Patrick Sullivan Reserved List Rant

From SCG Minneapolis Open 2018: Day 1
Twitch wouldn't let me clip the Vod and I haven't seen this anywhere else on youtube

[@ManiCavalieri]

I live and breathe for each and every Patrick Sullivan "rant"; they're wonderful

[@zaidenlandon9879]

InstaBlaster.

[@mattm7798]

The idea that P Sully, at and SCG event, where SCG is paying him, sitting next to an SCG employee, keeping in mind that SCG sells MTG cards, is saying that cardboard with art on it being $25 is absurd is hilarious...you can almost hear Cedric thinking "please stop talking before I get in trouble"

[@rafaelquadros7970]

I am 100% confident that this rant/conversation was net positive to SCG *as a business*.

[@EngineerfifeninerO]

He was given a clear to rant. There is no wayyy he didn’t get the clear. The market was crazy different!!!!

[@Handley_DDS]

Problem is not prices, but accessibility through reprints. After 30 years, originals won't lose value at long term, even with reprints. Ask Alpha Shivan Dragon or BoP. Wizards could solve the problem making 30Ed a special draft box like LOTR, and selling at a more reasonable price. But failed.

[@LibertyMonk]

There's a reason why Alpha prints are worth more than Unlimited prints.

[@KellyUnekis]

Comic Book reprints have never tanked an original copy's price. The reserved list not existing anymore would hardly dent *actually playable* scarce cards' values. Look at current non reserved list staples in constructed formats that get reprinted: Basically a sale on singles until the set goes out of print.

[@emanym]

The problem isn’t price. The problem is there physical limit to the number of legacy and vintage tournament players possible 😢

[@laurelkeeper]

The two are, surprisingly, correlated.

[@harryertai4718]

"I´m not mad !" says the person whilst mad.

[@nthnthms1212]

This is a well thought out argument but i want to stop hearing vintage players complaining that there isnt enough tournaments when there isnt enough players to support them.

[@drokhalis3338]

*cards I’ve got the Mox Diamonds, all the duals, wheel, cradle, but no power means I could only play in proxy tournaments.

[@nthnthms1212]

@@drokhalis3338 Yeah. Most players will not spend the money for cardboard so there will be less players...

[@drokhalis3338]

@@nthnthms1212 there could be a chance I did just buy my first piece of power within the past ten months, but I’m skeptical these bargain bin prices for power stick around till next year.

[@jalalabad1983]

@@drokhalis3338 well they did

[@jadegrace1312]

There's not enough players because the cards are too expensive lol

[@nickswift6044]

I fucking live for these rants

[@andygoody2599]

If the Reserved List is good for ANY reason then it should be extended to all formats. It doesn't exist past Mercadian Masques because it's NOT a good thing and should be eliminated for all formats. There is no value in doing something for old cards you don't do for new ones.

[@asterwilliams]

man this is such a mischaracterized argument. nobody's saying it should be a specific dollar value, just that it's never going to be accessible for people. it's fine when you have hundred dollar cards, or collector's pieces, but when you have something that's needed as a game piece but it's $1000 and being traded like a security, and NEVER GOING TO LOSE VALUE, that's ridiculous. legacy and vintage tournaments are accessible to fractions of fractions of the player base, and those fractions are shrinking every day. the answer isn't $20 underground seas, it's increasing the margins on who CAN play. modern staples are expensive but that's because they're played, and they can all be reprinted eventually. modern boomed after MH2 because fetch prices became tolerable for more and more people. yes, there are people still priced out - there always will be - but the margins of who can play got wider and better.

[@jalalabad1983]

Good news! No reserved list cards are needed as a game piece because 99.9% of tournaments (and 100% of big tournaments) don't even allow reserved list cards. It's like wotc set up an arcade with 100 different games, and one of them costs $100 to play and the other ninety-nine cost $1 to play, and all the competition is about the cheap games anyway. And you're over here talking about "I can't even afford to play video games!" Yes you can! Just play any of the many other fine options on the menu! It's completely fine if some tiny percent are out of your reach! Not even a problem!

[@asterwilliams]

@@jalalabad1983 it is a problem if i want to play that magic! which i do! i want to play legacy, let alone vintage, and i shouldn't have to take out a mortgage to do so! there's a reason legacy in paper is basically dying out aside from very specific niches, and it's not for a lack of people wanting to play. even leaving aside those formats, a bunch of those cards are EDH staples (or should be), and having to rely on your playgroup being chill with proxies to play the game sucks. also, the prices in the rest of the formats are also constantly climbing. modern decks are priced now at what legacy decks were when i started in 2014. it's less like $100 vs $1 and more like $10000 and $1000. i don't want to play standard, i want to play legacy.

