We Need To FINALLY Have This Conversation...

[@EmmetCohen]

We’ll miss you Patrick! Have a great time ❤

[@DavePollack]

YES!!!! This isn't only something that needs to be discussed more with students in high school/college, but among musicians out of school as well. You hear people talking down about wedding/restaurant/whatever gigs, but then complain about their situation and make excuses. I'm so glad you made this video because like all your videos, it comes from not only an area of expertise but an area of caring as well. You actually care about other musicians, younger people, the music "scene"/business, etc. and you want to actually shine a light on things to make them better. Love it!!

[@Chewzus]

wait like Fighting game player Jiyuna wow small place!!!

[@zekielrodriguez5229]

For real. If you’re a musician you should really be happy to play any music anywhere for any audience. Assuming you’re safe, respected, compensated ect. Your job is to bring joy to others. You don’t have to be john mayer or something. If you want to do your own thing that’s cool but much harder to do so and also find financial success from. If you’re an artist you should consider that if you made music you loved and were heard, but didn’t get a big payout and you’re not famous, if you would feel fulfilled. I believe a true artist would say yes

[@j0habba]

FAX, its precious for one who performs music, wether art music or popular music.

[@BehindTheScreen118]

I liked when you talked about how it's what the person hiring you is looking for as opposed to who you are as an artist. Reminded me of the time I was told by the drummer/band leader of this one band, that I was hired over the other sax player (more talented than me) he had in mind because I showed up on time, was quiet (not noodling) during rehearsals, and helped load/unload the rhythm section gear at gigs.

[@PatrickBartleyMusic]

That's a recipe for a hired band member if I ever saw one! Like I once heard a friend say, "I don't want to get the gig once; I wanna get the call BACK."

[@brandonmusko9352]

When in doubt load it out.

[@wesm65]

This is so true in my experience. On alot of gigs you're not expected to be a virtuoso, and particularly on wedding gigs (of which there are many where I live - the music is generally pretty simple). But the guy who can play what's required and be professional (show up on time, helps with gear etc.) and gets on with everyone is generally called over an amazing player who acts unprofessionally and is a difficult guy to get along with. It's the same as any other job in that way. Only a great artist with a definite following can really get away with being unprofessional - we've heard so many stories of greats who acted like this, e.g. Bird. This is not necessarily and either or, of course - I'm sure that artists can be reliable and professional too.

[@midnightkiteflight6333]

Great advice I once got: Make a business card that has written on it Your name Phone number Then lastly: "Average player. Always on time."

[@vigilancebrandon]

@@midnightkiteflight6333 amazing

[@GrandMaster-Broda]

I'm going to give a very different take on this. I have always wanted to be a musician and ahve a musical life. I liked hanging out with musicians and it's the main thing I thought about. I studied music and have a masters in performance but realized soon that the moajory of my musical life would involve a lot of remote, tough, underpaid jobs where I spend the majority of my time NOT performing the music I want. I was fortunate enough to be capable in other areas as well and was able to find a well paying job that doesn't require 100% of my time. I found music to be a lot more fulfilling if I play what I want and compose what I want. However, I was always feeling guilty that I was no longer a 'proper' musician because I wasn't struggling in the trenched with the rest of my colleagues, this made me realize that I had a preference for the ARTISTIC side of music but not the reality of the working musican life, Thanks!

[@carlinmuccular]

Very well put.

[@rockindavebyron3960]

I agree with you, I tend to lean on the artistic side, but even on working side of it, there is no guarantee of financial success! The truth is, music is definitely one of the most expensive & unstable businesses out there than can leave you flat broke real quick! Plus, we just went through Hurricane Ian 6 months ago & lost about 75% of our gigs, & I personally know of musicians with no other skills in life, that now resent being a musician of any type, really sad!!! Great & true comment you make my friend, be safe & true, Rock On & God Bless!!!

[@SeanImboden]

Patrick, thank you for the video. I feel like my life has revolved around this very topic, so it’s nice to hear your thoughts. My parents are working musicians, and I grew up with a solid training to do that myself. Discovering Cannonball in high school led me to become a jazz major, but right after college I got hooked up with the touring Broadway scene, and stuck with that through my 20s. This seemed like a good fit for me because I could read and double well, but after a while I was very unhappy, starved for artistry, and dreaded going into the orchestra pit to play the exact same show night after night. I was the quintessential working musician, with zero opportunity for any artistic expression. This all came to a head when I managed to audition and win one of the reed chairs for the Radio City Christmas Spectacular in NYC. A great paying gig, but as the saying goes, money doesn’t make you happy. It sounds corny, but deep down I knew I just wanted to be an artist. Once that show ended, I took a deep inward look. I sold my doubles, moved back to the midwest, bought a house with the Bway dough, and made a vow to myself to only pursue artistic opportunities. It’s been almost a decade since then, and I’m glad to say that things have worked out well. Because I played very little jazz in my 20s, I’ve felt a little behind, but through years of hard work I’ve managed to record and play regularly with all of the best players in my city (Indianapolis) and surrounding areas. I’ve started multiple groups of my own, including a big band, sextet, and trio that all perform my original music. I also play in a few other established groups as an (artistic) sideman. All of this has left me feeling incredibly fulfilled and grateful that I decided to follow my gut. I also do some teaching at a couple of colleges, and I try to-as you say-be as real as I can with my students about this very topic. As far as the problem you mention of colleges solely training jazz majors to be artists, I think the opposite problem also exists at some schools. Sometimes jazz majors aren’t sharpening their artistic skills well enough to even be a working jazz musician once they’re out of school. Another thing I see a lot is that professors naturally guide students down the path that they themselves took, without thinking about or even asking the students what they want to become. I think we all need to find the thing that makes us happy, and stay focused on it. It’s easy to look at someone else and think you should follow their path. Deep down we each know what is best for ourselves. To all the working warriors and artistic soldiers - keep doing your thing!

