Paul's Ascent To Paradise - Dr. James D. Tabor

[@lindabishop1402]

OMG, Dr Tabor, I remember seeing you as a commentator on various network mystery docs, or biblical docs, archeology, etc etc and Shimon Gibson, Dr Finklestein, as well as various expert female PhDs that are also well respected today. This was maybe late 90s, 2000s onwards. Thank you Thank you, I have followed you and your work since then 😊 and the others. Your work has only deepened my faith in God. You're an angel of God, Elohim Jehova, Allah, etc. I love you sir, and your wife and her work. Your both bleassings to humanity. ❤❤❤❤❤😊😊😊😊

[@darrylthomas815]

Really have enjoyed Dr. Tabor's comments, and it's a trip seeing him pop up in so many documentaries and platforms. I'm very interested in his views on Paul and his visions of Christ which went so far in shaping the dominant Christology of the faith.

[@bludgeoncorpinc.6768]

Excellent conversation.

[@vaguerantk8686]

If a movie was made of you, Jake, I'm sure Nicholas Cage could play you!

[@alexchavez4951]

Asking Jesus to remove a thorn, it’s not saying there was any communication! He just was praying and realizing that he still had that thorn means Jesus didn’t want to remove it. I think we are misinterpreting the letters of Paul. There was never a two way communication!

[@SobekLOTFC]

Nice interview, Jacob. PATP is Dr Tabor's essential book for sure.

[@stevenv6463]

Interesting lecture, thanks again

[@BenjaminLove_Modern_composer]

Historian Norman Cantor (now deceased) but Columbia U emeritus suggested the thorn in Pauls side was epilepsy

[@elmonixon4392]

I am surprised that Tabor doesn't connect Paul's near-death out of body experience with paul's stoning to death at Listra. Also, careful research might show that Paul's stoning took place about fourteen years prior to 11 corinthians 12.

[@nadzach]

In a sense, our journey is retracing the steps taken in moving away fron Adan's conversational relationship with God. I was thinking that John baptizing in places that may approach the temple are indicative of the return. My memory is that the mark conversions took place at THE Jrdan and matthew at a jordan. I dont remember the luke location, but in John it ought to be back at THE Jordan (just thinking.) But the way back to the garden would be from outside the kingom, through the wilderness, field and back to the garden. I've heard people talk about conversation with God. I wish i could respond. The fear in his presence is too overwhelming. And the things that go through my head are embarassing. The nature of the breathed voice like יענה is to speak in mysteries. On one visitation when "the benefactor" wanted to make me a gift (i think he was meaning give me a gift) a horse....one dead (and i immediately thought, "What am i supposed to do with a dead horse. Eat it!") ...and a living one. I couldnt respond. I missed another opportunity for a conversation. But i understand this as Pharoah's army being satan's army, loot washed up on the shore. The living one is a unity of one. This is the Lord, in some sense, showing up to trample Jezebel to death. The one dead is singular. The living one a unity. But i wish i had at least said something about accepting the gift. I didnt even say "thankyou." Yes, this is position of the "good part" or glory. But its not that the disciple is glorious. It's more like the experience of glory. I've had a great deal of trauma in my life. The Lord prepared me and enabled me to handle it...more than once. And yet he didn't heal me. Like Job i lost my wealth...millions. i lost my beautiful homes...and looking back has been a wrong iv'e been overcoming. I lost the use of my left hand and i miss my evenings with the violin. Cancer drugs wiped my memory and I've irretractable pain. More. So, it has been a long time now and congenital heart disease might get me like the cat in the movie "Paulie." I want people to know there is a way back to God. I will tell this. I ran into a brother and in conversation he said, "If the church people only knew who they are." I answered, "I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus." Something happened. This was my second beginning. With God's help I was able to take an important step toward accepting God's will as my will. It has always been about the word, grace and faith.

