Patrick Sullivan on Game Design at SCGCOL

Check out the latest TCG news and info!
Get the latest SCGCON updates here! scgcon.starcit...
Save big with this week’s sale: starcitygames....
Get the latest MTG cards: starcitygames....
Get MTG news, strategy, and deals delivered to your inbox: starcitygames....
More Magic: The Gathering Videos!
- Commander VS: bit.ly/3rSsT5b
- Upgrades: bit.ly/3vOJxUt
Like us on Facebook: / starcitygames
Follow us on Twitter: / starcitygames
Follow us on Instagram: / starcitygames
Always buying singles/sealed products and store inventories at starcitygames.com
For business inquiries, email [e-mail]
Star City Games is the world's premier TCG retailer & event organizer.

[@haydenb4235]

I still can’t believe that a card based on a Spanish vampire isn’t a vampire in the set with the Spanish vampire faction

[@Nic1700]

I would love to see more of the great Patrick and Cedric conversations uploaded as single videos here.

[@soxwon04]

Check out Cedric's podcast: Cedtalks. W/e P sulli is on they seem to have good game design discussions

[@omartadeo2530]

i know Im asking randomly but does someone know a tool to get back into an instagram account..? I was stupid forgot the account password. I appreciate any tricks you can give me

[@omartadeo2530]

@Tatum Edgar Thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site on google and Im in the hacking process now. I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.

[@omartadeo2530]

@Tatum Edgar it worked and I now got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D Thanks so much, you saved my account!

[@tatumedgar7624]

@Omar Tadeo glad I could help xD

[@Malaveylo]

"If this isn't 4x in every deck until it leaves Standard you have bigger problems, because the best deck in format is apparently Search for Azcanta hard control with 4x (insert boring uninteractive card here)" *Stares at WAR meta*

[@williamaitken7533]

This card being outrageously powerful and then basically never seeing play because there were more outrageously powerful cards and combos printed within the next year was something else.

[@nathanwilkins6107]

Hey, I’m from the future. It gets worse

[@verpast]

Every once in a while I revisit this video to appreciate the depths of intelligence and knowledge Patrick showcases here. Fantastic analogies helping the viewers to understand the theoretical knowledge of both generic UX and design as well as the issue contextual to MTG. Brilliant.

[@BrokenChampion]

So happy you guys posted this. Was salivating listening to this live yesterday.

[@tiltilfing]

They missed clipping the part where the chucabaca is the final boss on ixalan!! Lol best mtg lore ever!!

[@OFSheep]

Standing in the desolate wasteland after Uro earns its 4th ban, wondering when Sullivan will get his due respect for being entirely right, building tiny altars out of the dust and silt that remains of competitive Magic.

[@Brawler_1337]

And three months later with competitive Magic no longer being a thing. Wizards and Hasbro are milking this game dry, and when there’s nothing left they’ll simply discard the husk.

[@SenorTallon]

It's February 2021, and I just keep coming back to this video. Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath was just banned in 3 formats after completely dominating with immediate, repeatable value. I wonder if things are ever going back to design like Baneslayer Angel being top-of-the-line.

[@gunararayhanramadhan2304]

Late reply, but considering that the OG Titans released immediately after Baneslayer... Nope, nada.

[@mooseplays2979]

8:10 “Gonna be 4x throughout it’s lifetime. If it’s not 4x, there are bigger problems” Welp, it’s a year and a half later and chupacapra is basically unplayable in standard thanks to War of the Spark lmaoooooo

[@ValueRobot]

WIZARDS YOU GOT SOME 'SPLAININ' TO DO

[@s3n4]

This isn't a rant about cards cards being too good. This is a rant that playing cards you like and enjoy playing are a waste of time and money because there is no dramatic tension in the games you play. You aren't going to have fun playing merfolk or dinosaurs when the deck is too easily disrupted by value creatures like this. Why would I ever play any other three drop other than Rogue Refiner/Whirler Virtuoso when all other three drops are simply just worse than them and don't generate any value near the level of those cards. Because Ravenous Chupacabra card is so good i'm essentially FORCED to play Bristling Hydra because If I just dump a 4 drop like Gisela, the Broken Blade and my opponent plays this they haven't put any investment in their choice, they don't even lose resources because this kill spell leaves a 2/2 behind. At least with Doom Blade there's a cost to using it, because it leaves nothing behind and you actually spent a card on it. People want Standard to be somewhat diverse and an 'introduction' competitive format to newer players, but cards like this actively remove any chance of diversity in the format and just piss off new players and make them less likely to come back to play the game again. PS: I'm playing Temur Energy myself because honestly, what other choice do I have at this point?