[@davidrennie8197]

Key words here: "bought a house with the Bway dough"

[@laubowiebass]

I have to concur , I’ve been here and I had to make decisions on what to keep on doing musically. The difference is real, but when you’re dreading work and lose track of why you got into this field, you may as well become a dentist. If you’re enjoying all of it , that’s great . The problem arises when it’s stronger than yourself. When you can’t make yourself be content even when you want to. It’s always a trade off and where the balance is will vary depending on the musician. If I ever get to feel dead inside playing music like some colleagues I’ve seen, I’ll change careers and do it as a hobby with pleasure. It’s not worth the grind otherwise. ( I’m not a young dreamer and I’ve been a pro for a long time).

[@raf_the_riffer]

This is a hard truth that every music student needs to learn. The music business is exactly that-a “business”.

[@kevinsavo718]

In my experience making a living as a musician, it doesn't have a strong "business"ish feel. Of course you are selling your services, but when I hear friends and family from the more traditional corporate world, their attitude towards business is so different. Not trying to contradict you here, just sharing my feelings. You are right of course, it is technically a business.

[@Landyachtz471]

This is one of the most important discussions that schools dont have with students

[@tobleroni]

As a lifelong working musician, I agree 100% that these conversations should be had at formal institutions on day 1. I went to music school and I don't regret it at all. But there's a world of knowledge I've learned out in the real world that never gets discussed in music school that I think, as do you, that doesnt get taught. How to make a living in this modern landscape should be a mandatory class. Music schools are woefully fossilized in the past. But thats a separate topic. Thank you for discussing this topic.

[@natenallmusic]

This is a great conversation that needs to happen! As a jazz professor in the Midwest, I try to help teach my students skills to go in either direction. Really appreciate the conversation. I think it is so important to know where we want to end up as musicians and be working toward that goal.

[@nilesloughlin6845]

Hey Patrick, I think I can offer some perspective from the classical side of schooling here, having gone through two performance degrees and then having worked on crossing over into jazz / commercial / folk scenes after school. I believe you’re analysis of the music industry and education here is 100% spot on. The trouble within classical schools, from my own experience and from what I’ve heard, is that not only is there no focus on the development of working musician skills (beyond timeliness and rehearsal etiquette); the agency of a performer’s artistry itself is almost completely stripped away from them by removing any focus on improvisation, composition, or arrangement. Because that labor is split more heavily in the classical scene between composer and performer, it creates a viscous cycle where both composers and performers attempt to climb the artist ladder over each other, often exploiting each other for the other’s labor in the process. The result is an emphasis on gaining clout for oneself from academic institutions and one’s own peer groups, surviving off of patronage as a soloist or chamber group by breaking into the limited established performance institutions that exist (or grinding to make your own scene), and having developed little to no practical skills to use in the wider industry for commercial success because the focus of skill cultivation has been exclusively placed on artistry insulated within academic, peer, and patronage circles. Performers are often left with the ability to realized composed music within artist-focused scenes… and not much else. There’s really no skill development oriented towards audience interest or commercial success. I consider it to be a great disservice and arguably a blatant lie to be instructing students on how to achieve career success as performers, without giving them many practical skills to use in the industry.

[@jambajoby32]

Niles try writing commercials for friends and local small biz companies you like and use them as practice and portfolio material!

[@laubowiebass]

Truth, this is where I came from, all classical institutions have been like this.

[@countvlad8845]

Music is glamorous. So you have to put your reason aside if you buy into the glamour of an artist. If you are lucky you already have the money and people needed to be an artist. Most students don't have that, but they have certainly bought into the dream. Then they get out of music school and end up teaching (which is selling the dream they had initially bought into, to other people). Reality falls short. They blame the school, but the school has probably lied to them (For example, giving the statistic that 80% of the graduates will be working “in the industry.” But not telling them that it means working the cash machine in a Music Store). You have to have a monstrous ego to ward off depression, rejection, and bad feelings that come from being competitive in the music industry. Usually, the small one-room flat the musician lives in is the inverse of the ego needed. A massive ego is needed to sustain that lifestyle. That's why many musicians are Buddhists - they have massive egos that need to be in check. But the musician's dream of success, that airy bit of fluff and nothingness, will eventually crush the musician if he has to hold it up for a lifetime. It will grind him down. So there is a point in life where you have to give up on it for your mental health. In fact, you have become real and see the truth. The stark reality is that there are more million-dollar lottery winners every week (at least two a week in Canada) than there are the next Taylor Swifts, Elton Johns, Buddy Miles, Bill Evans, etc. You have a better chance with the lottery than becoming these household names. Whether a movie star, sports star, rock star, etc... it's all about star glamour, but the reality is that, like a shining mackerel lying on the beach, it starts to stink. That's the first half of the grisly tale... wait to see what awaits once you do become an “artist.”

[@scottalberti6697]

You know, the more this video went on, the less I thought about myself funny enough. For my entire life I've been told I'm highly introverted and highly focused solely on myself, and still today I believe I am almost entirely focused on myself. This, by artist vs. working musician logic, would mean I am much more of an artist as I've never truly sought out gigging. First of all thank you Patrick for bringing this conversation up, because all though I've been told "Scott you gotta start making a name for yourself" I never really had worked completely on my Working Musician skills. Now would be a good time to start. Like I was saying, as the video went on I started to really think about my close friends and colleagues. I am in my second year of college at Temple University, and I'd like to think we have access to a crazy faculty (terell stafford, tim warfield, justin faulkner, John Swana, etc.). I've seen the difference in artist versus working musician as some of the students here really connect with these teachers and make their way into The Top Band here, while other (including myself) choose to focus on oneself. It's really interesting though because there are some students here that seem to focus on what I would assume is becoming more of a working musician, although they choose to have a very different (not bad) sound on their respective instruments from the "norm", whatever that means. I might have a conversation with them and see which they would prefer to call themselves. Because In my mind their sound is personally undesirable for gigs however they seem to be working on working. Maybe they do consider themselves an artist more than a working musician? who knows, until you ask. Anyhow thanks for coming to my ted talk, and thanks again pat for the awesome content!