[@TheKaijudist]

@@asterwilliams Those formats aren't "Magic" any more than Wizard Tower is at this point

[@asterwilliams]

@@TheKaijudist vintage legacy and edh aren't magic? what the fuck are you talking about?

[@BarginsGalore]

@@TheKaijudistbut the only reason for that is the price

[@searchfire3350]

I was worried for a little bit about how much money mtg was going to cost me. Then I realized I can order 180 proxy cards for 30 cents a card. I will continue to support my local game store through draft every friday I can, but I will absolutely be buying proxies of every card worth more than a dollar from now on. Done.

[@Beghty27]

Yep this is exactly what I do. I own 1 legacy deck and 1 commander deck. Every other commander deck I own is proxied for when I play with friends.

[@makingnoises2327]

This is no longer thge case due to legal threats by WotC against Card Conjurer. Proxy businesses have increased prices or moved to the grey market in attempts to avoid notoriety and the subsequent risk of legal action.

[@ZRoflcopter]

@@makingnoises2327 monetizing proxies is something they are well within their right to intervene into. wotc will never come after you for writing "underground sea" on a card and treating it as that game object

[@artist91fb]

I would love to see the ratio like dislike. I have most legacy playable reserve list cards, signed duals, tabernacle etc. it pains me to see this prices, as playing legacy either proxy friendly or competitively, is what I love to do. but Jesus Christ.. I can hear both side of the argument. but I never got upset because of reprints, and that is my point. I invest in the game because I love it, not because I wanna make a profit out of it. my lands deck is 9k and I want to be buried with that, so I can play in the afterlife (or not?), and not because I want to sell it. I have met many people that were driven to sell their beloved cards due to financial hardships, and every time it broke my heart.

[@Beghty27]

The current ratio is 284 Likes to 24 dislikes. It is possible to enjoy listening to P.Sully rant while also disagreeing with his stance.

[@cybertronmessiah]

And here in 2024, where an eternal format called Commander is THE MOST POPULAR FORMAT, access to the duals, Gaea's Cradle, and a bunch of other reserve list cards dictate that the reserve list needs to fucking go.

[@jonathanmontgomery5178]

“I’m a socialist, by the way.” - Patrick Sullivan 😛

[@nathanorwick3671]

I'm sorry, is MtG a card game, or a financial asset? Last I checked, the silly little art-smeared cardboard pieces were meant to be used to play a dubiously complicated game that gets worse and worse to associate with as each year passes; in no small part because the people in charge of managing this game can't see it for what it is. Sad.

[@hermodnitter3902]

Sorry that you missed out on the value. Now get yourself a printer and do as much gameplay as you want, with any card.

[@jalalabad1983]

It's a game, which means no one needs to worry about prices being too high since it's not that important to your life. Price controls are for things which are ACTUALLY important like food, housing, or medicine; collectible wizard cardboard can be any price, and no one should bat an eye.

[@user-ki5fg6kv1c]

Ok boomer..

[@milhousevanhoutan9235]

The main issue with reprinting the reserved list is that wizards has a built in clause that lets them reprint a reserved list card whenever they want. It's called the "Functionally Identical" clause and it very clearly states "a card is considered functionally identical when it has the same TYPE, SUBTYPE, ABILITIES, MANA COST, POWER AND TOUGHNESS." So taking a black lotus as an example, you could create a land called "Lotuslands" that taps for 3 of any color mana but it is a land instead of an artifact, and you have just reprinted the Black Lotus in such a way that does not violate the reprint policy. Given that this is built into the reserved list itself, many reserved list cards have been reprinted using this loophole. The big name ones that haven't been reprinted? They generally contain what can be described as "disfavored mechanics" at this time. They won't be reprinted because they're too powerful or not powerful enough or contain something that's not in keeping with the current WOTC vision of what they want MTG to be. For example Time Walk would never be reprinted because now it's considered that a card that stops either player from playing magic COMPLETELY (as opposed to situational like counter spells) is not good design.

[@TheMorbidHobo]

Right, but then you have two of those cards, and people can run both of them.

[@violetto3219]

i vehemently disagree as someone who balks at any card worth more than $4 but i don't think anyone will ever argue his point better than this

[@christiansmith5047]

I sold my moat to SCG for $200. And that makes me sad.