[@just-some-menace6138]

So what are you playing now after you know what happened?

[@jessehunter362]

i hope you're doing good

[@sashn1]

3:31 i love how passionately he says "it's ESPECIALLY DUBIOUS to do.. IN A TRIBAL BLOCK!!!" 😂😂

[@markdonaghy3851]

I love how much Cedric enjoyed setting PSully up for a rant here and how well he threw a couple of scg plugs in there so they'd allow PSully to continue his rant rather than cut to commercials. Cedric set it up cause he knew it would trigger Patrick and I loved seeing it. I love seeing just how well these two know each other, interact with and support each other. Easily one of, if not THE best commentator tag team this game has. Also I agree greatly with the general point behind what Patrick was saying. The problem isn't that removal isn't good enough, the problem is that the value etb do something abilities of creatures nowadays has become way too pushed and takes away from synergistic strategies being valid in a set that is supposed to be about tribal synergies. Compare creatures from a few years ago like courser of kruphix that led to incremental value over time as opposed to rogue refiner or ravenous chupacabra that have overly powerful etb abilities attached to their 3/2 or 2/2 bodies for their mana cost. Value creature cards like ravenous chupacabra make big interesting bomb cards like Azor unplayable in a competitive standard format because despite what it could do if you untapped with it, it doesn't do enough the literal second that it enters the battlefield and that fact is not only incredibly sad in regards to variance in potential playable standard decks, it is also just incredibly bad design. A 6/6 flying mythic rare with sphinx's rev attached to it when it attacks should not be unplayable and yet somehow it is because of cards like ravenous chupacabra. What needs to happen isn't that removal needs to be made better, rather these cheap costing etb value creatures need to be nerfed to some degree and go back to providing incremental value over time so more cards can start to see play and the format can actually have some genuine level of variance again.

[@metalsabatico]

Great rant. I'm tired of wotc pushing the midrange value cards these last years. Most decks nowadays revolve around creature etbs. I hope they change that for the sake of the game.

[@zachstackhouse2785]

LoL I love the just deadened look on Cedric's face as he goes "take it away" to Patrick.

[@Darkneszora]

Don't think they would be talking about this on the channel fireball stream this weekend lol

[@Totescolin]

Taking the watch off is the most series sign of something about to go down.

[@utkphilobio]

Wow. What a prescient take given where Standard has gone since.

[@Jatch25]

This is great. I know they were giving thoughts on a lot of different RIX cards this weekend, would be nice to see those spliced together in a video.

[@bedwablackburn]

PSully A+ rant. Thank you for snipping this.

[@arcaneprofet]

I was so happy they didn’t go to commercial break when Mr.Sullivan went off about this guy. It really proves that SCG cares about the gameplay and the community.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

It is all about instant gratification with no build up, investment, or patience. It is possibly a commentary on today's culture, but it is very evident that design doesn't value delayed payoffs and are more invested in having players get that hit of upside when they play a card.

[@soxwon04]

I don't know it's that as much as they wanted to make creatures better. Short of putting haste on everything, stapling spells to creatures makes them more exciting and better against removal.

[@jeskaisekai_6785]

Each time a card is banned I rewatch this video (was about to comment this 2 weeks ago for Uro but now I'm here after Omnath). Magic needs more people like Sullivan. Full stop. Big splahy creatures are destroyng replayability and that is destroying magic. Maybe mtg won't die but for a lot of people, myself included, it changed fo the worse. I'm hoping it can change again for the better

[@goldcreeper7376]

Amazing how the comments here are all about various states of standard, and now every format ever is being ruined by companions because they didn't reign in play design

[@renatop3]

This card looks like a Hour of Devastation card that they forgot to print.