[@BenjaminLove_Modern_composer]

Sorry I have missed you.In the Bart Erhman podcast a few days ago I had a super chat question written out.But no jokes literally when I went to hit the send button the podcast ended.I was also on a cell# at the time not my laptop and that may have slowed things a bit

[@theCosmicQueen]

i think it falls into the realm of the Gift of Prophecy, if a Believer hears from Christ or speaks to Him conversationally and had experiences of seeing Him or hearing His voice. It is spiritual hearing and / or vision at least. Proofs of some sort usually will happen so that the person with the gift will be able to prove it to others who question it. So, some may be real, or some may not really be what the person claims. God normally and historically has provided proofs for the people.

[@tookie36]

Or “I asked the lord three times” he is saying this to draw parallels between him and Jesus. Bc that would of been a tradition already established.

[@boxerfencer]

Good stuff

[@ronkebarber6238]

2 Corinthians 12:1-4. 14 years ago, Paul would have met with the Apostle John and Daniel- Revelation 4:1; Revelation 10:1-7, when the shut prophecies were ready to be accomplished, which I believe did have something to do with the mystery of God which had been hidden before the foundation of the world. Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 16:25-26; Colossians I:25-29; Psalm 25:14; Matthew 13:11.

[@tookie36]

Paul didn’t get all his revelations only from his vision of Jesus. He must of known many things about Christians in order to persecute them so it seems odd to say everything comes from his vision of Jesus

[@zyxmyk]

to say Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was temporal lobe epilepsy seems too obvious, but it really may have been true. Not that we'll ever know.

[@tonyharms7430]

You can’t sleep with your father’s wife because it’s an usurpation of your father’s position. Just like when Absalom overthrew David the first thing he did was to sleep with David’s wives. It’s written as if it’s a political move not to do with desire. Just a suggestion

[@nadzach]

"Born again" in the generation described in John is not a reference to our initial salvation. I'd like to think the birth comes easy for some, but this birth is the bringing forth of Christ who is fully formed in us. There is the pain of labor. And a birth.

[@rafaelbatista5452]

Matthew 24,35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

[@sentinaludo1489]

Where was the location that heaven and earth met in 2nd Temple Judaism in the Jewish mind when this text was written? The Temple. Where did God dwell in these same people? The Temple. What happened to the world of the Mosaic covenant and continual animal sacrifices, ie. 2nd Temple Judaism? As prophesied by Jesus himself, the city and temple were destroyed in 70AD as prophesied by Daniel the prophet. Heaven and earth did pass away for that generation and the elements melted with a fervent heat. Replaced by the new covenant in Jesus blood, where God dwells with us now, not in a box, of which believers are co-heirs of the promises given to Abraham and co-rulers in His kingdom which is now in the Spirit. Those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit, not the flesh. And there are still wars to be fought within each one of us and in this dimension in the realm of the spirit. It is eternal life in Christ.

[@rafaelbatista5452]

@@sentinaludo1489 Before the first and second temple, it was Moses tent and even there was Yah in the holy of holies, better yet, when Yeshua turned over the merchants tables. It was because his father (house) was not a market place.

[@sentinaludo1489]