[@zacharygallagher1520]

Recently Temple-made myself, I feel similarly. I actually only came to terms with this topic very recently and found this video by coincidence. I relate entirely in the sense that I also think of myself more as an artist than a working musician. The guys at Temple would ask me if I had any gigs coming up while I was there, the answer was always no, and I felt bad about it while I was there. What I failed to realize while I was there was that I was never really interested in seeking out gigs; I was never working on my "working musician skills." I never made Terrell's band because I never had/wanted the sound that would get me a spot, despite the fact that I wanted that very spot to feel like I was succeeding. In spite of ALL of that, I always got and still get positive feedback on my sound; people generally say that I have a pleasant tone and that it's very chill to listen to (which is not what Big Band wants). Nowadays, I'm trying to build on that and see where I can go from here as an artist. I will see what I can do to generate income with this attitude, but I don't think it will get me gigs in the norm. I have been gigging around a bit with wedding bands and such, experimenting with punchier sounds, still not really playing much bebop, just playing what I like and exploring it in a deeper sense. I have a lot of feelings/thoughts on this topic, I hope this reads fluently, I really just thought it was neat seeing someone else from Temple's jazz program with what seems like similar thoughts in the comment section. Maybe we should connect sometime! Either way Pat's the man.

[@joekelner3520]

As a drummer who grew up being mentored by a bassist, I learned that playing the instrument that I do, I’ll get much more work as a sideman than I would as a leader. I do both now, but I take the opportunity I have as a leader to put together arrangements and explore my artistry, where as my side man gigs range from bebop, rock, funk, big band, singer/songwriter, and endless more things. I notice when I’m working a lot more as a sideman, I just don’t have the bandwidth to focus on putting together my arrangements for the fewer gigs I have as a leader. There’s space for both, but I think you’re on the money where you need to think about what you want for yourself and how you spend your time cultivating your goals.

[@Signsoflife-rc4uq]

I have a regular gig playing in a cover band for 4 months at a time. I'm able to save a lot of money during these contracts and then the income allows me to do artistic things that I was never able to do before like pay for studio time to record my original music, hire the specific cats I want to work with, buy the instruments I've always wanted. Seeking out 'money gigs' as 'working musician'' has actually contributed in huge ways to my personal artistic life and its something I'm really proud of.

[@SharpElevenMusic]

Great video and topic Patrick! Indeed overlooked by many schools, but a very real struggle for most musicians, even to the point that I know it's this incompatibility leading into depression and even taking own lives unfortunately... I wonder, would you have some kind of sets of questions that people could answer for themselves to clear up the path they want to take? I think many people haven't thought his through to much, and wouldn't know how to decide on that. That would make a great next video, just a thought. All the best and good luck with you move to Japan!

[@marianlevy9232]

Great thoughts, Patrick .. I was trained at MSM as a classical pianist in days when the jazz program at MSM was just beginning (1974) I love the Venn diagram analogy because there is much overlap between practicing and working to achieve your best self on your instrument and what you are actually going to do with that skill set once you graduate- as it turns out, my life became 30 years of teaching music in public elementary schools - now that I’m finally retired and not spending my life writing lesson plans , I have more time to devote to learning repertoire and really getting into playing and trying to learn some jazz skills -- best of luck in Japan- we will miss you in NYC

[@future62]

Great video as always. I'm a huge advocate of intentionality. People have to know why they do the things they do and what they want to accomplish. I decided long ago to be an "artist".... I literally call my music "me music" and have a career outside of it. I would almost say music schools are flat out duping students by not giving them the perspective and tools to go into a career in music with open eyes. But that's not unique to music schools....

[@DomPalombiMusic]

This right here. It opened my eyes more than anyone else has told me in the 18 years of doing this stuff so far. Clarity between these two avenues is the most important thing in my opinion, cause without that, it’s easy to get lost in the wind trying to find something to hold on to. To this point, I also feel like it takes a bit of patience too to see things through, as you mentioned “taking risks” are one of the things necessary to make steps in a direction (doesn’t mean you’ll go forward). One might want to find a conclusion too quickly, and it can be easy to get caught up in the achievements/end goals that cause to loose essence of the process to getting there. Food for thought, there’s so many ways for us to make our dreams a reality.

[@jacobrippe]

You need to speak about these various topics out at universities. I don’t think these colleges are against seeing their students succeed, so maybe this would help open eyes.

[@SociologistEugenFitzherbert]

Great idea, this would fit right in as a gig at universities

[@therationalpiper7428]

From a non-music perspective... I don't think I want all of my favorite musicians to take it this far, but the music world would be better off if at least some considered themselves "entertainers". I think older musicians (mostly dead...) were more likely to say something funny here and there that they had planned in advance like a script/stage patter. I laughed at least a couple of times when I saw Benny Golson at Birdland when he was in his 70s, but I can go find any number of musicians who may never even make eye contact with or speak to the audience. I laughed at something James Carter said, something Marcus Roberts said... Certainly, the golden age of jazz featured a number of extremely entertaining personalities that were carefully crafted stage personas. You don't have to be "yourself" on stage and the more empathy a performer has for his or her audience, the better a career they'll have. If you never saw them live, you might think many of the jazz greats were deadly serious with a grave demeanor on stage (and of course some of them were), but a fair percentage of the true greats developed stage patter that was interesting/humorous etc., that worked and entertained. They paid attention to the reaction of the audience and tweaked their shows for maximum audience enjoyment.

[@ISuperTed]

Small story about ‘artist’ vs ‘working musician’. I’m a weekend warrior now (semi-retired!) but used to gig a lot (UK) on Trumpet in lots of ‘working’ bands and played a few gigs with a fantastic guitar player who put together bands for functions etc. He booked a sax player who was a well known musician. However, the day of the gig this guy phoned in (yes we used to phone back in the day!) to say he was in a different city and didn’t have a car but could get there by train - upshot was I drove to the train station to pick him up. He hadn’t learnt any of the material for the gig (although it was the usual function stuff) and basically the rest of the horn section had to help him with the changes etc. When it came to soloing he was superb but I will never forget what the guitar player who called the gig said about him - “I don’t care if he’s Charlie Parker reincarnated I need someone who is professional”. He was never booked again with the band. Sometimes you just need a team player who works to make the whole better.