[@JacintoVG]

Renato Siviero dos Santos Chupacabras are Mesoamerican culture, and have nothing to do with Egypt. They are a perfect fit for this set.

[@silverfangmoonhunter]

AlchemyOmega He's talking about the stats, cmc and text box, not it's art or type which is basically just flavor text.

[@JacintoVG]

Silver Fang no he isn't. That doesn't even make any sense.

[@silverfangmoonhunter]

AlchemyOmega Or youre inserting your own argument for him.

[@JacintoVG]

Silver Fang "Looks like" pretty clearly implies that he's talking about it aesthetically, and if you stripped the card of its flavor it'd be such a generic card that it wouldn't fit in one set more than any other. In fact, most of the removal in amonkhet was in -1/-1 counter design space. This card fits there much less than it fits here both on functionality and flavor, but I find the argument that it fits better in amonkhet by its design much worse than the argument that it doesn't fit because of aesthetics. I'm going to give him credit and assume he was making a better argument than you.

[@golgariguy]

And now we have Fury and Solitude 😅

[@Marionettetc]

Preach it brother! Bad game design at it's finest, no counterplay

[@phillycosidae756]

Ravenous Chupacabra is a 4 of in the current top deck in standard. Dinosaur and Merfolk tribal decks still MIA.

[@aLocalGuy312]

Damn Patrick is as always gigabased, love that guy, never change my king

[@zimoy.701]

Oko is looking at you.

[@jrjamesson]

might the new sphinx legend actually be an example of what Patrick does want to see? Unless your opponent has a chupacabra, or a scarab god and a chupacabra in the graveyard to reanimate (i.e. specific answers), it likely is going to untap once and attack to get you the attack trigger and likely make you run away with the game.

[@mridonkulus6024]

iN a nutshell patrick wants incremental advantage, risk taking and investment to be the format again. Immediate ETB is nice but it shouldnt be the basis of design for all the creatures in the deck

[@alexspeedwagon3701]

Prophetic

[@prevara5162]

Who knew standard would get so much worse

[@Deakonavory2002]

This is why I play Commander in a semi competitive, semi fun/flavorful environment. Sullivan touched on all the points that made me loose interest in standard format and the blandness of the flavors of the cards being used and decks being created. Not to mention the tention and drama NOT being created any more in my games. Good review.

[@tiltilfing]

Imagine blinking the beast horror lol

[@Biospark88]

tiltilfing Thank the stars that Felidar is banned, right?

[@tiltilfing]

there is still the scarab god lol the beast horror is the god's servants like Patrick and Cedric descriibed

[@TauntedSymbol]

I will abuse that dog in a panharmonicon deck, that's pretty much the same thing

[@andrespineiroc]

AMAZING VID ! Well done Patrick!

[@EiJoYuJo]

This was way more than correct!

[@dantrick7216]

More of this!

[@jays1de]

patrick is the man!!!

[@JapalenoJames]

Man this is so true.

[@TreasureTrain]

god i love cedric

[@Dreadsithar]

got a contender for next ban wave

[@Need4Needle]

This was epic

[@squallerrleon]

hire him

[@oaketree]

3 months later, mono red is still the best deck and goes 18-0 at a gp. Chupacabra sees next to no play in standard.

[@Kryptnyt]

Criticize mtg development all you want but Chuppy is a good boi

[@garash2000]

Cedric plugged SGC 2 times in that 9 mins clip, what a baller.

[@movezig5]

How much do you want to bet that this is actually rarer than a mythic despite being uncommon?

[@firstlawnmower]

I feel bad for anyone still invested in this game today.

[@alistairetheblu]

So, the rest of Masters 25 has been spoiled...

[@mareksison]

You're forgetting that chupacabra is the meso-american version of a boogeyman type monster. I wanted topoint it out, because you mention the flavor of that rare dinosaur but you neglect the flavor of the chupacabra.

[@jacobmonks3722]

He doesn't mean the flavor of the creature's design and Lore, he means the flavor of playing it. It tastes the same every time because you get an immediate payoff that requires no setup or follow through. There's little strategy or tension involved in playing something like this.