Very good insight. I understand that Solomons Temple was constructed to provide a "house" for the presence of God and the Ark of the Covenant. Which, in 2 Samiel 7:6 God says, "I have not dwelled in a house since the day I brought you out of Egypt." Which of course implies in my understanding God did dwell in a house before, which I would propose was the Great Pyramid. Look at the red Aswan granite coffer in the kings chamber and study the design of the pyramid. Whatever was in the ark of the covenant that brought that "otherworldly" presence of God I suspect was located in that coffer. When God called Moses out of Egypy with Israel, I suspect he took whatever that element or device was. That time stamp marked the end of the bronze age and the collapse pf Egypt and many civilizations in the middle east. What I understand is that this ancient structure wad probably a power generating device or a portal into other dimensions. Very similar to the Sun Pyramid in Teotihuacan that has similar characteristics. Energy is power, as we see today with our petroleum addicted society, take that away and we are basically back in the stone age, and it has happened many times. Exact same foot print and exactly 1/2 the height. YHWH may not have even been the primary diety in the beliefs of these people, more likely it was a holdover religious belief system of Isis, or Ra or El that came out of Egypt. Is it coincidence that Jacob's name got changed to Is-Ra-El? 3 seperate and distinct God figures in ancient history combined into one all powerful God. For western indoctrinated Christians, the thought is beyond belief because that is "not what they were taught by somebody else". But those who live and believe in Christ never die. And eternity is beyond the grasp of most of our minds. John 11:26 We who enter through the gate, Jesus Christ, go in and come out of this higher kingdom of heaven. Some have been called to share the good news of the Gospel to a lost and hurting world that is fading away. The seed falls on all kinds of ground and it is up to us individually to fan that spark of divinity within each one of us into an all consuming fire. "Behold, I make all things new" Rev. 21:5 God's not making all new things as incorrectly taught by men who inserted themselves into the position of teaching God's word, rather than being called by God. Peace to you.🙏

[@johnniehouston1816]

How did Saul/Paul get to go to heaven after al his hatred of early Christians?

[@elizabeth_777]

Hubris maybe…….43 minutes in…..all of these people who interacted with Jesus has this belief……unique to him, so the message will be unique to all of us, each.

[@joaopedrobarbosacoelho455]

If Paul believed the golpel had to be preached to all the nations before the end of world, how could he believe the end was only years or even months ahead? Did he really believe he could convert all gentiles that fast?

[@rosycross3438]

Spreading the gospel was perhaps not unlike starting little Holy Ghost fires which transformed the hearers and inspired them to testify and spread the message also.

[@seoigh]

I take the bit in Corinthians about not marrying your stepmother to actually be more about the contemporary tension between Jewish sects who either believed or did not believe in the afterlife. It was a common polemical device to ask those who believed in an afterlife, "so which wife will you have up there?" The issue being that while divorce was mostly (ish) not believed in, death in childbirth was quite common. Having a string of serial wives was therefore not rare. If you don't believe in an afterlife, this presents no moral issue -- if you do, it does. I think Paul is announcing he is pro-afterlife and fears that his congregation is falling in with those espousing no afterlife (maybe Jamesians). It's notable that the pro-afterlife Pharisees were also the pro-Roman side of the debate. Paul ALWAYS falls in line with the pro-Roman side of things. The pro-Roman bias and frequent antisemitism in the New Testament is a bit of a blind spot for Dr. Tabor. I love his work, but he never seems to understand how bizarre the claim is that Torah-adherent, anti-Roman Palestinian extremists (remember, crucifixion was the Roman punishment for sedition) could be the source of Pauline thought. It's silly on it's face.

[@sebolddaniel]

On which occasion did Jesus tell him that gentiles don't need be circumcised to be Jews? I mean, Jesus was probably a little preoccupied up there in heaven. "By the way, Paul, here is some true gnosis for you...."

[@nadzach]

David had a secret garden.

[@robertjimenez5984]

All I hear in conversations like this is; I think this but we don’t know. Paul is one of many in this era that had a lot of crazy thinking, but living in the time of Nero dominion will make anyone nuts. Buy to say to people to respect the Roman empire and even go to the extreme to say that the Roman authority is giving by god and there for you most obey their laws is very questionable about the real intentions of this Paul figure.

[@dustinellerbe4125]

Did it say "Roman" or does it not say who the specific governing bodies/people are?

[@robertjimenez5984]

@@dustinellerbe4125 he does not specifically say Romans, he says everyone that rules and in this time it was the Roman Empire that ruled. How do we know he’s talking about the Roman Empire? He then talks about taxation which refers to the Roman government.

[@robertjimenez5984]

@fanabudrogh9241 Paul was following his own teaching, focus in the Jewish scriptures. Trying to tie the scriptures to a saver. But Paul never knew the person and even worst, he didn’t agree with this Jesus disciples theology. He even affirm that this is his gospel and that he didn’t receive it from any human, it was a revelation. In other words a delusion.

