Paulcast Gail was difficult to deal with

[@TTM9691]

I appreciate everything you're saying. At the end of the day, everyone were just people in their 20s and their 30s, making it up as they went along, trying to deal with impossible situations. I've never understood the vitriol fans directed at her. She ran the biz exactly as he would have. With an iron fist and tight grip. You don't see his music in commercials. The archival releases never stopped, which has always been appreciated. If Frank was alive, he'd not be happy with streaming and his revenue streams being severely cut into. You were in an impossible situation, she was in an impossible situation.... how could she trust anybody? What you wrote about how she mothered Moon Unit, that makes me love her. Wow. Brilliant. In 1969. But I'm on Team Pauline as well, and I wish you didn't have to deal with all the palace intrigue! 🤣

[@paulinebutcherbird]

The vitriol Gail received after Frank died I think was partly justified. For her to stop people playing Frank's music was absurd. How else would the fan base expand? As a result, one is hard-pushed to find anyone under 40 years of age who has heard of Frank Zappa. Try it in non-musical circles as I have done and I get answers like 'Was he one of the Grateful Dead?

[@TTM9691]

@@paulinebutcherbird I agree that stopping musicians from playing Frank's work was CRAZY. And what happened to the family is heartbreaking. However, I'm here in NYC and The School of Rock has done all Zappa concerts. That's kids doing it, I helped promote one of the shows. My friend's kids LOVE Zappa. They're obsessed with him. And you can find videos of kids playing The Black Page and all kinds of stuff. I used to rehearse at a studio and someone had a copy of The Black Page nailed to the wall. It might be different in Great Britain, to be fair, but I think Zappa's fan base continues to grow, given the age of the music at this point, how long he's been gone, and how avant garde the material is.

[@TTM9691]

@@paulinebutcherbird PS.....but point taken! lol. (Well, thanks Pauline! I've had a fun and fascinating couple of hours exploring your channel. Going to read the book and will report back. In the meantime, thank you for sharing these insights and these precious memories).

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@TTM9691 I'm so pleased and heartened to hear this news that young musicians are playing Frank's music and loving it. As I say his presence continues among musicians but whether it will spread widely I'm less sure, but I like your enthusiasm. I should pick up some of it.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Regarding the palace intrigue, for most of it, I pass. Over to you.

[@geinikan1kan]

I've listened to Ms. Butcher speak a few times now, what an insight into an artist I mostly knew thru his music and public pronouncements. Delightful and insightful. You bring the master down to earth for all of us.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Geinikan1kan, that is very nice of you to say. It sounds like you haven't read the book which I think brings more insight into Frank's world.

[@rantoolio]

To get a Gail perspective read "Earth to Moon" by Moon Zappa.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Excuse me, but that is one perspective. Moon has been devastated since her mother's death by Gail's actions with the inheritance, banning Moon and Dweezil from ZFT and leaving her 20% instead of 25%. Before that, Moon was always at the house. There were good times, but because Moon covers 50 years (compared with three years in my book) she has had to concentrate on the drama and leave out the happy times and there were happy and fun times. I think Frank and Gail would be shocked by Moon's book because they both believed they were good parents.

[@rantoolio]

@@paulinebutcherbird I believe Moon's depiction of her life growing up with Frank and Gail. She is an intelligent grown woman, a mother herself.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@rantoolio There is no reason not to believe Moon's depiction of her life growing up. I am concerned that readers who did not know them are gaining the impression that Frank and Gail were dreadful parents. They weren't. Consider Moon, at 14 years of age, on Letterman, where viewers assumed she was years older, and admired her extraordinary poise and confidence. That came from the goodwill from her parents during her childhood. Admittedly, Moon writes of being a crumbling mess inside when she was on Letterman, but that poise could not be manufactured.

[@rantoolio]

@@paulinebutcherbird Moon lived it. Why would she lie ? Why would Gail blow off Frank's will & wishes for the family & pit the kids against each other ? A good mom teaching the kids a lesson ? All seem to be doing fine. Moon put in the work to feel better & figure it out. I enjoyed the book. It felt real. That's all.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@rantoolio Whoever said Moon was lying? Please read my words correctly. I have just re-read the final words of Moon's in her book in which she mentions the good times with her parents and siblings and acknowledges that they had their own journey and pain. It's very moving and brought me almost to tears. I wish readers to acknowledge that somewhere in that story, there were good times. Moon's parents thought they were doing a good job.