[@eamonpirruccello7931]

it's a card that only edh players can enjoy because it's unhealthy for standard, oppressive in limited and irrelevant in modern and legacy

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Wotc R@D just laughing at Mr Sullivan as they actively ruin standard and players still give them money because commander.

[@docpepperclassic]

Well put. Ban Nekrataal!

[@alessandroboscaini8424]

That standard was perfect for millenials: all instant gratification, no will for commitment, tension, drama and investment

[@scoffingskeptic]

This is one of the more ridiculous design criticisms I've ever heard. Do you think there should be no removal, no good answers for things (i.e. Kaladesh Standard again?) No? Then accept that any format that has removal is going to prioritize creatures that can get around that removal.

[@user-ym2qp1rm5i]

Brian Laws that's not what he's saying. He's saying the removal doesn't matter because it already did a thing. Killing it is fine it's a 2/2 but it kills your thing first and can block. it does too much. The good creatures don't get a chance to exist and it goes into the best deck. There is no risk for playing the card you only get rewarded. That's why standard is pretty bad rn there are only creatures that reward you. That's why, regardless of how good the removal is, this is a bad design because regardless of if you kill it the you are the one who got two for oned not the person who played it.

[@scoffingskeptic]

Yes, it's good bc it does something the turn it comes in; story as old as the game itself. But as long as removal exists, that's always going to be true. A Chupacabra or a Refiner or a Elvish visionary are always going to be superior to something that doesn't do anything when it etb. Unless he's suggesting we remove removal, I'm not sure what he's suggesting or getting at. I think this is the kind of ability that black should have. I don't hear him complaining about Chandra, which has all the same "problems"

[@user-ym2qp1rm5i]

He addresses all of these concerns and why they aren't ok. Yes they will be better but why they are better is what makes it not ok. Elvish visionary is better than most 2 Mana 1/1's but it's not the same as a card that does that and 3-4 other things on top of a body that is appealing. Visionary draws you a card but it's bad at combat. Refiner draws you a card gives you an additional body, gives you a counter, that's stapled to something that is good in combat. It's 100% upside. Not a single downside for its cost. Even if it dies it replaced itself 2-3 times over. He's not confirmed that the ability is good or not but that there is no risk to playing the card at all. You play it and you get so much. No Mana investment nothing.

[@aethertag1530]

That's literally not what he said, dude.

[@Shadoww2309]

What he said here is that at the moment standard is not balanced regarding threats and answers. The cards that are good against removal are too good overall and there's no tradeoff. It is true that some cards are meant to be strong against removal, but when you have enough of them to fill your deck, or when they are so strong even in other aspects it becomes a problem. We are not in an environment where you have a few resilient threats to build around, as Patrick said Temur Energy was all resilient threats except for cub, which snowballs like crazy. In this case your only option is to play the same game because in every other way you just fall behind. Printing yet another card like this was pretty bad.

[@Rococorico]

This video is an unnerving disservice.

[@JacintoVG]

Could not disagree more. If you're playing in a world where azor is good enough to be a finisher cause there aren't any answers, you live in a world where the first to get there wins. If you want your magic to revolve around who draws a good card first, play sealed. Answers are good. Most of the bannings in standard recently resulted from pushed cards with no good answers. You want a game that's more about luck than skill, and if that's what I wanted I'd just flip coins and try to call it instead.

[@stirling3523]

AlchemyOmega Yes, answers are good, but answers that punish baneslayer angels and also are threats make slow value cards almost unplayable instead of sometimes good.

[@bobmarleybis]

Answers are not the problem. The problem are creature with powerful etb.

[@Rococorico]

Thank you, really. I can't even- this video is boiling my blood.