[@TonkstheHopeful57]

I’m not even a musician but this resonates with me as a visual artist. Most of my classes centered around “fine arts” and getting into galleries, when the fact is youre going to have to work outside of that to be able to sustain yourself. It took me struggling to sell paintings as a vendor to rlly understand ppl dont usually want to drop $100 or more on a painting that took 10+ hours bc they simply cant afford it. So I had to make prints and find other methods of production in order to sustain myself as a working artist- its tough, I’m still in the process of learning. All i know is that i still want to be an artist, even if i have to be both a working artist and an artist.

[@sebastiannai4381]

I wish I would have learned this in college. They really are two different things and the most financially successful musicians I've known viewed it simply as a business, which killed me as a purist for the art. Took years to reconcile.

[@jmdmusicstudios2026]

Patrick, this is honestly one of the best YT discussion vids I’ve seen in a loonng time. For me personally I’m just grateful to be doing music for a living. I graduated Berklee in late 2019 as an alto sax performance major and moved back to my home city of London, England. Since leaving I’ve just been trying to do as many gigs as I possibly can (DJ Sax, session work from my home studio, recording studios, teaching, production for other artists) in order to fund my own artistic path as a smooth jazz artist.

[@beecebrashley1467]

This year I graduated from college with a bachelors in (classical) music performance. I have been torn between straying from my classical training to follow my passion in expressing myself through jazz/contemporary music and going all out with being a professional gigging musician. I know that fully pursuing the "artist" side of things will damage or even jeopardize my opportunities in the professional gigging world: the very thing I spent thousands of dollars towards training myself to do. I am also aware that if I go all-in on honing my skills to take professional orchestra auditions for jobs that would pay the bills I would be sacrificing my own personal fulfillment in the kinds of music I want to play. But after watching this video, I know that if I want to make music my career I personally have to prioritize marketing myself as a desirable asset to conductors, music directors, and band leaders to ensure that I can have a reliable future for myself in music. It is for sure a sacrifice to steer away from the music I personally want to pour my energy into, but I think it's more about being REALISTIC about my situation and my long-term goal for myself. Thank you for starting this conversation and I plan on continuing it with my peers.

[@AidanMmusic96]

My realisation against staying on the audition track (while I love it as a means of honing musical discipline in all other areas, and I still practice excerpts for that reason) was that I want to spend my life *playing*, not "preparing to play". (Just my unsolicited 2 cents - it’s interesting to see your perspective too!)

[@jasonkearse9887]

Totally agree! I think the main difference in the artist vs working artist /musician, is that you need a bunch of fundamental skills in order to work with others fast and efficiently (being able to hear chord progressions quickly, sight reading, learning patterns on the fly) in order to be working with other musicians. But being an artist requires none of those skills what so ever. Its just about creativity and what you put together from what you feel. In my opinion you can definitely balance both (and i feel like most musicians are) but its emotionally (and physically) draining.

[@EvanTateMusic]

I agree with you 100%! Artist vs Working Musician are two different mindsets and you need some different tools for realization of these careers. Either way, to have a career with longevity, you need to be VERY GOOD at whatever you choose to do.

[@isaacsmusic88]

I like going to work for my money and playing music when I get home to enjoy myself.

[@maikeli7]

Thanks, Patrick, for another great discussion! Seeing the real of the learning and playing of music is certainly something anyone should deeply consider if they are into learning/playing. I remember back in the '80s when I was considering career paths that the artistic path was not going to be for me. I saw it as something for prodigies because they have the best chance of "making it." I was never a good artist, per se, so I didn't even consider the fine arts as a possible career path. I grew up in one of the "worst" cities in Massachusetts, on welfare, and I saw education as step one, and pursuit of a career with stability was step two. As a result, I ended up in education these past 30+ years, and I have mostly adored it--until I moved to the admin side. Now, in my 50s, I am eager to get to retirement (62), when I can focus on the arts, especially my bari sax and bass guitar playing. My dream in my twilight years is to achieve the level of busker, where the playing is for me, and whatever coinage I might make is just icing on the cake. Heck, I might even meet interesting people along the way! I'm sad for the state of the music scene nowadays. Young people, even the prodigies, have a tough road ahead, as earning a living as a musician/artist is damned near impossible now, at least in the US. I'm glad my calling was teaching so that my next chapter can be to focus on the joys of learning and playing, and not need to get beaten down by the business end of it all. Bravo to you and all the working musician/artists out there who keep the struggle going!! Keep the faith!!

[@Saxologic]

Glad you made this video. All of humanity has to work for others, or else Mother Nature will find a way to kick you out of this planet. If someone doesn’t provide value to anyone other than themselves, then they are living off of someone else’s labor, which usually doesn’t last forever. I’ve never understood the sense of entitlement some people have that they should just deserve everything for doing nothing other than blowing air through a metal tube. Of course we need to serve others; that’s our entire purpose in this short life, and life will reward you for it.

[@saxiroth6647]

"Of course we need to serve others; that’s our entire purpose in this short life, and life will reward you for it." Damn, never heard anything more true than this

[@nilesloughlin6845]

Careful, or you’ll open up a larger discussion to be had about how valuing labor works fundamentally and how performers are often exploited in the industry for how our labor in the music creation process is divided, often to the benefit of composers/producers/etc. You’re not living off someone else’s labor if you yourself are producing labor value, you are being exploited for your value if someone else is living off your own labor. Unfortunately, due to the nature of musical labor, this can often result in a cycle where selfish artists on either side of the coin (performers or composers, for example) can equally exploit each other for one’s own gain, if they don’t understand the nature of labor within the culture industry vs their own artistic aspirations. Heed the tale old as time: the narcissist who forgets his fellow man may only produce mediocrity, no matter how grand the display. Yet this sword may go both ways, as one may always fall for another’s own ambitions and gains.

[@PatrickBartleyMusic]

@@nilesloughlin6845 Both of you have valid points and I really appreciate reading both of them. Thank you all for engaging with this and offering your thoughts!

[@jasongoudeau3985]

Brother!!!! This is so important!! I lived this most of my life after college. Especially when you don't go to a scene where things are happening and you do normal life stuff like getting married and having a family!

