Paul, Gender, and the Women in Leadership Debate: Dr. Cynthia Long Westfall

Dr. Cynthia Long Westfall is Associate Professor of New Testament at McMaster Divinity College and is the author of the highly acclaimed book Paul and Gender, which has been hailed as one of, if not the, best biblical defenses of the egalitarian view of women in leadership. In this podcast conversation we talk about what led Cynthia to write the book and we work through a few key passages, such as Ephesians 5:21-33, 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, and 1 Timothy 2-3.
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[@EmWarEl]

I struggle with the idea that God would leave matters of critical importance to hinge on nuances of a word or sentence. Which suggests to me that God is not at all concerned with keeping women from leading, and much, MUCH more concerned with the integrity and character of leaders, start to finish.

[@tabethacordell3352]

This is super thoughtful. Thank you so much for sharing Mike!

[@karlolsen7656]

God is clear in all that he commands of us. Check out this series: kzbin.info/aero/PLZ3iRMLYFlHuBtpJlwi7F5JYw3N5pKyLC

[@EmWarEl]

@@karlolsen7656 I like Mike Winger. I'll definitely watch it. Thanks! I started thinking through this issue as a young Christian in the C&MA, which does not ordain women (or didn't then, at least... don't know if that's still the case). But then we went on a mission trip to the Dominican Republic and built a church for a woman who went around starting churches. At the town we worked in, she would stand down in a oil changing pit and preach, and people would gather around the pit on Sundays to hear her. So of course I concluded that a "doctrine" which applied in the U.S. but not on an island could not be very important. Also grew up with Pentecostal neighbors who were amazing conservative Christians but had a female pastor. But, those are anecdotes and the Word is the Word.

[@Himmiefan]

@@EmWarEl The Word is frequently interpreted to uphold the sinful, worldly male entitlement, and sorry, Mike Winger is bad about this. Churches like this attract narcissistic men and create narcissistic men. Look at that woman in the DR. What is her fruit? Her fruit looks good from how you described it, so the Spirit must be moving in her. So yeah, Paul was speaking to a certain situation and not for all time (shoot look at Christ telling Mary Magadalene to tell the males of his resurrection). Many men like Mike Winger can't accept this.

[@rhhamlin08]

There were several women leaders in the Old and New Testaments.

[@timconley2787]

As I listen to this video, I'm hearing so many very technical theological and academic terms, that I think the discussion is way up there in the sky and needs to be brought back down to planet earth. I want to hear a discussion in layman's terms and just keep the conversation focused on the standard scriptures being debated

[@chrisregas5045]

Speculation does that. The discussion of 1 Cor 11 was so far from the text it became abstract and merely cultural speculation.

[@rachelroelofs9383]

If you've done a bit of groundwork on the subject it's comprehensible. I'm very much a layman but I have done a bit of prior reading on the subject and I could follow it. It's just that there was not enough time for all the detail necessary.

[@user-iz8np3vv4i]

@@rachelroelofs9383 (I haven't watched this video.) I am an egalitarian. If you are still studying I have some thoughts. Also a short essay on Deborah.

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

here is laymans's terms as simp[e and realistic as i can make it--- 2-- There are many fb groups and podcasts of women telling their very sad and tragic stories and they all point back to patriarchy as the cause where the man misuses scripture to browbeat and abuse the wife and children. 3-- the only Christians offering help and resources for abused women are the egalitarian groups while the patriarchy groups throw more scripture at these abused wives telling them to go back to those husbands and submit and obey more. Reality shows it does not fix the problem.

[@justchilling704]

@@chrisregas5045Do you mind elaborating?

[@Leadeshipcoach]

Great interview!

[@elizabethbillingsley5534]

I am studying all of this right now. I need to get her book too.

[@martinblack2450]

Very thought provoking Interview Thank you. This woman is teaching, and created to do so. Interesting to hear about the cultural Greco Roman influences, but would also add that in Ephesus in particular Paul’s instructions are to push against the flamboyant sexual and ungodly worship at the Temple of Diana where the church was a counter community.

[@davidakerman3547]

This is good stuff. A very easy and accessible treatment of the basics. Could do with more sessions to go into greater complexity. Every verse and passage in the Bible is provisionally understood without context.

[@PHILHAMILT0N]

Does the word hypotassō not mean submit/put under?

[@joemisek]

Yes, I think 1 Tim 3 specifically addresses women deacons, and the idiom of "one-woman man" is applied to them because it is a qualification of all deacons.

[@justchilling704]

I think I’m reality it’s not about gender a man who is married is used an example of how a leader in the church must be upright and mature in the faith. You don’t have to be a married man to be a deacon or pastor.

[@EdSuastegui]

Ephesians 5:22 may not have the word "submit" but a parallel verse (from a parallel passage that addresses the same household relationships), Colossians 3:18, does. How do we resolve that?

[@rachelroelofs9383]

The point is that wives are to submit to their husbands in the same way that all believers submit to one another. The meaning is carried over from v21. It specifies "wives to your own husbands" in order to prioritise that relationship. Submission to the welfare of your spouse comes first. That's where the head-body metaphor comes in. It's depicting unity, one body, one flesh. So you submit yourself to the welfare of your spouse first and foremost.