[@verpast]

I am confused whether people like you watched the whole video or not, have trouble understanding the points made by Patrick, or are just generic blind WotC fanboys / employees. Who said there are no answers in the world where Azor can be a finisher, when he specifically highlights that the design balance would be in the risk / reward of tapping out for a sorcery speed thing that may or may not be answered by your opponent? The point is that the current standard format is dominated by either boring 3/2s, 2/3s, value creatures that due to their nature of generating value immediately have no risk/reward involved in being played or by next to impossible to answer threats, therefore there is very little variance to the EV of the plays you make, no tension, no interesting gameplay. The cards either create value immediately or cannot be interacted with. These are exactly the kind of cards where it almost does not matter what "good answers" are printed in the format. Who cares if my Rogue Refiner gets Fatal Pushed? In a Standard format like this, the new block is designed and built around tribes with creatures that are individually weak but synergistic, so supposedly good if you have a critical mass of the tribal creatures. This concept which is most likely already ripped apart by the sheer value and card quality of the Temur / 4c / Sultai Energy decks - full of the aforementioned boring threats - now also has to deal with a Chupacabra, an unconditional 2 for 1 that has no flavor, no drawback, no tribe and no real reason for existence. This is not about luck vs. skill. We could argue which format has more skill involved, the hypothetical one with Azor, or the current standard where the majority of the matches are mirror matches where the first person to stumble on a critical land drop falls hopelessly behind in the value snowball game. Loads of skill involved in casting a Rogue Refiner lol... EDIT: clarifying a few points and trying to make sense in English

[@JacintoVG]

Répa Tamás I did watch the whole video, but his opinion is consistent throughout the whole video, so its not really relevant. I'm not saying that wizards can do no wrong, I actually even said that they messed up by creating the type of environment that Patrick is calling for. Marvel - emrakul was banned out because it resulted in uninteractive games that were generally a race to get to emrakul. If cards like the chupacabra don't exist you end up with the same type of thing with some different big threat. Wizards has lately tried to balance creatures and threats, making the game more interactive. Just because of the nature of creatures having to sit out on the battlefield vulnerable, the creatures have to generate some value, like Patrick said with haste or replacing itself or some other bit of value or be able to protect itself, because if not, a spell of similar power level will deal with it, most often at a mana advantage. The environment that lets you play big things that don't do anything or protect themselves is an environment without answers, and we already know how that goes. Everything that Patrick says is bad about the way magic is going is what i think the game should be. I understand his points but I disagree with them. It's possible that wizards is swinging too far into answers vs threats but I don't think so.

[@toneyquesenberry8760]

Value creatures are bad game design,let me play my bombs! That's all I got from Sullivan's ranting. Nothing of use or worthwhile in this video.

[@stickmanphil12345]

i mean they are tho...generic value creatures have no thought to make them lol

[@toneyquesenberry8760]

Philip Young pretty sure they take more thought than the rest of the draft chaff Patrick is campaigning for. The sphinx he reffered to is super sweet but it doesn't do anything good for the archetype that would run it. That's worse game design than a necratal reprint with a toughness boost that's actually functional if still unlikely to see play in constructed formats. So tell me more about how value cards are bad exactly cause so far neither you nor Sullivan has given any logical reason for your argument.

[@shellder11]

In a world of Scarab Gods, a kill spell on a stick will see standard play. Sully said specifically it is NOT a necratal reprint: it's an upgrade because of the lack of a non-black non-artifact clause. With temur energy's very consistent mana this is splashable, and decks that might be designed to run Azor are seriously discouraged thanks to this card. On top of that there isn't even a flavor excuse for it to be in this set. Please listen to the full argument, it's all in the video.

[@toneyquesenberry8760]

shellder11 we've had removal on a stick in noxious gearhulk this entire time yet they haven't paired them up, not to mention the life gain bonus...then we got hostage taker which is easier for them to splash than either of those, and arguably better with the extra point of toughness and possibility of casting what you take, plus hitting artifacts. Still making a poor case man.

[@shellder11]

Noxious Gearhulk is one of the mythic gearhulk cycle and it's 6 mana. Hostage Taker is a pirate in a pirate set and if you haven't cast the card underneath and it's killed your opponent gets the exiled permanent back. Chupacabra isn't one of the 4 highlighted tribes in Ixalan and when it enters the battlefield it kills anything targetable dead. It's less conditional/cheaper than the others. I think Sully made plenty of good points, but you're entitled to your opinion and I respect your courteousness though we disagree.