[@stevie2673]

Wow this is such an interesting video. I think it really points out how different the jazz scene is now compared the "golden age" of jazz music. With the advent of modern technology and the age of information, music has become infinitely more diverse. Every musician has an infinite library of music to listen to and model their personal style and taste. Back in the 50s for example, your only access to recorded music is whatever they play on the radio, whatever you can afford at your local music store, or whatever records your friends had. The reason that classic jazz is such a developed musical idea is because it was all they had for a long period of time. Jazz was a lot of different peoples takes on one idea/subgenre with little outside influence. whereas today, jazz is now many peoples takes on many different ideas and subgenres of music that has been heavily influenced in many directions by all other forms of music. Being a working jazz musician back in the day meant that for the most part you could always at least be focusing on the same kind of music that you were developing your creative voice off of. Today it seems that you must be much more versatile and willing to play things that take inspiration from many sources that you are unfamiliar with. Of course you can also look at this in a more positive light and see how many opportunities there are to hear and learn diverse musical styles, but it is quite difficult to part with the idealistic image of only focusing on classic jazz and perfecting your personal take on that collective idea. I guess all of this is why artists like you are so nice to listen to, you do such a wonderful job to uphold and perfect the art form of the past while bringing in modern influences and combining it all in such a beautiful, unique and interesting way. It is also wonderful that you share your ideas with us through these videos and streams. Thank you Patrick

[@SandbrycMusic]

This topic is probably the MAIN reason I experienced such strong disillusionment post-college. I didn't even realize that while I was in music school I was working on the kinds of skills that would help me be more suited to being a working musician. And ever since having to come back to my home town most of the projects that I have been part of fell into that category, and it's led to me having a lot of issues with music and its role in my life. Only recently have I started thinking about what projects I do and also start saying no to things so I can free up more time for artistic fulfillment.

[@FretboardToAsh]

Did some stuff as a working musician, for several years played my hands to the bone for indeed very little reward and few opportunities for true self-expression. Found I am much happier teaching and working on my own projects in my own time. Still don't regret the degree in music, it opened a whole world for me.

[@PlonBass]

OMG… you hit the button… In past years I had my own band and the only thing I wanted to be was to be an artist. We hit a lot of good gigs, but it ended and I’d been hired as a working musician. That took me through a lot of thinking of dissapointing to myself. Now I’m in my 40’s and still am a working musician. The pandemic knocked me down about being an artist and I’m still trapped in that hole because the music industry has changed a lot and I don’t know what I want to be. I want to thank you for this video. This is helping me a lot to think what I want to be again.

[@BGdrummer]

WORD! Yeah you are spot on, my friend. Man, how I wish someone would have told me this shit back in the day. I'm in L.A., practicing my ass off for 6-8 hours a day. I answer an add for a drummer, ready to impress them with my killer fucking groove. The first question is, "What's your image?"...and, WELCOME TO THE MUSIC BIZ! (Now I have a great career in I.T.!) Good on ya man. Tell the truth. You can be a working musician but be realistic about what the job actually entails. Including the constant travel and how to work with the occasional "crazy diva who doesn't pay on time" (a real quote to me, from a working musician who plays with "The Big Names"). Bravo.

[@ericvanderbilt-mathews8131]

Got some originals and arrangements ready for my NY debut as a bandleader, ended up having 5 people in the audience at the brewery and lost a little money. But it was the kick I needed to get 2 hours of music together for the future, and the gig was fulfilling and fun. Week later I flew out to Palm Beach and played with an ABBA tribute band and paid my months rent. It's either that or getting a barista or coding job...

[@stevie2673]

This is the most concise description of the life of a jazz musician

[@tallikimanimusic7127]

What is an abba tribute band

[@lextual]

@@tallikimanimusic7127 An ABBA tribute band plays the music of the mega-huge ‘70s band “ABBA”, the Swedish supergroup formed in Stockholm in 1972 who derived the band name from the first letter of each member… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABBA

[@Tomagotcha]

I do mostly AABA cover gigs 🤣

[@ericvanderbilt-mathews8131]

@@Tomagotcha good one! I guess the Swedes love their bridges

[@stewartwforbes]

So much truth in everything you say. . . . I’ve been playing 50 years now and realized that ‘you’ don’t need to be the best to get the ‘working musician’ jobs - just ‘competent’. I’m a sax/doubler. My flute chops are quite good, but sometimes a show will have impossible flute parts that a real flute player would tackle-whereas the sax part doesn’t really matter the same . . . .

[@Eniral441]

I was in artist mode for a long time, especially when I was in college 30 years ago. Alot has changed for me in that time. Now I just want to play anything people give me. However, trying to figure out how to be a working musician when you don't know anyone in a city you've never lived in before has been a struggle. I love your videos.

[@EruVasquez]

Great video, I've found some kind of alternative for this if you have music production skills and it's sync licensing you it's a long term hustle but you can make money form making your music and also make music that is specifically made for sync. Jazz music can get some placement but it's also way harder to get placements with jazz than with rock or raggeton for example. So... It's an alternative but It still being kind of complicated for jazz musicians.

[@EruVasquez]

NOTE: I studied Jazz Guitar, Composition and Arrangement, still practicing jazz guitar for me but Its not my job, I work as a music producer and session guitarist more than anything else but I'm also trying to find a voice as an artist and release my won music so I can have a decent following in some years.

[@PaulHirsh]

I should have been told this sixty years ago. One thing you might have added is the importance of being pleasant company if you want to get and keep work.

[@CarlLewisonSax]

Thanks for talking about this. I NEVER considered that there's a difference, and I'M A WORKING MUSICIAN

[@PunyapatFungtammasarn]

Please do more real talk podcast please, I love it. I’m from Thailand, a working musician on cruise ship. Definitely hard to dedicate time as an artist but at least I don’t have to worry about the money that much. Hopefully I can set myself more as an artist in the future. Cheers bro 🎉

[@marcoperetta5730]

Amazing video, Patrick. Institutions should definitely bring this up on the first year, not only in conservatories but also in institutions that form future teachers, so they don't put years of their lives thinking that they'll work on stage instead of inside a classroom.

[@gabrielbarbalho1099]

Man.. thanks for sharing this kind of content... greetings from Brazil!

