, where an episode will end with a problem that is solved immediately in the next. Sometimes things are genuinely cheap, it's just unfortunate thst usually you have to sink so much time and pay in money to find out that you've wasted your time

[@TheBluestflamingos]

This is a thing that always existed. Since the dawn of cinema, people have complained about annoying friends who ask questions about the movie during the movie. It isn't "those darn phones". It's an issue of a personal nature. Some people aren't good audience members. Some people aren't big on wait and observe. Some people prefer moment to moment content, like soap operas, to slow burn stuff. Can't relate, personally, but calling people idiots with ipad baby brains because they aren't intrested and engaged in the things you're interested in is snobby and elitist.

[@Daeneiracorn]

"This character is flat" *stares at the helluva boss community that im a part of*

[@person-lk5kq]

hopefully this is mostly just that psychological effect where the negative stuff seems lots more prominent than the positive stuff??? i really hope the majority of people never becomes like that

[@dependent-ability8631]

only tumbler can be so civil

[@mothcatcher893]

The issue I have with this is... Is complaining bad? A person's thoughts on a story should only be taken at full value (by themselves and others) at the end of the story. So what is the issue with complaining? I watched The Thing with my family and the question for them was similar "Why are they shooting the dog?" and is that not the reaction the storywriters want? Experiencing a story makes you go through varying levels of emotion and understanding of different characters and story arcs, that is the point of mystery, why assume people are just dumb if they express the very emotions the writer wants them to experience? A person says "I hate this character", the other says "You don't understand their motivation, yet." The first person is not the one who is in the wrong. If a writer makes a hateable character and withholds information crucial to understanding them, there's a reason for it. Usually, because they want the viewer to hate them. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people can be dumb when it comes to understanding media, but it's ironic to see someone complaining that someone is impatient while watching a show, while being too impatient themselves to see how their reactions shift as the story progresses. (Also, p.s, "I don't like how this episode left things hanging" is usually a complaint because there's a breakage in the narrative pace, spanned out by like a week or more, being annoyed at that is not a failure to enjoy "good classical storytelling").

[@jojonono2679]

I agree that expecting or even wanting the answer to a mystery to be revealed immediately isn't good, but I don't think asking questions while reading a story is bad at all. I think it's good to ask questions during a story, even if those questions will be answered later, because it means you are engaging with the story and getting invested in it. If we all just waited until the end of stories instead of asking questions, then mysteries wouldn't be nearly as impactful. We wouldn't be paying attention to hints and clues to try and solve the mystery, we would just wait until the mystery is told to us by the story. We wouldn't make theories or speculation, because the story would just tell us if we are patient.

[@mizusenshi8172]

It doesn't help that some shows get cancelled before they're able to tell their full story. Even streaming-only shows are not safe from this (although, ironically, some streaming services have actually helped save and/or continue shows that got axed by the traditional networks). Some other shows last way too long because they are popular though (*cough* Supernatural *cough*). I definitely got the mystery thing with CW's Nancy Drew. Each season had its own story arcs, which were usually resolved by the end of the season, but there were also storylines that spanned multiple seasons, like the conflict of Nancy finding out she was adopted and now having two dads, or the curse preventing Nancy and Ace being together, which started in the Season 3 finale and continued into Season 4. Lately I've been seeing this literacy problem happening with the newest season of Doctor Who. I'm behind, and have been trying to avoid spoilers, but people have still been complaining, or have just been confused. Then again, people have been complaining the show's been going downhill for years (even Russell T Davies recently said the current season wasn't getting quite as high of ratings as they'd expected). So I guess this shouldn't be THAT surprising?? At least through Disney+ it's probably reaching a bigger audience.

[@3chovine]

This also is one of the issues with writing/reading fanfic or other lower-skill stories. Telling what is a mistake from inexperience and what is an actual detail or discrepancy you're meant to notice.

[@werttrichen]

Maybe some damage has been done by the fact that some shows just simply don't make sense and sometimes asking means your presumption of plot holes is confirmed instead of making you waste time thinking

[@Crimzonite]

A story that gradually unfolds as you follow it is a feature, not a bug.

[@stalebagelman8542]

On a good thing of storytelling, it took my dnd campaign party a year to finally start putting together the pieces of their backstories a bit, mostly because they were having fun with differing things, but the reactions and now new found goals was worth it, for me and for them!

[@wind_king-lh8zs]

Thank you so much for making these videos. I recently was diagnosed with a severe disease, but your videos have helped me deal with it. Thank you so much

[@squeaks5677]

The animation at the start was very satisfying.

[@scottcarothers837]

Typical tumblr "OH MY GOD EVERYTHING IS OVER AAAAAAAAAAAA" post. People are used to popular media not explaining things at all in a cheap effort to seem more mysterious. That complaint about cliffhangers is usually because low-quality shows will try to raise the stakes by moving the action to the beginning of the episode, but that just robs viewers of a conclusion (often entirely, because they like to do this with as many episodes as they can). There's no actual guarantee anymore that you'll get a conclusion, explanation, etc.

[@stefperb9531]

"This character is flat" it's crazy how much the porn industry changed the people's expectations about sizes

[@NineHundredDollarydoos]

Lots of people make jokes about how we're living in Idiocracy, including me, but realizations like this make me genuinely afraid that we're actually going in that direction, and very quickly too.