[@MentalCrusader]

No regular card should be more than 1$/€ in my opinion(would also make the game a lot more accessible). They can add rare alternate arts/foils that are more expensive and old cards are gonna stay expensive anyways. But to feel disadvantaged in a card game just because your opponent spent double the amount on fancy cardboard is ridiculous

[@TheKaijudist]

Board games exist to satisfy people who take issue with the inherent market realities of TCGs

[@asburycollins9182]

This would kill the game. You need vendors. And if they cant make money they will be gone.

[@asburycollins9182]

In formula one you will lose if you show up in your hyundai. In the 100 Meters you will lose if you show up in sandals.

[@asburycollins9182]

They found the loophole

[@nickoliekeyov746]

There’s too much power in vintage. I don’t think people understand how much of a feels bad it can be to lose a game simply because you're on the draw turn one. Formats that more rigorously regulate power level and involve basic interaction (creature combat, casting removal and setting up more difficult combos) are going to be more fun and engaging for everyone than a really uninteractive turn 1-2 combo. It’s fine to proxy it but I think most people will very quickly understand why Ancestral Recall and Time Walk were never reprinted again.

[@EngineerfifeninerO]

How MTG30 age this clip? Well? Poorly?

[@jimpi3357]

Very Poorly.

[@TheMorbidHobo]

The problem ian't the price, it's the availability.

[@SnapD24]

It's clear to me after reading these comments that y'all still didn't listen to a damn word Patrick said. All of the things he said are all on TOP of the premise that "magic should be affordable." Y'all live in an imaginary dreamworld that never existed. It's always been a rich person's game much like life.

[@SaintThomasOfAquinas]

He is right :D

[@mopanda81]

I think the largest argument in favor of more reasonable prices is increasing accessibility for the game. Commander's massive popularity excepted I've heard these arguments the most from players who enjoy competitive magic but don't enjoy the financial metagame of investing in and acquiring cards. But aside from the personal problems of playing the more popular but less expensive (and more volatile metagame) formats, I think the strongest argument is that with a lower financial barrier to entry more players can play and enjoy competitive magic. Presumably decreased prices/increased printings would balance out the cost to game shops selling "cheaper" products in increased volume. I entered magic as a kid and very quickly was priced out of the game, I feel like a lot of people in my generation did the same. I don't think there's a whole lot making magic attractive to that demographic anymore especially as the focus has been on increasingly premium products. Sure there's the problem that kids really don't have that much money to spend but it feels like you're relying only on older generations of adult players to motivate newer generations of adults to get into the hobby. I don't know how that looks demographically so I cannot comment on if that's more effective than marketing towards younger players.

[@pirakalord55]

If Wizards are willing to sell proxies, you too can play with them. They don't need to be real cards unless you're playing in sanctioned events, barring times you're playing with complete weirdos. Even if cards were free, the travel costs would still be a massive barrier to entry for playing competitive Magic. Most game stores don't hold RCQ level events more than every few months, and if you don't already live in a metropolitan area, you'll have to travel everywhere. Even if you get your invite, chances are that the actual regional championship isn't going to take place in a convenient location. By the end of it, whatever you spent on a deck, be it for Standard, Pioneer, or Modern, is going to be minimal compared to the driving, hotel, and take out costs related to playing competitively.

[@mopanda81]

@@pirakalord55 But even in your free cards scenario the current reality where you pay for the trip to the tourney AND the deck still costs twice.

[@pirakalord55]

@@mopanda81 For someone who wants to start grinding what few competitive events are put on today, the difference between the cost of a deck and traveling is little different to just traveling. If the main way you want to experience Magic is as a high level competitive experience, yeah, getting priced out sucks, but there are myriad avenues for meaningfully partaking in the game that don't involve grinding events Wizards barely puts on or supports anymore. Every other way you would experience Magic can be done for next to nothing so long as you're fine with playing with proxies.

[@DrewskiTheLegend]

You watched the video right? You can have any card in the game for commander if you have a stack of basic lands and a sharpie. Literally makes no difference in a casual/joke format. None of the other formats are being supported anymore, so the reserved list is irrelevant unless you are Rudy and friends.

[@mopanda81]

@@DrewskiTheLegend Taking a sharpie to a swamp is fine except then you have to spend the whole game telling people what the card is what it does and why it is not in fact a swamp. There's definitely a middle ground between "volcs cost more than a used car" and "I will never give hasbro money" that pays for the game's development but allows people to actually play.

[@jamescraig3485]

Magic is free if you're brave enough.