[@abadiejazz]

This is what I’m talking about! Thank you Patrick. You understand me and we barely know one another. I’ve been saying this for years.

[@Xavia_Dimoff]

Something that’s deeper about being a working musician than the fact that “it doesn’t require you to be the best” is that it does not require you to be *your* best

[@eliasv.2910]

Four years at University studying Music and I feel like you covered it better than any of lecturers ever did. My lecturer Marian Jago described it similarly in her Popular Music Studies course which she teaches to undergraduates, but you did it in such a direct way!

[@metaforever]

As someone who's not interested in making music but likes knowing more of the behind the scenes, this was really neat to hear, and some of the bits felt like they definitely apply to fields outside of jazz/music too.

[@christianalexander368]

Thank you for talking about this, I hadn't really thought about it this way conciously so I appreciate it. For me, I need to be real with myself but also need to keep loving music no matter what because the joy and love of music is a separate thing from my tangible life as a musician. Thank you again for your beautiful playing and thought provoking words!

[@Watermelon_Man]

Artist: Actualizing *your own* ideas Working Musician: Actualizing *someone else’s* ideas

[@simonmarktaylorsax]

This is a really fantastic discussion. I’ve been a working musician for many years, really enjoyed your point of view and opinion s. Especially “do your job” .

[@trumpetsuazo]

Sending this to a bunch of people. It's great to hear thoughts I've had echoed back at me through the lens of someone that has really been in the scene and worked hard. Thank you!

[@Skooh2000]

Made some great points. I feel Not everyone should be labeled an Artist just because they went to school. The better term is Artistic Support. Whether that be for self or for the supporting others in artistic endeavors. To be considered an “true artist” a level of notoriety or acknowledgement should be reached. A working musician should be considered a noble occupation. Not looked at as a person in the background or lesser talent. Without the working Musicians or artistic support the artist is in a dark room playing by themselves. No recording or means to get the art to others.

[@SuazoJazz1]

Thank you so much for sharing Patrick. So necessary. I absolutely believe that the best way to focus strictly on being an "artist" in this time is to have some sort of part - time side hustle that can eliminate some of the clutter that comes with being an adult AKA bills and give folks the space to dive deep into that path... because its a beautiful path... but it can turn "dark" if things are not balanced. Whenever I've tried to do both "Working musician" + "Artist" I notice that quickly everything can start to turn into a "me" thing... this leads to heavy bouts of loneliness and can definitely lead to depression, because both requiere so much time and dedication... This is not what I want for myself or any of my artistic community... And you're right... NO ONE ever mentions this in an educational setting. Much love!

[@nichowhitegold]

As I step into a career as an artist, I'm having to separate myself from being a working musician. I'm glad you posted this cuz I was thinking about this recently too. Thanks, Patrick, hope to play with you soon!

[@funkallero409]

This is a fantastic lesson for us all, I currently coincided myself a working musician and have worked with several artists on their projects at the same time. Had a nice balance for a while, meanwhile trying to forge my own expressive path and voice. My only thing I’ve learned is that I’ve seen lots of several bands and artists that have never practiced or worked on their instrument (some I have been a part of, and being honest with me at that). Some just want the stardom and instant success and do strike it lucky. I used to have a problem with that as I’ve put hundreds of hours in, but being honest and knowing what is commercial and the music business climate it is was it is. I’m just happy I’m getting somewhere with my sound and voice whilst working a working musician. Hope this makes sense! Incredibly valuable and powerful video man!! 🙏✌️🎶🎹🎼

[@gitarmats]

These videos are so refreshing!

[@Gabriel_Micah]

These real talks I've really needed to keep me grounded bro I 'preciate em all LOL God bless man

[@TheSaxophoneTroll1764]

I needed to hear this. Thank you.

[@椋_りょうノビシロ]

That's good time to hear you talking about this topic

[@ChampionShogo]

This video makes me really grateful to have grown up with artist parents and for my skillset to be a working musician. It was very clear to me from a super young age what my parents did as artists vs what they did for "money work." Realized but never fully processed that that's a distinction so many people haven't understood or made in their lives. I think its great to start this conversation and its awesome that you're using your platform to bring things kinds of things into the discussion!

[@segwaymusic]

Great video Patrick. I would like to add that one of the big things that is missing in the conversation, is talking about the underlying problems for working musicians which revolves around difficulty to get paid. Much of the discussions usually centres around business, marketing and the rest of the sales pitch they make to aspiring and professional musicians. However, we never seems to get to what I call the root cause of the problem which really lies in the world of economics. More specifically, a few micro-economic problems. One of the most important one is "Market Failure". Market failure occurs when the cost of producing a product or service and the value you get for it are out of alignment. What this means is that, despite any effort to reduce cost, use marketing, etc... it is impossible to align the two which results in the cost always more than the value. Music over the past few decades and especially in the last 20 years has essentially lost its commodity value. This results in musicians often investing and spending more of their money than what they get in return. Market Failure is usually caused by what economists call "Externalities" For example, in the record industry, the CD sold very well until the internet and mp3s came about. Then we saw P2P disrupt everything; again, this is an externality. Then iRunes and other online music retailers offered an option that seemed irresistible by everyone and we all jumped on board. Then they changed the delivery method to streaming (again, another externality that cam in to disrupt the normal flow of things). Maybe you have experienced this problem yourself or not but most of the musicians I know have. In a nutshell, the problem is systemic. Most of the sectors in music experience different levels of Market Failure. The good news is that there are tools available to correct Market Failures (and they have to be corrected in order for proper economic function) but unfortunately, most musicians are completely unaware of what economics are (micro-economics in this case). Most politicians either are unaware as well or simply ignoring these problems because their focus is on serving the businesses that are providing the augmentation to the music itself. There are three basic groups in the music industry; Primary Creators (singers, musicians, composers, arrangers, orchestrators, etc...), Secondary Creators (producers, sound engineers, MIDI programmers, etc...) and the Representatives (agents, promoters, venue owners, publishers, etc...). Each has a "gate keeper" function with each's power of negation being different. That power of negotiation also creates a second micro-economic problem that needs to be corrected called "Zero-Sum Game". This Zero-Sum Game can be corrected with proper infrastructure in place with the goal of creating win-win conditions that will benefit each stakeholder. The third things that needs to happen for working musicians, is a system that guarantees two things; legitimization of the transactions and second; guaranteed payment. I spent the last 10 years working on a solution called Live Core which I am still developing today. I'm off to South Africa tomorrow to a music conference and I hope I'll be able to connect some people there and we'll see what happens... Anyway, I could go on but here is food for thought!...