[@Max_McGamer]

My little sister went through a phase of watching Full House (a sitcom) pretty much all day every day. In the peak of this obsession, the whole family watched Close encounters of the third kind and she would constantly ask what was going on because she was confused. My mum called it at the time and said something like "this isn't Full House, you have the wait to find out". IDK why I remember this but I think it applies here lol.

[@andg2984]

I was not mentally prepared for seeing nor hearing the word "tapioca" in any media outside where i live. I now feel like i'm being spied on.

[@avg.player]

The absolute irony in explaining the story the host just told (at 2:40) 😂 Or maybe it was ironic 🤔

[@canolathra6865]

My problem is I've seen too many shows where things are confusing, and I think "ok, they'll explain later" and then they never do and the whole thing is a mess.

[@OneBiasedOpinion]

I had this exact problem with the WebToon “UnOrdinary.” There’s an entire season where the main protagonist, who is more of an antihero than anything, ends up reverting to his old ways of being a violent bully after the other strong kids in the school push him past his breaking point and trigger the latent PTSD he’s been struggling with. As episode after episode showed this beloved character reverting to a hideous tyrant who scared even the _worst_ kids in the school and actively pushed away anyone he’d ever been close to (including the main love interest), the comments began to take on a sour tone. People whined and complained about how awful he was and how they disliked the author for “ruining” him. However the way the story was written was not awful at all; it was in fact very _believable_ that a guy like him with the insane amount of baggage he had in his past would snap viciously and violently if pushed beyond his meager, self-imposed limits. Furthermore it was _clearly_ setting up several of the other main characters for some serious self-reflection on their own behaviors and worldviews, as their entire hierarchy gets utterly trashed by this one uber-powerful kid. By the end of it, the love interest manages to summon up the strength to fight the main character to a standstill and defeat him, giving her the chance to finally get through his rage and self-hatred. It’s a beautiful moment of forgiveness and redemption that goes on through the rest of the story to help him turn around not only his life, but how he views and uses his insane powers for others. The audience, of course, loved the resolution, but it was sad to see that so many of them couldn’t stomach the setup that led to it. Even worse, the entire story is an allegory for the consequences of living in a societal system where “might makes right” is the universally accepted mode of governance, and yet many readers were claiming that this character should know better than to use his powers to _literally_ curbstomp everyone who’d made his life miserable. Precious few seemed to grasp the art of the story being told, and it was especially heartbreaking to see the author admit after the following season that the destructive arc nearly made her put the whole story away because of how painful it was for _her_ to write characters and relationships getting decimated like that.

[@Captain.Mystic]

I blame game of thrones for being the most popular example of hype killing in a very long time. The second example being JJ Abrams. People are just trained to want stuff now or risk being dragged along for 10 fucking years just to get their answer(if any at all).

[@arkura1812]

THe problem is when theres a clearly engagin mystery. and it jsut gets dropped. it never gets answered. it never gets brought up again. the characters act as if it never existed in the first place and the viewer is jsut left there with a sour taste.

[@user-bk6xc3oj4o]

Or a character is killed off before they get a remote chance to be fleshed out.

[@greycat1246]

I hate when people act like shitty media existing and people media illiterate is somehow a new thing. As if popcorn entertainment and people wildly misinterpreting media doesn't have a storied history. Did y'all forget about pulp novels and the time people thought pokemon was satanic?

[@BenMarcWilliams]

I like watching murder mystery shows, and sometimes I watch with my housemates. One of them just cannot seem to hold off on immediately voicing her confusion. >dead body is found in the first 2 minutes of the show. Her: "Ohmigawd, who killed him?!" Me: "Finding that out is literally the point of this episode." That conversation may sound like I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, but we have had that interaction, verbatim, on multiple occasions.

[@pinkbuninja6536]

As an aspiring writer, I refuse to spell anything out. Mostly because I find even well executed twists in media to be obvious, so I don’t actually know when I’m personally being too mysterious or too forthright

[@theawesomepanda1lance241]

so we’ve looked at some people seem a little impatient with media to a frustrating extent, and, yes, that’s a bother. uh, is the conclusion really that humanity is now stupid, art is dead, hope is shallow? i simply don’t see it.

[@tesswinker2482]

Heroes. Every episode was a recap of the last. Had more commercials than story.

[@_ElectricBoogaloo]

One such show that I can remember from my youth that always left me hanging despite the fact that I read the book was “The Belt of Deltora”

[@MsOkayAwesome]

Aw i liked your thoughts at the end, cute ❤

[@thegrimmarcher202]

Alao, to any people who want more stories you can always go to older ones... Chimes at midnight is on youtube.

[@kaeldavidson6898]

I wait for a character to be fleshed out... and I become sad pretty often. Cause it rarely happens nowadays

[@verylostdoommarauder]

I feel like this is more an issue of negativity bias. You're probably more likely to remember a complaint, especially if you disagree with it in some way, compared to praise of something.

[@gaghhuh2943]

The opposite is sometimes also true- People complain that some twist was obvious and expected even though the author intentionally left hints. Its not there to surprise you by itself, the interesting part is what happens after and how it affects the characters