[@mindmagemethin1550]

I think the arguement of "just proxie" is disingenuous. Yes printer goes burrr and markers spell, but there is a great divide between those that support proxies and those that dont. Almost every single LGS i have played at has a proxie rule. Some ban, some limit, some full send. What do you say to people whos local community say no proxies? Too bad? Commander is the #1 format, allowing cards from every set. And I am speaking from experience, i own several RLcards of significant value. With every sincerity, if WotC reprinted them into the ground i wouldnt care cause I know after the dust has settled the originals would still hold value. They could very easily release an anthology collection, slap a $100 price tag on it and make money hand over fist, increase accessibility, and not damage the collections of anyone.

[@warpdrivefueledbyinsomnia8165]

The reserved list was a wise move in 1996 to preserve MtG as a business, as a game enjoyed by thousands of fans at the time, and as an endeavor that people were invested in financially and emotionally. This was a true crisis for the game. I started playing in 1997, and was very much aware of the reverberations. And now there are people who are invested in RL cards for thousands of dollars, so a move that results in devaluation of these cards would result in tangible harm. But, also, the reserved list is trash and I hate it. It's MtG's original sin. I proxy like a madman.

[@fusionenvironmentalsolutions]

❤️❤️❤️

[@thedoctorbob7]

The thing is you can have it both ways. You can have $100 birds of paradise and $7 birds of paradise. You can have different versions of cards. The reserve list doesn't allow that. It locks functional game pieces behind a huge paywall. And look where we are now. Scg can't have legacy opens because there just aren't enough players. Because there aren't enough cards. Legacy is basically an mtgo format now. I've had legacy cards like duals for a decade now and it doesn't even make sense to have them anymore. Paper legacy tournament play is dead because of the buyin, and commander is casual and not a tournament format so who cares about proxies. So why do I have $700 volcanic islands?

[@jalalabad1983]

So sell them, who cares, they're just toys. We don't need to worry if certain toys are expensive or not. Imagine being all bent out of shape because some old Lego piece from the 70s got really expensive and they didn't make more, and people were threatening to quit buying Lego because of it, and insisted they couldn't even play Lego *~at all~* without that one piece. Preposterous, yet that is exactly what so many people do for mtg. Such people are deeply unserious and should not be catered or listened to.

[@thedoctorbob7]

@@jalalabad1983 it's more like if chess manufacturers stopped making queen pieces, and you had to play chess games without a queen if you didn't buy one that was made in the '70s for like $500. You'd basically never see people picking up chess anymore because without that outrageous buyin you'd be at a huge disadvantage every game you play, unless other people intentionally stop playing their queens too. Competitive people don't like playing games at a disadvantage, and they also don't like playing suboptimal stuff. So both options are bad. I can absolutely sell my stuff, but is that what you want? More and more people selling out and less people playing the game? I want more people playing this wonderful game, not less.

[@rocksy7156]

​@@jalalabad1983awful comparison

[@coooolibri]

it would be ok for me to proxy a card like gaeas blessing, cause this is the time im trying to fill out my old sets i had from playing at the end of 90s with my friend. combining his and my cards ive had a lot of fun during the lockdowns and recently again archiving all these cards. for me personally i dont care 0 about condition. i have some extremely minty and some heavy played cards from that era, and im going backwards as far as i can, but not before 95/96. for me there is a sense of fullfillment when getting a set done, so its hard when you are very passionate and motivated about it, and then a few 500 euro cards hold you back. like i said, proxy wouldnt be too bad if they wouldnt charge 10% of the original price for a proxy. like a fucking deck is still 40 euro, and that is a joke to me. id pay 2 euro, or 5 euro for a proxy for a card like gaeas blessing, but yeah. more than 20 year old cards, but also gotta admit on the other hands there is still 90% even of the old rares that have bulk prices, which comes in handy.

[@SanguineQuest]

Collectible investing is stupid and games exist to be played. Black Lotus is one of the most iconic things this game ever produced and 99% of people have to make a fake one to use it. Imagine if Pokemon could never make a new set with a Charizard in it, or Yugioh could never had a fresh Blue Eyes or Dark Magician, or if Dungeons and Dragons wasn't allowed to print new Monster Manuals with Mindflayers in it. It's nonsense.

[@6nodder6]

Just ban all the reserved list cards and problem solved.

[@soren1803]

The base version of a card shouldn’t really ever rise above $20, that’s my number. Game pieces are game pieces, I don’t care about the collectors items, foils etc can do whatever. We all know alpha birds of paradise retain their value, same will be true of the original printings of reserve list cards, reprint the reserve list.

[@TheKaijudist]

No

[@soren1803]

@@TheKaijudist good talk

[@soarel325]

Correct

[@tacky4237]

@@TheKaijudist No argument morelike

[@hermodnitter3902]

Why reprint it when you can print it yourself...

