Paul Kirtley Interview - Part 1 - The Dunning-Kruger Effect "Not knowing what you don't know"

[@PaulKirtley]

Great convo Gordon. Thanks for suggesting the topics. I hope what we discussed is useful to others too. Looking forward to part 2...

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Thanks Paul, it was great to hear and share your views on these important topics. Some feathers may have been ruffled but I think they needed to be ruffled!

[@Am_Brew]

One thing I've learnt about skill learning is no matter what the skill and how good you are you can always learn something new. Always listen to what others have to say even if you think you know better, you might just grow from it.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

I agree 100%. Thanks for watching

[@gav7651]

Fantastic conversation. Thanks for sharing.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

My pleasure. Glad you found it helpful.

[@AussieLifestyle208]

Thanks for shouting out Scotty. Love his videos and yours. Cheers man 👍❤

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Cheers. Scotty has some great content and he is introducing people to bushcraft in an exciting yet respectful way. Thanks for watching

[@ournaturalhabitat]

Wise words to give pause for thought. Many thanks

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

I'm glad you found the conversation thought provoking . Thanks for watching.

[@wolfmaan]

Well thought out, appropriately judgemental, and non-confrontational. Very well done, mates. Cheers for this.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you enjoyed our discussion. Thanks for watching.

[@Petestleger]

Excellent conversation, and the principles seem to apply in most areas of life. I'm no bushcrafter, but found in the areas I have worked that it's worth listening to everyone, not just the 'experts', because sometimes someone new to an area of knowledge or practice can come up with a fantasic idea or approach, because they have fresh eyes and a perspective we lack. Another area I think most of us fall down is getting so engrossed in a technique or product to achieve a result, we forget what it is we're actually trying to achieve overall. I've found it worth stepping back once in a while to look at the bigger picture. Again, it can totally change your perspective. Doesn't always make for a better result, but sometimes it does. One other ramble on my part, I'm always wary of someone saying this is THE way to do something. No mate, it's A way to do it, by you, in your situation. We're all slighty different, and we're all in a different context. I hope this video makes its way around the KZbin bushcraft content creators. I watch a fair few, and even with my total lack of bushcraft experience (although many years of using sharp things on constuction sites) some of them make me wince. One (no names...) appeared to me, compared to people like Ray M, Paul K etc. have quite sloppy techniques with axes, and sure enough, one video he appeared with a large bandage on a limb after an axe-related accident. Some of these people have large audiences. Oh, and yes, love Scotty's channel, for all the reasons you give. Thank you both so much for this. It's made me think, and made me question, and that is so valuable. Will try not to type a long-winded comment on Part 2... Sorry, one more - Wow, Paul mentioned Ernest Thompson Seton. I have a couple of his books, and I thought he was just some oddity my dad found in second hand book shops. Must get them out of storage.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Thanks so much for your feedback. I'm glad you got a lot out of the interview. Paul is an extremely knowledgeable guy with a level and standard far above anything I have seen. He is also extremely down to earth and humble. At the same time he calls a spade when it's a spade and that needs to be done because there are a lot of fakes out there. It is sad that people judge someone's ability by the number of KZbin follows they have. There are however some good guys out there on KZbin that actually have god skills and knowledge and have managed to mix both. They are few and far between though! The NSW education system is adding bushcraft to its outdoor curriculum which is fantastic. But with that comes a risk of things not being taught properly as it depends on the teachers teaching it. Who are they and what is their experience? Bushcraft and survival teaching needs to be done to a high standard but how is that policed? We don't want to dumb it down so there the education department needs to ensure that the teachers teaching it are properly trained. Thanks for watching.

[@BuckMckawtheotherone]

And there's a part 2? Wow! Good stuff. I am a member of Paul's Online Bushcraft Course and the Plant ID Masterclass. Paul is highly qualified, yet he is humble and open to learn from others. It's really what you don't know that you don't know which can cause problems. Another good read is Mors Kochanski's book: 'The Grand Syllabus'. That book is another mirror to view ourselves through. Mors outlines his course curriculum for instructors; and it's not easy. Then, despite all the training comes the actual dirt time out there. As Cody Lundin says, 'You lie; they can die.' It's a life or death responsibility to instruct survival or bushcraft. This is probably one of the most important videos out on You Tube about the subject.