[@AMTunLimited]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to watch the full video, but this IS something I've thought about a lot, and I've taking to thinking of an ARTISAN. I was reading a book about japanese woodworking tools and it talked about the role of the "shokunin", who provides a skill for a CLIENT, which is an important distinction. Working musicians are artisans, which is not a bad thing but should be respected

[@Hyperclefonical598]

Important topic indeed. One major component to include, especially in this tech age, is marketing. Leaning into the artist route seems to require more savvy in promotion or knowing and being tight with people who are into it. Whereas the working musician route affords the delegation of those worries to the entity/people hiring you, sort of thing. As someone who is caught trying to hop onto the artist train I sought out for, there is a way to progress on both fronts, fusing the two realms and that is to market yourself or start a band and hustle. Get your ideas, music out there and network with business people in the process. This enables, eventually your artistry to be the substance of your music at work. - A California Jazz musician

[@EmunStudio]

I don't know how I got here but this is spot on. I talk to my friends about this all the time, but you have put language to it. THANKS

[@AntwanPHoward]

Bro i was just saying this in my Highschool Methods class (how to teach highschool band kids). They asked if you could create a course to teach in a hypothetical school, what would it be? I called it gigging 101, teaching students how to be a working musician. They said why "they dont teach us how to be a musician in the real world." Not everyone is gonna get symphonies and masterclassess. anywho i digress

[@dennisonblackett9302]

I love this practical thinking. It feels like the beginning of a conversation about strategy and how to best educate musicians in the future. In many ways, this is a critique of music education, especially at the college level. It's also a great way to give power to those who want to make music a career and think they have to be "the best" to be musical professionally. I teach high school AND I perform, only now can I really think about the artistic side of my musicianship. So when students talk to me about this I make sure they understand the idea that they are a business and I use that to talk about plans and strategy and investment (time and money). Also, I'd love to see you create that Venn Diagram! I think that Venn Diagram would actually help create the practical lesson plans and curricula of the future. So much great content here, Thank you! Congrats on your move!

[@ceciliamassimino4085]

Excelente video! Para pensar. Es enriquecedor. Gracias!

[@pdbass]

I work with high school and college-level students and this is straight 💯. Thank you for this!!🙌

[@mrfrankdamsax]

Thanks a lot for saying this out loud and clear. The difference is SO important to make. As a college and university teacher, I do my best to explain that to my students.

[@Bgrenimann]

Thank you!

[@KevinBene]

This is a great video Patrick, thank you! Sharing with my students for sure!

[@dethrising]

This topic isn’t talked about enough so thank you for making this video 🙏 I came a similar realization a few months ago having been primarily a working musician in LA and wondered why I was feeling incredibly burnt out. That late night hit into an early morning rehearsal is rough!! I’ve had to make some changes in my life but I’m transitioning into focusing more on being artistic while keeping a small handful of working gigs. I wish I had known that there’s a difference when I left school!

[@JimmyMRollins]

I'm glad I was able to see the truth and reality while still being in undergrad. Another issue is other bands or musicians will undercut by negotiating a lower price.

[@Will-xo1xg]

Thank you for making this. This is a great discussion. I wanted to chime in with my perspective on this. I play sax in the military bands, so I definitely fall into the working musician category. People pursuing music need to accept that it is a life pursuit and you never arrive. If you don't want to burn out, you will have to accept that delaying personal gratification will be necessary. If you want to have a life focused on music, you are going to need something to pay the bills unless your biggest musical desires align perfectly with what employers want. (and you have immense talent/work ethic) The biggest benefit of being a military musician is that you maintain/build musical skills while earning a living. I can support my family while still playing a lot of music. However, I am making the choice to delay my artistic development/gratification. I play whatever I am told to play. Whatever style, whatever ensemble. Sometimes I love it, sometimes I don't. That's the sacrifice. I am always getting better though. It's worth checking out for more modestly talented musicians than Patrick.

[@abadiejazz]

Being an artist is a life long journey, no different than being a MONK.That’s what I love about this life.

[@robfleming5588]

This reminds me of a conversation the jazz festival coordinator at Prescott, AZ had a few years ago with a woman on the flight he was taking from San Francisco to Prescott. She asked him what he did for a living. He replied that he is a musician. She came back with, That's nice, but what do you do for a living?"

[@lukeserrano62]

Great topic Patrick. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a secondary school music teacher, composer and sometime gigging saxophonist. My approach has always been to be ' an ambassador for music' in society, which means that I find the common ground between all my various activities and see them as multiple sides of the same thing. Practically speaking, of course my teaching enabled me to pay for my composing aspirations (recording, launch concerts etc.) whilst my gigging is a way to feel connected to the world of working musicians. As a music educator I know that it is a responsibility I have to have these conversations with young musicians (and sometimes also with their nervous parents).

[@dylanyoung7891]

You’re assessment is spot on man and has been my experience from graduating university with a jazz degree to figuring out how to make a living as a “working musician” and finding the balance between that and artistry

[@GeraldDeLoachMusic]

Thank you for this much needed video. The moment that I realized that I needed to serve the bandleader (wedding band or other types of bandleaders) on these "working musician" gigs and that these bands weren't about me or my skills is when I started to actually enjoy these types of gigs! I had the right expectation about what the job actually was...and...there is a lot of joy to be found in "serving others" on the "working musician" gigs.

[@jimbutler2784]

This is really a great video and channel. I really respect how clear-headed and articulate you are, and at the same time being such an incredible saxophonist and artist!

[@bolin4814]

Thank you patrick. Always great to hear things from you.