[@troutmask6800]

According to Moon in her new memoir, her mother was a raging monster. Pauline only dealt with her from 1967-1971. I’m not clear how her other children felt about her, but Moon certainly had a tough time with her.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

I'm reading Moon's book at present and have yet to reach Gail's death. Moon certainly had a hard time, but you know the eldest child of families with many children often has a hard time as they are expected to help parent the others. Of course, Moon had an especially hard time because her mother suffered throughout her marriage with Frank's womanising and on two occasions told Gail he wanted a divorce. Moon does not explain how these situations were resolved because in the next chapter Frank and Gail are back together in every sense, sex and business. So there was this constant upheaval, unhappiness, screaming and shouting and frightening scenes. It's a paradox, that Moon appeared confident and adjusted when she appeared on Letterman but she writes in the book that she was a blithering wreck underneath. I am convinced that if Frank had been a devoted husband that Gail would not have been cruel either.

[@keriford54]

There was a recent discussion between Ahmet & Moon and it was clear that Ahmet also had a hard time with Gail.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@keriford54 I don't know about Ahmet as he was born after I left when Moon was four and Dweezil a baby. Ahmet grew up through the most difficult years of Frank and Gail's marriage when, according to Moon, Frank asked Gail for a divorce twice and it's not clear if this was with the same woman! I try to imagine the gut-wrenching pain that Gail went through on each of these occasions and when Frank brought women home and yet each time, Frank succumbed and as Gail said, after each of their upheavals, a new baby was born. It's easy to forget the early years. Here's my description of Gail and Moon together: ;Dweezil still slept in sizeable chunks but Moon, with whom I had a neat little relationship and for whom I’d developed a real fondness, would keep going all night. Gail always sided with her, no matter how foolish her desires or how outrageous her needs. She treated her little daughter as an adult, listening to her opinions with apparent seriousness and pretending to be guided by them. As a result, Moon interrupted whenever she pleased, contradicted and put Gail in her place, and Gail would simply laugh and praise her spirit.'

[@pop_o_matic]

My wife worked for Gail for a while in the early 2000’s. She would come home crying almost every day.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Why?

[@pop_o_matic]

@@paulinebutcherbird She said Gail could be really particular and expected her to be a mind reader. Once my wife was asked to organize up at the house and she said it was a hoarder-style situation up there. Like there were papers and crap stacked everywhere with cat pee and feces on around it. When she did attempt to organize an area she got yelled at for moving something that she wasn’t supposed to which wasn’t relayed to her in advance. Then Gail could turn around and be really nice for a second and five minutes later be back to coldness.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@pop_o_matic That fits with my description of Gail which I describe in my book as discussed in this video. Of course, your wife met her during Gail's worst period, after Frank died, whereas I knew Gail in the beginning of her marriage when she and Frank were new to fame and she was a softer character. However, the same characteristics you describe were there, hot and cold so that you never knew for sure if you were her friend or not. We would fight like scratchy cats and the next minute, Gail would be at my door suggesting we go shopping together. In her bedroom, her wardrobe was the floor, and the house was a tip, as you describe, and then suddenly, she would have a purge and everything would be shi[p-shape so that Frank remarked, 'the house now looks like a home.[

[@pop_o_matic]

@@paulinebutcherbird My wife worked there a little less than a year and had enough. When she left Gail remarked how much she liked her and would always give a good reference. I think the thing with Gail, when you work for her, you are signing on for her abuse. Also little things i remember that rubbed me the wrong way like Gail had my wife get the good 3 ply toilet paper for the house and her kids’ places but then to buy only the cheapest one ply for the workers at the ICA office. She got yelled at once for buying good tp for the office. I am a huge Zappa fan and got to visit ICA/Barking Pumpkin but never went to the house because of Gail. I didn’t want her to ruin my impression of Frank. I always find your interviews fascinating, Pauline. Thanks for speaking openly about it. I must buy your book asap.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@pop_o_matic Thank you, and I hope your wife, too, would be interested in reading it as she will recognise exactly the problems I had with Gail right back at the beginning of their story.

[@djhoneylove5710]

There are a lot of different opinions when it comes to Gail, plus people change. Gail had to be a strong lady. It was not easy being Frank Zappas wife, and she kept the family business going despite her caustic relationships. It seems like she had no one to lean on and took frustrations out on her children and employees. Frank, in his autobiography, spoke of her with great respect and admiration.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Indeed. Somehow, they stayed together, he chasing after her when she did a run, and she to tolerate his perpetual liaisons with other women.