[@wealdjourneyman]

Really great video, thanks Paul and Gordon

[@martinlee9391]

Wow...! Two legends. Thank you both of you.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

👍

[@budget-adventure]

Great insight and thanks for sharing.

[@beccig2216]

Thank you for your video. Your conversation really resonated with me. I found it to be both informative and humbling. This is my 4th year working as an outdoor instructor for a company that runs school camps. My role aa an Activity Instructor is to be able to run many different activities, 18 in fact (ranging from Raft building, to Leap of Faith, to climb, to Archery, to bushcraft, and anything in between! The obvious downside to instructing that many different activities is the fact that I feel like im a 'jack of all trades, expert to none!' ... This is because we are only ever trained at the level of being competent enough to instruct a '90min taster session' of a particular activity. .. only being given a certain amount of training, at the start i found myself feeling inadequate to be teaching such things, and in the back of my mind feared being asked questions that i had no answer for, leaving me feeling less than competent. This feeling compelled me to learn more, so over the years ive spent a lot of time outside of work emersing myself in as much information on a particular activity so to build my knowledge base and skill set. . These days i feel a lot more competent in sharing my skills and knowledge with my students. Yes, there is always something new to learn. Even when it comes to teaching, even though I have a natural ability to connect to and engage with my students, over the years i have also learned to use a different approach when teaching, as every group, every individual is unique. And as has been said before .. There is always something new ro learn. 😌

[@dimtillon7529]

thank you Gordan I love your content, please produce more. Agape.

[@SmithandWesson22A]

2 of the best blokes around. Good stuff.

[@XaLoiVlog]

good guide, much needed, guide to jungle and overnight in the wild.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Glad you are enjoying the videos and getting something from them. Thanks for watching

[@oliverwolf5074]

00:36:31 this is what it comes down to. You can have all the knowledge in the world and be not good at transferring it, or know basics and are very good at transferring that.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

I agree. Not sure what your point is but everything needs to be transferable, relevant and retainable.

[@WoodyAndy]

Fascinating area of discussion and well presented. So many thoughts and questions, particularly about how things were done before the concepts of 'academia', 'litigation' and 'experts' existed 😁. This knowledge we discuss and apply (for many these, days as a hobby) has been passed down for thousands of years through necessity, and in that context, if something works it works - and endures. I was lucky enough to live outdoors for a year in a situation where we depended on such skills (and each other) and shared them, not from a position of getting paid to teach, but because we had a necessity and passion to pass on knowledge, information, techniques - for day to day living in the field. Yes, we had 'experts' who had chainsaw licenses, climbing tickets, biology degrees, army training, engineering backgrounds etc, but there was a huge and probably predominant element of 'folk' knowledge and learning due to the primitive nature of our environment. Some major takeaways from the GBS (which I was fortunate enough to attend) were the concepts and relevance of: context, adaptability and necessity (and I think that necessity is intertwined with integrity to an extent). I feel that due to the nature of 'bushcraft' as an area of learning, experiential learning in the field is by far the best way to ensure these skills are learnt safely and effectively. The person passing on the skills can assess the physicality of the learner - body language, technique etc, the suitability of materials they have, the unedited success or failings, their visible responses to challenges. They can step in if needed. The 'real world' context gives the learner a more immediate feedback of how important and appropriate their skills and techniques are and the need to be flexible and adaptable (say if there are changes in weather/resources/energy levels). I think there is a danger of 'orthodoxy' that we often get with academic understandings of these areas of experience. Adaptability has been a huge part of our evolution as a species - and continues to be so - and often, textbook methodologies can be superceeded or augmented by 'out of the box' thinking or unique situations that may arise. Bottom line for me - field expediency is not easily taught in textbooks and nobody is prepared for every eventuality. Apologies for such a lengthy response (and please feel free to pull apart my musings), but your discussion was very thought provoking and I look forward to part 2! I also didn't realise you had a KZbin channel so that's another bonus! All the best, Andy

[@thx5001]

Given the practical aspect of bushcraft it is better to show that you can do a thing in order to qualify your skill level, so you can see the difference between fire lighting with a ferro rod and a bow drill. However, doing something and teaching somebody to do something are very different skill areas, so would be value have a an instructor qualification based on learning how to teach and then running a teaching session in a controlled, observed and assessed environment.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Yes these are all things that would be good to have and implement. As a trained teacher you are trained on "how" to teach. Unfortunately as Paul says, there is sadly no recognised award for bushcraft or survival training. We put our faith in the integrity and skill level of the teacher/instructor. Anyone who cares about teaching a subject well and maintaining a high standard should have invested significant time on learning how to teach. As we know this is not always the case and there a re a few charlatan's out there. Thanks for the feedback and thanks for watching.