[@stevekeller4814]

One thing. Even as an artist playing my own music I have always valued the mind-meld aspect of playing with other musicians. But as a “working musician”, in a big band or even a 3 horn section, even though I’m playing someone else’s music exactly as they wrote it, I’m still trying to get that mind-meld spiritual connection with my fellow players. We are building a sound together and we all have to hold this spinning ball in the air together. This is a skill one must have to work for someone else, and it’s also a skill you must have for people to want to play your music. So musically, it’s not as big a dichotomy as it sounds like. But this is a good conversation to have, especially with people just starting out.

[@alisonCNboy]

pure gold ideas! thank you !

[@MrDarkstar620]

Hey brother. Interesting topic. Sensitive, provocative and rightly so. I'm at a point with learning the "skills and risks" way. It seems creativity and anxiety are highest when this goes on. But teaching, being an artist, and just starting as a 'working musician' feels better than a few months ago. Nice video. Had a feeling you was into Manga. One Piece the GOAT. Deuces.

[@KrimsoMusic]

Thank you so much for speaking truth all the time, Pat! People should be having these conversations more both in the scene and inside the classrooms. Take care man!

[@dylanvinitamusic2033]

Thank you so much. Instant subscribe.

[@noahbeckett8471]

I’ve literally been thinking about this exact topic for years now and it’s something that no one at my music school, including professors and directors, ever talked to me about. When I left music school 3 years into it, I decided I wanted to pursue music on my own terms rather than being forced to perform to meet someone’s agenda. Funny enough, playing saxophone pretty much made into an artist and that’s what I think I always wanted to be. Ever since I started playing jazz in high school I loved to improvise and improvising led me learn about composing. I became obsessed with experimenting with different sounds and that led to trying to learn every instrument I could get my hands on. Music school honestly kind of killed my creativity because I was constantly being told the sounds that I liked were wrong and that music had to fit had to into a specific framework for it to be worthy of studying. Being away from it now has honestly made me the most depressed I’ve ever been because I’ve been caught in this place between not being good enough to get called for the gigs like I used to, and having so much versatility creating musical ideas but not being able to bring those ideas to life. Thank you so much for this video 🙏🏾 I hope it can reach the masses because this information could seriously save lives. Much love ❤🎷

[@MikeLeeMusicSax]

Thank you Patrick. Always wonderful to hear you speak and play. I do laugh when you say you're being "dark" because everything you communicate is infused with joy, even if it is challenging. I would hate for any of my students to lean on the "artist" end of things without understanding how developing the skill set to realize another artist's vision can shape their own artistic presence. I hope to see you again very soon.

[@lawvawnisrael4853]

Great video Patrick. It's so funny you made this and I had to make this decision earlier in my musical life. Most especially when I would do a show and someone would ask me to do a John Coltrane song and I would say to them I don't do those kind of songs on my sets because I'm not focused on simply pleasing you but everyone in the listening audience. I am a working musician not necessarily an artist trying to produce the Mona Lisa but a working artist. I'm glad you brought this topic up because it's a much needed topic of discussion we as musicians need. Keep up the good work my friend and I hope you're enjoying Japan. Come home sometime when you can I would love to listen to you personally. YHWH bless you my friend.

[@Pericles777]

This is great. This cleared up confusion about what I’m even trying to do with my life and skills😂😂😂 I’ve been trying to do both and have found it not working, this made perfect sense

[@kop363]

Oh man I've been out of the loop with your community Pat, but I'm super happy for you that you're in Japan!

[@sengchen]

Thanks for this video. I’m a working filmmaker (a collaborator, not an originator, I tend to say) who has been trying to figure out how to present my day-to-day, gig-to-gig working life to an undergrad media studies class tomorrow without getting too dark (ie talking about how I barely take phone photos on vacation nowadays when I used to dream of being a photojournalist). I think you struck a good balance here, it will definitely help structure some of my ideas.

[@phillc]

You have a lot of life and career lessons to share Patrick. Have you written a book about your story? Very deep. I learnt a lot from your Art vs. Music dilemma on Better Sax. Well done.

[@carlinmuccular]

Excellent video man. Thanks!

[@marcsiegel1349]

I agree. Having gone through traditional music school and then helping to create a music program at a community college where I have tried to focus on teaching 'working musician' skills as I'm also a working musician still. Good stuff! Thank you!

[@oscah_whisky]

When I decided I want to be a "classical" saxophonist, I did not realize that's more of a field for the artist, so I begrudgingly took up Jazz/commercial saxophone so that I could get gigs. I never got good at either 'cause I was unknowingly torn between wanting to be this amazing classical saxophonist but also wanting to be a working musician. Issa evil world we live in, lol.

[@NoahKawaguchi]

Thank you so much for this!!! I think another important aspect to this that I'd love to hear more about is how this plays out differently for different instruments. I feel like as a saxophonist in "jazzschool," people valued me so much more as a bandleader/artist and didn't really value me as a sideman/working musician, whereas for rhythm section players, it was the opposite. (Of course if you're the absolute best of the best ever you'll get called no matter what instrument you play, but I'm talking about people who are basically just very solid players.) I think a lot of us came in with similar mindsets toward playing and passion for the music at the beginning of freshman year, but this discrepancy between instruments kept reinforcing itself by validating “artist” type endeavors by horn players and “working musician” type endeavors by rhythm section players. I don't mean every single person followed this rule, but I'd say it did hold true as a general trend between horn players and rhythm section players (or more specifically, horns/voice/guitar vs. piano/bass/drums). By the end of senior year, my rhythm section peers were busy all day with other people's rehearsals they didn’t even want to be in while I was busy working on developing my own artistry and compositions, yes, but also just focusing more on non-music stuff or at least non-performance stuff because I felt like there was no way I was going to get anywhere career wise being only a player. Obviously I could’ve done a lot more to make myself more attractive in the working musician way, and maybe I’m just bad or socially awkward or something idk, but I think I would’ve been a lot better prepared to make the best decisions if I had had a better understanding of this idea of artist vs. working musician, so thank you for putting this out there.

[@junestone]

Really great topic! Living as an artist who works as a musician is absolutely a balance of extremes. You're constantly switching between introversion and extroversion, self-discovery, and then unconditional giving. I had no idea the emotional and spiritual strength life was going to ask of us when music school ended. 😆 Thanks for the video!!!