[@patrickcosgrove886]

Several other sources have described Gail Zappa as very difficult to deal with.

[@BobPagani]

The people at Rykodisc certainly thought so.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Indeed, most of all her daughter, Moon Unit!

[@BobPagani]

@@paulinebutcherbird There's a video on YT for the 40th anniversary of "Valley Girl" in which Moon speaks extensively about Gail and the difficulties she had with her.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@BobPagani Do you hgave the URL for that?

[@BobPagani]

@@paulinebutcherbird Here you go, Pauline: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJXTq4Caq5era7M

[@Carrie-v2q]

Was she using drugs? Her behavior seemed very unstable and extreme. It's common with narcissistic people to have some kind of addiction

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Thank you for your comment but unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, Gail was never on drugs. No one in the house was allowed drugs, band members were not allowed to show any signs of drug-taking on stage, because Frank, our taskmaster, did not allow drugs in the house. She became more unstable the longer she stayed with Frank and his other women she had to put up with, make friends with and bury her pain.

[@Carrie-v2q]

@paulinebutcherbird that's really unfortunate. Because at the end of the day it hurt Moon. I just finished reading her biography and my heart goes out to her. It probably would have been best if they had divorced. At least for the kids.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@Carrie-v2q Here. on KZbin, kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnKVkGqIl56Umtk is my interview with Frank in 1988, five years before he died. In it he mentions that Moon was always at the house. If it was always traumatic, don't you think Moon would have avoided going to the house? The trouble is, everything changed Moon's perspective after Gail died when Gail unfairly apportioned her will, and it was this that made Moon focus on all the hurt stuff and leave out, over 50 years, all the supportive stuff. I encourage you to read Moon's novel, America the Beautiful which is a disguised portrait of Frank and Gail. In that, you will see that although Gail constantly irritated Moon, they had a workable relationship and the pain is hardly mentioned.

[@Carrie-v2q]

@@paulinebutcherbird people who have been traumatized often are stuck in the freeze and fawn stages. You are conflicted and confused about what to do in a traumatic environment. So it makes sense that she was at the house a lot. She has PTSD and people who have it their brains are wired differently. Decision making is difficult and the part of your brain responsible for basic functioning is highjacked. She was probably operating in a dissociated state.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

@@Carrie-v2q An interesting analysis, but in a disassociated state for 50 years?

[@awrogers3013]

We’ll you know why obviously…

[@maxsno]

Surprised after many examples of FZ fraudulent face of being above the raging masses of his adoring consumers .

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Do you mean you're surprised that Frank Zappa was unfaithful?

[@cornucopiaofcool2144]

Well sure the guy who sings "Ram it ram it ram it up your poop chute" might just have a difficult relationship with his WIFE. No decent Woman wants to hear that . Also, Frank was NOT POPULAR amongst his peers. In fact, he was voted least liked Classic Rock Musician by a recent poll in AARP. Sure, you can act like FZ didn't care but I'm not buying that. If he could have been successful as GRAND FUNK he woulda loved it. Instead, he took a picture sitting on a Toilet. GOOD JOB FRANK!

[@paulinebutcherbird]

I'm aware, and have written a great deal on Zappa pages on social media about Frank's appalling lyrics, especially Bamboozled by Love, Magdalena, and Enema Bandit and how they are difficult to square with the man in person who was more like a monk. He spoke quietly, he was polite, he would listen carefully to what you had to say, and respond to it in a measured way. Who wants to hear those lyrics at a concert? Trouble is, I imagine many of his fans are drawn in by these lyrics, and Frank was aware of that, knowing, as you point out, that his music was not of the popular kind. Nevertheless, within his field, as you can see on videos from his concerts on YT, he was a master.

[@guitarista67]

Sounds like one of my heroes treated his wife like utter shit. Knocked my admiration for him way down. What a disappointment to learn this in my 50s.

[@paulinebutcherbird]

Maybe you can modify for view of Frank Zappa again. Yes, Frank was a womaniser but it's hardly rare. Look at the other side. Frank trusted Gail to run his business for him, and he said she was his best friend. In his own book, published late 1980s, he said, 'I met Gail and I fell in love.' There was a strong bond between them because Gail decided to hang in there and keep the family together. So do bear in mind, Frank was not a complete horror of a husband as many men are.