[@Mangyman]

Really great information here mate!!

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Cheers, glad you found it useful. Thanks for watching.

[@stephans.3107]

Nice to see a video from both of you again - the topic is difficult to deal with, but certainly important. I would not teach anyone but my own children and I always go by the proven experts in bushcraft (you are also one of them👍 😁). With the modern media it is just such a thing - there is the risk of misinformation...on the other hand, it is possibly only the interest in the subject awakened. How popular should bushcraft be, or become? Do we want to have hordes of hundreds of thousands? Here in Germany, during the unspeakable C0rona time, some things have been built by "bushcrafters" in forests, which should not have been done...it already starts with what is bushcraft and what is "idiots in the forest".

[@mikemasek6249]

Well done. Points that hit home are: Education vs entertainment Knowing a skill vs being able to teach a skill Book/video knowledge vs. real life experience The age difference in the YT crowd vs the older folks with field experience The ego of being an 'expert' vs teaching to empower people with knowledge and skills One point I would add is knowing your limitations as an instructor. A relative newcomer to the field can teach flint and steel if they have real world experience in that task. This is good as long as they don't present themselves as experts in fire making or survival in general.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Yes,knowing a skill and being able to teach it are two very different things. Never teach what you can't do yourself or don't know. A lot of people erroneously assume that because they can do something, they can automatically teach it but that is not true! Teaching also needs to be done at a level that also maintains a standard, especially in bushcraft. Thanks for watching

[@duckman12569]

Sounds like a case of 'buyer beware' when dealing with a topic where life and death are so finely separated.

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

It sure is. Thanks for watching

[@toddwilson1230]

Great conversation. Something I have also noticed happening in Australia is the number of channels and schools popping up with questionable background / experience. I am a novice but love watching the real experts and hope to do a course with you Paul at some point in the future, when home life allows. I feel your assumptions of the population is correct in that many have no idea at all and think some of these channels/ schools are experts. I also associate with what you have mentioned about the dinosaurs in an organisation, that may be great instructors but fail to contemporise their understanding of the field outside of the organisation or even corps/ unit.

[@bencooper6616]

Would it be possible to have access to this conversation via your podcast also? Much easier to listen to in a podcast app than the KZbin app which doesn’t let you minimise and listen. You have to have the YT app open/phone unlocked (on Apple devices at least) . Thanks as always for all of this brilliant (free!) content. :)

[@BushcraftSurvivalAustralia]

Unfortunately I don't have a podcast. You are thinking of Paul's podcast, "The Paul Kirtley Podcast". Paul interviewed me a while back and that's available on a few different platforms. I have listened to YT interviews before while in the car (obviously not watching it) and had no issue. I guess it depends on reception. Sorry I can't be of more help..

[@mickme8914]

Gday Gordon.

[@nacholibre1962]

As they say, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” I believe that most people go through life singularly lacking in self-awareness and that distorts their perception of reality, especially in their understanding of their own abilities. An example is the case of a person who attends a few martial arts classes and thinks he can take on the world, when in fact he is probably no more capable at fighting or self-defence than someone who has taken no classes at all. It is classic delusion that is probably only going to be dispelled when he actually comes into contact with a more capable opponent. When it comes to Bushcraft and Survival, which I teach, I introduce myself as a student and you should see the looks I get. The fact is that for the appropriately self-aware person, and someone who is humble, they not only have a good grasp of what they don’t know, but they are hungry for more. And it is relative, too. I might appear to be an expert to a person just starting out (and the temptation in some who do not have a handle on their ego is to feed that notion), but I might appear as an amateur to a true “expert”. I would describe myself as an advanced student. I’ve learned a lot, but I will never quit learning. Take plants for instance. I’ve learned so much and yet feel as if I am just scratching the surface. So the Kruger-Dunning effect is more common in people than, perhaps, is even initially apparent. And it doesn’t mean that those people are unintelligent (although they may be that, too), but it simply means that due to (probably) a variety of variables (as well as their ego), they are ignorant of their own limitations and even shortcomings.

[@vietnamsurvival7213]

Hi