[@ObjectiveEthics]

Ever since I began reading Paul's writing from an objective point of view it strikes me as plausible that he was actually working with a sect that was controlled by certain Roman politicians who were using Paul in their quest to finally bring the Jews and other Roman citizens under compliance. The general population in Jerusalem was fairly rebellious to Roman authorities and constantly complaining about the taxes. But, as you pointed out, Paul makes a point to convince people that Jesus wants them to be content living as slaves or paying the taxes to Rome or being subjects to Rome. He emphasized the opinion that Jewish traditions no longer had their original value and as long as they simply believed in Jesus the suffering on earth was not to be seen as problematic.

[@theCosmicQueen]

jacob, are you well?

[@tookie36]

Is James real name Jacob? And Jacob’s real name is James? I’m so confused now

[@retribution999]

Why do we trust Paul? Many didn't like the Ebonites. He was persecuting Christians. Hes an odd choice for building up the body of Christ. God could have chosen a faithful righteous follower of Jesus.

[@rickcampanella4254]

The thorn is the flesh?

[@ashishmantri3684]

Ya bro it might as well I think pretty much the dude is in disdain of the flesh that he wished for some great transformation that would take him out of it.

[@rickcampanella4254]

@ashishmantri3684 does God have to redrum in order to save us. Thinking that there's something Impossible God can't do, watch.

[@rickcampanella4254]

@@ashishmantri3684 I think he just means that we still were born with the curse from the garden. We crucify the flesh and walk in the Spirit but our flesh always needs something.

[@ashishmantri3684]

@@rickcampanella4254 ok trying to understand you here , so in some sense as we were born from original sin from the garden ,even though we realised and somehow have walked in spirit there is also some final transformation for our flesh as well ? For me atleast this thorn is the main reason I have been able to walk in spirit actually even though the thorn still in some sense there i have accepted it and don't feel the burden of it anymore

[@rickcampanella4254]

@@ashishmantri3684 Everything is in a state of decay. Justification, Repentance of Sin, Sanctification, Freedom from Sin, Glorification, Exemption from Sin.

[@conkergemini6489]

Paul wasn't perfect it is possible that he's ascension isn't exactly. Perhaps he had a dream and that dream continued even when he was awake. Making it seem 100% percent all true.

[@nadzach]

The strata or courts of heaven align with the courts of the tabernacle. The third heaven is the holy of holies. It never seems appropriate to talk about steps, but the seventh step takes you right to the feet of Messiah. The next step goes beyond the veil of cherubim wings into God's dimension. Remember that no one may touch the throne or mercy seat* without having that grace. I love that psalm 2 is the proton psalm and Isaiah 4 speaks of the elect. The elect are drawn to the proton by cords of love. AND they gather the increase of light with each court...i suppose you would say in quanta. Each of our 3 initial parts are quickened/enlightened. With these we love the Lord with heart, soul and mind. The 8th is, of course, the mystery of might. *Uzza

[@us.nyc.10011]

Paul was and still is the best recruiter. Sadly it's all lies.

[@michaelpudney]

Paul had the stigmata?

[@kulturkriget]

That is an interesting idea. Did stigmatas exist before Christianity in some form?

[@theCosmicQueen]

of course it wasn't a stigmata. it was something that emotionally bothered him. A messenger of satan- some evil spirit , that plagued him.

[@grantdewet7465]

Modern day theologians take men of antiquity for monkeys. Paul was an astute, educated, rational SANE man. For him to have lived the horrid life he did, for an "apparition" holds no water I'm afraid. What he saw was real.

[@1968Mcneil]

Then maybe Paul was gay, that was a condenation under the law, then he invented a new way of salvation that explain his misquoting of the old testament to convince the others that grace was enough.

[@RealUvane]

Sounds like Paul was initiated to a Mars rite (since he had been pierced) and possessed by these demons. And then he was looking for healing from it from a Jesus/Uranus type Angel.