[@ericv3975]

It’s borrowing from verse 21 which further proves complementarianism. Submission is not reciprocal

[@rachelroelofs9383]

​@@ericv3975 actually it's the exact opposite. V21 defines the type of submission being talked about here - one to another. This cannot be in the sense that we are all authorities of each other. Rather it is submission to another or others for the sake of their welfare or unity, which is one of Paul's main theme in Ephesians. We practice mutual submission every day. It's typically called compromise. A husband might adjust his plans because he finds out that his wife needs to do something more important. At other times it might be the wife making adjustments. Sometimes both will make compromises on the same issue. This is what reciprocal submission looks like in everyday life. This is the type of submission Paul is referring to in v21 and is therefore necessarily the same type of submission he is speaking of in v22. Submission not to an authority, but for the sake of the welfare of her husband and the unity of their marriage. And if you consider what the love commanded of a husband for his wife is supposed to look like in practice, it bears a striking resemblance to submission for the sake of unity and welfare of the other.

[@ericv3975]

@@rachelroelofs9383 No, an authority, for the husband is the head of the wife just like Jesus is the head of the Church.The word "submit" refers exactly to an authority structure. Look up the word and the context. Do parents have authority over their children? (Eph. 6:1) Of course they do.

[@rachelroelofs9383]

@@ericv3975 the word "head" is metaphorical and contextually the meaning of authority is a poor fit for reasons that I've outlined above. A metaphorical picture of unity is far more consistent with his message. Why do you think he purposely pairs submission with love instead of authority? Perhaps because he was trying to make a point that marriage is not an authority structure? Also, Paul uses a different word in Ephesians 6:1 to Ephesians 5:21. The relationships are not the same, yet it is worth noting that Paul also requires mutual respect for children from parents in v4.

[@paigeu23]

Manfolk are going to be really triggered by this because the way they see it the only hope they have of getting respect and authority is if it is a clear and unambiguous biblical command. But if your wife needs a command and the implied threat (hell) in order to show respect you have either chosen poorly who to marry or you conduct yourself in a way that is difficult to respect. Women naturally prefer relationships with men they feel respect and admiration towards. I always read the passage as "submit to your OWN husbands" because there was a tendency in the early church for women to have more Christian zeal and devote themselves entirely to the needs of their church or pastor, possibly ignoring their husband's and families.

[@rachelroelofs9383]

Agree completely. "Wives to your own husbands" emphasises the priority of the marriage relationship. It's not a good witness to go around submitting yourself to the welfare of others while neglecting your own spouse.

[@roykhan2730]

And polygyny is still a go with mutual submission of the 3 wives and the husband doing the dishes...Got it!! If she can't show that the New Covenant put a stop to polygyny then her thesis is wrong.

[@80Edog]

I guess only PhD biblical greek scholars will truly understand scripture. These two literally said nothing of substance. So i guess Jesus is not the head either? U guys are so 😢. We are to love and respect everyone. The roles are clear. U confuse what is not confusing.

[@rhhamlin08]

Jesus is the source of life to the church.

[@westyso.cal.8842]

God, in all of His wisdom and genius saw to it to create men and women in such a magnificent way that they are able to minister to the needs of the church in such a balanced way. Women are wired to be maternal, compassionate, nurturing, tender, etc. and are perfectly equipped to serve and minister to the children’s ministries, hospitality ministries, young women’s ministries, etc. Women are perfectly designed by God to be wonderful care-givers and fair distributors of resources, etc. Praise God for His wisdom.

[@elizabethbillingsley5534]

And so much more!

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

women can be anything God equips them to be even strong warriors and men can be soft and nurturing--- the underground church in the middle east is led by women....since being a christian means a death sentence or torture yoiu know therse women have to be very strong and faithful and brave. --i am sure they are not doing cutesy cut and paste little bible lessons--they are teaching their people to follow the holy spirit

[@justchilling704]

This is silly. All the traits you claimed of women are displayed by men, stop stereotyping then claiming it’s God’s order. The difference in men and women is how we tend to express said traits. No father should lack in tenderness.

[@billylee1041]

#RepealThe19th

[@rgnold2517]

Everyone comes to the table with their minds already made up by what they want to be the outcome. Men have a deep need to be above the lowliness of the woman because of their insecurity, women would just like to rise to where God placed her and walk out God's will for her. It all depends on what you want and how you see yourself. Very, very few actually study out the scriptures to get the whole doctrine taught by scripture. Believe what you want, whatever satifies your flesh, no one actually gives in to the word...

[@elizabethbillingsley5534]

When she talked about Paul's command to men, God did this in Genesis. He gave the command to Adam, not Eve. Paul was doing exactly what God did then.

[@abbywong5403]

This interview is so bad. This is not scholarship. It’s reading whatever you want from the scripture in my opinion.

[@rhhamlin08]

Dr Cynthia Westfall is a greek language biblical scholar.

[@infobubble]

Prime example, this lady is, how too much learning makes things worse, and the most fundamental understandings complicated. Christian feminism...

[@rhhamlin08]

It actually doesn't contradict what Jesus told his followers that the unbelievers try to lord authority over others, but that won't be the way among His followers, the great will be the servant etc. Humanity was made in God's image, we are all equal. Both spouses submit to God & eachother. Jesus is our source of life.