[@soarel325]

I just think Magic should be a game first and an investment second, distant second. Other games like YGO know this and have reprint policies that make sure essentially no card breaks $50 or so.

[@jalalabad1983]

it IS a game first - you don't need to buy RL cards except for less than 1% of play (*tournament* *legacy/vintage* only) casual play never needs RL cards to begin with, and legacy/vintage tournament play is like 1% of 1% of all play. so go enjoy your game!

[@rickburger5172]

@@jalalabad1983 just like most places in society, you pay for access.

[@shearerbilly]

this is the best thing in life

[@nehuenbec]

patrick edgy af man. #openthegates

[@jessoftherocks]

Leave the originals for money bag collectors, i want to be abled to afford the game i love. I shouldnt have to pay five hundred for a beat to fawk dual. It will always go up. Wizards has no reason to not sell these cards reprinted. Its obvious collectors can get fawked

[@xKarbx9999]

No

[@erickcarjes2738]

He only says that because he owns those cards. It's just a rich guy speaking

[@EngineerfifeninerO]

I hadn’t watched this live. Man I’m glad I did watch it now. I have RL cards. I’m diverse and not delusional.

[@alanyuan8565]

The problem is Patrick is presenting a straw man argument. People would like magic to be more reasonably priced so they could play it. If you don’t want to make a format accessible/ fun, then that’s fine. But most people would like the format to be accessible.

[@treycuret]

He answered every one of your gripes lol

[@mattstrott753]

Well said! 👍

[@MTGEDH]

Unfortunately the argument in favor of keeping the reserve list falls flat when you begin and recap with "if we were starting over I wouldn't do it."

[@jeanbarque9918]

No, I dont specialy want it to cost what I can afford ! I am just worried of speculation and something material that will not last forever.. make it 10 times more rare than expedition its ok for me, just reprint at least a bit. A number ? The actual number ! For every rl cards ! Dont let these cards go further in price, control that limit, the number is the actual number. Ok now I gave you the number, the argument, everything, do it.. I am waiting for it.. just hopping that you didnt speak for nothing.. I gave you the answers you were asking.

[@jalalabad1983]

you didn't answer the question at all lol

[@retrovirus61]

All mtg cards are free if you have a printer.

[@stevendebettencourt7651]

Not if you want to play competitive-level Magic.

[@kingfuzzy2]

@@stevendebettencourt7651 not with that attitude

[@jiaan100]

​@@stevendebettencourt7651yeah then you need some Chinese fakes and hope some turbo autist doesn't deck check you

[@dittmar104]

Not cards should be more than a few dollars. It’s fucking cardboard.

[@xKarbx9999]

A 100 dollar bill is a piece of paper

[@richardpointer]

Patrick is right. WotC should be printing Rolexes and not Timexes.

[@stevendebettencourt7651]

Make it Patek Phillippe’s

[@zienejon]

Patrick completely missing the reason that legacy and vintage is not played more often is due to the reserved list. One of his bad rants

[@StevenRiseNYC]

I feel like wizards could alleviate part of the issue with the reserved list if they made legendary duals.

[@serfmcserfington]

Easy, Underground Sea should cost .10c. Same for every card.

[@treycuret]

Any logical way this occurs?

[@serfmcserfington]

@@treycuret Cardboard is cheap, so is ink at scale. Seems like you could print enough of them to do it.

[@DrOmnipotent]

God this is a reduction of other people's perspectives on a complex topic. Painful to listen to these strawman arguments.

[@sulIy]

Cringe. He says that people are childish for caring about the price of cardboard and then coddles people who invested in expensive cardboard. Not to mention, there’s a strong argument that increasing accessibility to legacy formats will eventually cause reserve list staples to go UP in price as collector pieces.

[@pirakalord55]

Outside of sanctioned tournament environments, to whatever extent Wizards would hold a Legacy or Vintage paper event (Local game stores wouldn't dare demand people play a proxy free Legacy deck for an event), there is nothing stopping you from playing either format with proxied cards. That's Patrick's primary argument. From there, it's that the reserve list exists as a sort of guarantee of value for people inclined to dump absolute bank on the game.

[@Anonymous-ju9bg]

He’s so wrong about so, so many things here

[@megajuancarlos27]

This rant is cringe and Patrick is showing some really strong boomer energy here.

[@xKarbx9999]

Nah

[@Zooby19]

You are showing some zoomer energy

[@maxwelledison03]

​@@Zooby19Agreed.

[@richardpointer]

Tell @TolarianCommunityCollege