[@bludgeoncorpinc.6768]

I tend to believe it was a Pluto Angel.

[@RealUvane]

@@bludgeoncorpinc.6768 yes. Could be. I see Hades and Pluto as a dead end street where the Luciferian Mars Prometheus “believers” usually ends up after death. Jesus core message is actually how to not end up there by way of an inflated intellectual ideology one can carry in life. And contrary Jesus describes how to come back home to the garden of Adam, the Orion Nebula, where our sun was “born”. M42 its called. You need that gold(Manna) to get there. Frankincense and Myrrh helps to.

[@RealUvane]

Im also pretty sure that Paul was a Phrygian, descendants of the infamous Pelasgians in the Aegean sea, and he converted to or adopted judeaism from the Zargos mountains or even from the Siwa Oasis of Khnum the desert storm god. Both are Ares cults derived from the Prometheus cult. Aka Ammon HaShem Shamash Seth Typhon Mithras. These cults spearheaded the Iron Age. So Pauls new religion was made from greco-egyptian Hermes trismegistus (Freemasonic/Israelite) traditions and the judean John the Baptizer Mars (Templar) monotheism.

[@andrelewis5760]

Nah it was a witness of death against him he persecuted believers thorn represents curse of those you let live when you where tasked with a mission, yehusha said Saul Saul why thou killest me ? When he was on the road to Damascus to kill Yacov or James the just. They didn't see believers when persecuting them they seen Mashiach we are his body. When we see him we will be as he is a change form. This is what Paul experienced walk in the light(understanding) for he is in the light and in him is no darkness, (misunderstanding) why was it unspeakable because darkness doesn't understand the light and therefore would hold up as a proper witness but as hearse Paul was converted from persecuting to witnessing. He would have a law price to pay if he would of said the things he seen and it would of witness against him which it does he reminded Thorn In the side

[@Thomasw540]

Paul was as queer as a three dollar bill. In a later age, he would be a South Beach drag queen right out of Les Cage aux Folles. His thorn in the flesh was his hunger for young men like John Mark, who probably bailed out of the mission with Barnabas and Paul because Paul was hitting on him. The circumcision of Timothy is a same-sex marriage ceremony peculiar to the Greek culture. I lack the qualifications to judge whether Paul was the author of Thessalonians, Colossians , Ephesians or Titus, but the two Epistles to Timothy seem to me to be perfectly characteristic of chatty domestic notes to a long time companion. It wasn't intended to be circulated but were internal instructions to his support staff. In contrast to Hebrews, Paul and the other Epistles are trying to created the New Wins Skin for the New Wine of Jesus from the old Wine Skin of the triangulation of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. N.T. Wright explores this process to my satisfaction and represents the dialectic Idealism emerging from the Post Modern Historic Deconstruction of the 60s, in contrast to the dialectical Marxism of Dr. Tabor. I generally find Paul unconvincing. In contrast, The Letter to the Hebrews constructs its new Wine Skin for the New Wine of Jesus from the triangulation of Melchizedek, Jesus and Matthew 8:10, which is the moment Christianity emerges in the Gospels. For this reason, I tend to associate the author of Hebrews with Theophilus, who was the Bishop of the Roman Christian Fellowship in the Roman Army. Dr. Tabor's deconstruction of Paul's writing is the product of a disordered mind or a supremely discipline mind trying to trying to create a heliocentric universe from a geocentric premise. His intuition that the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Joh are entwined narratives is the most constructive direction he can take his scholarship in the closing light of his career: he is exactly correct but needs to abandon his 60s radical critical historic method of dialectical Marxism and adopt the critical literary method of Hegel's Historic Gestalt and dialectical synthesis. To deny the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sine and John Dominick Crossan's Jesus Seminar is predicated on that denial. The Holy Spirit saturates the Gospels and Acts. Paul was as queer as a three dollar bill. i a later time, he would be a South Beach drag queen right out of Les Cage aux Folles. His thorn in the flesh was his hunger for young men like John Mark, who probably bailed out of the mission with Barnabas and Paul because Paul was hitting on him. The circumcision of Timothy is a same-sex marriage ceremony peculiar to the Greek culture. I lack the qualifications to judge whether Paul was the author of Thessalonians, Colossians , Ephesians or Titus, but the two Epistles to Timothy seem to me to be perfectly characteristic of chatty domestic notes to a long time companion. It wasn't intended to be circulated but were internal instructions to his support staff. In contrast to Hebrews, Paul and the other Epistles are trying to created the New Wins Skin for the New Wine of Jesus from the old Wine Skin of the triangulation of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. N.T. Wright explores this process to my satisfaction and represents the dialectic Idealism emerging from the Post Modern Historic Deconstruction of the 60s, in contrast to the dialectical Marxism of Dr. Tabor. I generally find Paul unconvincing. In contrast, The Letter to the Hebrews constructs its new Wine Skin for the New Wine of Jesus from the triangulation of Melchizedek, Jesus and Matthew 8:10, which is the moment Christianity emerges in the Gospels. For this reason, I tend to associate the author of Hebrews with Theophilus, who was the Bishop of the Roman Christian Fellowship in the Roman Army. Dr. Tabor's deconstruction of Paul's writing is the disordered product or a supremely discipline mind trying to create a heliocentric universe from a geocentric premise. On the other hand, His intuition that the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Joh are entwined narratives is the most constructive direction he can take his scholarship in the waning light of his career: he is exactly correct but needs to abandon his 60s critical historic method of dialectical Marxism of his radical student days and adopt the critical literary method of Hegel's Historic Gestalt and dialectical synthesis. To deny the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sine and John Dominick Crossan's Jesus Seminar is predicated on that denial. The Holy Spirit saturates the Gospels and Acts.

[@antonius3745]

Paul did never convert in the first place! He had a revelation of Gods presence and not of Jesus.

[@justblazenone]

Paul’s bodily affliction was most likely circumcision. It’s a hot topic all throughout the Bible

[@stevenv6463]

So the community that bore with his problem was bearing with his circumcision?

[@andrelewis5760]

Nah it was a witness of death against him he persecuted believers thorn represents curse of those you let live when you where tasked with a mission, yehusha said Saul Saul why thou killest me ? When he was on the road to Damascus to kill Yacov or James the just. They didn't see believers when persecuting them they seen Mashiach we are his body. When we see him we will be as he is a change form. This is what Paul experienced walk in the light(understanding) for he is in the light and in him is no darkness, (misunderstanding) why was it unspeakable because darkness doesn't understand the light and therefore would hold up as a proper witness but as hearse Paul was converted from persecuting to witnessing. He would have a law price to pay if he would of said the things he seen and it would of witness against him which it does he reminded Thorn In the side

[@rafaelbatista5452]

There is nothing to learn from someone that tells you to drift away from the Torah. That's Paul.

[@rafaelbatista5452]

@fanabudrogh9241 Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

[@AnisElias]

@@rafaelbatista5452that’s only Mathew. The other gospel writers did not have that same viewpoint

[@rafaelbatista5452]

@@AnisElias The gospels are Yeshua's words, not the writers words, or point of view., The foundation of the gospel is in the law given to Moses, if you don't have foundation your house will drift away and great will be the destruction of that house .

[@rafaelbatista5452]

@@AnisElias That's blasphemy against the holy spirit,. That's not truth.

[@mukhlimkurowo]

@@rafaelbatista5452 all gospels were written by unknown authors. dont argue, just check it to cristian scholars

[@elizabeth_777]

I have the distinct feeling Paul may have been homosexual. Not trying to start a controversial dialogue in KZbin comments, but he may have been in a relationship with a woman but in love with a man, or some such thing, and was privately tormented with his sexual tendencies within Judaism, and not so much in the Roman world. re: Thorn in Paul’s side🤓